Guest guest Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 Oh, I wish for the best of both systems. I confess that I don't know everything I should about the Canadian way. It seems to me that you guys do a better job of spreading the care around to everyone. It seems to me that we do a better job of getting the care to those who have jobs that cover their troubles, and in the way that we choose. But we also provide it, too often, in the least efficient and most costly manner -- folks who get their usual medical care in emergency rooms, for example, because they cannot pay for regular visits to primary health care providers. What I want is a system that manages to give the most excellent care to the greatest number of folks, notwithstanding what their employers provide. With the greatest convenience and efficiency to all, of course. I am totally split about the rest of how things work. I know that doctors work sooo hard here... But I think they also limit their numbers, so that they can be part of that elite who make major bucks. I would not want to have a doc in my family; I've seen how hard they do go at it. And I cherish every one who takes care of me and my small family. But I wish they'd ease up a bit, be more rested and at ease when they're working, and have salaries more in line with the rest of us. On the other hand, I also want access to excellent care, and instantly, when there's an emergency. I would be(and will be, and have been) most happy, though, to welcome the care from anyone recruited by any of my many docs to " cover " in an emergency and spare my professionals the time to rest, regain their equipoise and enjoy life with their families -- which I think many U.S. docs sacrifice to maintain their availability to their patients. I believe that I get better care when my docs also care for their emotional and physical functioning. I grieve for the poorest among us here in the U.S., old and young, who have no voice in establishing these choices. There are truly cruel stipulations, which I detest. I am also one who questions spending megabucks to save a person -- infant or oldster -- whose quality of life will predictably be low, just for the sake of prolonging things. I know of one instance in which an infant, born prematurely, spent at least 2.5 years in intensive neuro-natal care unit, with no hope of an able life. I shudder to think what that money could have done to provide prenatal care for thousands of other children. My own mom went through open heart surgery which she wanted, and I would not have denied her, but which provided miserable quality of life for about a year after the operation. She had good and bad times, and I still question which outweighed the other. It was her choice, and I went with her there, not knowing, still, whether to have regrets. End of sermon. Cammie > One minute you're complaining about braces next minute you're rubbing > it in to the Americans on this site about our health care system ... > > Dude, i think those braces are on too tight. ;-) > > By the way, I'm an Albertan - we pay all those transfer dollars to > your province so you too can have nice health care... I have no > problem it, but there is no reason to gloat and make our fellow > Americans envious... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 I agree with some of the things that you say, Cammie. I think the optimal system would involve some elements of the public health care system where anyone who needs care will have access to it. But I also like the fact that I can pay out of pocket and choose the doc I want and get care in a fast and efficient manner. I have seen a number of reports about Canadians with cancer who are unable to get care or some diagnostic tests in a timely manner. Also, having grown up in a country with much-loaded universal healthcare, I saw all the drawbacks of it first hand. The only way to get quality care for you was to pay the doc under the table. I do disagree with you about doctors' salaries. As you said yourself, you see how hard they work. Plus, don't forget about that $200,000 debt for medical/dental school they have when they're done with schooling. Who on earth would want to become a doctor if they're compensated just as the rest of us? They work their asses off, they have tons of responsibility on their hands, their schooling takes enourmous amounts of time compared to other professions. Why be a doctor if you can't at least have a nice lifestyle in exchange for having no life outside of work? This topic is dear to my heart since my husband is a medical resident. There is not a day goes by that we don't wonder if he should stay in medicine. Most people who go into medicine are very smart, and could easily do something else if they chose to. Same with my husband - he was a computer programmer before med school. If doctor's salaries went down to be comparable with that of a programmer, guess what? He'd be a programmer. It's just easier, especially when you have a wife and a kid. Don't get me wrong, doctors love patient care. But they also make a lot of sacrifices, and they need to be compansated for it. And when they're not adequately compansated, you either don't have enough docs, or those that you do have are low quality (experienced first hand in the universal healthcare system). I also agree with you