Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I am still nursing Darbi at 22 (almost 23) months still. Not interested in weaning but I think I may have found an answer today... I am pretty sure I have thrush on my nipples. Red, flaky, painful nursing. Been there for a while and I just thought it was because of Darbi's teeth... well today I finally noticed my nips are messed up. Nothing in Darbi's mouth so it's me. I found some Gentian Violet and painted myself with it. Well, Darbi refuses to nurse now, she hates the taste. So I figure I could wean her if I keep this up. I won't, going to try the Grapefruit Seed Extract next but she hated it so much I figure I could wean her with it. When they're little they nurse fine with the GV, but the older wiser child may not be interested in such a thing. yuck she says! So, if all else fails paint yourself with GV lol! Kori At 04:13 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i wanted >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here lately >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which is >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this transition >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > and >BL CF 12/16/03 >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Kori, Good idea! That is so funny! LOL...whatever works right? Mommy to (12-17-98) and Christian (1-30-04) LCF - DBB (nights only) _____ From: frogabog Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:29 PM To: nosurgery4clubfoot Subject: Re: RE: OT/ BF QUESTIONS I am still nursing Darbi at 22 (almost 23) months still. Not interested in weaning but I think I may have found an answer today... I am pretty sure I have thrush on my nipples. Red, flaky, painful nursing. Been there for a while and I just thought it was because of Darbi's teeth... well today I finally noticed my nips are messed up. Nothing in Darbi's mouth so it's me. I found some Gentian Violet and painted myself with it. Well, Darbi refuses to nurse now, she hates the taste. So I figure I could wean her if I keep this up. I won't, going to try the Grapefruit Seed Extract next but she hated it so much I figure I could wean her with it. When they're little they nurse fine with the GV, but the older wiser child may not be interested in such a thing. yuck she says! So, if all else fails paint yourself with GV lol! Kori At 04:13 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i wanted >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here lately >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which is >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this transition >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > and >BL CF 12/16/03 >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 hi kori, what's gentian violet? i've had a few infections in my nipples since naomi was born, and i'm tired of the dr prescribing antibiotics... maureen frogabog wrote: > I am still nursing Darbi at 22 (almost 23) months still. Not > interested in > weaning but I think I may have found an answer today... I am pretty > sure I > have thrush on my nipples. Red, flaky, painful nursing. Been there > for a > while and I just thought it was because of Darbi's teeth... well today I > finally noticed my nips are messed up. Nothing in Darbi's mouth so it's > me. I found some Gentian Violet and painted myself with it. Well, Darbi > refuses to nurse now, she hates the taste. So I figure I could wean > her if > I keep this up. I won't, going to try the Grapefruit Seed Extract > next but > she hated it so much I figure I could wean her with it. When they're > little they nurse fine with the GV, but the older wiser child may not be > interested in such a thing. yuck she says! > > So, if all else fails paint yourself with GV lol! > > Kori > > At 04:13 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i wanted > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here lately > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which is > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this transition > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > and > >BL CF 12/16/03 > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 What??? Antibiotics CAUSE yeast infections! If you take oral antibiotics the result is often a vaginal yeast infection and when babies take antibiotics they'll come up with thrush or a yeasty diaper rash as a result. Dr's usually prescribe oral nystatin for the babies but it doesn't always work, not antibiotics. You can get GV at a health food store, it's purple and it stains but it works. Also, try Grapefruit Seed Extract. GSE is what the bottle says. A few drops in a butter container of water and you can use it for a yeasty diaper rash or in the baby's mouth or on your nipples. If you choose GV, pin a cloth diaper around the baby's neck because it will stain. And baby will have a purple mouth but it'll work. Good stuff. do a search online for GV and GSE. GV has been used for a long time for this. And tell that doctor to stop prescribing things that cause the infection itself. Sheesh! Kori At 04:48 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: >hi kori, >what's gentian violet? i've had a few infections in my nipples since >naomi was born, and i'm tired of the dr prescribing antibiotics... >maureen > >frogabog wrote: > > > I am still nursing Darbi at 22 (almost 23) months still. Not > > interested in > > weaning but I think I may have found an answer today... I am pretty > > sure I > > have thrush on my nipples. Red, flaky, painful nursing. Been there > > for a > > while and I just thought it was because of Darbi's teeth... well today I > > finally noticed my nips are messed up. Nothing in Darbi's mouth so it's > > me. I found some Gentian Violet and painted myself with it. Well, Darbi > > refuses to nurse now, she hates the taste. So I figure I could wean > > her if > > I keep this up. I won't, going to try the Grapefruit Seed Extract > > next but > > she hated it so much I figure I could wean her with it. When they're > > little they nurse fine with the GV, but the older wiser child may not be > > interested