Re: Re: Comparison from elsewhere by Felicia

[Guest guest]

Hi all! Someone asked me to post my opinion on

various procedures to

the whole group. So here I am

But, I want to stress that I am NOT a medical

professional. The only

thing I know about each procedure is what I've

researched myself,

what I've discussed with the surgeons at the ASBS

conference and what

I've seen in the form of post-ops, mostly long term

post-ops.

So this is NOT fact, nor medical advice, nor slander

towards any

particular surgeon. It is only the opinion of someone

who is post-op

and has seen and read a lot

Lap versus Open:

If I had the choice, I would go lap. A lot of open

surgeons say that

the reason open is better is because they can actually

" look at "

and " hold " all of the organs, therefore easily

detecting problems and

correcting them before they become life threatening.

Lap surgeons

say that this is simply not true, that the monitor can

see organs

better than the human eye any day, and that open

surgeons are only

saying this because they don't want to spend the time,

money and

training to perform a procedure that takes longer,

costs less money

(less $$$ in their pockets) and is expensive to start

up. It's just

not cost worthy. So those are the pros and cons of

lap vs. open,

from rumors and various surgeons. What do I

personally think???

Well, let's give the open surgeons the benefit of the

doubt. Let's

say that everything they say is true. They really can

see the organs

better, they really do feel everything and check it

out thoroughly.

Okay...now is that benefit worth the risks of the side

effects of an

open surgery? Not IMHO. The side effects can be

horrific. Open

surgeries cause an astronomical amount of adhesions

compared to lap

surgeries. A person who is prone to adhesions can get

them from

either method, lap or open, but the chances of getting

the from a lap

surgery vs. an open surgery are much, much less.

Adhesions will make

your life a living nightmare if you get them badly

enough. Handling

organs is one of the premier reasons for developing

adhesions,

supposedly. Also, the risk of hernias goes up

considerably with an

open surgery vs. a lap surgery. Some surgeons say

this is a benefit,

because you can usually get a free TT thrown in at the

time of hernia

repair. But who really wants a hernia? No one that I

know. What a

bother! And the weakened abdominal wall? No thanks.

I think open surgery can and will continue to be

performed in certain

cases, but if you qualify for lap, need the quicker

recovery, don't

carry a lot of weight in your stomach anyway and want

to avoid the

possible side effects of adhesions and hernias, lap is

the way to go.

Restrictive versus Malabsorptive:

The lap band and the VBG are restrictive-only

operations. The VBG

has a huge failure rate. Does it work for some

people, yes. Does it

work for most people, no. If the person has all of

the right

components: volume eater, not a grazer, not a big

snacker, not a

sweet eater, extreme ability to keep a commitment, did

not get MO due

to an eating disorder, but perhaps a glandular

disorder or another

disorder, it might work. There are also some really

strange side

effects of the VBG. For instance, people who were

never into sweets

suddenly find that they throw up everything except

sweets. Strange.

But it happens all the time. Wouldn't it be a shame

to go through

major surgery just to find yourself still MO because

of drinking high

calorie sweets all the time? Who wants to go through

another surgery

and feel even worse about themselves because they feel

that they

failed the surgery? Not me. I think it CAN work for

some people,

but that it probably WON'T work for most people.

Statistics seem to

support that claim.

The Lap Band is pretty ingenious. I was thrilled that

it got

approval during the ASBS conference. I really think

that this can be

the cure for a lot of overweight people. Not

necessarily MO people,

but overweight. If you have certain components, I

think the band

might work for you: Not MO, but very overweight (BMI

<35 for sure).

Volume eater. Not interested in sweets or grazing

junk food. No

history of GERD, acid reflux, indigestion, etc. Easy

access to a

surgeon or doctor who can do the fills. History of

problems with

invasive surgeries (adhesions, hernias, etc.).

Ability to keep

commitments with fills, exercise, non-grazing, only

eating sweets

rarely (like weddings, etc.). No ability to

supplement with protein

shakes and a lot of vitamins, minerals, etc. No

eating disorder (or

have overcome any eating disorder with therapy and

have been over it

for a long time).

Restrictive plus malabsorptive operations include all

of the

following:

Proximal RNY: Great for those with 100-150 lbs. to

lose. Combines a

low level of malabsorption with extreme restriction.

