CHILL OUT about Felicia's Opinion!

[Guest guest]

Jesus Christ, will you all chill out about Felicia's post??? In case

you forgot, I will quote what she ended her post with (as well as a

statement of similar sentiment at the beginning of her post):

" Once again, I want to reiterate that this is all just MY opinion.

Not the opinion of surgeons or doctors, not FACT. Even some of the

stats I quoted were just things I got off of the Internet and at the

conference on displays set up for anyone to read. Stats are often

wrong, can be manipulated to fit a certain purpose. And a lot of

what I said above are just my personal observations having spent

years on these support groups and meeting hundreds of post-ops over

time. I have absolutely no expertise whatsoever. "

The opinions she stated were formed by things in her experience. In

no way is she trying to propogate misinformation to anyone. I

personally know Felicia, and she is very strong minded. You can write

and flame her all you want, but she knows she can offend people with

her opinions, but if she truly believes in something, she will not

apologize for it. She has done TONS of research and met MANY patients

over the years, and her experience has led her to these opinions.

And as far as having lunch with her in 10-15 years and her eating " a

teaspoonful or so of chicken to mush and wish you could drink during

meals. " She is about 3 years post-op now, and she can eat a healthy

but not excessive portion. She can also drink during meals. To make

that statement about her just because of what she said about her

surgery is as just as offensive as so many of you found Felicia's

post. And it's just plain misinformation to state that the RNY life

is like that. None of these surgeries follow one mold. Experiences

differ greatly among people with the exact same procedure.

I personally don't think any of us should be drinking with meals. It

is my OPINION that drinking with meals:

1) fills room in the stomach that would better be used for protein

that we need

2) washes food through the stomach faster, leading one be able to eat

more at one sitting and to be hungry sooner

3) CAN lead to stretching the stomach and/or the intestines below the

connection to the stomach

I had a failed proximal RNY 3 years ago (lost 120lbs, gained back

75lbs. I converted to the BPD/DS last month. I don't plan to drink

while eating for the reasons above. I know that some people can do it

with no problems and remain thin, but obviously I was not one of them

with my RNY (yes, I COULD drink while eating after my RNY with no

problems other than it let me eat too damned much). I believe these

same pitfalls can occur with the post-op BPD/DS stomach, so I don't

want to make the same mistakes this time.

Anyway, that is MY OPINION on that subject, and I sure hope my

OPINION doesn't evoke the same heated passion as Felicia's, even if

it's different from yours.

[Guest guest]

Sharon, why don't you chill out. Not everyone cares

about Felicia's or your opinion. If certain people

ask her on a individual basis than fine, give them

your thoughts one on one. Just don't express your non

desired opinion to everyone! She should no better and

well so should you.

--- Sharon sharon1188@...> wrote:

> Jesus Christ, will you all chill out about Felicia's

> post??? In case

> you forgot, I will quote what she ended her post

> with (as well as a

> statement of similar sentiment at the beginning of

> her post):

>

> " Once again, I want to reiterate that this is all

> just MY opinion.

> Not the opinion of surgeons or doctors, not FACT.

> Even some of the

> stats I quoted were just things I got off of the

> Internet and at the

> conference on displays set up for anyone to read.

> Stats are often

> wrong, can be manipulated to fit a certain purpose.

> And a lot of

> what I said above are just my personal observations

> having spent

> years on these support groups and meeting hundreds

> of post-ops over

> time. I have absolutely no expertise whatsoever. "

>

> The opinions she stated were formed by things in her

> experience. In

> no way is she trying to propogate misinformation to

> anyone. I

> personally know Felicia, and she is very strong

> minded. You can write

> and flame her all you want, but she knows she can

> offend people with

> her opinions, but if she truly believes in

> something, she will not

> apologize for it. She has done TONS of research and

> met MANY patients

> over the years, and her experience has led her to

> these opinions.

>

> And as far as having lunch with her in 10-15 years

> and her eating " a

> teaspoonful or so of chicken to mush and wish you

> could drink during

> meals. " She is about 3 years post-op now, and she

> can eat a healthy

> but not excessive portion. She can also drink during

> meals. To make

> that statement about her just because of what she

> said about her

> surgery is as just as offensive as so many of you

> found Felicia's

> post. And it's just plain misinformation to state

> that the RNY life

> is like that. None of these surgeries follow one

> mold. Experiences

> differ greatly among people with the exact same

> procedure.

