Re:IBS and/or SIBO

[Guest guest]

Is there anyone else on this list with a diagnosis of or symptoms

that match SIBO or " IBS " ?

IBS is my title. What can I answer for you?

[Guest guest]

Yes I have IBS but not sure what SIBO is?

Suzanne

IBS/diverticular disease Re:"IBS" and/or SIBOTo: BTVC-SCD > > Is there anyone else on this list with a diagnosis of or > symptoms > that match SIBO or "IBS"?> > IBS is my title. What can I answer for you?> >

[Guest guest]

> IBS is my title. What can I answer for you?

>

How has SCD worked for you. What, if any, modifications have you found helpful?

Any advice?

Thanks, !

Lilian

[Guest guest]

SIBO is diagnosed with a breath test. Probiotics can help keep it under control after the antibiotics.

To: BTVC-SCD Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 9:13:43 AMSubject: Re:"IBS" and/or SIBO

> IBS is my title. What can I answer for you?> How has SCD worked for you. What, if any, modifications have you found helpful? Any advice?Thanks, !Lilian

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

I am a Naturopathic Doc who has been researching SIBO with great interest. BTVC

and Pimentel are discussing the exact same thing and I was shocked and thrilled

to learn there is an MD diagnosis for it.

I have IBS-C x 35 years. Dr Pimentel's book answered the questions left for me

from BTVC. BTVC finally explained bloating- bacterial production of gases, and

the general condition/problem. From Pimentel I finally learned about the

constipation- methane producing(or actually converting) bacteria are present in

constipated patients -the methane interacts with the gut wall to increase but

reverse the peristalsis of the small intestine!

He gives hope of a quicker bacterial kill but it sure seems that relapse is a

very big problem. He uses low dose drugs long-term to prevent relapse by

ensuring the proper movement of the SI to cleanse away the bact trying to

recolonize again. I believe he thinks lack of this SI peristalsis is the

underlying cause, physiologically.

Two concepts/questions I am mulling(out of too many to list!)-

Our diet kills the bugs, but slowly because we are still eating food which they

can eat too, we're just limiting their favorites.(In a recent paper I read, it

said SI bact can eat amino acids, fatty acids and monosaccharides- all the most

broken down forms of our food) Therefore this starving takes 1++ years. A

vivonex or water fast would do this in 2 weeks.(I am aware vivonex contains

illegals and will be approaching some companies to make a legal and inexpensive

alternative).

On page 5 of Bager and Lass's 'Everyday Grain Free Gourmet', they refer to the

Dr Hass'es belief that adult celiac's starting SCD cannot be cured, but can be

sx free while on it. Is this true for all of us adult SCD'ers, celiac or not?

Has any adult been able to go off the diet and be cured? I personally think the

diet is very healthy- not much different then Paleo except for dairy and honey-

but it would be nice not to harm one's gut by a transgression.

I welcome all thoughts/discussion and am extremely grateful for SCD which has

given me the first control I've ever had in my life for my bloating and pain.

IBS-C 35 years

SCD 7 months

>

> > IBS is my title. What can I answer for you?

> >

>

> How has SCD worked for you. What, if any, modifications have you found

helpful? Any advice?

>

> Thanks, !

> Lilian

>

[Guest guest]

Hi et al-

> I have IBS-C x 35 years. Dr Pimentel's book answered the questions left for

me from BTVC. BTVC finally explained bloating- bacterial production of gases,

and the general condition/problem.

I've been symptomatic for 12 years, and it was such a relief for me, too, to at

least find a theory that explained what I was experiencing!

>From Pimentel I finally learned about the constipation- methane producing(or

actually converting) bacteria are present in constipated patients -the methane

interacts with the gut wall to increase but reverse the peristalsis of the small

intestine!

It really seems as if though we're all dealing with some kind of bacterial

overgrowth, and experiencing different symtpoms depending on what exact

pathogens are dominating the GI-scene.

> He gives hope of a quicker bacterial kill but it sure seems that relapse is a

very big problem.

I did two rounds of Xifaxan. They were diagnostically helpful, as they decreased

symptoms by at least 80% while on the drug, but had no long-term effect.

>I believe he thinks lack of this SI peristalsis is the underlying cause,

physiologically.

I personally suspect scar tissue from an abdominal (placental) surgery I had 1/2

-1 year before the onset om my symptoms. Scar tissue could have the effect of

interfering with normal motility.

