Guest guest Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 How come we don't just kill all the bacteria in our gut with antibiotics and then go on a high probiotic SCD? Instead of starving out the bacteria? If I had to guess, I guess it'd be too fast and the die off wouldn't be tolerable. Or maybe it's not possible to kill all the gut bacteria? Or super not good for you? I'm just curious. Peace =) Alyssa 15 yo UC April 2008, dx Sept 2008 SCD June 2009 (restarted) No meds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Alyssa.. It just doesn't work like that. Besides there are issues with the SCD and the probiotics implanting. Just because we flood ourselves with probiotics doesn't mean it is actually doing the job self correcting. It doesn't work like that either. On SCD we starve both the good and the bad. Plus antibiotics can cause many pathogens to over grow and mutate into nasty ones. Antibiotics also don't get rid of pesky biofilms so just because you get rid of the microbes doesn't mean you rid yourself of the biofilm.. can explain why some of us have such issues with various Yeast species. Also as an example Elaine said that Bifidus overgrows and what happens in the biofilm is that it can mutate or gene swap into a nasty pathogen. The bad bugs are a result of the vicious cycle.. not the cause. AJ has some clever ideas as to the cause.. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 On SCD we starve both the good and the bad.I still don't understand this. Here's my logic:-SCD is eliminating undigested foods in the intestinal tract by only allowing foods that a person can digest.-Healthy people can digest their food. Therefore, both healthy people and people on SCD should have no undigested food particles in their bowels.-This means that in both healthy people and people on SCD there should be no undigested food particles for bacteria to eat.-Healthy people have gut flora.If healthy people have gut flora, but don't have undigested food particles in their bowels, wouldn't the bacteria have to eat something else?There are so many different kinds of bacteria. It seems entirely probable that the 'good' bacteria eat something different from the 'bad' bacteria.This is just how I understand it at this time. I'd definitely be open to faults in my logic to understand this better! Thanks! Peace =)Alyssa 15 yoUC April 2008, dx Sept 2008SCD June 2009 (restarted)No meds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Alyssa.. Sorry, I am not understanding what you mean by this idea of undigested food? What does that mean to you? Like food left in a semi whole state? Not absorbed? What do you think is food for both good and bad bacteria? Are you making a distinction between what bacteria eat and how they implant? Do you understand the role of biofilms in all of this? Healthy people don't have gut permeability. Besides we have a lot of undigested food happening while being on SCD. Undigested food no matter the type of food feeds the bugs. I need clarification as to what you mean. Jodi > > > On SCD we starve both the good and the bad. > > > I still don't understand this. Here's my logic: > > -SCD is eliminating undigested foods in the intestinal tract by only > allowing foods that a person can digest. > -Healthy people can digest their food. > Therefore, both healthy people and people on SCD should have no > undigested food particles in their bowels. > -This means that in both healthy people and people on SCD there should > be no undigested food particles for bacteria to eat. > -Healthy people have gut flora. > > If healthy people have gut flora, but don't have undigested food > particles in their bowels, wouldn't the bacteria have to eat something > else? > > There are so many different kinds of bacteria. It seems entirely > probable that the 'good' bacteria eat something different from the > 'bad' bacteria. > > This is just how I understand it at this time. I'd definitely be open > to faults in my logic to understand this better! Thanks! > > Peace =) > Alyssa 15 yo > UC April 2008, dx Sept 2008 > SCD June 2009 (restarted) > No meds! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Sorry, I am not understanding what you mean by this idea of undigested food? What does that mean to you? Like food left in a semi whole state? Not absorbed?What do you think is food for both good and bad bacteria?I thought that in the general 'vicious cycle,' the problem was that our microvilli are damaged somehow and not able to break down di- and poly-saccharides into monosaccharides that our body can absorb. To quote Elaine's diagram in BTVC: "Injury to small intestinal surface :: Impaired digestion of disaccharides :: Malabsorption of disaccharides :: Bacterial overgrowth :: Increase in bacterial by-products and mucus production :: injury to small intestinal surface :: etc....."THis says to me that the 'impaired digestion of disaccharides' and 'malabsorption of disaccharides' is what causes 'bacterial overgrowth' and 'increase in bacterial by-products.' Since in an ideal digestive situation, there would be no impaired digestion of disaccharides and no malabsorption of disaccharides, but there would still be good bacteria, that leads me to believe that the good bacteria would have to live on something other than shat the bad bacteria live on, ie di- and poly-saccharides that are not broken down and/or absorbed. Peace =)Alyssa 15 yoUC April 2008, dx Sept 2008SCD June 2009 (restarted)No meds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Hi Alyssa, I'm the original poster on last night's antibiotic thing (and I actually slept for some portion of the night last night, thank god for small mercies). And the concept of killing all of the bacteria and re-populating with beneficial flora is one that is actually in use. There is something called the Human Probiotic Infusion, in which probiotics in the form of stool from a healthy human donor is inserted, either by colonoscopy, enema, or naso-gastro tube, into the donee. There's a lot of evidence that commercial probiotic strains do not have the ability to adhere to the epithelial cells of the stomach/intestines, therefore having only transient effects, but the bacteria