>

> I personally don't think any of us should be

> drinking with meals. It

> is my OPINION that drinking with meals:

>

> 1) fills room in the stomach that would better be

> used for protein

> that we need

> 2) washes food through the stomach faster, leading

> one be able to eat

> more at one sitting and to be hungry sooner

> 3) CAN lead to stretching the stomach and/or the

> intestines below the

> connection to the stomach

>

> I had a failed proximal RNY 3 years ago (lost

> 120lbs, gained back

> 75lbs. I converted to the BPD/DS last month. I don't

> plan to drink

> while eating for the reasons above. I know that some

> people can do it

> with no problems and remain thin, but obviously I

> was not one of them

> with my RNY (yes, I COULD drink while eating after

> my RNY with no

> problems other than it let me eat too damned much).

> I believe these

> same pitfalls can occur with the post-op BPD/DS

> stomach, so I don't

> want to make the same mistakes this time.

>

> Anyway, that is MY OPINION on that subject, and I

> sure hope my

> OPINION doesn't evoke the same heated passion as

> Felicia's, even if

> it's different from yours.

>

>

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

OK, I give..

exactly WHAT experience has Felicia had with the DS? And drinking

with meals is OK with the DS.. Jesus Christ, quit being so

oversentive.. If Felicia can post HER opinions, and you can post YOUR

opinions.. then I will CONTINUE posting MY opinions.. if that bothers

you.. I'm sorry. But this group is about posting truths, not

lies.. and her " opinions " are patently false.

My .02.

Liane

> Jesus Christ, will you all chill out about Felicia's post??? In case

> you forgot, I will quote what she ended her post with (as well as a

> statement of similar sentiment at the beginning of her post):

>

> " Once again, I want to reiterate that this is all just MY opinion.

> Not the opinion of surgeons or doctors, not FACT. Even some of the

> stats I quoted were just things I got off of the Internet and at the

> conference on displays set up for anyone to read. Stats are often

> wrong, can be manipulated to fit a certain purpose. And a lot of

> what I said above are just my personal observations having spent

> years on these support groups and meeting hundreds of post-ops over

> time. I have absolutely no expertise whatsoever. "

>

> The opinions she stated were formed by things in her experience. In

> no way is she trying to propogate misinformation to anyone. I

> personally know Felicia, and she is very strong minded. You can

write

> and flame her all you want, but she knows she can offend people with

> her opinions, but if she truly believes in something, she will not

> apologize for it. She has done TONS of research and met MANY

patients

> over the years, and her experience has led her to these opinions.

>

> And as far as having lunch with her in 10-15 years and her eating " a

> teaspoonful or so of chicken to mush and wish you could drink during

> meals. " She is about 3 years post-op now, and she can eat a healthy

> but not excessive portion. She can also drink during meals. To make

> that statement about her just because of what she said about her

> surgery is as just as offensive as so many of you found Felicia's

> post. And it's just plain misinformation to state that the RNY life

> is like that. None of these surgeries follow one mold. Experiences

> differ greatly among people with the exact same procedure.

>

> I personally don't think any of us should be drinking with meals. It

> is my OPINION that drinking with meals:

>

> 1) fills room in the stomach that would better be used for protein

> that we need

> 2) washes food through the stomach faster, leading one be able to

eat

> more at one sitting and to be hungry sooner

> 3) CAN lead to stretching the stomach and/or the intestines below

the

> connection to the stomach

>

> I had a failed proximal RNY 3 years ago (lost 120lbs, gained back

> 75lbs. I converted to the BPD/DS last month. I don't plan to drink

> while eating for the reasons above. I know that some people can do

it

> with no problems and remain thin, but obviously I was not one of

them

> with my RNY (yes, I COULD drink while eating after my RNY with no

> problems other than it let me eat too damned much). I believe these

> same pitfalls can occur with the post-op BPD/DS stomach, so I don't

> want to make the same mistakes this time.

>

> Anyway, that is MY OPINION on that subject, and I sure hope my

> OPINION doesn't evoke the same heated passion as Felicia's, even if

> it's different from yours.

[Guest guest]

" If Felicia can post HER opinions, "

SHE DID NOT POST TO THIS GROUP. SHE POSTED HER OPINIONS ON ANOTHER

GROUP. SHE IS NOT A MEMBER HERE. WHAT LEONARD DID IS AGAINST THE

RULES OF THIS GROUP.

Leonard likes post stuff like this because he is a pot stirrer. He

likes to get everyone going and then sits back a has a good laugh.