in such a thing. yuck she says! > > > > So, if all else fails paint yourself with GV lol! > > > > Kori > > > > At 04:13 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: > > > > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i wanted > > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. > > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used > > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. > > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here lately > > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which is > > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this transition > > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you > > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > > and > > >BL CF 12/16/03 > > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 i've had mastitis at the same time as the yeast infections four times since noms was born (she just turned 1)... plus with the wound infections i had from a screwed up c section, i've been on antibiotics eight times (plus one 10 day cycle of another type of penicilin)... so in order to 'fix' the infections, i was put on antibiotics which then makes the yeast infections worse and gave naomi the craziest diaper rashes... it's a very messed up cycle and i finally told her no more... and to try and make things better, i've been offered a free tummy tuck and lipo... but who really wants to have another surgery after this...?? thanks i will be going to our health food store and getting some... maureen frogabog wrote: > What??? Antibiotics CAUSE yeast infections! If you take oral > antibiotics > the result is often a vaginal yeast infection and when babies take > antibiotics they'll come up with thrush or a yeasty diaper rash as a > result. Dr's usually prescribe oral nystatin for the babies but it > doesn't > always work, not antibiotics. You can get GV at a health food store, it's > purple and it stains but it works. Also, try Grapefruit Seed > Extract. GSE > is what the bottle says. A few drops in a butter container of water and > you can use it for a yeasty diaper rash or in the baby's mouth or on your > nipples. If you choose GV, pin a cloth diaper around the baby's neck > because it will stain. And baby will have a purple mouth but it'll > work. Good stuff. > > do a search online for GV and GSE. GV has been used for a long time for > this. > > And tell that doctor to stop prescribing things that cause the infection > itself. Sheesh! > > Kori > > > > At 04:48 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: > > >hi kori, > >what's gentian violet? i've had a few infections in my nipples since > >naomi was born, and i'm tired of the dr prescribing antibiotics... > >maureen > > > >frogabog wrote: > > > > > I am still nursing Darbi at 22 (almost 23) months still. Not > > > interested in > > > weaning but I think I may have found an answer today... I am pretty > > > sure I > > > have thrush on my nipples. Red, flaky, painful nursing. Been there > > > for a > > > while and I just thought it was because of Darbi's teeth... well > today I > > > finally noticed my nips are messed up. Nothing in Darbi's mouth > so it's > > > me. I found some Gentian Violet and painted myself with it. > Well, Darbi > > > refuses to nurse now, she hates the taste. So I figure I could wean > > > her if > > > I keep this up. I won't, going to try the Grapefruit Seed Extract > > > next but > > > she hated it so much I figure I could wean her with it. When they're > > > little they nurse fine with the GV, but the older wiser child may > not be > > > interested in such a thing. yuck she says! > > > > > > So, if all else fails paint yourself with GV lol! > > > > > > Kori > > > > > > At 04:13 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i wanted > > > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. > > > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used > > > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. > > > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here lately > > > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which is > > > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this transition > > > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > > > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you > > > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > > > and > > > >BL CF 12/16/03 > > > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 OMG Maureen, how awful! I've had 3 sections, but no wound infections. I can't hardly imagine... Have you considered going to a naturopath to try to clear up the infection? I know it's not the same, but I had strep a couple of weeks back and my ND gave me a chinese herbal soup (add chicken, season like chicken soup) to eat for it. After this long... I think I'd be trying anything else I could find for that. It sounds so horrible and I hope you feel better soon. C-sections suck the big one... I soooo wish things had turned out differently for me. I think I'd keep that tummy tuck in my back pocket though lol... you never know how you'll feel (or look) after the next few pregnancies! If you have vaginal yeast there's another remedy that works well. I use Boric Acid capsules ( WARNING - DO NOT EAT, it's poison - use as suppository) for yeast and after you get it under control you use one or two capsules a week and it keeps them away. It changes the ph in the vagina so the yeast can't grow. I gotta run, but email me if you want more info on this. I'm the queen of yeast infections... or at least was before I started with the boric acid. Been on a pretty good run with only a few a year since I started with the BA in '93. Kori At 05:08 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: >i've had mastitis at the same time as the yeast infections four times >since noms was born (she just turned 1)... plus with the wound >infections i had from a screwed up c section, i've been on antibiotics >eight times (plus one 10 day cycle of another type of penicilin)... so >in order to 'fix' the infections, i was put on antibiotics which then >makes the yeast infections worse and gave naomi the craziest