Good for those

who don't mind drinking protein shakes and doing a lot

of

supplementing perhaps in the first years, but don't

want to " live " on

protein shakes and pills for the rest of their lives.

Great for

sweet eaters who want the negative reinforcement of

dumping. Good

for those who are MO, but not super MO (though I have

seen some super

MO proximals get down to a normal weight, it isn't

impossible). Has

the benefit of being the " gold standard " of WLS, so a

lot of PCP's

and ER docs are going to be familiar enough with this

surgery not to

screw it up if you have an emergency and have to be

opened up. Can

be out eaten with continual grazing, and can overcome

dumping with

continual eating of sweets. Not for those who haven't

addressed

their eating disorder and have no wish to get help for

an eating

disorder.

Medial to Distal RNY: Great for the super MO. Needs

a lot of

commitment. Combines extreme malabsorption with

restriction. This

surgery can be the difference between life and death

for those who

have to take off a lot of weight, and keep it off, to

stay alive.

The commitment is great, they really must live off of

supplements,

perhaps for life. If pills and shakes don't phase

you, and you can

conform to lots of little meals, this is a great

surgery. Those in

middle age seem to do better, because they aren't as

embarrassed by

the gas and smelly BM's as the younger folks. They

also seem to have

more commitment than younger people, though not

always. This is one

of those operations that is going to change your life

utterly and

completely, so for those who have absolutely hit rock

bottom and have

nowhere else to turn and nothing else to do but go up,

I think this

surgery can save your life and turn it around.

Malnourishment is

going to be a given, if you cannot commit to taking

care of yourself

after this surgery

BPD: Only for those who absolutely have no other

choice. This

surgery is usually always done open, so you have those

side effects,

plus the extreme malabsorption. Yes, this surgery

lets people eat

relatively normal meals, but malabsorbs almost

everything eaten

except sugar. Supplements will be a part of daily

life, forever. Of

all of the post-ops I have ever seen, BPD post-ops

look the worst.

Usually they have a gray or pasty appearance. Their

immune system

seems shot, so they get huge sores on their skin if

they don't take

their supplements. Sores that don't want to heal.

Sometimes their

eyes are yellow, their skin looks jaundiced. They

always seem in the

process of losing hair. Either they have just gotten

over losing, or

are just very thin on top. I have only met one long

term post-op BPD

who did not have thin hair; thin enough to see the

entire scalp.

These people just do not look good, no matter how much

they can eat.

But if you have an eating disorder that you cannot

and/or will not

face and overcome, the BPD might be your only chance

at a relatively

normal life. You really can eat more than a post-op

RNY should ever

be able to eat. You can eat sweets and junk food, you

can eat and

drink together with ease. You will be like a

relatively normal

person in those aspects. But I have never seen a BPD

who got to

goal, despite all of the malabsorption. So is it

worth it? For

some, yes, because it is their only chance. Most of

the BPD's I've

seen are still obese, if not MO. Most look very

ragged and sickly.

But they are alive, versus being dead if they'd done

nothing. I

would say that the distal RNY would be better for

these people, but

some just can't seem to address or overcome their

eating disorder,

and they could easily kill themselves with the small

pouch of the

RNY, whereas the BPD allows them to eat more, and even

binge in a

small way. The gas and BM's are usually out of this

world. They can

clear a room, some say.

DS: This surgery is just coming into it's own

maturity. It CAN

usually be done lap, so that it is a plus. It is

similar to the BPD

in that it offers greater food volume, no dumping and

some surgeons

allow drinking when eating. Unfortunately, it has all

of the

malabsorption of a distal bypass, so again, the

concerns over

malnouishment. Surgeons are just now starting to

realize that the

DSer's are going to have to supplement in a big way.

Before this

latest conference, surgeons were telling their

patients that they

could get all of their nutritional needs out of their

food, because

of the big pouch, but this is proving to be false.

