Richmond & protein studies (long)

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, I don't think the studies have BEEN done. What I did was

look at the Grad's group, in which postings are limited to those who are

more than a year post-op. I looked at who was posting, and what they

said their results were. Are there successful longterm posties who

aren't doing shakes? Probably.

I do find it telling that the majority of the surgical groups that

specialize in bariatric surgery, that have been doing it for many years

(not just the quick buck assembly line chains), seem to encourage

protein drinks. Pacific Bariatrics is one classic example. They used to

all the weight loss surgery for Northern California Kaiser patients. One

of the most respected bariatric surgeons is Ki Oh in Washington state.

He does a lot of revisions, fixing surgeries that other doctors have

screwed up, or in cases of things like enlarged stomas or staple line

disruptions, or if not enough was bypassed in the original surgery. He

requires his patients to sign a contract committing to drinking protein

drinks for the rest of his life. By the way, his nutritionist is a

postie herself.

What is starting to be studied is the issue of hypertrophy. It seems

that in people who get good nutrition, including protein IN A FORM THAT

IS EASILY ABSORBED (more about that later), there is less regrowth of

the intestine. It seems that in those who do not get adequate nutrition,

the body grows more vili (sp?), which are the little fingers in the

intestine that grab nutrients out of the food. This has not yet been

adequately studied, partially because my understanding is that the only

way to study this would be to biopsy people's intestines and count the

fingers. Not exactly something that most of us would leap at the chance

to have done!

It does seem clear that there are areas in the digestive tract where

different nutrients are absorbed. A lot of those are already bypassed

when the duodenum is bypassed. Even with the nutrients that are absorbed

throughout the small intestine, making the nutrients as absorbable as

possible will maximize the amount absorbed. That makes sense, right? So

why would taking protein into your body in a form where it is partially

broken down, so that it is more absorbable, be a bad thing? Kinda like

the ads for baby formula where they were talking about how the proteins

are broken down to make them easier on baby's tummy. Same idea.

I do also have a philosophical difference with those who tend to be

anti-protein drink. The feeling seems to be that it is okay to not be

able to take in enough protein for a while after surgery. The problem I

see with this is that if the body doesn't take in enough protein, it

will start taking it from the muscles, including the heart. I personally

would rather lose ten pounds a month in just fat than twenty pounds, if

half of that is fat and half is muscle. If we have indeed had a

malabsorbtive procedure, how are we supposed to be able to restore the

protein stores? Sorry, it does NOT make sense to me. Kinda like telling

someone " Give me half your paycheck every payday. You can make it up in

the future. " How are you supposed to do that when you've spent

everything you had in savings and gone bankrupt? Sorry, like I said, it

doesn't make sense to me. Nor does it make sense that I am going to be

able to eat enough protein without stretching out my pouch. Somewhere

the logic just ain't there.

If the folks at Richmond (or anyone else) really want to find out about

protein drinks, including in longterm posties, I can strongly recommend

two Yahoo groups. The first is the Protein group, which can be found at

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/OSSG-Protein/ . The second is the

Grads group (which I mentioned earlier) which can be found at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG/ . If they ask the same

questions there, they will probably get answers. Oh boy, will they get

answers! By the way, I think I provided the people at Richmond the links

to these two groups a couple of years ago.

Here's the bottom line for me. When I'm drinking the protein drinks, I

feel better. I don't have the insane cravings for carbs and food that

isn't good for me. My body seems to know that it has gotten good

nutrition, and it is satisfied. I know far too many people who, if they

go on a regimen that includes protein drinks, they do well. If they

don't, the carb monster takes control. They work for me!

psutherland@... wrote:

> I spoke to Beth yesterday at the Nutrition class in Richmond and she

> said if anyone has any written proof that people do better in the long

> term if they drink protein shakes that she would like to see it...Do

> you have anything you can send me...would definitely pass it on...I

> have heard the same thing in my support group in Oakland, which is

> tonight and am going to ask them for proof too....