about questioning the need of heroic efforts to save some very sick premature babies or elderly. However, it is not always up to us. I have a couple of elderly sick relatives who have undergone expensive treatments. But in their cases, they requested it. Ok, time to go to work... Take care everyone. > > One minute you're complaining about braces next minute you're > rubbing > > it in to the Americans on this site about our health care system ... > > > > Dude, i think those braces are on too tight. ;-) > > > > By the way, I'm an Albertan - we pay all those transfer dollars to > > your province so you too can have nice health care... I have no > > problem it, but there is no reason to gloat and make our fellow > > Americans envious... > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Rakushka, you got to the post before me, and I think you put it more eloquently than I could. Good luck to your family, and your husband. I think doctors deserve much respect. Thanks! ~Cathy Re: Let's go to Utopia... I agree with some of the things that you say, Cammie. I think the optimal system would involve some elements of the public health care system where anyone who needs care will have access to it. But I also like the fact that I can pay out of pocket and choose the doc I want and get care in a fast and efficient manner. I have seen a number of reports about Canadians with cancer who are unable to get care or some diagnostic tests in a timely manner. Also, having grown up in a country with much-loaded universal healthcare, I saw all the drawbacks of it first hand. The only way to get quality care for you was to pay the doc under the table. I do disagree with you about doctors' salaries. As you said yourself, you see how hard they work. Plus, don't forget about that $200,000 debt for medical/dental school they have when they're done with schooling. Who on earth would want to become a doctor if they're compensated just as the rest of us? They work their asses off, they have tons of responsibility on their hands, their schooling takes enourmous amounts of time compared to other professions. Why be a doctor if you can't at least have a nice lifestyle in exchange for having no life outside of work? This topic is dear to my heart since my husband is a medical resident. There is not a day goes by that we don't wonder if he should stay in medicine. Most people who go into medicine are very smart, and could easily do something else if they chose to. Same with my husband - he was a computer programmer before med school. If doctor's salaries went down to be comparable with that of a programmer, guess what? He'd be a programmer. It's just easier, especially when you have a wife and a kid. Don't get me wrong, doctors love patient care. But they also make a lot of sacrifices, and they need to be compansated for it. And when they're not adequately compansated, you either don't have enough docs, or those that you do have are low quality (experienced first hand in the universal healthcare system). I also agree with you about questioning the need of heroic efforts to save some very sick premature babies or elderly. However, it is not always up to us. I have a couple of elderly sick relatives who have undergone expensive treatments. But in their cases, they requested it. Ok, time to go to work... Take care everyone. > > One minute you're complaining about braces next minute you're > rubbing > > it in to the Americans on this site about our health care system ... > > > > Dude, i think those braces are on too tight. ;-) > > > > By the way, I'm an Albertan - we pay all those transfer dollars to > > your province so you too can have nice health care... I have no > > problem it, but there is no reason to gloat and make our fellow > > Americans envious... > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 I doubt that either of us is going to solve this one... But you say: " I do disagree with you about doctors' salaries. As you said yourself, you see how hard they work. Plus, don't forget about that $200,000 debt for medical/dental school they have when they're done with schooling. Who on earth would want to become a doctor if they're compensated just as the rest of us? They work their asses off, they have tons of responsibility on their hands, their schooling takes enourmous amounts of time compared to other professions.' Nobody can change the responsibilities, of course, and I agree they are enormous. But so are those of a nurse, or a day care provider, for that matter... And training? Ask a college prof how many years of expensive training went into grad school in any subject... As for how hard they work: Yes, they do. And they bring training and skill to their work. But honestly, don't you think it would be better for everybody if they would share the load (and the money) with more folks with training? I don't know about you, but I'd just as soon not be treated by, say, an intern who's been working 90 hours (or more) a week for the past six months. Nor by a cardiac surgeon who's been on his feet for the past 36 hours, for that matter. Train more docs -- Am I mistaken in thinking that there are plenty of bright folks out there who would like to go to med school, and could go, if they could afford it and there were the slots for them? I will gladly see one of my primary physician's