IGNORE anything he/she posts. Skip over it. It is not got anything

to do with anything we want to hear or read about. Loves the flame

wars.

Viau

-60 pounds forever

Dr Ren

[Guest guest]

If she "ain't makin stuff up", then why, praytell, is all of her "information" radically different from published research studies?

An opinion is an opinion... don't call it "facts" unless you can cite the medical journal it came from.

....but then, how could established medical journals in the fields of weight loss surgery compete with the vast knowledge of one postop RnY with a computer...?

I dont call what Felicia wrote an opinion either...and when you post any email, you should assume it will go anywhere...its the one rule that is listed in the top ten...never write what you dont want to go around....

Opinions are fine...but dont state fact if you dont know what you're talking about and haven't had it done yourself.

~~* AJ *~~

BMI 59

INSURANCE: NW Washington Medical (Regence )

DR Heap, Richland WA

Denied due to exclusion, denied appeal 6/7/01

going self pay - Dr Baltasar Spain

Bellingham Support for WLS

WWW.lookin2bthin.homestead.com

[Guest guest]

The poster I was replying to was reacting as if ..

Oh, forget it..

> " If Felicia can post HER opinions, "

>

> SHE DID NOT POST TO THIS GROUP. SHE POSTED HER OPINIONS ON ANOTHER

> GROUP. SHE IS NOT A MEMBER HERE. WHAT LEONARD DID IS AGAINST THE

> RULES OF THIS GROUP.

>

> Leonard likes post stuff like this because he is a pot stirrer. He

> likes to get everyone going and then sits back a has a good laugh.

> IGNORE anything he/she posts. Skip over it. It is not got anything

> to do with anything we want to hear or read about. Loves the flame

> wars.

>

> Viau

> -60 pounds forever

> Dr Ren

[Guest guest]

> Sharon, why don't you chill out. Not everyone cares

> about Felicia's or your opinion. If certain people

> ask her on a individual basis than fine, give them

> your thoughts one on one. Just don't express your non

> desired opinion to everyone! She should no better and

> well so should you.

Sandy,

I am SO chilled! I didn't say that EVERYONE cared about Felicia's

opinion. I was writing to the group as a whole because there were

about 50 posts in response to Felicia's, and no, I'm not going to

reply to each 50 individually.

In case you all don't know, Felicia did not post her opinions to this

list. She is not a member of this list. She originally posted this on

another list where her opinion WAS solicited. She DID NOT give

permission to have her post forwarded from the other list. She didn't

even know this list had gotten it until I told her. And she was

wondering why she's getting so much hate mail from people she does

not know! So whoever has a problem with it, don't blame her, blame

the person that forwarded the email to us. Forwarding another

person's email without their permission is very rude!

And why the hell can't I post MY OPINION on this list? I am a

freakin' member of this list, and I HAVE the DS! How dare you tell me

not to express my " non desired opinion " to everyone? So only desired

opinions are allowed to be posted? Give me a freakin' break...

And speaking on knowing better, please run spell/grammar check on

your future emails so that it will teach you that:

1) questions end in question marks, not periods

2) KNOW is spelled K N O W, not N O

Fairfax Sharon

[Guest guest]

> OK, I give..

> exactly WHAT experience has Felicia had with the DS? And drinking

> with meals is OK with the DS.. Jesus Christ, quit being so

> oversentive.. If Felicia can post HER opinions, and you can post

YOUR

> opinions.. then I will CONTINUE posting MY opinions.. if that

bothers

> you.. I'm sorry. But this group is about posting truths,

not

> lies.. and her " opinions " are patently false.

> My .02.

> Liane

Liane,

50 replies are posted to this list, incensed with anger at Felicia

for her opinion. I defend her right to have an opinion and *I* am the

OVERSENSITIVE one????

As she and I have already stated, Felicia's opinion was formed from

years on internet research and her personal interaction with MANY

patients and surgeons. It is in no way scientific, but if she has

encountered people to make her believe this, then obviously these

scenarios exist to some degree. Thus, her opinions are not patently

false. They may not be univeral. They may not be true for everyone,

but these bad things do occur, and the possibility exists for any of

us--at least we can acknowledge that. To ignore the possible bad

outcomes would be very ignorant. She ain't making stuff up, so if

terrible things can happen, we should be very interested in hearing

the TRUTH so we can learn from it---not cursing anyone who dares say

anything bad about the DS---and that seems to be a recurring

sentiment of this list...

