Re: Please allow me this post

[Guest guest]

Martha, I understand what you are saying here. I

understand that you might be angry and hurt about what

has happened. We were made with emotions and

sensitivity. With this being said and without taking

anything from the support that Francisco is receiving.

Its a great feeling to know that people are going to

stand up for you but we must also exercise compassion

and FORGIVENESS. I mean if we can't give that to

someone then how can we expect it when we have fallen

short...

Sometimes you just have to forgiven even when it has

not been asked for. It frees you even though we might

think it is to free the other person. We don't want

this...well, let me speak for myself....I don't want

this to become a place where if someone makes a

mistake (no matter whose eyes it might appear to wrong

in) that they have to leave or no longer feel welcome

and it it my personal opinion (does not make me right

neither wrong) that this is exactly how Rory might be

feeling.

I am not taking sides with anyone rather reminding and

reflecting that when everything around you has

crumbled as it sometimes does, we have to learn to

pick up the pieces..one by one and continue...thats

the only way we are going to make it.

Just a thought...

Pam Marsh

--- nursefera2 nurseferatu@...> wrote:

> Regarding the recent unpleasantness...Please allow

> me this post.

>

> My sense is that, like most of us who've removed our

> fat suits,

> Francisco is going through a period where he feels

> like his skin is

> peeled off. Nevertheless he is a man of fairness and

> generosity. I

> think he can tell when someone has good intentions,

> even if what they

> say comes out poorly. I tend to trust his judgement

> about people and I

> consider him a close friend.

>

> This is the second beloved friend of mine who has

> been driven off this

> list because she/he didn't feel safe here. In both

> cases, someone from

> this list sent hurtful emails to her/his private

> email address,

> criticizing that person's personal life.

>

> Given what I said above about Francisco's judgement,

> I am reluctant to

> let Rory off the hook. Yes, I read Rory's apology

> and denial. But now

> some people are scrambling to apologize for the

> heated things they

> said about the attacker. We fat girls are so ready

> to apologize for

> any time we stand up... and I don't think you should

> in this case.

>

> The strong words that people used here were

> addressed to an ANONYMOUS

> bully and were a reflection of how much they love

> Francisco. I expect

> Rory to understand that, to know that people do

> appreciate his

> positive contributions, and not exploit the

> situation to portray

> himself as the victim here.

>

> Sincerely,

> Martha

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I have to chime in here Martha and agree with you 100%. Francisco

has the most loving caring heart and I cannot fathom that some one

would hurt him so deeply. You are right in that most of the angry

posts were said before we knew who it was. Knowing who it is

however, does not change how I feel about what happened. Rory had no

right to email Francisco and express his opinion of his posts.

Nothing good could have been intended by it...he had to know he

would be hurting him. Now he is trying to play the misunderstood

victim and Ive had enough of him doing this to people and then

playing victim. As long as he is part of this group...I am not. I

will be available by private email to my friends on this group. Im

sorry but I have personal history with Rory and will not be hurt by

him anymore...even its through my friends.

> Regarding the recent unpleasantness...Please allow me this post.

>

> My sense is that, like most of us who've removed our fat suits,

> Francisco is going through a period where he feels like his skin is

> peeled off. Nevertheless he is a man of fairness and generosity. I

> think he can tell when someone has good intentions, even if what

they

> say comes out poorly. I tend to trust his judgement about people

and I

> consider him a close friend.

>

> This is the second beloved friend of mine who has been driven off

this

> list because she/he didn't feel safe here. In both cases, someone

from

> this list sent hurtful emails to her/his private email address,

> criticizing that person's personal life.

>

> Given what I said above about Francisco's judgement, I am

reluctant to

> let Rory off the hook. Yes, I read Rory's apology and denial. But

now

> some people are scrambling to apologize for the heated things they

> said about the attacker. We fat girls are so ready to apologize for

> any time we stand up... and I don't think you should in this case.

>

> The strong words that people used here were addressed to an

ANONYMOUS

> bully and were a reflection of how much they love Francisco. I

expect

> Rory to understand that, to know that people do appreciate his

> positive contributions, and not exploit the situation to portray

> himself as the victim here.

>

> Sincerely,

> Martha

[Guest guest]

Pam

The time for forgiveness is when he apologized the first time he

slammed someone. I did that. He hurt me so very deeply in the past

and I forgave. He hurt another friend and I forgave. He has now hurt

Francisco and Im sorry but this time he has gone to far. I dont have

anymore compassion for him.

Sorry

>

> > Regarding the recent unpleasantness...Please allow

> > me this post.

> >

> > My sense is that, like most of us who've removed our

> > fat suits,

> > Francisco is going through a period where he feels

> > like his skin is

> > peeled off. Nevertheless he is a man of fairness and

> > generosity. I

> > think he can tell when someone has good intentions,

> > even if what they

> > say comes out poorly. I tend to trust his judgement

> > about people and I

> > consider him a close friend.

