Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 ee- > When did the University name the cf cliniic after him? I don't have the exact date on this- and I think there's an article on it at the ponseti_links site (though the article I'm thinking of maybe about the clinic in NYC that was also named after him), but that's still out of commission for a few days- in late 2000 or early 2001 when they hung up the quilt in the hallway they had those gold letters put on the wall. > Anyone know his birthday or how old he'll be this year? His 91st birthday is June 3rd, 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Some answers.. The following is from an article published by the Des Moines Register in Dec. 2000. (Claire was featured in it, and is being held by Dr. P on the front page picture..) " He retired at age 70 because a university rule said he had to. ... The retirement rule was lifted two years later. He returned to work, focusing on his clubfoot treatment. Twelve years passed, and Ponseti appeared to be headed back into retirement at age 84. He stopped by the office a couple of times a week, treating a few babies from Iowa and nearby states. Then the hospital's web site posted information about his method. Parents frantically researching their newborns' deformities latched onto the hopeful message, then passed it around on internet sites. The phone started ringing. Appointment books bulged. Families flew in from as far away as Singapore, Belgium and India. Ponseti practices full time now and shows no sign of handing the reins to younger doctors and staff members. He has treated hundreds of babies in the past two years. " Here, too, is a good historical article about Dr. Ponseti. Be sure to see the links on the side to other articles: http://www.iowalum.com/magazine/feb03/exclusive/ponseti.html The Clinic was named for him in 2001. Here's a press release about it http://www.uihealthcare.com/news/news/2001/10/01ponseti.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 ee, Going back to an old UI Healthcare article, UIHC named the POnseti Clubfoot Clinic on September 28, 2001. The article mentioned is from the dedication pf NYU's clubfoot clinic in April 2001. > > When did the University name the cf cliniic after him? > > I don't have the exact date on this- and I think there's an article > on it at the ponseti_links site (though the article I'm thinking of > maybe about the clinic in NYC that was also named after him), but > that's still out of commission for a few days- in late 2000 or early > 2001 when they hung up the quilt in the hallway they had those gold > letters put on the wall. > > > > Anyone know his birthday or how old he'll be this year? > His 91st birthday is June 3rd, 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 ee, Going back to an old UI Healthcare article, UIHC named the POnseti Clubfoot Clinic on September 28, 2001. The article mentioned is from the dedication of NYU's clubfoot clinic in April 2001. > > When did the University name the cf cliniic after him? > > I don't have the exact date on this- and I think there's an article > on it at the ponseti_links site (though the article I'm thinking of > maybe about the clinic in NYC that was also named after him), but > that's still out of commission for a few days- in late 2000 or early > 2001 when they hung up the quilt in the hallway they had those gold > letters put on the wall. > > > > Anyone know his birthday or how old he'll be this year? > His 91st birthday is June 3rd, 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Just fyi, for those interested... some more excerpts from that article.. it's such a good one. It was written by Tony Leys at the Des Moines Register. (I had called him before going to Iowa to an appointment and proposed a story, and he and a photographer met us at the hospital.) About Dr. P's first retirement and work: _________________ Everyone knows he can't continue indefinitely. (Dr. Stuart) Weinstein and U or I colleague Frederick Dietz are prepared to take over for Ponseti -- but they aren't in any hurry. He has been counted out early before. University alumni spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to set up a permanent faculty position honoring the doctor after he retired. Weinstein was chosen for the chair. Then the old man came back. Weinstein, 54, laughs about serving for more than a decade as the designated Ignacio Ponseti professor while the actual Ignacio Ponseti still works down the hall. " He'll probably outlive us all. Maybe he'll have a chair in my name someday. " ____________________ Ponseti beamed quietly when asked about the sudden burst of attention after so many years. Is the new wave a patients final vindication of his work? He hesitated in answering. " I have helped so many people, " he said. " That has been vindication enough. " Of course, he added, it's nice to see the growing number of surgeons traveling to Iowa to learn from him. He figures 100 doctors around the world [this was 2000] now use his method. But that is not all his doing. " The patients, the parents are so emotional about this. That has pushed the doctors to come look. " Families say their babies are lucky to have him. He knows he is lucky to have them. " It's curious, isn't it? " he said. " At 86, one is supposed to be quiet at home and so on. But it is a good prescription for people my age. If you are well, you should do what you like to do. " ________________________ Just thought some of you would be interested .. The headline was " Doctor, 86, works magic on babies' feet " and had a quote from me at the top: " It was clear to me right away that this was the place for my baby to be " .. and indeed it was.. and