People who were

not willing to make a commitment are now being forced

to face that

possibility. One of the beauties of the DS was the

higher weight

loss. They could take off about 5% more than the

RNYer's. Surgeons

thought they would keep it off better, too, but it was

addressed that

this is proving not to be true either. So not only do

they get the

malabsorption, but their weight loss over time is

turning out to be

not much better than the RNYer's after all. As more

time passes, I'm

sure that things will be tweaked with the DS. As it

stands now, I

would say that if you are super MO and need the

extreme bypass, but

still want to eat relatively normal meals, and sweets,

but don't mind

the gas or BM's and can keep a big commitment, this

might be the

surgery for you. If you cannot keep a commitment, if

you don't want

to be bothered with supplements and protein shakes,

think this over

carefully before jumping in with both feet. Never

take any opinion

by anyone, surgeon or not, as 100% fact, because they

are changing

their minds all the time, as more data becomes

available. If a

surgeon tries to sell you the DS as a miracle surgery

where you will

be more or less normal, and not have to supplement,

think very, very

carefully about what he is saying. Next year he might

call you up

and tell you he made a grave error saying you didn't

have to

supplement. Then will you be up to the challenge of

changing your

life once again? Because I truly believe that these

people are going

to need long term supplementation to stay healthy and

alive. I have

seen too many of them in malnourisment, when they were

guaranteed

that they wouldn't need additional supplementation.

Nooowwwww, all of this being said, what procedure did

I have? I had

the proximal lap RNY. But, I didn't have a choice. I

was in vital

organ failure when I had my surgery, this was the only

surgical

choice I was given. If I had to do it all over, what

would I

choose? Well, knowing me, knowing my eating style, my

ability to

commit, my monetary situation, ability to travel, etc.

I would

probably not choose a malabsorptive procedure at all.

I would

probably go with the Lap Band, knowing all that I know

now. I am NOT

unhappy with the RNY, don't get me wrong, I am

ecstatic with it,

happier than I ever thought I could be in a lifetime,

but just given

the ideal circumstances and the ideal personal

situation and in

hindsight, etc, etc.

Once again, I want to reiterate that this is all just

MY opinion.

Not the opinion of surgeons or doctors, not FACT.

Even some of the

stats I quoted were just things I got off of the

Internet and at the

conference on displays set up for anyone to read.

Stats are often

wrong, can be manipulated to fit a certain purpose.

And a lot of

what I said above are just my personal observations

having spent

years on these support groups and meeting hundreds of

post-ops over

time. I have absolutely no expertise whatsoever. I

wouldn't even

consider myself a layman, but rather just a Bariatric

enthusiast, or

patient advocate, so to speak.

Please do NOT print off what I have written and run to

your surgeon

or doctor in alarm, handing him over my e-mail and

terrorizing him

with the " facts " that I have typed up, because they

are NOT facts,

just opinion. I do what works for me, I tell what I

see and hear and

read, but these are all just from a post-op

perspective. I am not

claiming anything other than having an opinion, which

of course, we

all have.

Love,

Felicia

258/130

http://hometown.aol.com/felicialee/myhomepage/index.html

" My worst day post-op was better than my best day

pre-op " --Author

unknown

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administration, web design & programming and much

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located

in Brooklyn, Manhattan & Montvale, NJ.

For more information call 1-866-LASCOMP or visit:

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[Guest guest]

Hi all! Someone asked me to post my opinion on

various procedures to

the whole group. So here I am

But, I want to stress that I am NOT a medical

professional. The only

thing I know about each procedure is what I've

researched myself,

what I've discussed with the surgeons at the ASBS

conference and what

I've seen in the form of post-ops, mostly long term

post-ops.

So this is NOT fact, nor medical advice, nor slander

towards any

particular surgeon. It is only the opinion of someone

who is post-op

and has seen and read a lot

Lap versus Open:

If I had the choice, I would go lap. A lot of open

surgeons say that

the reason open is better is because they can actually

" look at "

and " hold " all of the organs, therefore easily

detecting problems and

correcting them before they become life threatening.

Lap surgeons

say that this is simply not true, that the monitor can

see organs

better than the human eye any day, and that open

surgeons are only

saying this because they don't want to spend the time,

money and

training to perform a procedure that takes longer,

costs less money

(less $$$ in their pockets) and is expensive to start

up. It's just

not cost worthy. So those are the pros and cons of

lap vs. open,

from rumors and various surgeons. What do I

personally think???

Well, let's give the open surgeons the benefit of the

doubt. Let's

say that everything they say is true. They really can

see the organs

better, they really do feel everything and check it

out thoroughly.