partners, any time, so that they can distribute the load in a way such as to give all of them decent time with their families and friends, or for reading a novel, or whatever. I think it's important to everyone to have time for refreshment of the soul and the skills. I do know that malpractice insurance is outrageous. I think that should be remedied, but I don't know how. I also know that the doctors who treat me do up to a fourth (and perhaps more) of their practice as write-off business, caring for folks who can't pay. I guess I'm too idealistic. I do know that my docs enjoy the lifestyle and the security. But I like to think that they're in medical practice not just because it's lucrative, and that if they had as much personal satisfaction being computer programmers, that's what they'd be doing. No slams meant against your husband. I'm sure he is admirable, self-sacrificing and generous. But I live in a state where, for instance, it is not uncommon for charitable dental clinics (when poor kids have access to them) to put steel crowns all across a child's baby teeth to preserve them. Because they can't afford regular dental treatment. Braces are no fun, but can you imagine what that does to a 5-year-old kid, to have a real metal mouth like that? Also where many poor and uninsured folks get their primary medical care in emergency rooms -- which I think I've read is the very most expensive and least efficient way to do it. I do believe we need some changes. Apparently neither I, who have studied all this litte, nor Mrs. Clinton, who brought her best brains and the resources of many experts, have come up with the answer. Sadly, neither has anybody else that I know of. And yessm. I particularly appreciate that when something deadly threatening comes up, our docs can move heaven and earth to get it tended to. I have been the beneficiary of that, and am more grateful than I can tell you! Best, Cammie > I agree with some of the things that you say, Cammie. I think the > optimal system would involve some elements of the public health care > system where anyone who needs care will have access to it. But I > also like the fact that I can pay out of pocket and choose the doc I > want and get care in a fast and efficient manner. I have seen a > number of reports about Canadians with cancer who are unable to get > care or some diagnostic tests in a timely manner. Also, having grown > up in a country with much-loaded universal healthcare, I saw all the > drawbacks of it first hand. The only way to get quality care for you > was to pay the doc under the table. > > I do disagree with you about doctors' salaries. As you said > yourself, you see how hard they work. Plus, don't forget about that > $200,000 debt for medical/dental school they have when they're done > with schooling. Who on earth would want to become a doctor if > they're compensated just as the rest of us? They work their asses > off, they have tons of responsibility on their hands, their schooling > takes enourmous amounts of time compared to other professions. Why > be a doctor if you can't at least have a nice lifestyle in exchange > for having no life outside of work? This topic is dear to my heart > since my husband is a medical resident. There is not a day goes by > that we don't wonder if he should stay in medicine. Most people who > go into medicine are very smart, and could easily do something else > if they chose to. Same with my husband - he was a computer > programmer before med school. If doctor's salaries went down to be > comparable with that of a programmer, guess what? He'd be a > programmer. It's just easier, especially when you have a wife and a > kid. Don't get me wrong, doctors love patient care. But they also > make a lot of sacrifices, and they need to be compansated for it. > And when they're not adequately compansated, you either don't have > enough docs, or those that you do have are low quality (experienced > first hand in the universal healthcare system). > > I also agree with you about questioning the need of heroic efforts to > save some very sick premature babies or elderly. However, it is not > always up to us. I have a couple of elderly sick relatives who have > undergone expensive treatments. But in their cases, they requested > it. > > Ok, time to go to work... > Take care everyone. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Nobody respects doctors more than I do, Cathy. (At least the good ones, which most of them are. There are a few bad apples I've encountered, and I'll spare you what I'd do with them. But such is the case always, everywhere.) I am deeply in the debt of about a dozen of them, and if any one of 'em called me right now and said, " I need a can of Pepsi at the local hospital (or anywhere else) at 2 a.m. Will you do it? " I would answer, " Yes -- do you want diet or regular? " and move heaven and earth to have it there on time... Cammie > > > One minute you're complaining about braces next minute you're > > rubbing > > > it in to the Americans on this site about our health care > system ... > > > > > > Dude, i think those braces are on too tight. ;-) > > > > > > By the way, I'm an Albertan - we pay all those transfer dollars > to > > > your province so you too can have nice health care... I have no > > > problem it, but there is no reason to gloat and make our fellow > > > Americans envious... