Re: the petition

[Guest guest]

I distinctly remember reading one of the moderators, or powers that be,

saying that they had gone in and deleted messages from the archives from some

person or persons, which I thought was, in and of itself, quite similar to

book burning. I guess we are too old, too young, too timid, too sensitive,

too ________ to be able to see what was written. I also thought it was a

power play, which I also thought to be wholly unnecessary. (Forgive me if I

that was a moderator from another list). I pity that poor woman, having the

surprise of her life after recovering from anesthesia, and when she expressed

herself, she was stoned by the very people that should be helping her hold

her head above water!

[Guest guest]

"I distinctly remember reading one of the moderators, or powers that be, saying that they had gone in and deleted messages from the archives from some person or persons, which I thought was, in and of itself, quite similar to book burning. I guess we are too old, too young, too timid, too sensitive, too ________ to be able to see what was written. I also thought it was a power play, which I also thought to be wholly unnecessary. (Forgive me if I that was a moderator from another list). I pity that poor woman, having the surprise of her life after recovering from anesthesia, and when she expressed herself, she was stoned by the very people that should be helping her hold her head above water! "

Hopingsoul and all others:

No posts of Debs have been deleted. Go to the groups on-line and type Ciar1 in the box next to the button SEARCH ARCHIVE. You will find all her posts going back as far as 11/7/2000 when she was a patient of Dr Gagner before she changed docs.

We have GOOD moderators here. People who have been through the surgery and are living their lives BUT still concerned enough about the pre-ops to offer a place to learn about this surgery. What will happen if we allow lawlessness to take over? We will not have a group at all. Yahoo holds the power to remove this group if Dr Ren or her attorneys or the attorneys for the hospital complain either in court or just with one threatening letter from them. No one has told Deb not to make statements regarding her health. Just to stop the name calling. Something that this list should not have any part of to begin with. One of the rules is about FLAMING. Do you believe anyone has the right to defy rules just because they are hurting, sick and scared. I admit, Deb is all of those things.

Tom made some very good and valid points. So did Nan. As a person that has been under constant attack I feel sorry for anyone that does not hold the party line. Gobo was attacked by certain members of this list when she tried to show some support (suggesting that Deb seek help) and we have had many members leave over this issue. The fact remains that we did not stone this drowning woman. Or prevent her from getting support. Never once in all the time that Deb posted did she ask for help. She posted her story and anytime anyone had a remark to make to her regarding getting some help over her anger issues she bubbled over at them. You should know the whole story before you start waging all out war against any one person. I had been in contact with Deb for many months prior to her surgery. Did you know that she was on anti-depressants and quit taking them 5 days after her surgery? Did you know that? I have tried on more than one occasion to get her to go back to the doctor. She stated that she did not want to go back on the pills and that she wanted to feel this anger. It was what made her life worth living. The night before she posted her first post calling Dr Ren a butcher, we spent several hours talking about this. I begged her then to go to the doctor and if she is reading this now, I am begging her again. I am not going to rehash this whole issue, but if some of you people would spend your energy trying to HELP Deb instead of fueling the fire of her anger, she would be better off. True friends try to help where they see the help is needed and I did my best to try to keep her from drowning in her sorrow. I have not talked to Deb personally since she stated she never wanted to talk to me again. I can only go by what I am reading on the list that her anger and despair were getting worse instead of better. I know there is an inquiry going on with the NYC Board of Health right now but I really do not think it will help Deb because they will find that Dr Ren saved her from certain complications. Dr Ren always has deeply regretted what has happened (if you bothered to read the letter that the hospital sent to Deb then you would know this).

THE ONE GOOD AND POSITIVE THING THAT HAS COME FROM ALL THIS COMMOTION IS THIS: Knowledge. Anytime a surgeon has to sew parts back together they hold their breaths waiting for the organ to turn pink. When it does not, they have failed. They failed their art, their patients and most of all themselves. Any kind of surgery holds this risk. And this surgery especially. There are 3 areas that must turn pink or the area will turn necrotic and die. We have had a lot of people with that complication that have had to have 2nd, 3rd and 4th surgeries to cut the necrosies away and resew the bowels back together. If Dr Ren had not removed the dead (or dieing) area on Deb, this would have been her story. This is THE COMPLICATION of this surgery. Know it, talk to your surgeon about it. It is part of Dr Ren's pre-op warning now and should be a part of all surgeon's warning because this can and does happen. It can and does happen that the duodenum never works again. That the valve malfunctions. And it does happen that the duodenum is removed and the surgeon never tells the patient and the patient goes on believing they had a proper DS surgery.

If this thing had never happened to Deb, we would still be ignorant of this.

Viau http://www.angelfire.com/on/wannabemagic/WLS.html 3/29/01: 3165/20/01: 273 (-43 lbs)Dr Ren, NYUMC http://www.thinforlife.orgTo join the new group for Dr Ren click on the link belowhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYUMC-thinforlife

[Guest guest]

,

I'm not in total disagreement with the things that you said but I do

take issue with a couple of things.

It is not your place to discuss Deb's medications and HER decisions

of whether or not to continue taking them. I imagine this was told to

you privately and in confidence that you wouldn't be telling the

whole world.

The second issue is your presumption that you know what is right for

Deb. She needs be be able to FEEL this and work through this at her

own pace. She is a very smart cookie and when she FEELS it's time for

her to see someone about this she will. You accuse the people that

support her of not doing it the " right way " . Again, your opinion of

how things should be done. " True friends " support their friends, not

tell them what to do or rush them through a process that there is no

rushing through.