--

Eleanor Oster

eleanor@... (personal address)

www.smallboxes.com/gastricbypass.htm

San , CA

Open RNY (100 cm bypassed) 07/15/2003

P. Fisher, M.D., Kaiser Richmond (CA)

~5'9 " tall

05/09/2003 319 Orientation

07/15/2003 ~290 Surgery

Current 150-155 Goal until plastics?

[Guest guest]

Elenor,

Well written, your arguement for protein is well thought out. UCLA says that we need 100 grams of protein and 1000 calories a day....try to do that without protein drinks! Not easy. We should not be starving ourselves, if life is not enjoyed than why do this? Protein gives us the energy needed to walk, excersize, and live healthy. Vitalady's sample has been enough for two shakes for Randy. I realize the milk and fruit debate and respect it, however, 2 or 3 ounces of skim milk and two or three skinny slices of banana or a strawberry or two blueberries notice I said OR not AND can make the difference between gritty nasty and pure heaven. So far, thumbs up have been chocolate stawberry, banana dream(?), chocolate peanut butter, the only nasty one was isopure powder...it was gritty and separated in the glass.... Isopure ready to drink in the bottle....YUMMY!!!! All of them!!!! Randy and I have our old fridge on the back porch , we go to Sam's club about once a month....Fruit2O, ,

propel, bottled water and GATORADE FOR THE KID!!!! He drinks our stuff too. We keep it filled with drinks all the time, I guess we are lucky that way. We went to a few vitamin places today while walking the mall, they were not too smart or cheap. One great thing UCLA requires is that we took four classes, preop, post op, and two dietary and nutrition. Attendance was manditory and a test was given at the end of each class, those that did not pass the quiz had to retake the class!!!! Sounds a little hoaky but if we do not know and understand how serious this is, the results are not good!!!! VITAMIN WORLD is right across the street from us, THANK GOD!!!! They are so nice and SMART TOO!!!! The best part is the honesty , if they didn't know about flavor, or nutritional value they found someone who did. They were a little cheaper too. I'm sure this is not all over you have to shop around and discover the best place for you.....but BUYER BEWARE is really the truth for us! Right

before Randy's surgery I bought a huge variety of samples from VITA LADY, there are still a bunch we haven't tried yet. This program has been a godsend, SO FAR, Good luck in the great shake debate.

Hugs! and thanks for caring!

Randy and Sue in Palmdale.Eleanor Oster wrote:

Unfortunately, I don't think the studies have BEEN done. What I did was look at the Grad's group, in which postings are limited to those who are more than a year post-op. I looked at who was posting, and what they said their results were. Are there successful longterm posties who aren't doing shakes? Probably.I do find it telling that the majority of the surgical groups that specialize in bariatric surgery, that have been doing it for many years (not just the quick buck assembly line chains), seem to encourage protein drinks. Pacific Bariatrics is one classic example. They used to all the weight loss surgery for Northern California Kaiser patients. One of the most respected bariatric surgeons is Ki Oh in Washington state. He does a lot of revisions, fixing surgeries that other doctors have screwed up, or in cases of things like

enlarged stomas or staple line disruptions, or if not enough was bypassed in the original surgery. He requires his patients to sign a contract committing to drinking protein drinks for the rest of his life. By the way, his nutritionist is a postie herself.What is starting to be studied is the issue of hypertrophy. It seems that in people who get good nutrition, including protein IN A FORM THAT IS EASILY ABSORBED (more about that later), there is less regrowth of the intestine. It seems that in those who do not get adequate nutrition, the body grows more vili (sp?), which are the little fingers in the intestine that grab nutrients out of the food. This has not yet been adequately studied, partially because my understanding is that the only way to study this would be to biopsy people's intestines and count the fingers. Not exactly something that most of us would leap at the chance to have done!It does seem clear that