Claire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Thank you! s. Re: Questions from ee ee- > When did the University name the cf cliniic after him? I don't have the exact date on this- and I think there's an article on it at the ponseti_links site (though the article I'm thinking of maybe about the clinic in NYC that was also named after him), but that's still out of commission for a few days- in late 2000 or early 2001 when they hung up the quilt in the hallway they had those gold letters put on the wall. > Anyone know his birthday or how old he'll be this year? His 91st birthday is June 3rd, 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Thank you. We were talking about him last night and I started to wonder more about him. There are so many articles and links I could weed through them for days before I zeroed in so I thought a few of you might shorten my search. I really appreciate it! s. Re: Questions from ee Some answers.. The following is from an article published by the Des Moines Register in Dec. 2000. (Claire was featured in it, and is being held by Dr. P on the front page picture..) " He retired at age 70 because a university rule said he had to. ... The retirement rule was lifted two years later. He returned to work, focusing on his clubfoot treatment. Twelve years passed, and Ponseti appeared to be headed back into retirement at age 84. He stopped by the office a couple of times a week, treating a few babies from Iowa and nearby states. Then the hospital's web site posted information about his method. Parents frantically researching their newborns' deformities latched onto the hopeful message, then passed it around on internet sites. The phone started ringing. Appointment books bulged. Families flew in from as far away as Singapore, Belgium and India. Ponseti practices full time now and shows no sign of handing the reins to younger doctors and staff members. He has treated hundreds of babies in the past two years. " Here, too, is a good historical article about Dr. Ponseti. Be sure to see the links on the side to other articles: http://www.iowalum.com/magazine/feb03/exclusive/ponseti.html The Clinic was named for him in 2001. Here's a press release about it http://www.uihealthcare.com/news/news/2001/10/01ponseti.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 OK - this is making me cry! And I've never met the man. I honestly don't think I've ever heard a story about a doc that compares to this. Kori At 07:51 AM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >Just fyi, for those interested... some more excerpts from that >article.. it's such a good one. It was written by Tony Leys at the >Des Moines Register. (I had called him before going to Iowa to an >appointment and proposed a story, and he and a photographer met us at >the hospital.) > >About Dr. P's first retirement and work: >_________________ > >Everyone knows he can't continue indefinitely. (Dr. Stuart) Weinstein >and U or I colleague Frederick Dietz are prepared to take over for >Ponseti -- but they aren't in any hurry. He has been counted out >early before. > >University alumni spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to set up a >permanent faculty position honoring the doctor after he retired. >Weinstein was chosen for the chair. > >Then the old man came back. > >Weinstein, 54, laughs about serving for more than a decade as the >designated Ignacio Ponseti professor while the actual Ignacio Ponseti >still works down the hall. " He'll probably outlive us all. Maybe >he'll have a chair in my name someday. " >____________________ > > >Ponseti beamed quietly when asked about the sudden burst of attention >after so many years. > >Is the new wave a patients final vindication of his work? > >He hesitated in answering. " I have helped so many people, " he >said. " That has been vindication enough. " > >Of course, he added, it's nice to see the growing number of surgeons >traveling to Iowa to learn from him. He figures 100 doctors around >the world [this was 2000] now use his method. But that is not all his >doing. > > " The patients, the parents are so emotional about this. That has >pushed the doctors to come look. " > >Families say their babies are lucky to have him. He knows he is lucky >to have them. > > " It's curious, isn't it? " he said. " At 86, one is supposed to be >quiet at home and so on. But it is a good prescription for people my >age. If you are well, you should do what you like to do. " > >________________________ > >Just thought some of you would be interested .. The headline >was " Doctor, 86, works magic on babies' feet " and had a quote from me >at the top: " It was clear to me right away that this was the place >for my baby to be " .. and indeed it was.. > > and Claire > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 ee, Thanks; there are many parents (and our children) and doctors who have each done alot to help other new parents and spread this important information. The support continues to be shared in more and more internet forums and sites around the world every day. It is amazing to look back almost 6 years now and see what has happened from just a small beginning of a few parents on the internet who searched and found what Dr. Ponseti had been trying to tell everyone for 50 years. By the way, will be 6 years old 2 weeks from now on March 17th (St. s Day) and yesterday started his 3rd year of little league baseball. He plays soccer, basketball and has snow skiied since he was three. His activities and capabilities have been no different than any of his prior 5 brothers and sisters. Allyson and I will be forever grateful that Dr. Ponseti didn't just stay retired 20 or so years ago. Whatever each of us can do to help will be of value. As Dr. Herzenberg said in 1999 at Amazon.com at the beginning of the changover to the Ponseti method; " ... Generations of Clubfoot Babies will thank us. " http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /0192627651/qid=1109887953/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-6525559- 9612608?