Open/Lap~Deb/No Deb~ Petitions Etc. Im Done

[Guest guest]

I so give up. This is in no way even CLOSE to worth

the effort. I was gone for 3 days, had over 300

emails, ALL of which were DS list related, and at

least 50% of which was bickering and fighting. If you

people cant be mature enough to have a conversation

without throwing condescending tirades at each other I

don't know how you ever made it through the phych

eval. I am so disapointed, I gained so much

information here before all the petty bullshit

started. Grow up people. We are not two years old.

Other people have differing views. And if you are too

blind to see that I don't need you giving me advice on

anything.

--- tlarussa@... wrote:

>

> > " I had no idea Dr. R was doing lap on patients so

> large. "

> > They operated on a woman who was 620 pounds with a

> BMI of 116 and a

> > man who was 526 pounds with a BMI of 73.

>

> They did this lap? Wow. That took big brass ones.

>

>

>

> > They even welcome revisions

> > from other WLS surgeries when other Drs wont touch

> them.

>

> Yes, we are blessed in California, in that three out

> of our four

> surgeons do revisions for those poor folks who had

> one of those lousy

> surgeries.

>

>

>

> > > First off, my assertion that lap is no safer

> than open

> > > was based on the quote from Dr. Baltasar on the

> DS website.

> > > Dr. Baltasar is quoted as saying, " it (lap) is

> not easier nor

> > > safer than open surgery.

> >

> > Yeah Baltasar did a few laps and didnt like how

> long it took him to

> > do them, so doesnt do them anymore.

>

> I'm wondering, what would I have to do to get you to

> respond to what

> I actually say instead of making up a straw-man in

> your mind and then

> responding to it.

>

> Once again: Dr. Baltasar said that lap " IS NOT

> EASIER NOR SAFER THAN

> OPEN SURGERY. "

>

> Notice, he did not say lap is MORE dangerous, nor

> did he say that it

> is HARDER.

>

> He simply said that lap " IS NOT EASIER NOR SAFER

> THAN OPEN SURGERY. "

>

> This was my original point to which you responded,

> and you have yet

> to offer a shred of evidence to the contrary.

>

>

>

> > North American Association for the Study of

> Obesity (NAASO) 2000

>

> Once again, that quote concerned GALLBLADDER surgery

> and the RNY.

> Different surgeries, different group of surgeons.

>

>

> > You can find instances of any surgeon not having a

> surgery

> > go well...

>

> So what. Again you refuse to respond to what I

> said.

>

>

>

> > " In clinical studies, the advantages of

> laparoscopic over open

> > surgery have been well documented. "

>

> 1. Still the same problem as above, i.e., different

> surgeries,

> different surgeons.

>

> 2. I never said that lap does not have advantages.

> I simply said

> that the DS by lap is not SAFER than the DS by open.

>

>

>

>

> > I know its like all of those who prefer the

> surgery with less

> > complications are more readily willing to risk

> thier life! LOL!

>

> Not knowingly, but I think that those of you who

> chant the " lap is

> the only way " mantra often fool yourselves into

> think that because

> your incisions are smaller, then somehow the surgery

> is LESS

> dangerous. This logic certainly didn't do Deb any

> good, did it?

>

>

>

> > If lap surgery had horrible or even worse stats

> for complications

> > and intra opreative moridity than open then that

> might be a valid

> > point, but the stats dont say that at all:

>

> 1. I am talking about the DS, not surgery in

> general. The DS is a

> very major surgery. I would guess that only major

> organ transplants

> are more technically demanding.

>

> 2. The " stats " you cite say NOTHING about the DS.

>

>

> > " Also, there are other considerations. My

> surgeon, as a regular

> > part of the process, removes each patient's

> gallbladder and

> > appendix.

>

> > My surgeon does DS lap and also removes the GB and

> the appendix

> > routinely.

>

> Well good for him!

>

>

> > " Try to do all of that with one of

> > > those camera-on-a-stick-thingies! " "

> > They do it all the time, its no big deal for them

> at all.

>

> Oh really? I notice how neatly you chopped of my

> comment about the

> surgeon palpating all of the internal organs WITH

> HIS FINGERS to

> check for tumors, etc. Are you saying he sticks his

> fingers down

> that little tube, or are you just ignoring what I

> say, yet again?

>

>

> > " First off, he likes to run his fingers along the

> entire length of

> > the digestive tract "

> >

> > OK one surgeon likes to go in there and manually

> manipulate all the

> > organs and intestines...

>

> Two actually that I know of for sure.

>

>

>

> > some drs argue the less manipulation,the

> > less truama to the internal organs the better.

>

> What, no thirty page quote from the Journal of

> Tonsilectomies?

>

>

>

> > Each surgery has its

> > pros and cons... listen to the lap surgeons

> describe what they are

> > able to see via the power magnification about what

> they would miss

> > with just the naked eye!

>

> Oh, I get it now! The lap is better because it's

> just IMPOSSIBLE to

> use a magnifying lens during an open operation!

> Wow, why didn't I

> think of that?

>

>

>

> > " ANY surgery could take a lot longer in the hands

> of an unskilled

> > > surgeon! "

> > I think you might have missed the point I was

> trying to make -its

> > that some argue that the lap surgery takes

> longer...

>

> Yeah, so? Once again you are responding to things

> in your own head,

> rather than what I have written. Me thinks this is

> not a very good

> way to have a dialogue.

>

>

>

> > what I was

>

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