diaper >rashes... it's a very messed up cycle and i finally told her no more... >and to try and make things better, i've been offered a free tummy tuck >and lipo... but who really wants to have another surgery after this...?? >thanks i will be going to our health food store and getting some... >maureen > >frogabog wrote: > > > What??? Antibiotics CAUSE yeast infections! If you take oral > > antibiotics > > the result is often a vaginal yeast infection and when babies take > > antibiotics they'll come up with thrush or a yeasty diaper rash as a > > result. Dr's usually prescribe oral nystatin for the babies but it > > doesn't > > always work, not antibiotics. You can get GV at a health food store, it's > > purple and it stains but it works. Also, try Grapefruit Seed > > Extract. GSE > > is what the bottle says. A few drops in a butter container of water and > > you can use it for a yeasty diaper rash or in the baby's mouth or on your > > nipples. If you choose GV, pin a cloth diaper around the baby's neck > > because it will stain. And baby will have a purple mouth but it'll > > work. Good stuff. > > > > do a search online for GV and GSE. GV has been used for a long time for > > this. > > > > And tell that doctor to stop prescribing things that cause the infection > > itself. Sheesh! > > > > Kori > > > > > > > > At 04:48 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: > > > > >hi kori, > > >what's gentian violet? i've had a few infections in my nipples since > > >naomi was born, and i'm tired of the dr prescribing antibiotics... > > >maureen > > > > > >frogabog wrote: > > > > > > > I am still nursing Darbi at 22 (almost 23) months still. Not > > > > interested in > > > > weaning but I think I may have found an answer today... I am pretty > > > > sure I > > > > have thrush on my nipples. Red, flaky, painful nursing. Been there > > > > for a > > > > while and I just thought it was because of Darbi's teeth... well > > today I > > > > finally noticed my nips are messed up. Nothing in Darbi's mouth > > so it's > > > > me. I found some Gentian Violet and painted myself with it. > > Well, Darbi > > > > refuses to nurse now, she hates the taste. So I figure I could wean > > > > her if > > > > I keep this up. I won't, going to try the Grapefruit Seed Extract > > > > next but > > > > she hated it so much I figure I could wean her with it. When they're > > > > little they nurse fine with the GV, but the older wiser child may > > not be > > > > interested in such a thing. yuck she says! > > > > > > > > So, if all else fails paint yourself with GV lol! > > > > > > > > Kori > > > > > > > > At 04:13 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i wanted > > > > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. > > > > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used > > > > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. > > > > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here lately > > > > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which is > > > > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this transition > > > > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > > > > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you > > > > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > > > > and > > > > >BL CF 12/16/03 > > > > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 lol, don't ask me... I'm the one who nursed the oldest till 4, middle till 2.5 and only weaned then because I was pg and he was a preemie so my risk of another preemie was higher if I continued to nurse past 28w and here I am still nursing Darbi... at least 2x at night still and she's nearly 2. Don't ask ME about not being ready to wean lol! Yeah, it does sound mean but so does saying no and letting them stand there and cry big tears because you won't nurse. I'm all about child led weaning and a big pushover when it comes to them asking for it. They love it, I don't mind (unless I've got thrush lol) and they'll only be little for a short while... We enjoy sitting and being with each other. It doesn't happen much once they start preschool and definitely not much after kindergarten. I'll take whatever I can get :~} Kori At 05:26 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: >thanks for the idea but it sounds to me a little mean. or am i just >not ready to give up nursing?? help! >michelle and samantha >bl cf 12/16/03 > > > > > > > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i >wanted > > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. > > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used > > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. > > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here >lately > > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which >is > > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this >transition > > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you > > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > > and > > >BL CF 12/16/03 > > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I'm with you there, but sadly my Everett is weaning himself much to my disapppointment and efforts to turn the tide. Any ideas how to encourage him to continue nursing a while longer??? I just love nursing him, but he just loves holding his own cup of ice cold milk instead. He's too busy to sit still to nurse, after all, he can drink on the go now days! Even when he's tired, he doesn't much want to nurse, he wants to lay down - sleep, leave him alone! If I try to nurse him when he's tired he gets mad at me for bothering him. As for weaning, if you must or just want to - try eleminating the morning nursing by offering him a sippy cup of milk first thing when he wakes up. Gradually work that in to the other feedings as well, and maybe when he does nurse, give him a cup of milk to drink first, so he won't nurse as long or get as much out of it when he does. s. Re: Re: OT/ BF QUESTIONS lol, don't ask me... I'm the one who nursed the oldest till 4, middle till 2.5 and only weaned then because I was pg and he was a preemie so my risk of another preemie was higher if I continued to