> SI bact can eat amino acids, fatty acids and monosaccharides- all the most

broken down forms of our food)

Thanks for pointing that out! Do you include honey in your diet? Do you feel

that monosaccharides are absorbed high enough not to pose a great problem for

folks with SIBO-IBS?

> A vivonex or water fast would do this in 2 weeks.(

Would the bacteria actually disappear or would they go into " hibernation mode "

and possibly reappear when food is taken?

> I personally think the diet is very healthy- not much different then Paleo

except for dairy and honey- but it would be nice not to harm one's gut by a

transgression.

I do, too, in it's " advanced " stage, and would happily do SCD for the rest of my

life, but I am personally a bit concerned about the long-term effects of my

current extreme low-carb diet. No fruit, a minimal amount of vegetables,

obviously no grains; if I completely cut out honey as well, as one recent poster

suggested, how does my brain even get enough glucose to function optimally? I'm

basically eating fat and protein, not a great idea long-term, but eating other

foods that can't be digested anyway doesn't seem like a good alternative,

either. It would be great to hear what SCD'ers are using, if anything for

nutritional supplementation in the early stages. I'm sure many have, like

myself, been on a very restricted diet for a long time even pre-SCD.

Thanks,

Lilian

" IBS " 12 years, SCD a couple of months, perhaps

[Guest guest]

How has SCD worked for you. What, if any, modifications have you

found helpful? Any advice?

Lillian,

I had a pretty easy transition to SCD because I had spent 27 perfectly

miserable gut years having to figure out from trial and error what caused

me less trouble than other stuff. As a result, as far as basic food

went, I only had to drop rice and yams. Now, going through the

condiments and getting better fillers and stuff in supplements took quite

a bit longer!

But I felt noticeably better within a few days of dropping the starchy

stuff. My IBS has always been the mixed type, the " who knows

what kind of a day this is going to be? " type. The swings got

less, and have continued to get less. After that first few days it

felt -- I don't know, hard to describe this -- as though a deep

underlying feeling of being dreadfully ill, whether it was a good day or

a bad one, that feeling got a lot less.

Am I normal and healthy now? No, but I think I'm on my way.

Clearing out some of the trouble has allowed me to sort out and work on

my other problems, the worst being (which I didn't realize before) that I

may have total adrenal failure, or if not, very close, from all these

years of the stress from IBS, CFS, fibro, etc. I'm working on that

now, too.

So far, I am not by any means on all the foods that SCD allows. I started

SCD on July 19th. I've been allergic to dairy and eggs all my life

so I haven't felt the time has come to try them yet. I do very well

on lots of fruits and salad veggies, strangely enough; this doesn't make

a whole lot of sense for IBS but it works for me. I had twenty

years with absolutely no protein of any kind, which was dreaful in all

respects especially my hypoglycemia, and I'm still working up my servings

of protein. I still cannot eat anything but fruit before 11AM, not

without risking pain, general malaise and gut troubles all day. But

I think it will come. I am starting recently to add a bit of read meat

in. Because of no dairy, I am using probiotics, so far just l.

acidophilus. I havena't tried much with baking yet without eggs (I

tried a few shortbread type cookies, but found I had invented cookie

crumbs, they tasted good but sure were crumbly). I had almond

butter before SCD and I still do, and am using nuts now, too, almonds and

sometimes pecans and walnuts. I seem to be OK with winter squash

but I don't really care. For me, any yearnings for carbs that the

squash would fill are taken care of by nuts.

I didn't start with Intro. In spite of Marilyn's good words, of course I

figured I didn't need it, starting so close to SCD anyhow. But a

few weeks later I had an excruciating dental episode that left me pretty

much unable to open my mouth much for a few days, so I thought,

aha! Pureed soup, mashed banana, SCD gelatin, applesauce. I was on

that for a few days until the situation resolved. And, yes, intro did

help! It really calmed things down quite a lot, much more than I

would have thought it would. Intro is a very good idea, even if it seems

too daunting to start with.

By most standards my diet is very limited and boring. But that's OK, I'm

used to it. I'd rather work on healing than expanding the diet too far. I

have tried things that didn't work and it always costs me a bad day or

two. Not worth it too often. I hope soon to get more veggies back;

that's the part I really miss. Not that I don't like salad, but I'd like

some lovely steamed veggie plates, too.

In October I also started LDN at a very low dose. I've upped it

once, and now I find I have to stop increasing that and buckle down and

deal with candida. I'm not looking forward to it but it must be

done.

Because of the adrenal exhaustion, I still don't go out very much.