> >

> > This is the second beloved friend of mine who has

> > been driven off this

> > list because she/he didn't feel safe here. In both

> > cases, someone from

> > this list sent hurtful emails to her/his private

> > email address,

> > criticizing that person's personal life.

> >

> > Given what I said above about Francisco's judgement,

> > I am reluctant to

> > let Rory off the hook. Yes, I read Rory's apology

> > and denial. But now

> > some people are scrambling to apologize for the

> > heated things they

> > said about the attacker. We fat girls are so ready

> > to apologize for

> > any time we stand up... and I don't think you should

> > in this case.

> >

> > The strong words that people used here were

> > addressed to an ANONYMOUS

> > bully and were a reflection of how much they love

> > Francisco. I expect

> > Rory to understand that, to know that people do

> > appreciate his

> > positive contributions, and not exploit the

> > situation to portray

> > himself as the victim here.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > Martha

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Martha,

I think people are scrambling to apologize because we all assumed that what was sent was an anti-gay hate mail that was overt and intended to cause pain. Francisco is also my good friend and I love him very much. And you are right, like most of us who have gone through the transition, it is a very sensitive place to be in.

I was thinking about the fact that I've attributed a lot of negative comments or reactions towards me to my weight. It is because I'm fat, I would think. Once that fat suit of armour is gone, what do we blame any negative comments on? We have to find some other attribute or issue, right?

I think Rory should not have sent anything to anybody telling them to cool it, telling them to calm down on some of the postings. That's censureship and shouldn't be done. And to the extent that Francisco was the one he spoke to about it...well, it begs the question as to why I haven't been called on the carpet for my meanderings about Steve, and Olivier. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that Rory was offended by the fact that Francisco is gay. I've seen many many positive posts directed towards Francisco by Rory...and I never got the feeling that there was any ill will there.

So, ill-advised, yes. And sure, I trust Francisco...heck, we're co-leading a group and I think he's a wise and wonderful man. But, e-mails are so so dangerous. You can't read intonation, you can't see body language...they are just so easily misunderstood. I lost a very close friend over an e-mail that I wrote. She honestly completely misconstrued my intent...and try though I might, I could not convince her otherwise. It was heartbreaking.

Remember how Francisco's recent post about the "Fat Team" was misunderstood? I knew the truth, because I know Francisco's character...and also, because we had spoken (in person) about that issue just a few days prior.

The point is, I don't think anybody can truly and honestly judge the intent of another person vis a vis something that is directed at us. Our own vulnerabilities get in the way, and it is impossible to have a clear view.

There were TWO victims, here. One was Francisco, who felt isolated and picked on and censured and unsafe. The other was Rory, who wrote an ill-advised, but not mean, and absolutely not anti-gay (I have subsequently had the opportunity to read the e-mail) missive. I can totally see how Francisco misconstrued it. I can see why he may have felt like he was the only one being called on the carpet for behaviour that many of us engage in.

Now, what I do not know is any history between them. I don't know whether Francisco has reason to believe that Rory is homophobic...I do not know whether Rory has done something to offend Francisco in the past.

What I do know...is that because of my love for Francisco, and my hatred of mean-spirited judgmental crap...I called an anonymous person some names, and told them to get off the board. That was wrong. Period. And I own up to my responsibility in that. It wasn't a mature (though certainly a loving and protective reaction towards Francisco) response.

So, Martha...I don't think I'm apologizing because I'm fat. I'm apologizing because while I absolutely agree that none of us should be censored (as long as we aren't saying horrible things on the board that are aimed to hurt others), neither should we be publicly flogged and beaten if we make a misstep that is one that can be open to multiple interpretations.

The bottom line is that I value and love Francisco. He is my friend. And I hate to see him get hurt in any way, shape or form. I just have a hard time believing that Rory wrote that e-mail with any intention to hurt him. Not on a conscious level, anyway.

I think we ALL need to give each other the benefit of the doubt. And my darling Francisco, who I love very very much...that includes you. Remember that you have been ostracized and hurt a lot in your life because of who you are...and that's horrible and unfair and painful and wrong. ANd you've also been hurt and ostracized because of your weight. The weight thing is gone. No more. And hopefully, now that you live in the land of the enlightened (THE CITY), and you are becoming more comfortable with who you are, and your life...the ostracization for being gay will be seriously, seriously diminished (hopefully gone for good!) But honey bunny...is is possible that you may be sensitive on this topic because of things that have happened to you in the past? I mean, is it all possible that maybe Rory talked to you about this subject (rather than me, for example) because he trusts your maturity and wisdom...and he feels he knows you

better...and maybe thought that you could lead by example? I mean...is that possible at all?