Okay...now is that benefit worth the risks of the side

effects of an

open surgery? Not IMHO. The side effects can be

horrific. Open

surgeries cause an astronomical amount of adhesions

compared to lap

surgeries. A person who is prone to adhesions can get

them from

either method, lap or open, but the chances of getting

the from a lap

surgery vs. an open surgery are much, much less.

Adhesions will make

your life a living nightmare if you get them badly

enough. Handling

organs is one of the premier reasons for developing

adhesions,

supposedly. Also, the risk of hernias goes up

considerably with an

open surgery vs. a lap surgery. Some surgeons say

this is a benefit,

because you can usually get a free TT thrown in at the

time of hernia

repair. But who really wants a hernia? No one that I

know. What a

bother! And the weakened abdominal wall? No thanks.

I think open surgery can and will continue to be

performed in certain

cases, but if you qualify for lap, need the quicker

recovery, don't

carry a lot of weight in your stomach anyway and want

to avoid the

possible side effects of adhesions and hernias, lap is

the way to go.

Restrictive versus Malabsorptive:

The lap band and the VBG are restrictive-only

operations. The VBG

has a huge failure rate. Does it work for some

people, yes. Does it

work for most people, no. If the person has all of

the right

components: volume eater, not a grazer, not a big

snacker, not a

sweet eater, extreme ability to keep a commitment, did

not get MO due

to an eating disorder, but perhaps a glandular

disorder or another

disorder, it might work. There are also some really

strange side

effects of the VBG. For instance, people who were

never into sweets

suddenly find that they throw up everything except

sweets. Strange.

But it happens all the time. Wouldn't it be a shame

to go through

major surgery just to find yourself still MO because

of drinking high

calorie sweets all the time? Who wants to go through

another surgery

and feel even worse about themselves because they feel

that they

failed the surgery? Not me. I think it CAN work for

some people,

but that it probably WON'T work for most people.

Statistics seem to

support that claim.

The Lap Band is pretty ingenious. I was thrilled that

it got

approval during the ASBS conference. I really think

that this can be

the cure for a lot of overweight people. Not

necessarily MO people,

but overweight. If you have certain components, I

think the band

might work for you: Not MO, but very overweight (BMI

<35 for sure).

Volume eater. Not interested in sweets or grazing

junk food. No

history of GERD, acid reflux, indigestion, etc. Easy

access to a

surgeon or doctor who can do the fills. History of

problems with

invasive surgeries (adhesions, hernias, etc.).

Ability to keep

commitments with fills, exercise, non-grazing, only

eating sweets

rarely (like weddings, etc.). No ability to

supplement with protein

shakes and a lot of vitamins, minerals, etc. No

eating disorder (or

have overcome any eating disorder with therapy and

have been over it

for a long time).

Restrictive plus malabsorptive operations include all

of the

following:

Proximal RNY: Great for those with 100-150 lbs. to

lose. Combines a

low level of malabsorption with extreme restriction.

Good for those

who don't mind drinking protein shakes and doing a lot

of

supplementing perhaps in the first years, but don't

want to " live " on

protein shakes and pills for the rest of their lives.

Great for

sweet eaters who want the negative reinforcement of

dumping. Good

for those who are MO, but not super MO (though I have

seen some super

MO proximals get down to a normal weight, it isn't

impossible). Has

the benefit of being the " gold standard " of WLS, so a

lot of PCP's

and ER docs are going to be familiar enough with this

surgery not to

screw it up if you have an emergency and have to be

opened up. Can

be out eaten with continual grazing, and can overcome

dumping with

continual eating of sweets. Not for those who haven't

addressed

their eating disorder and have no wish to get help for

an eating

disorder.

Medial to Distal RNY: Great for the super MO. Needs

a lot of

commitment. Combines extreme malabsorption with

restriction. This

surgery can be the difference between life and death

for those who

have to take off a lot of weight, and keep it off, to

stay alive.