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 http://www.vh.org/pediatric/patient/orthopaedics/clubfeet/egbert.html > GlacierI have questions - how old was Dr. Ponseti when the university forced him to retire? (about 70? anyone know for sure?) How much time passed until he convinced them to let him return? > > When did the University name the cf cliniic after him? > > Anyone know his birthday or how old he'll be this year? > > BTW I've been reading a lot of your file posting tonight and they are awesome. Thanks. > > s. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 , You've always seemed like the voice of reason here , you have such a wealth of information, you've dedicated yourself so intently to this crusade. Are you one of (or the one) who founded this group? I noticed last night it started Dec. 29, 1999. I discovered it in early February - maybe 5 weeks after it started - and am forever thankful for the help it provided back then. I'm just thankful for the whole thing, beyond words. ee ee, Thanks; there are many parents (and our children) and doctors who have each done alot to help other new parents and spread this important information. The support continues to be shared in more and more internet forums and sites around the world every day. It is amazing to look back almost 6 years now and see what has happened from just a small beginning of a few parents on the internet who searched and found what Dr. Ponseti had been trying to tell everyone for 50 years. By the way, will be 6 years old 2 weeks from now on March 17th (St. s Day) and yesterday started his 3rd year of little league baseball. He plays soccer, basketball and has snow skiied since he was three. His activities and capabilities have been no different than any of his prior 5 brothers and sisters. Allyson and I will be forever grateful that Dr. Ponseti didn't just stay retired 20 or so years ago. Whatever each of us can do to help will be of value. As Dr. Herzenberg said in 1999 at Amazon.com at the beginning of the changover to the Ponseti method; " ... Generations of Clubfoot Babies will thank us. " http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /0192627651/qid=1109887953/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-6525559- 9612608?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 http://www.vh.org/pediatric/patient/orthopaedics/clubfeet/egbert.html > GlacierI have questions - how old was Dr. Ponseti when the university forced him to retire? (about 70? anyone know for sure?) How much time passed until he convinced them to let him return? > > When did the University name the cf cliniic after him? > > Anyone know his birthday or how old he'll be this year? > > BTW I've been reading a lot of your file posting tonight and they are awesome. Thanks. > > s. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 ee, Not to toot my own horn TOO loudly (LOL), but I'm the " founder " of this list. Jakob was just shy of 2 years old (he's now 7!!!!), and I was just learning how widespread the Ponseti Method was getting. I had met Joy and Rose a few months prior to this time, but other than that, I wasn't aware of anyone else who had come to Iowa City for treatment. In fact, it wasn't until the middle of December of 1999 that I even heard of Dr. Ponseti. For those who care to hear the whole story, when Jakob was born in February 1998 with bilateral clubfoot, we got referred to UIHC and Dr. Weinstein. We went through all of his casting appointments and the early days of the FAB alone. In fact, we didn't even see any other clubfoot families before, during, or after any of our appointments until the day Jakob got out of the FAB for good in September 2001. In December 1999, A mother I knew from a local breastfeeding group met a family at some kind of church function who was staying at the RMH here in Iowa City. She told me about this family since she knew all about us (this local mother's daughter was born 2 days after Jakob). I called the family at the RMH and we visited for several hours right before my family went out of town for Christmas. During our visit, she told me about talking with (who I knew nothing about at the time). I came home and emailed who told me about the many people who were starting to come to Iowa to see Dr. Ponseti. Over our Christmas vacation, I couldn't get the idea out of my head that something needed to be done to promote the Ponseti Method. I knew about the other Yahoo list (Clubfoot), but meither the people there nor the people at the ParentsPlace clubfoot board were very open to hearing about the Ponseti Method as most of their children had already had surgery. When I came to OneList (it has gone through a couple name changes since then), there was a 20 character limit to group names. In hindsight, I realize it's a bit of a misnomer, but it seems silly to change it at this point So that's my story and I'm stickin' to it > , > You've always seemed like the voice of reason here , you have such a wealth of information, you've dedicated yourself so intently to this crusade. Are you one of (or the one) who founded this group? I noticed last night it started Dec. 29, 1999. I discovered it in early February - maybe 5 weeks after it started - and am forever thankful for the help it provided back then. > > I'm just thankful for the whole thing, beyond words. > ee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 