However, I don't have as many gut worries when I do now. A lot of times,

not really any. Of course I still know from past experience where

all the potty stops are (that I used to use to often), and I still time

my eating according to when I want to leave and not have problems, but I

think after awhile I may be able to ignore that a lot more, too. This is

long-standing habit at this point.

I really would recommend that you give SCD a try.

[Guest guest]

I have IBS-C x 35 years. Dr Pimentel's book answered the questions

left for me from BTVC. BTVC finally explained bloating- bacterial

production of gases, and the general condition/problem. From Pimentel

I finally learned about the constipation- methane producing(or

actually converting) bacteria are present in constipated patients

-the methane interacts with the gut wall to increase but reverse the

peristalsis of the small intestine!

He gives hope of a quicker bacterial kill but it sure seems that

relapse is a very big problem. He uses low dose drugs long-term to

prevent relapse by ensuring the proper movement of the SI to cleanse

away the bact trying to recolonize again. I believe he thinks lack of

this SI peristalsis is the underlying cause, physiologically.

I actually volunteered to my doctor to try Dr Pimentel's method, I

was so desperate. He said he thought the theory would work, but

cautioned that in killing off all the gut bacteria this way, it could

and probably would be harder than Dr P says to re-establish the good

ones. He suggested trying just drowning the gut in good bacteria to

see if that would help. It was about that time I found SCD, and

really, for me at least, I much prefer the slower less-drastic route.

I think they should get the same place eventually. I hadn't thought

of the relapse problem but I think there would be a good chance of

that if it's pretty hard to et the good guys back.

[Guest guest]

Well for the most part is done wonders. I eat the yogurt but have to drip it or else I can not tolerate it as I knew I was lactose intolerant before starting scd. There are certain things even scd legal that IBS'ers just can not eat, one being tomato, eggplant, and a big no no for IBS is fatty foods, so you have to be careful what you choose. Almond flour is out too much fat, fried anything is too much fat. So if you choose within the scd list and stick with low fat and always eat the yogurt you should be good. Keep a diary of what you eat and how you feel and see if anything stands out.

If you get a chance tell me more about yourself and your symptoms.

Suzanne

IBS,Diverticulor disease Re:"IBS" and/or SIBOTo: BTVC-SCD > > > > > > IBS is my title. What can I answer for you?> > > > How has SCD worked for you. What, if any, modifications have you > found helpful? Any advice?> > Thanks, !> Lilian> >

[Guest guest]

At 10:48 PM 12/29/2009, you wrote:

There are certain things even

scd legal that IBS'ers just can not eat, one being tomato, eggplant, and

a big no no for IBS is fatty foods, so you have to be careful what you

choose. Almond flour is out too much fat, fried anything is too much

fat.

Suzanne,

While I absolutely agree with you that everyone is different, and that

those foods may be things YOU cannot eat, I think it is a mistake to

generalize that to all people with IBS.

I regularly eat tomato, occasionally eat egg plant, and without a fairly

high fat intake, I'd fall over.

I love both pecan flour and almond flour items.

I generally avoid fried stuff, simply because I'm too lazy to clean up

after the frying.

However, I definitely agree with your recommendation to keep a food diary

and see....

—

Marilyn

New

Orleans, Louisiana, USA

Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

Darn Good SCD Cook

No Human Children

Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

[Guest guest]

Hi Marilyn

Yes everyone with IBS is different, however I felt the same way as you until someone of medical knowledge told me to just try avoiding those foods as they are common irritants and so reluctantly I did and found out that they were right...this condition does rule my life and I have it more severe over the years ...maybe more than most but avoiding those things as a trial is worth it to get to the next level of health. ...I think that is how Elaine got people to try SCD....and it does work for most everyone but some can add things more than others!!! I am just passing on info that was given to me and it helped me.....just like Elaine if it can help someone else well thats what its all about.

Suzanne Re: Re:"IBS" and/or SIBOTo: BTVC-SCD > At 10:48 PM 12/29/2009, you wrote:> >There are certain things even scd legal that > >IBS'ers just can not eat, one being tomato, > >eggplant, and a big no no for IBS is fatty > >foods, so you have to be careful what you > >choose. Almond flour is out too much fat, fried anything is too > much fat.> > Suzanne,> > While I absolutely agree with you that everyone > is different, and that those foods may be things > YOU cannot eat, I think it is a mistake to > generalize that to all people with IBS.> > I regularly eat tomato, occasionally eat egg > plant, and without a fairly high fat intake, I'd fall over.> > I love both pecan flour and almond flour items.> > I generally avoid fried stuff, simply because I'm > too lazy to clean up after the frying.> > However, I definitely agree with your > recommendation to keep a food diary and see....> > > — Marilyn> New Orleans, Louisiana, USA> Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001> Darn Good SCD Cook> No Human Children> Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund> >

[Guest guest]

At 12:05 PM 12/30/2009, you wrote:

Yes everyone with IBS is

different, however I felt the same way as you until someone of medical

knowledge told me to just try avoiding those foods as they are common

irritants and so reluctantly I did and found out that they were

right...