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 I don't know that we really have a doc shortage. A great number of people are being trained abroad, and docs are encouraged to come to the U.S. from other countries (as long as the can pass the qualifying exams). The other thing that most docs are located in suburban areas, and not many want to go work in rural areas, where they are really needed. Many of the problems that you describe are related to our health care system, not the docs. And as far as responsibility is concerned: a nurse or anyone else does not have as much responsibility as a doc. Have you ever seen a nurse sued in a malpractice case? The doc is the captain of the ship, so to speak. I would expect my OS to take full responsibility for my care. He is the one who's responsible for my final outcome, not a nurse at the hospital (even if she screws up and pumps me up with the wrong medication). And btw, a college professor has less years of training (4 years BS and about 5 years Ph D, compare that to 4 years bach + 4 years med school + at least 3 years residency). Also, college professors don't pay for their graduate education - it is usually paid for by research grants. Of course, docs are in it for personal satisfation. That's why my husband went to med school. However, personal satisfaction does not cut it when you consider the whole picture: a kid to support, mortgage and outrageous bills to pay. You can pay the docs less when you take away the costs of med school and some of the responsibility. In the current environment, it is impossible, and is forcing more and more docs out of business. > I doubt that either of us is going to solve this one... > > But you say: > > " I do disagree with you about doctors' salaries. As you said > yourself, you see how hard they work. Plus, don't forget about that > $200,000 debt for medical/dental school they have when they're done > with schooling. Who on earth would want to become a doctor if > they're compensated just as the rest of us? They work their asses > off, they have tons of responsibility on their hands, their schooling > takes enourmous amounts of time compared to other professions.' > > Nobody can change the responsibilities, of course, and I agree they > are enormous. But so are those of a nurse, or a day care provider, > for that matter... And training? Ask a college prof how many years of > expensive training went into grad school in any subject... > > As for how hard they work: Yes, they do. And they bring training and > skill to their work. But honestly, don't you think it would be better > for everybody if they would share the load (and the money) with more > folks with training? I don't know about you, but I'd just as soon not > be treated by, say, an intern who's been working 90 hours (or more) a > week for the past six months. Nor by a cardiac surgeon who's been on > his feet for the past 36 hours, for that matter. Train more docs -- > Am I mistaken in thinking that there are plenty of bright folks out > there who would like to go to med school, and could go, if they could > afford it and there were the slots for them? > > I will gladly see one of my primary physician's partners, any time, > so that they can distribute the load in a way such as to give all of > them decent time with their families and friends, or for reading a > novel, or whatever. I think it's important to everyone to have time > for refreshment of the soul and the skills. > > I do know that malpractice insurance is outrageous. I think that > should be remedied, but I don't know how. > > I also know that the doctors who treat me do up to a fourth (and > perhaps more) of their practice as write-off business, caring for > folks who can't pay. > > I guess I'm too idealistic. I do know that my docs enjoy the > lifestyle and the security. But I like to think that they're in > medical practice not just because it's lucrative, and that if they > had as much personal satisfaction being computer programmers, that's > what they'd be doing. No slams meant against your husband. I'm sure > he is admirable, self-sacrificing and generous. > > But I live in a state where, for instance, it is not uncommon for > charitable dental clinics (when poor kids have access to them) to put > steel crowns all across a child's baby teeth to preserve them. > Because they can't afford regular dental treatment. Braces are no > fun, but can you imagine what that does to a 5-year-old kid, to have > a real metal mouth like that? > > Also where many poor and uninsured folks get their primary medical > care in emergency rooms -- which I think I've read is the very most > expensive and least efficient way to do it. > > I do believe we need some changes. Apparently neither I, who have > studied all this litte, nor Mrs. Clinton, who brought her best brains > and the resources of many experts, have come up with the answer. > Sadly, neither has anybody else that I know of. > > And yessm. I particularly appreciate that when something deadly > threatening comes up, our docs can move heaven and earth to get it > tended to. I have been the beneficiary of that, and am more grateful > than I can tell you! > > Best, > > Cammie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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