Fairfax Sharon

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/24/2001 5:21:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

sharon1188@... writes:

<< And it's just plain misinformation to state that the RNY life

is like that. None of these surgeries follow one mold. Experiences

differ greatly among people with the exact same procedure. >>

Oh come on now! Whoever posted this wanted a little debate, so that's what

you're getting. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US HAS OUR OWN OPINION, why do we need to

CHILL OUT?? As for plain misinformation to state that RNY is like that......

Is it not EXACTLY what Felicias post was? to state that BPD or DS life is all

lumped together the same, with our ashy complexions and yellow eyes, sores on

our bodies? Pleeeaaase! Give me a break here. And here's the on that really

gets me.......

" I

would say that the distal RNY would be better for

these people, but

some just can't seem to address or overcome their

eating disorder "

I mean really, would ANY of us be having WLS of any kind if we were able to

address or overcome our eating disorder?? No matter which surgery an

individual chooses, it is obviously because we cannot do it on our own, and

we need a tool to help us along. I am appauled that someone could even make

this statement. So the RNY is better because it's easier to overcome an

eating disorder? I think not.

I personally have NOTHING against the RNY, or would give ANY negative

information regarding it, although I do have my opinions about it. Each

person is an individual, and needs to choose what is right for them.

Chilling out....

Kim B.

[Guest guest]

If she " ain't makin stuff up " , then why, praytell, is all of her

" information " radically different from published research studies?

An opinion is an opinion... don't call it " facts " unless you can cite

the medical journal it came from.

....but then, how could established medical journals in the fields of

weight loss surgery compete with the vast knowledge of one postop RnY

with a computer...?

Liane

> > OK, I give..

> > exactly WHAT experience has Felicia had with the DS? And drinking

> > with meals is OK with the DS.. Jesus Christ, quit being so

> > oversentive.. If Felicia can post HER opinions, and you can post

> YOUR

> > opinions.. then I will CONTINUE posting MY opinions.. if that

> bothers

> > you.. I'm sorry. But this group is about posting truths,

> not

> > lies.. and her " opinions " are patently false.

> > My .02.

> > Liane

>

> Liane,

>

> 50 replies are posted to this list, incensed with anger at Felicia

> for her opinion. I defend her right to have an opinion and *I* am

the

> OVERSENSITIVE one????

>

> As she and I have already stated, Felicia's opinion was formed from

> years on internet research and her personal interaction with MANY

> patients and surgeons. It is in no way scientific, but if she has

> encountered people to make her believe this, then obviously these

> scenarios exist to some degree. Thus, her opinions are not patently

> false. They may not be univeral. They may not be true for everyone,

> but these bad things do occur, and the possibility exists for any of

> us--at least we can acknowledge that. To ignore the possible bad

> outcomes would be very ignorant. She ain't making stuff up, so if

> terrible things can happen, we should be very interested in hearing

> the TRUTH so we can learn from it---not cursing anyone who dares say

> anything bad about the DS---and that seems to be a recurring

> sentiment of this list...

>

> Fairfax Sharon

[Guest guest]

> If she " ain't makin stuff up " , then why, praytell, is all of her

> " information " radically different from published research studies?

> An opinion is an opinion... don't call it " facts " unless you can

cite

> the medical journal it came from.

> ...but then, how could established medical journals in the fields

of

> weight loss surgery compete with the vast knowledge of one postop

RnY

> with a computer...?

>

> Liane

Geez, Felicia wasn't even ATTEMPTING to compete with established

medical journals! She was relaying experiences with people she has

met and talked to over the years. That, too, is valuable. So often it

is the people who are not successful who do not continue follow-up

with their doctors; thus, they will not make it into the research

studies. It's much easier for the docs to gather a sampling of

successful postops than to find the failures that have slipped

through the cracks. I continued to see my surgeon when I started

gaining weight, but I'm sure you won't find anything about my RNY

failure in any medical journal, as my original surgeon sure doesn't

give a damn.

Look at how many people have such a hard time getting docs to do

revisions. Who is really reaching out to the failures to hear their

story? Felicia does, as much as she can. Are the medical journals?

I don't think she could have stated any more than she did that her

post was NOT facts! They were conclusions she has come to based on

her personal experience. She made such a point to explain that she is

not a medical expert---why do you persist in ignoring that and

accusing her of proclaiming FACTS??? She does have a LOT of personal

contact with MANY postops of all procedures.