The commitment is great, they really must live off of

supplements,

perhaps for life. If pills and shakes don't phase

you, and you can

conform to lots of little meals, this is a great

surgery. Those in

middle age seem to do better, because they aren't as

embarrassed by

the gas and smelly BM's as the younger folks. They

also seem to have

more commitment than younger people, though not

always. This is one

of those operations that is going to change your life

utterly and

completely, so for those who have absolutely hit rock

bottom and have

nowhere else to turn and nothing else to do but go up,

I think this

surgery can save your life and turn it around.

Malnourishment is

going to be a given, if you cannot commit to taking

care of yourself

after this surgery

BPD: Only for those who absolutely have no other

choice. This

surgery is usually always done open, so you have those

side effects,

plus the extreme malabsorption. Yes, this surgery

lets people eat

relatively normal meals, but malabsorbs almost

everything eaten

except sugar. Supplements will be a part of daily

life, forever. Of

all of the post-ops I have ever seen, BPD post-ops

look the worst.

Usually they have a gray or pasty appearance. Their

immune system

seems shot, so they get huge sores on their skin if

they don't take

their supplements. Sores that don't want to heal.

Sometimes their

eyes are yellow, their skin looks jaundiced. They

always seem in the

process of losing hair. Either they have just gotten

over losing, or

are just very thin on top. I have only met one long

term post-op BPD

who did not have thin hair; thin enough to see the

entire scalp.

These people just do not look good, no matter how much

they can eat.

But if you have an eating disorder that you cannot

and/or will not

face and overcome, the BPD might be your only chance

at a relatively

normal life. You really can eat more than a post-op

RNY should ever

be able to eat. You can eat sweets and junk food, you

can eat and

drink together with ease. You will be like a

relatively normal

person in those aspects. But I have never seen a BPD

who got to

goal, despite all of the malabsorption. So is it

worth it? For

some, yes, because it is their only chance. Most of

the BPD's I've

seen are still obese, if not MO. Most look very

ragged and sickly.

But they are alive, versus being dead if they'd done

nothing. I

would say that the distal RNY would be better for

these people, but

some just can't seem to address or overcome their

eating disorder,

and they could easily kill themselves with the small

pouch of the

RNY, whereas the BPD allows them to eat more, and even

binge in a

small way. The gas and BM's are usually out of this

world. They can

clear a room, some say.

DS: This surgery is just coming into it's own

maturity. It CAN

usually be done lap, so that it is a plus. It is

similar to the BPD

in that it offers greater food volume, no dumping and

some surgeons

allow drinking when eating. Unfortunately, it has all

of the

malabsorption of a distal bypass, so again, the

concerns over

malnouishment. Surgeons are just now starting to

realize that the

DSer's are going to have to supplement in a big way.

Before this

latest conference, surgeons were telling their

patients that they

could get all of their nutritional needs out of their

food, because

of the big pouch, but this is proving to be false.

People who were

not willing to make a commitment are now being forced

to face that

possibility. One of the beauties of the DS was the

higher weight

loss. They could take off about 5% more than the

RNYer's. Surgeons

thought they would keep it off better, too, but it was

addressed that

this is proving not to be true either. So not only do

they get the

malabsorption, but their weight loss over time is

turning out to be

not much better than the RNYer's after all. As more

time passes, I'm

sure that things will be tweaked with the DS. As it

stands now, I

would say that if you are super MO and need the

extreme bypass, but

still want to eat relatively normal meals, and sweets,

but don't mind

the gas or BM's and can keep a big commitment, this

might be the

surgery for you. If you cannot keep a commitment, if

you don't want

to be bothered with supplements and protein shakes,

think this over

carefully before jumping in with both feet. Never

take any opinion

by anyone, surgeon or not, as 100% fact, because they

are changing

their minds all the time, as more data becomes

available. If a

surgeon tries to sell you the DS as a miracle surgery

where you will

be more or less normal, and not have to supplement,

think very, very

carefully about what he is saying. Next year he might

call you up

and tell you he made a grave error saying you didn't

have to

supplement. Then will you be up to the challenge of

changing your

life once again? Because I truly believe that these

people are going

to need long term supplementation to stay healthy and

alive. I have

seen too many of them in malnourisment, when they were

guaranteed

that they wouldn't need additional supplementation.

Nooowwwww, all of this being said, what procedure did

I have? I had

the proximal lap RNY. But, I didn't have a choice. I

was in vital

organ failure when I had my surgery, this was the only

surgical

choice I was given. If I had to do it all over, what

would I

choose? Well, knowing me, knowing my eating style, my

ability to

commit, my monetary situation, ability to travel, etc.