Again, not condoning censorship. Not at all. But, is it possible? And if so, can we all just forgive and forget? And let this be a lesson: no censureship...and no posts or e-mails that are anything other than kind and supportive?

Robynn

nursefera2 wrote:

Regarding the recent unpleasantness...Please allow me this post.My sense is that, like most of us who've removed our fat suits,Francisco is going through a period where he feels like his skin ispeeled off. Nevertheless he is a man of fairness and generosity. Ithink he can tell when someone has good intentions, even if what theysay comes out poorly. I tend to trust his judgement about people and Iconsider him a close friend. This is the second beloved friend of mine who has been driven off thislist because she/he didn't feel safe here. In both cases, someone fromthis list sent hurtful emails to her/his private email address,criticizing that person's personal life. Given what I said above about Francisco's judgement, I am reluctant tolet Rory off the hook. Yes, I read Rory's apology and denial. But nowsome people are

scrambling to apologize for the heated things theysaid about the attacker. We fat girls are so ready to apologize forany time we stand up... and I don't think you should in this case.The strong words that people used here were addressed to an ANONYMOUSbully and were a reflection of how much they love Francisco. I expectRory to understand that, to know that people do appreciate hispositive contributions, and not exploit the situation to portrayhimself as the victim here. Sincerely,Martha

[Guest guest]

Bigotry must never be forgiven.

>

> > Regarding the recent unpleasantness...Please allow

> > me this post.

> >

> > My sense is that, like most of us who've removed our

> > fat suits,

> > Francisco is going through a period where he feels

> > like his skin is

> > peeled off. Nevertheless he is a man of fairness and

> > generosity. I

> > think he can tell when someone has good intentions,

> > even if what they

> > say comes out poorly. I tend to trust his judgement

> > about people and I

> > consider him a close friend.

> >

> > This is the second beloved friend of mine who has

> > been driven off this

> > list because she/he didn't feel safe here. In both

> > cases, someone from

> > this list sent hurtful emails to her/his private

> > email address,

> > criticizing that person's personal life.

> >

> > Given what I said above about Francisco's judgement,

> > I am reluctant to

> > let Rory off the hook. Yes, I read Rory's apology

> > and denial. But now

> > some people are scrambling to apologize for the

> > heated things they

> > said about the attacker. We fat girls are so ready

> > to apologize for

> > any time we stand up... and I don't think you should

> > in this case.

> >

> > The strong words that people used here were

> > addressed to an ANONYMOUS

> > bully and were a reflection of how much they love

> > Francisco. I expect

> > Rory to understand that, to know that people do

> > appreciate his

> > positive contributions, and not exploit the

> > situation to portray

> > himself as the victim here.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > Martha

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Uncle Timmy, you know just as well as I know that

there is not ONE thing we can't forgive someone for

its if you really want to forgive.

And its okay if the answers are no. Freedom is about

choices and no matter what happens here I realize its

about just that...freedom to choose.

Take care.

Pam Marsh

--- Uncle Timmy n01un0@...> wrote:

> Bigotry must never be forgiven.

>

>

> >

> > > Regarding the recent unpleasantness...Please

> allow

> > > me this post.

> > >

> > > My sense is that, like most of us who've removed

> our

> > > fat suits,

> > > Francisco is going through a period where he

> feels

> > > like his skin is

> > > peeled off. Nevertheless he is a man of fairness

> and

> > > generosity. I

> > > think he can tell when someone has good

> intentions,

> > > even if what they

> > > say comes out poorly. I tend to trust his

> judgement

> > > about people and I

> > > consider him a close friend.

> > >

> > > This is the second beloved friend of mine who

> has

> > > been driven off this

> > > list because she/he didn't feel safe here. In

> both

> > > cases, someone from

> > > this list sent hurtful emails to her/his private

> > > email address,

> > > criticizing that person's personal life.

> > >

> > > Given what I said above about Francisco's

> judgement,

> > > I am reluctant to

> > > let Rory off the hook. Yes, I read Rory's

> apology

> > > and denial. But now

> > > some people are scrambling to apologize for the

> > > heated things they

> > > said about the attacker. We fat girls are so

> ready

> > > to apologize for

> > > any time we stand up... and I don't think you

> should

> > > in this case.

> > >

> > > The strong words that people used here were

> > > addressed to an ANONYMOUS

> > > bully and were a reflection of how much they

> love

> > > Francisco. I expect

> > > Rory to understand that, to know that people do

> > > appreciate his

> > > positive contributions, and not exploit the

> > > situation to portray

> > > himself as the victim here.

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > > Martha

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

I had thought that was going to " dis-allow any

further postings about this, but since not... I

completely understand where you are coming from,

Martha. And yes, I truly believe that " fat girls "

often do not stand-up for themselves as often as they

should because they feel as if they are already a

burden for just being fat, for just taking up space,

(isn't that sad?!)