Well, I've read about avoiding night shades, and I tried low fat for

years. For me, it never worked. This is why I would avoid generalizing it

for all people with IBS.

Kim M doesn't do well with fats, for instance, but I have to deal with

nausea and all sorts of issues if I don't have the fats.

—

Marilyn

New

Orleans, Louisiana, USA

Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

Darn Good SCD Cook

No Human Children

Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

[Guest guest]

Hi Lillian,

" I personally suspect scar tissue from an abdominal (placental) surgery I had

1/2 -1 year before the onset om my symptoms. Scar tissue could have the effect

of interfering with normal motility. "

I think you are right about the scar tissue, abdominal surgery and adhesions are

very often mentioned as a cause of SIBO.

" Do you include honey in your diet? Do you feel that monosaccharides are

absorbed high enough not to pose a great problem for folks with SIBO-IBS? "

I eat honey and do fine with it(yay!). I know Pimentel's diet is mainly focused

on foods he believes to be absorbed high up. I bet some people have the bugs

high up and then they would have problems with monosacc's but I think it's most

likely for the bugs to be concentrated closer to the LI(Elaine alluded to that

with her stance against Bifidus- saying it overgrows from the LI).

How high up the bugs are should be apparent from the lactulose hydrogen breath

test- if the gas is present in the early samples, the bugs are high up.

Maybe some of the differences we see between us all and the foods we can eat are

partly due to what our bugs are able to ferment, specifically if they can do

something with the amino acids, fatty acids and monosacc's?

" Would the bacteria actually disappear or would they go into " hibernation mode "

and possibly reappear when food is taken? "

I've been wondering this myself- why 2 weeks exactly? I need to talk to a

microbiologist to understand their lifecycles. Pimentel says there's no point

in antibiotics during Vivonex because they are hibernating...hmm

" I am personally a bit concerned about the long-term effects of my current

extreme low-carb diet. No fruit, a minimal amount of vegetables, obviously no

grains;

Well what are we getting from fruit, veggies & grains- fiber, minerals,

antioxidants(and water). I take a liquid mineral supplement(from Bionativus)

and eat my fair share of almond flour which gives fiber and the antioxidant vit

E. Animal fat has fat soluable antioxidants A and D- but I take vit D

supplements too.

" if I completely cut out honey as well, as one recent poster suggested, how does

my brain even get enough glucose to function optimally? "

Our bodies make glucose from protein, it's called gluconeogenesis. About 1/2 or

a little less of our protein is turned into glucose. This is why low-carb

weight-loss books are always warning not to overeat protein- it can turn to

carbs.

The Paleo folks don't eat honey/sugars but they do eat a lot of non-starchy

veggies and low sugar fruits like berries. We're so low-carb I think the honey

is a good idea. Hopefully we'll heal enough for more veggies and fruit. They

don't eat starches(legumes, grains, starchy veggies) or dairy. It may help to

know that a lot a people are choosing a similar diet and they don't even have

our GI reason!

The premise physiologically is that our bodies haven't caught up with our

agrarian lifestyles yet(evolutionarily speaking) since we only have one hormone

to take glucose out of the blood(insulin) but many to put it into the

blood(glucagon, cortisol, epinephrine...). Therefore the idea is to burn fat as

our feul instead of sugar. Apparently the brain prefers ketone bodies(a

by-product of fat burning) to glucose anyway.

" It would be great to hear what SCD'ers are using, if anything for nutritional

supplementation in the early stages. "

I also take B vits and occasional iron since I am still anemic from my GI

malabsorption. I also take probiotics(Align- I know it's bifidus but it's the

only probiotic I've ever felt helped from over 30+ I've tried in my life- and I

debated about it for months due to Elaine's warning) and various acidophilus's

since yogurt is still iffy for me.

Thanks for your reply,

IBS-C 35 years

SCD 7 months

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

" in killing off all the gut bacteria this way, it could and probably would be

harder than Dr P says to re-establish the good ones. He suggested trying just

drowning the gut in good bacteria to see if that would help. It was about that

time I found SCD, and really, for me at least, I much prefer the slower

less-drastic route. "

I've been thinking about the good bactieria question a lot. My training stresses

the importance of good bacteria very highly.