I would

probably not choose a malabsorptive procedure at all.

I would

probably go with the Lap Band, knowing all that I know

now. I am NOT

unhappy with the RNY, don't get me wrong, I am

ecstatic with it,

happier than I ever thought I could be in a lifetime,

but just given

the ideal circumstances and the ideal personal

situation and in

hindsight, etc, etc.

Once again, I want to reiterate that this is all just

MY opinion.

Not the opinion of surgeons or doctors, not FACT.

Even some of the

stats I quoted were just things I got off of the

Internet and at the

conference on displays set up for anyone to read.

Stats are often

wrong, can be manipulated to fit a certain purpose.

And a lot of

what I said above are just my personal observations

having spent

years on these support groups and meeting hundreds of

post-ops over

time. I have absolutely no expertise whatsoever. I

wouldn't even

consider myself a layman, but rather just a Bariatric

enthusiast, or

patient advocate, so to speak.

Please do NOT print off what I have written and run to

your surgeon

or doctor in alarm, handing him over my e-mail and

terrorizing him

with the " facts " that I have typed up, because they

are NOT facts,

just opinion. I do what works for me, I tell what I

see and hear and

read, but these are all just from a post-op

perspective. I am not

claiming anything other than having an opinion, which

of course, we

all have.

Love,

Felicia

258/130

http://hometown.aol.com/felicialee/myhomepage/index.html

" My worst day post-op was better than my best day

pre-op " --Author

unknown

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

GET CERTIFIED NOW! LasComp Institute has affordable

courses

in your choice of computer fields including

networking, database

administration, web design & programming and much

more. Free

unlimited lab time, job placement assistance and

guaranteed

certification or free repeat of course. Conveniently

located

in Brooklyn, Manhattan & Montvale, NJ.

For more information call 1-866-LASCOMP or visit:

http://www.lascomp.com

AOL: http://www.lascomp.com " >Click Here

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[Guest guest]

The information provided regarding the weight loss from the DS being only 5%

more than RNY and patients not sustaining weight loss is in direct conflict

with the information I have received from the conference. I find nothing to

support this in the conference abstracts. Therefore I have little

confidence in this information unless the author/s and titles of the studies

providing this information are posted and I can review the validity of same.

in Seattle

----- Original Message -----

> Hi all! Someone asked me to post my opinion on

> various procedures to

> the whole group. So here I am

> DS:

>

.. One of the beauties of the DS was the

> higher weight

> loss. They could take off about 5% more than the

> RNYer's. Surgeons

> thought they would keep it off better, too, but it was

> addressed that

> this is proving not to be true either. So not only do

> they get the

> malabsorption, but their weight loss over time is

> turning out to be

> not much better than the RNYer's after all.

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Comparison from elsewhere by Felicia

Felicia wrote:

> Surgeons are just now starting to realize that the DSer's are going to

have

> to supplement in a big way. Before this latest conference, surgeons were

> telling their patients that they could get all of their nutritional needs

> out of their food, because of the big pouch, but this is proving to be

false.

This is absolutely not true. I've been deeply involved in the DS community

for over two years now, and have never, ever heard of a DS surgeon telling a

patient that they don't need to take daily vitamins. I have never, ever

heard of a DS surgeon claiming that we can meet all our nutritional needs

strictly via food sources.

> People who were not willing to make a commitment are now being forced to

face

> that possibility.

DS patients have ALWAYS been told they needed to take daily vitamins and get

regular labs taken to monitor nutrient and other levels. This is nothing

new.

> One of the beauties of the DS was the higher weight loss. They could take

> off about 5% more than the RNYer's. Surgeons thought they would keep it

off

> better, too, but it was addressed that this is proving not to be true

either.

It depends which RNY study you look at. The DS studies have consistently

shown excess weight loss of 70-80% over the long-term, with little or no

regain of weight. I haven't seen any RNY studies with comparable long-term

(5+ years) numbers. I'd love to see such a study if anyone can produce it.

Also would like to see ANY study of the DS that shows significant regain of

weight -- so far, there have been none to indicate that.