from a healthy human being does, hence the concept. It's pretty much only done in America at very few clinics and only for untreatable c diff infections. It is done in the Scandinavian countries and Australia for a broader range of diseases, including ulcerative colitis, Crohn's, etc. The Australian folks are at the Center for Digestive Diseases, which is Barry Marshall's, the Nobel Prize winner in medicine for his work on h pylori, clinic. The doctor heading up the HPI section is Dr. Borody, and mark my words, he's going to win the Nobel Prize one day soon. To note, this is research-based work done by highly reputable doctors, and there is peer-reviewed medical literature to back up their claims. The success rates, based on the studies I've seen by them, is roughly 90%, and it appears to be the same for curing c diff in this country. The CDC also believes that dysbiosis is the root cause of so much of the autoimmunity, allergies, autism, etc., that we see. I've talked to them about a phone appointment for doing this at home, but they are backed up enough that it can take months to actually get scheduled. I'm also getting my passport in order, just in case.... They've actually got a home protocol to use, since the response to their work is overwhelming, and so many are seeking help where none exists (like in this country, I say very cynically, after spending tens of thousands of dollars over the past few years to end up still feeling sick. SCD is the ONLY thing that has worked for me). I've actually got a donor lined up, and we're screening him right now for infectious diseases, and bacteria and parasites. I didn't have things set up when I started my antibiotics for the h pylori, primarily because my originally intended donor ended up on antibiotics himself, which takes him off the potential donor list for six months minimum. I cruise the Healing Well UC and Chron's pages, too, as part of my new exciting life as a sick person (who WILL get better), and there a number of people who have tried the HPI at both the clinic in Aus and at home. By and large, everyone is happy with the procedure, and most get significant relief from their problem. Sometimes the effects are only transient, lasting a few months, but a lot of these people are not following SCD, and I think that getting a digestive system functioning optimally is key to long-term success. I only saw one negative comment, and then it was by someone who said he talked with someone who ended up sicker after the procedure, but that he thought it was from the antibiotics, not the insertion of donor stool. How's that for a mouthful??? Ellen > > How come we don't just kill all the bacteria in our gut with > antibiotics and then go on a high probiotic SCD? Instead of starving > out the bacteria? > > If I had to guess, I guess it'd be too fast and the die off wouldn't > be tolerable. Or maybe it's not possible to kill all the gut bacteria? > Or super not good for you? I'm just curious. > > Peace =) > Alyssa 15 yo > UC April 2008, dx Sept 2008 > SCD June 2009 (restarted) > No meds! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 How's that for a mouthful???lol =) Very interesting though! Thanks for the info. Peace =)Alyssa 15 yoUC April 2008, dx Sept 2008SCD June 2009 (restarted)No meds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 How come we don't just kill all the bacteria in our gut with antibiotics and then go on a high probiotic SCD? Instead of starving out the bacteria? This actually is the system used by Dr Pimental in his book. He does a breath test to decide which is the predominant kind of bad bacteria you have and then you get different antibiotics accordingly. Heavy duty ones. I was so desperate to feel better I volunteered to try this, but my doctor said it should work but would kill off all the good bacteria at the same time and could be pretty hairy to repopulate with the good ones. His suggestion at that time was that I try to really hit the good bacteria to try to overwhelm the baddies, and about that time I found SCD and went that way. I suspect Dr P's system would cause heavy duty die-off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Sorry, I am not understanding what you mean by this idea of undigested food? What does that mean to you? Like food left in a semi whole state? Not absorbed?What do you think is food for both good and bad bacteria?I thought that in the general 'vicious cycle,' the problem was that our microvilli are damaged somehow and not able to break down di- and poly-saccharides into monosaccharides that our body can absorb. To quote Elaine's diagram in BTVC: "Injury to small intestinal surface :: Impaired digestion of disaccharides :: Malabsorption of disaccharides :: Bacterial overgrowth :: Increase in bacterial by-products and mucus production :: injury to small intestinal surface :: etc....."THis says to me that the 'impaired digestion of disaccharides' and 'malabsorption of disaccharides' is what causes 'bacterial overgrowth' and 'increase in bacterial by-products.' Since in an ideal digestive situation, there would be no impaired digestion of disaccharides and no malabsorption of disaccharides, but there would still be good bacteria, that leads me to believe that the good bacteria would have to live on something other than! shat the bad bacteria live on, ie di- and poly-saccharides that are not broken down and/or absorbed.It's much more complicated than this.For instance, everyone has bad bacteria/mold/fungus, etc., butthere is a peacekeeper T-cell thingy that is supposed to regulatetheir behavior in the digestive tract - and that is a gene that isimpaired and missing in UC people. So that these pathogensare then able to penetrate the gut wall and cause inflammation.And we are only now at the beginning of understanding themechanics of how these diseases work. That is one reason whythere is no cure for them as yet - they are not well understood, whichis why doctors rely on a set of protocols that are not always helpful.The problem of the microvilli effects celiac patients in particular,AFAIU.Mara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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