I think your heart is in the right place but you're just too close to

the situation to see it objectively. If Dr Ren wasn't your surgeon do

you think you would have such strong opinions of how Deb should deal

with her grief?

Lap LG/DS Dr 1/23/01

268 BMI 42

196 BMI 31

-- In duodenalswitch@y..., " " wrote:

>

> " I distinctly remember reading one of the moderators, or powers

that be,

> saying that they had gone in and deleted messages from the archives

from some

> person or persons, which I thought was, in and of itself, quite

similar to

> book burning. I guess we are too old, too young, too timid, too

sensitive,

> too ________ to be able to see what was written. I also thought it

was a

> power play, which I also thought to be wholly unnecessary.

(Forgive me if I

> that was a moderator from another list). I pity that poor woman,

having the

> surprise of her life after recovering from anesthesia, and when she

expressed

> herself, she was stoned by the very people that should be helping

her hold

> her head above water! "

>

> Hopingsoul and all others:

>

> No posts of Debs have been deleted. Go to the groups on-line and

type Ciar1 in the box next to the button SEARCH ARCHIVE. You will

find all her posts going back as far as 11/7/2000 when she was a

patient of Dr Gagner before she changed docs.

> We have GOOD moderators here. People who have been through the

surgery and are living their lives BUT still concerned enough about

the pre-ops to offer a place to learn about this surgery. What will

happen if we allow lawlessness to take over? We will not have a

group at all. Yahoo holds the power to remove this group if Dr Ren

or her attorneys or the attorneys for the hospital complain either in

court or just with one threatening letter from them. No one has told

Deb not to make statements regarding her health. Just to stop the

name calling. Something that this list should not have any part of

to begin with. One of the rules is about FLAMING. Do you believe

anyone has the right to defy rules just because they are hurting,

sick and scared. I admit, Deb is all of those things.

> Tom made some very good and valid points. So did Nan. As a person

that has been under constant attack I feel sorry for anyone that does

not hold the party line. Gobo was attacked by certain members of

this list when she tried to show some support (suggesting that Deb

seek help) and we have had many members leave over this issue. The

fact remains that we did not stone this drowning woman. Or prevent

her from getting support. Never once in all the time that Deb posted

did she ask for help. She posted her story and anytime anyone had a

remark to make to her regarding getting some help over her anger

issues she bubbled over at them. You should know the whole story

before you start waging all out war against any one person. I had

been in contact with Deb for many months prior to her surgery. Did

you know that she was on anti-depressants and quit taking them 5 days

after her surgery? Did you know that? I have tried on more than one

occasion to get her to go back to the doctor. She stated that she

did not want to go back on the pills and that she wanted to feel this

anger. It was what made her life worth living. The night before she

posted her first post calling Dr Ren a butcher, we spent several

hours talking about this. I begged her then to go to the doctor and

if she is reading this now, I am begging her again. I am not going

to rehash this whole issue, but if some of you people would spend

your energy trying to HELP Deb instead of fueling the fire of her

anger, she would be better off. True friends try to help where they

see the help is needed and I did my best to try to keep her from

drowning in her sorrow. I have not talked to Deb personally since

she stated she never wanted to talk to me again. I can only go by

what I am reading on the list that her anger and despair were getting

worse instead of better. I know there is an inquiry going on with

the NYC Board of Health right now but I really do not think it will

help Deb because they will find that Dr Ren saved her from certain

complications. Dr Ren always has deeply regretted what has happened

(if you bothered to read the letter that the hospital sent to Deb

then you would know this).

> THE ONE GOOD AND POSITIVE THING THAT HAS COME FROM ALL THIS

COMMOTION IS THIS: Knowledge. Anytime a surgeon has to sew parts

back together they hold their breaths waiting for the organ to turn

pink. When it does not, they have failed. They failed their art,

their patients and most of all themselves. Any kind of surgery holds

this risk. And this surgery especially. There are 3 areas that must

turn pink or the area will turn necrotic and die. We have had a lot

of people with that complication that have had to have 2nd, 3rd and

4th surgeries to cut the necrosies away and resew the bowels back

together. If Dr Ren had not removed the dead (or dieing) area on

Deb, this would have been her story. This is THE COMPLICATION of

this surgery. Know it, talk to your surgeon about it. It is part of

Dr Ren's pre-op warning now and should be a part of all surgeon's

warning because this can and does happen. It can and does happen

that the duodenum never works again. That the valve malfunctions.

And it does happen that the duodenum is removed and the surgeon never

tells the patient and the patient goes on believing they had a proper

DS surgery.

> If this thing had never happened to Deb, we would still be ignorant

of this.

>

> Viau

> http://www.angelfire.com/on/wannabemagic/WLS.html

> 3/29/01: 316

> 5/20/01: 273 (-43 lbs)

> Dr Ren, NYUMC http://www.thinforlife.org

> To join the new group for Dr Ren click on the link below

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NYUMC-thinforlife

[Guest guest]

You, , are a good and true friend to Deb. I commend you for your efforts to help her and your courage in posting what you have. You are what an angel on earth should be. I am sure it is very hard for you to feel you have lost a friendship. You put a lot of effort into helping your friend and I hope you have many friends who will give that effort it's just reward -- long years of loving care and support, good times and bad, laughter and tears.

Nan E.