And I haven't seen anyone else on here give references of medical

journals for all the proclaimation that the DS is the best. I would

be interested in reading them myself. And if you ask Felicia NICELY,

I'm sure she can back up her opinions with credible sources. But like

I said--NICELY. Don't demand it of her---she didn't send that post

for our eyes, anyway...

Fairfax Sharon

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/24/2001 11:14:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

sharon1188@... writes:

<< And speaking on knowing better, please run spell/grammar check on

your future emails so that it will teach you that:

1) questions end in question marks, not periods

2) KNOW is spelled K N O W, not N O >>

I think we are really beginning to get a little childish here, don't you?

Since you are not the person who posted this, or the person who wrote the

original post, you could possibly just use your delete key, or go no mail if

it is bothering you so much that you need to attack someone for their

spelling and punctuation. What you did is very degrading and unacceptable. It

is not an opinion of any kind, just downright rude. Opinions are all

welcomed, and if a debate comes of it, so what? No need to attack someone for

something like this. Really, I think you owe someone an appology.

Kim

[Guest guest]

Opinions are all welcomed, and if a debate comes of it, so what? No need to attack someone for something like this. Really, I think you owe someone an appology.

Kim...well said

~~* AJ *~~

BMI 59

INSURANCE: NW Washington Medical (Regence )

DR Heap, Richland WA

Denied due to exclusion, denied appeal 6/7/01

going self pay - Dr Baltasar Spain

Bellingham Support for WLS

WWW.lookin2bthin.homestead.com

[Guest guest]

Sharon (Fairfax type) -

You said: " Geez, Felicia wasn't even ATTEMPTING to compete with

established medical journals! She was relaying experiences with

people she has met and talked to over the years. That, too, is

valuable. "

No, Sharon, people who " she has talked to over the years " are NOT

valuable sources of information. This is anecdotal information which

further involves " I heard that . . . " sorts of information which are

overlaid with the biases and lack of understanding of each person who

receives and reconveys the information. It is totally unreliable.

Anyone who pays any attention whatsoever to this sort of information

is going to make decisions that are not based upon reality.

Your point that medical journals don't deal with problems is pure

conspiracy theory. Why don't you quote Vince on WLS

problems? Roswell and Area 151 anyone?

If you have a problem caused by your surgery, I am truly sorry.

However, please stick with science, not your bias.

Nick in Sage

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 6/24/2001 11:14:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> sharon1188@y... writes:

>

> << And speaking on knowing better, please run spell/grammar check

on

> your future emails so that it will teach you that:

> 1) questions end in question marks, not periods

> 2) KNOW is spelled K N O W, not N O >>

>

> I think we are really beginning to get a little childish here,

don't you?

> Since you are not the person who posted this, or the person who

wrote the

> original post, you could possibly just use your delete key, or go

no mail if

> it is bothering you so much that you need to attack someone for

their

> spelling and punctuation. What you did is very degrading and

unacceptable. It

> is not an opinion of any kind, just downright rude. Opinions are

all

> welcomed, and if a debate comes of it, so what? No need to attack

someone for

> something like this. Really, I think you owe someone an appology.

Kim and AJ,

This person tells me that my non-desired opinion is not welcome on

this list, and I should " no " better, and *I* should apologize to

*her*? Normally I wouldn't attack someone's grammar/spelling (even

though dumb mistakes irk the hell out of me, honestly), but if she's

going to be so downright rude and offensive, she'd better expect it

back, as should anyone that wants to attack me in such an ignorant

and ugly manner.

It's great to debate an opinion, but so much of the anger this has

caused has been of the spirit " How dare she say such a thing? " If

someone wants to debate her opinions, that will have to take place in

private email with her because Felicia is not a member of this

list!!!!!!

Fairfax Sharon

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, her viewpoint is unsupported by evidence. There are no

credible sources for her false statements. Her viewpoint is very biased and

unfortunately will be thought to be valid by many others. People who occupy

positions of leadership have an additional responsibility to not promulgate

false information.

" Best " is subjective. However, this list regularly refers people to

published peer reviewed articles. Check the archives.

in Seattle

----- Original Message -----

> And I haven't seen anyone else on here give references of medical

> journals for all the proclaimation that the DS is the best. I would

> be interested in reading them myself. And if you ask Felicia NICELY,

> I'm sure she can back up her opinions with credible sources. But like

> I said--NICELY. Don't demand it of her---she didn't send that post

> for our eyes, anyway...

[Guest guest]

I totally agree with you. We need to gain control.Thanks for giving us the

advice.