> So not only do they get the malabsorption, but their weight loss over time

> is turning out to be not much better than the RNYer's after all. As more

> time passes, I'm sure that things will be tweaked with the DS.

Studies, please, Felicia! If you're going to make statements such as these

that dispute all the long-term data that exist on the DS, you must be able

to back these claims up with hard clinical data. Can you do that?

> If a surgeon tries to sell you the DS as a miracle surgery where you will

> be more or less normal, and not have to supplement, think very, very

> carefully about what he is saying. Next year he might call you up

> and tell you he made a grave error saying you didn't have to supplement.

Again, this assertion is fantasy. As the site administrator of the DS

website for the past 2+ years, I have communicated with most of the DS

surgeons. I have also communicated with thousands of DS patients, from all

the surgeons. I have NEVER, EVER heard of a SINGLE surgeon or patient who

was under the impression that supplementation was unnecessary after the DS.

> Then will you be up to the challenge of changing your life once again?

> Because I truly believe that these people are going to need long term

> supplementation to stay healthy and alive. I have seen too many of

> them in malnourisment, when they were guaranteed that they wouldn't

> need additional supplementation.

I beg you -- please direct me to *any* DS patient who was " guaranteed that

they wouldn't need additional supplementation " . I simply don't believe this,

and I cannot believe that you do!

M.

http://www.duodenalswitch.com/Patients/_M_/melanie_m_.html

---

in Valrico, FL, age 38

Starting weight 299, now 156

Starting BMI 49.7, now 26.0

Lap DGB/DS by Dr. Rabkin 10-19-99

http://www.duodenalswitch.com

Direct replies: mailto:melanie@...

_________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/23/2001 8:26:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

thepflanz@... writes:

<< http://hometown.aol.com/felicialee/myhomepage/index.html >>

It's a good thing opinions are like a**holes. Everyone's got one.

Kim B.

[Guest guest]

You know I have listen and read everything everybody writes and I think the world of all of you, but whether or not you agree with Felicia, if you read her email again...the woman repeated a couple of times...in great length that she is not a layman and all that she wrote was only her opinion....I don't think there any need for any of us to be rude even if we venomously disagree with each other....nobody is an a**hole here....we are all on a quest and a journey and we each define it by our own experiences...The bottom line is that you shouldn't take anybody's word for the truth and the whole truth....everybody needs to research....We should never attack each other...we have too many "normal sized" people to do that for us...enough of that

Everybody keep the faith

Cindy

[Guest guest]

melanie, will you have more surgery or are you just taking vitamins.

[Guest guest]

I guess its like chevy vs. Ford,lol!

[Guest guest]

Cindy, I totally agree with you. I want to hear everything weather its true

or not. Our bodies are all different and each one of us is going to have a

different journey.

[Guest guest]

Hi

Anybody who is looking to do any surgery needs to do research...I mean look...Most people on this site are biased toward the surgery that works for them...Felicia is no different except she is pro RNY....I read what she wrote...don't agree but her opinion is HER opinion...I have read too much to agree with her and you have experienced too much to either....How she affects newbies is negotiable...who in there right mind would not read everything they can get their hands on to make a decision about something this serious? The thing is to gather all the info you find and listen to those who have gone before you and make an informed decision...You are a cool lady...with a good head on your shoulders....let's assume that you are not alone....and as for Felicia..good luck to her...and I'm still checking it all out....

Cindy

[Guest guest]

mary:

i would be interested to know that facts about this statement. if this is true, i would be crazy to do the ds with a dmi of 40. this is one of my main motivations for ds. long term weight loss.

cheryl

[Guest guest]

After reading this over several times, communicating with other attendees at

the conference, and now reading 's response, I believe that it is

very irresponsible of you to repost this flawed/false information on

multiple sites.

I think you owe the multiple lists you sent this to a retraction and

apology.

in Seattle

----- Original Message -----

[Guest guest]

Kathie, I don't see anything " flameable " in your message, so I am forwarding

it to the group. Maybe Pflanz Leonard will let us know which grour or groups

Felicia sent her " comparison " post to, so that we can go and rebut her

message. It's a shame to see this type of misinformation being disseminated.