However, with that said, I think that there is far

more than one victim here: it's all of us. This issue

has taken away from what is really important; the love

and support we have for one another. I've said it

before and I'll say it again: Can't we all just stop

and, in the words of Azin, continue talking about

constipation?

Pam B

PS I hope that I did not offend anyone with this post.

(OMG, Was that the " fat girl " in me talking just now?)

--- nursefera2 nurseferatu@...> wrote:

> Regarding the recent unpleasantness...Please allow

> me this post.

>

> My sense is that, like most of us who've removed our

> fat suits,

> Francisco is going through a period where he feels

> like his skin is

> peeled off. Nevertheless he is a man of fairness and

> generosity. I

> think he can tell when someone has good intentions,

> even if what they

> say comes out poorly. I tend to trust his judgement

> about people and I

> consider him a close friend.

>

> This is the second beloved friend of mine who has

> been driven off this

> list because she/he didn't feel safe here. In both

> cases, someone from

> this list sent hurtful emails to her/his private

> email address,

> criticizing that person's personal life.

>

> Given what I said above about Francisco's judgement,

> I am reluctant to

> let Rory off the hook. Yes, I read Rory's apology

> and denial. But now

> some people are scrambling to apologize for the

> heated things they

> said about the attacker. We fat girls are so ready

> to apologize for

> any time we stand up... and I don't think you should

> in this case.

>

> The strong words that people used here were

> addressed to an ANONYMOUS

> bully and were a reflection of how much they love

> Francisco. I expect

> Rory to understand that, to know that people do

> appreciate his

> positive contributions, and not exploit the

> situation to portray

> himself as the victim here.

>

> Sincerely,

> Martha

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________

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[Guest guest]

OK, this will be my last response to any further

e-mails about the Francisco-Rory " thing " , as my

continuing to respond is perpetuating the issue.

Pam, the words that you write are truly powerful...

whenever I see your name on the post, I kinda' figure

that when I read what you've said, I will

more-than-likely come away crying...

Thanks for being such an amazing and compassionate

person.

Pam b

--- Pamela A Marsh sweetnlow20012001@...>

wrote:

> Martha, I understand what you are saying here. I

> understand that you might be angry and hurt about

> what

> has happened. We were made with emotions and

> sensitivity. With this being said and without

> taking

> anything from the support that Francisco is

> receiving.

> Its a great feeling to know that people are going to

> stand up for you but we must also exercise

> compassion

> and FORGIVENESS. I mean if we can't give that to

> someone then how can we expect it when we have

> fallen

> short...

>

> Sometimes you just have to forgiven even when it has

> not been asked for. It frees you even though we

> might

> think it is to free the other person. We don't want

> this...well, let me speak for myself....I don't want

> this to become a place where if someone makes a

> mistake (no matter whose eyes it might appear to

> wrong

> in) that they have to leave or no longer feel

> welcome

> and it it my personal opinion (does not make me

> right

> neither wrong) that this is exactly how Rory might

> be

> feeling.

>

> I am not taking sides with anyone rather reminding

> and

> reflecting that when everything around you has

> crumbled as it sometimes does, we have to learn to

> pick up the pieces..one by one and continue...thats

> the only way we are going to make it.

>

> Just a thought...

>

> Pam Marsh

>

> --- nursefera2 nurseferatu@...> wrote:

>

> > Regarding the recent unpleasantness...Please allow

> > me this post.

> >

> > My sense is that, like most of us who've removed

> our

> > fat suits,

> > Francisco is going through a period where he feels

> > like his skin is

> > peeled off. Nevertheless he is a man of fairness

> and

> > generosity. I

> > think he can tell when someone has good

> intentions,

> > even if what they

> > say comes out poorly. I tend to trust his

> judgement

> > about people and I

> > consider him a close friend.

> >

> > This is the second beloved friend of mine who has

> > been driven off this

> > list because she/he didn't feel safe here. In both

> > cases, someone from

> > this list sent hurtful emails to her/his private

> > email address,

> > criticizing that person's personal life.

> >

> > Given what I said above about Francisco's

> judgement,

> > I am reluctant to

> > let Rory off the hook. Yes, I read Rory's apology

> > and denial. But now

> > some people are scrambling to apologize for the

> > heated things they

> > said about the attacker. We fat girls are so ready

> > to apologize for

> > any time we stand up... and I don't think you

> should

> > in this case.

> >

> > The strong words that people used here were

> > addressed to an ANONYMOUS

> > bully and were a reflection of how much they love

> > Francisco. I expect

> > Rory to understand that, to know that people do

> > appreciate his

> > positive contributions, and not exploit the

> > situation to portray

> > himself as the victim here.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > Martha

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>