Interestingly Dr P is quite opposed to their use since he feels that SIBO is

normal LI bacteria in the wrong SI location. He feels it will just make the SI

overgrowth worse to supplement with them. I bet most long-term SCD'ers would

say they have not had that experience. Certainly traditional peoples around the

world have ingested cultured foods of some sort(like yogurt) at every meal,

stressing the importance of constantly re-inoculating, so-to-speak.

I have also read that after being killed our gut bacteria will return to what it

was in very short order, although this applies to the species, not the location.

It seems one explanation is that the appendix serves as a protected resevoir for

bact- but the research on this is still new. And other GI doc's I know say much

the same- that self reinoculation occurs rapidly. I'd really like to get to the

bottom of this.

And lastly, there was an article in the Journal of Clinical GI(2003) discussing

a permanent cure for Ulcerative Colitis by 'human probiotic infusions', which is

an enema of stool(mixed with sterile water) from healthy, thoroughly screened

donors! The cure held for 13 years at time of printing!! Wow.

IBS-C 35 years

SCD 7 months

[Guest guest]

, here are 2 groups that answer those questions:

healingnaturallybybee.com and gapsdiet.com

they are both very helpful and we work them into our diet so that it works for

us.

We are also low oxalate, and sensitive to many foods. We have found help with

vsl#3, methyl b12, zinc, epsom salt baths, probiotic enema's, a broad spectrum

probiotic, and yeast-elimination diet for our 3yo son. contact me for more

details should you want them

Anne G

> >

> > > IBS is my title. What can I answer for you?

> > >

> >

> > How has SCD worked for you. What, if any, modifications have you found

helpful? Any advice?

> >

> > Thanks, !

> > Lilian

> >

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:29 PM 12/30/2009, you wrote:

We have found help with vsl#3,

methyl b12, zinc, epsom salt baths, probiotic enema's, a broad spectrum

probiotic, and yeast-elimination diet for our 3yo son. contact me for

more details should you want them

Please remember that VSL#3 is not SCD legal, and most likely the broad

spectrum probiotic as well.

—

Marilyn

New

Orleans, Louisiana, USA

Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

Darn Good SCD Cook

No Human Children

Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

[Guest guest]

I have also read that after being killed our gut bacteria will return

to what it was in very short order, although this applies to the

species, not the location. It seems one explanation is that the

appendix serves as a protected resevoir for bact- but the research on

this is still new. And other GI doc's I know say much the same- that

self reinoculation occurs rapidly. I'd really like to get to the

bottom of this.

That's very interesting. And raises another question for those of us

who no longer have our appendix!

[Guest guest]

Hi -

>I bet some people have the bugs high up and then they would have problems with

monosacc's

Hmm, I often get very distended in the actual stomach, with referred pain to the

thoracic spine, right after I eat. I think I'll experiment with just honey and

see how I react in that regard, that might tell me if honey would be a problem

for me even higher up in the GI-tract or if I could add it back in.

> Maybe some of the differences we see between us all and the foods we can eat

are partly due to what our bugs are able to ferment, specifically if they can do

something with the amino acids, fatty acids and monosacc's?

This seems totally plausible; we're probably dealing with slightly different

bacterial floras (or should it be faunas; they sure seem like little beasts

sometimes :^)

> eat my fair share of almond flour which gives fiber and the antioxidant vit

E. Animal fat has fat soluable antioxidants A and D- but I take vit D

supplements too.

I recently had to cut the nut flours back out, but am supplementing with E, D

and A.

> Our bodies make glucose from protein, it's called gluconeogenesis. About 1/2

or a little less of our protein is turned into glucose. This is why low-carb

weight-loss books are always warning not to overeat protein- it can turn to

carbs.

Good point, thanks!

> Therefore the idea is to burn fat as our feul instead of sugar. Apparently

the brain prefers ketone bodies(a by-product of fat burning) to glucose anyway.

The paleodiet has always seemed like to most logical way to think about food to

me, especially for us Scandinavians that have had the shortest time to adapt to

grains. There is a top-level Swedish Triathlete, Jonas Colting, who is a strong

advocate of paleodiet-inspired eating - with obviously good results!

http://www.colting.se/

Thanks for the input - it is so helpful while putting together the pieces of

this interesting puzzle!

Lilian

" IBS-C " 12 years, SCD-newbie 6 weeks perhaps?