ee, It was McLaughlin who started this list the end of December 1999. had been on one or two of the other message groups before that and saw a need to set up a Ponseti specific support group. I first got to meet and in January 2000, when I brought to the U of Iowa for a nine month checkup. and I had lunch with Dr. Ponseti in the U of Iowa cafeteria after our kids checkups. Actually we all owe a lot to the early internet parents who started a clubfoot group before all of us at Parentsplace in December 1997. They indicated that they had met on a generic birth defect message group at Parentsplace and decided to start a clubfoot specific support group. Those early parents did not know about the Ponseti method, but set up the initial internet clubfoot chat groups that provided information and support that helped all of us be able to communicate. Many of those original internet parents are listed at Hodsoll's web site. Most of their children were born from 1995 to 1998. Some of those early parents and leaders were Dr. Mardie, Judge Judy, Hodsoll, Carmel Burns and others. We all owe a lot to them. http://www.angelfire.com/on4/clubfoot/clubfoot.html They also started the other Yahoo groups clubfoot group in October 1998. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/clubfoot/ We joined Parentsplace on June 7, 1999; about a week after our got out of the casts and about 2 days after Lori Stime (Bay Area) had posted the first message from someone who had been treated by Dr. Ponseti. In 1999, I looked back through all of the messages that had been posted at parentsplace back to December 1997 and noticed that someone had mentioned information about Dr. Ponseti in mid 1998 but no one on their groups at that time had been to him. Almost every parent and child at that time on the internet were dealing with the assumption that surgical correction was the main and only method of treatment for the majority of clubfoot. At that time, I counted that there were about 150 others who had left messages at the Parentsplace site from Dec 1997 to June 1999. The old Parentsplace links do not work anymore so I can't link you to Lori Stimes original message on June 5, 1999. Dr. Ponseti's web site at the Virtual Hospital was on the internet by at least early 1998. I think that there were a few others who found Dr. Ponseti's web site, went to Iowa for treatment, but did not find out about the existing message groups. We were the third parents that I am aware of on those early message groups to have been to Iowa. Kassie E. from L.A. was also on the parentsplace group in mid June 1999. It is possible that there were some other Ponseti method parents on the Yahoo Clubfoot message group before the summer of 1999. By the end of the summer of 1999, there were about 10 internet parents who had gone to Iowa. Through the fall of 1999, that number grew to about 20 and then thought it would be a good idea for Ponseti method parents to have their own message group. During the summer and fall of 1999, the 10-20 of us on the internet began to think that perhaps we could help find ways to get information on the Ponseti method to more and more parents so that new parents could know that the Ponseti method existed. In the meantime, Dr. Ponseti and the U of Iowa, Dr. Herzenberg and Dr. Pirani were all doing what they could to try to get more doctors interested in the method. It has been an amazing experience to see almost the whole medical system change and accept the Ponseti method. and (3-17-99) > > GlacierI have questions - how old was Dr. Ponseti when the > university forced him to retire? (about 70? anyone know for sure?) > How much time passed until he convinced them to let him return? > > > > When did the University name the cf cliniic after him? > > > > Anyone know his birthday or how old he'll be this year? > > > > BTW I've been reading a lot of your file posting tonight and > they are awesome. Thanks. > > > > s. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 I second that. Thanks and !!! Shook Retail Operations Manager/Baking Instructor Vie de France Yamazaki, Inc. 2070 Chain Bridge Rd. Suite 500 Vienna, VA 22182 x374 x374 fax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 Dear , I just wanted to extend a thank-you to you for your continued commitment to helping us parents w/cf babies!! The data, information and links you provide are just amazing! The time and effort you put into this cause is inspiring!!! When our daughter was born with cf - undiagnosed - you were one of the first people to answer my desperate post. You told us about the Ponseti Method (which we were lucky enough to have fallen into) and gave me a link to this site... Thank-you so much for putting me in touch with such a wonderful group of people! I am happy to hear that your Joshaua is doing so well, it really gives us all something to look forward to! & Grace > > GlacierI have questions - how old was Dr. Ponseti when the > university forced him to retire? (about 70? anyone know for sure?) > How much time passed until he convinced them to let him return? > > > > When did the University name the cf cliniic after him? > > > > Anyone know his birthday or how old he'll be this year? > > > > BTW I've been reading a lot of your file posting tonight and > they are awesome. Thanks. > > > > s. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 I'm so glad you did . I bet you never dreamed it would become THIS big! LOL! I'm all the time thinking how close I came to missing the Ponseti Boat. You (and the others) have my gratitude. ee, Not to toot my own horn TOO loudly (LOL), but I'm the " founder " of this list. Jakob was just shy of 2 years old (he's now 7!!!!), and I was just learning how widespread the Ponseti Method was getting. I had met Joy and Rose a few months prior to this time, but other than that, I wasn't aware of anyone else who had come to Iowa City for treatment. In fact, it wasn't until the middle of December of 1999 that I even heard of Dr. Ponseti. For those who care to hear the whole story, when Jakob was born in February 1998 with bilateral clubfoot, we got referred to UIHC and Dr. Weinstein. We went through all of his casting appointments and the early days of the FAB alone. In fact, we didn't even see any other clubfoot families before, during, or after any of our appointments until the day Jakob got out of the FAB for good in September 2001. In December 1999, A mother I knew from a local breastfeeding group met a family at some kind of church function who was staying at the RMH here in Iowa City. She told me about this family since she knew all about us (this local mother's daughter was born 2 days after Jakob). I called the family at the RMH and we visited for several hours right before my family went out of town for Christmas. During our visit, she told me about talking with (who I knew nothing about at the time). I came home and emailed who told me about the many people who were starting to come to Iowa to see Dr. Ponseti. Over our Christmas vacation, I couldn't get the idea out of my head that something needed to be done to promote the Ponseti Method. I knew about the other Yahoo list (Clubfoot), but meither the people there nor the people at the ParentsPlace clubfoot board were very open to hearing about the Ponseti Method as most of their children had already had surgery. When I came to OneList (it has gone through a couple name changes since then), there was a 20 character limit to group names. In hindsight, I realize it's a bit of a misnomer, but it seems silly to change it at this point So that's my story and I'm stickin' to it > , > You've always seemed like the voice of reason here , you have such a wealth of information, you've dedicated yourself so intently to this crusade. Are you one of (or the one) who founded this group? I noticed last night it started Dec. 29, 1999. I discovered it in early February - maybe 5 weeks after it started - and am forever thankful for the help it provided back then. > > I'm just thankful for the whole thing, beyond words. > ee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 > > Hodsoll's web site. Most of their children were born from > 1995 to 1998. Some of those early parents and leaders were Dr. > Mardie, Judge Judy, Hodsoll, Carmel Burns and others. We > Wait a minute...Judge Judy?? Like THE Judge Judy, from TV? hehehe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 > > Hodsoll's web site. Most of their children were born from > 1995 to 1998. Some of those early parents and leaders were Dr. > Mardie, Judge Judy, Hodsoll, Carmel Burns and others. We > Wait a minute...Judge Judy?? Like THE Judge Judy, from TV? hehehe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 I'm with you, everytime I hear these stories about this man, it makes me weepy. I just find it so amazing how he cares for these children and still has the drive to continue his work even now, almost 91 years old; it's just amazing! > > > >Just fyi, for those interested... some more excerpts from that > >article.. it's such a good one. It was written by Tony Leys at the > >Des Moines Register. (I had called him before going to Iowa to an > >appointment and proposed a story, and he and a photographer met us at > >the hospital.) > > > >About Dr. P's first retirement and work: > >_________________ > > > >Everyone knows he can't continue indefinitely. (Dr. Stuart) Weinstein > >and U or I colleague Frederick Dietz are prepared to take over for > >Ponseti -- but they aren't in any hurry. He has been counted out > >early before. > > > >University alumni spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to set up a > >permanent faculty position honoring the doctor after he retired. > >Weinstein was chosen for the chair. > > > >Then the old man came back. > > > >Weinstein, 54, laughs about serving for more than a decade as the > >designated Ignacio Ponseti professor while the actual Ignacio Ponseti > >still works down the hall. " He'll probably outlive us all. Maybe > >he'll have a chair in my name someday. " > >____________________ > > > > > >Ponseti beamed quietly when asked about the sudden burst of attention > >after so many years. > > > >Is the new wave a patients final vindication of his work? > > > >He hesitated in answering. " I have helped so many people, " he > >said. " That has been vindication enough. " > > > >Of course, he added, it's nice to see the growing number of surgeons > >traveling to Iowa to learn from him. He figures 100 doctors around > >the world [this was 2000] now use his method. But that is not all his > >doing. > > > > " The patients, the parents are so emotional about this. That has > >pushed the doctors to come look. " > > > >Families say their babies are lucky to have him. He knows he is lucky > >to have them. > > > > " It's curious, isn't it? " he said. " At 86, one is supposed to be > >quiet at home and so on. But it is a good prescription for people my > >age. If you are well, you should do what you like to do. " > > > >________________________ > > > >Just thought some of you would be interested .. The headline > >was " Doctor, 86, works magic on babies' feet " and had a quote from me > >at the top: " It was clear to me right away that this was the place > >for my baby to be " .. and indeed it was.. > > > > and Claire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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