there are areas in the digestive tract where different nutrients are absorbed. A lot of those are already bypassed when the duodenum is bypassed. Even with the nutrients that are absorbed throughout the small intestine, making the nutrients as absorbable as possible will maximize the amount absorbed. That makes sense, right? So why would taking protein into your body in a form where it is partially broken down, so that it is more absorbable, be a bad thing? Kinda like the ads for baby formula where they were talking about how the proteins are broken down to make them easier on baby's tummy. Same idea.I do also have a philosophical difference with those who tend to be anti-protein drink. The feeling seems to be that it is okay to not be able to take in enough protein for a while after surgery. The problem I see with this is that if the body doesn't take in enough protein, it will start taking it from the muscles, including the

heart. I personally would rather lose ten pounds a month in just fat than twenty pounds, if half of that is fat and half is muscle. If we have indeed had a malabsorbtive procedure, how are we supposed to be able to restore the protein stores? Sorry, it does NOT make sense to me. Kinda like telling someone "Give me half your paycheck every payday. You can make it up in the future." How are you supposed to do that when you've spent everything you had in savings and gone bankrupt? Sorry, like I said, it doesn't make sense to me. Nor does it make sense that I am going to be able to eat enough protein without stretching out my pouch. Somewhere the logic just ain't there.If the folks at Richmond (or anyone else) really want to find out about protein drinks, including in longterm posties, I can strongly recommend two Yahoo groups. The first is the Protein group, which can be found at http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/OSSG-Protein/ . The second is the Grads group (which I mentioned earlier) which can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG/ . If they ask the same questions there, they will probably get answers. Oh boy, will they get answers! By the way, I think I provided the people at Richmond the links to these two groups a couple of years ago.Here's the bottom line for me. When I'm drinking the protein drinks, I feel better. I don't have the insane cravings for carbs and food that isn't good for me. My body seems to know that it has gotten good nutrition, and it is satisfied. I know far too many people who, if they go on a regimen that includes protein drinks, they do well. If they don't, the carb monster takes control. They work for me!psutherland@...

wrote:> I spoke to Beth yesterday at the Nutrition class in Richmond and she > said if anyone has any written proof that people do better in the long > term if they drink protein shakes that she would like to see it...Do > you have anything you can send me...would definitely pass it on...I > have heard the same thing in my support group in Oakland, which is > tonight and am going to ask them for proof too....-- Eleanor Ostereleanor@... (personal address)www.smallboxes.com/gastricbypass.htmSan , CAOpen RNY (100 cm bypassed) 07/15/2003 P. Fisher, M.D., Kaiser Richmond (CA)~5'9" tall05/09/2003 319 Orientation07/15/2003 ~290 SurgeryCurrent 150-155 Goal until plastics?

[Guest guest]

This makes a LOT of sense to me, esp. the part below where you're

talking about the reduction of cravings for carbs and other not-good

foods. It matches with my experience so far in trying to simply lose

weight through dieting; low-carb, very high-protein diets have been

much more successful and maintainable for me than diets that were

better " balanced " . If I don't get enough protein (at least 80g/day) I

just go berserk around carbs.

Interestingly, I followed the Bradley natural childbirth method with

both my pregnancies. One of the key elements of their program is the

need for mothers to get really high levels of protein during

pregnancy - they recommend over 100g/day! I had NO morning sickness,

NO complications, NO hypertension - in spite of the fact that I was

over 300 lbs at delivery the first time and nearly 350 lbs with

daughter #2. And the second one was a C-sec, and my medical team was

AMAZED at the speed of my recovery. So I'm a firm believer in protein

for quick recovery!

Cathy

> Here's the bottom line for me. When I'm drinking the protein drinks,

I

> feel better. I don't have the insane cravings for carbs and food

that

> isn't good for me. My body seems to know that it has gotten good

> nutrition, and it is satisfied. I know far too many people who, if

they

> go on a regimen that includes protein drinks, they do well. If they

> don't, the carb monster takes control. They work for me!