Re: Re: Comparison from elsewhere by Felicia

Importance: High

I totally support what has said in this post. Unfortunately, this

post was sent to many other WLS groups that I belong to. I did not comment

in those forums because they have a tendency to be on the bias about RNY and

I do not like to create controversy. It is a concern of mine that pre-ops

that will read this post, are like me when I was pre-op. I was " a sponge

for information " when I sorted through information when I made my surgery

decision. There are three different surgeries because one size may not fit

all. It is OK to be passionate about your own choice. However, when you

trash another choice with faulty or unsubstantiated data, I find that

unsettling.

I think back about how important getting information meant to me. How

" old-timers " like you , Duffy, Kris, Kim, Kathleen, Lori and just so

many others helped me. I was recalcitrant, afraid and in need of help. I

can not describe how the information I received helped me through this

process. You have always been someone who has been careful to filter her

information and base it on fact.

I am not trying to get anything started, I only want to emphasis that

information needs to be accurate and substantiated to be of any value to the

person absorbing it.

As far as the line about " Surgeons are just now starting to realize that the

DSer's are going to have to supplement in a big way " . Dr. Gagner handed me

a big booklet describing what supplements I needed to take with my DS

surgery. I met and had independent access to his nutritionist who

emphasized all those things with me. Other members of this group who have

other surgeons, all have the same or similar experience with regard to

nutritional information about supplements. I took a lot of supplements for

my better health before surgery, and I continue after. No big deal.

My two cents.

Kathie from MD

Lap DS - Dr. Gagner 9/12/00

_________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Felicia's e-mail address is:

felicialee@...

Perhaps she needs some feedback about the misinformation she has written and

now has been circulated throughout the WLS lists.

in Seattle

----- Original Message -----

> Kathie, I don't see anything " flameable " in your message, so I am

forwarding

> it to the group. Maybe Pflanz Leonard will let us know which grour or

groups

> Felicia sent her " comparison " post to, so that we can go and rebut her

> message. It's a shame to see this type of misinformation being

disseminated.

[Guest guest]

Anyone with Felicia's lack of understanding ought to be very careful about sending out such detailed false information. It is clearly biased against the DS and pro RNY. Give you 3 guesses as to which surgery Felicia had and which she promotes -- and the first 2 guesses don't count.

Felicia is very well known to be extremely dynamic in person and promotes the RNY. And to be honest about my opinion, I don't think for one minute she was trying to be remotely fair in her post.

in Seattle

Re: Re: Comparison from elsewhere by Felicia

You know I have listen and read everything everybody writes and I think the world of all of you, but whether or not you agree with Felicia, if you read her email again...the woman repeated a couple of times...in great length that she is not a layman and all that she wrote was only her opinion....I don't think there any need for any of us to be rude even if we venomously disagree with each other....nobody is an a**hole here....we are all on a quest and a journey and we each define it by our own experiences...The bottom line is that you shouldn't take anybody's word for the truth and the whole truth....everybody needs to research....We should never attack each other...we have too many "normal sized" people to do that for us...enough of that Everybody keep the faith Cindy ----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

> Re: Re: Comparison from elsewhere by Felicia

>

>

> melanie, will you have more surgery or are you just taking vitamins.

I'm not sure what you are asking. I do not plan on having any more surgery.

Do you mean cosmetic surgery, or what? My Lap DS surgery was performed on

October 19, 1999. Since several months pre-op, I have strictly maintained my

daily vitamin regimen, comprised of the following:

- 1 Niferex PN Forte (prescription prenatal multi-vitamin/mineral tablet) -

taken at midday on empty stomach

- 1260mg Citracal+D per day (two tablets after breakfast, two tablets after

dinner)

Dr. Rabkin recommends at least 1800mg of calcium per day. The prenatal gives

me 250mg, the Citracal+D gives me 1260mg, for a total of 1510mg of callicum

per day from pills. I easily get the remainder plus more each day through

food sources.

My regular labs have consistently shown nutrients and other indicators in

the normal range. I'm healthy - yeah! Probably healthier now than I ever was

pre-op.

M.

---

in Valrico, FL, age 38

Starting weight 299, now 156

Starting BMI 49.7, now 26.0

Lap DGB/DS by Dr. Rabkin 10-19-99

http://www.duodenalswitch.com

Direct replies: mailto:melanie@...

_________________________________________________________