nurse past 28w and here I am still nursing Darbi... at least 2x at night still and she's nearly 2. Don't ask ME about not being ready to wean lol! Yeah, it does sound mean but so does saying no and letting them stand there and cry big tears because you won't nurse. I'm all about child led weaning and a big pushover when it comes to them asking for it. They love it, I don't mind (unless I've got thrush lol) and they'll only be little for a short while... We enjoy sitting and being with each other. It doesn't happen much once they start preschool and definitely not much after kindergarten. I'll take whatever I can get :~} Kori At 05:26 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote: >thanks for the idea but it sounds to me a little mean. or am i just >not ready to give up nursing?? help! >michelle and samantha >bl cf 12/16/03 > > > > > > > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i >wanted > > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. > > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used > > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. > > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here >lately > > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which >is > > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this >transition > > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you > > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > > and > > >BL CF 12/16/03 > > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Did anyone get yeast infections whilst pregnant with their clubfoot babies?? I have always wondered it the pessaries that I had could have been the cause in my case!!! You never really know what in these drugs!! Rach, Steve & Connor -- Re: OT/ BF QUESTIONS Free tummy tuck & lipo sounds worth it to me!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and i wanted > > > > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go about it. > > > > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. she used > > > > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the evening. > > > > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but here lately > > > > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process which is > > > > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this transition > > > > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > > > > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. if you > > > > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > > > > and > > > > >BL CF 12/16/03 > > > > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Yes you get different pessaries if you are pregnant. You can take them orally if not pg. R, S & C -- Re: OT/ BF QUESTIONS > > > Free tummy tuck & lipo sounds worth it to me!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and > i wanted > > > > > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go > about it. > > > > > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. > she used > > > > > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the > evening. > > > > > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but > here lately > > > > > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process > which is > > > > > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this > transition > > > > > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > > > > > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. > if you > > > > > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > > > > > and > > > > > >BL CF 12/16/03 > > > > > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 You've never had major abdominal surgery have you? :~} After what Maureen has gone through, I can totally understand her hesitation. An uncomplicated surgery is bad enough (read: lots of pain) but dealing with infection has got to be excruciating. Then again... they give you good drugs lol! Kori At 08:47 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote: >Free tummy tuck & lipo sounds worth it to me!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I am going to wean my daughter in a bout a month or so and >i wanted > > > > > >to know if any one could give me some tips on how to go >about it. > > > > > >she is 14months old and she does not bf too much anymore. >she used > > > > > >to bf 1 in the morning,afternoon, and maybe twice in the >evening. > > > > > >she used to also need to bf to go to sleep at night but >here lately > > > > > >she falls asleep on her own. i know it is a gradual process >which is > > > > > >ok but if any one has some great tips on how to make this >transition > > > > > >a more smooth one i would be soo thankful. > > > > > >ive heard to take away 1 feeding a week and go from there. >if you > > > > > >have tips you would like to share THANK YOU! > > > > > > and > > > > > >BL CF 12/16/03 > > > > > >s 23/7 (5days left!!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 my daughter weaned herself also... she just decided one day that she didn't want to anymore.. she was 6 months old at the time.. but i know lots of mothers who just one day skipped one bf and then like 2 days later skip 2 bf and so on... they have all weaned theirs off within a week... i really think it's the mommy's who miss it more than the babies.. i know i was crushed when grace stopped wanting to nurse... and i pumped till she was 12 months old and i can say from experience.. pumping all the time and nursing are not at all alike... it suddenly turned into a chore instead of something i enjoyed... there was no closeness to the machine... lol... but good luck to you... mommy to Grace 12-03-03 BCF jagrindon jagrindon@...> wrote: I don't really have any suggestions, just my own experience w/ my older one, she stopped nursing the day she turned 1. She was nursing 2x a day up until then and I thought I would just see what happened if I didn't offer it to her. She didn't even ask for it, we went through our normal nighttime routine except I skipped the nursing and she went to sleep like nothing was different. Then the next morning she got up and we went to daycare, no nursing. I think I missed it more than she did! lisa caroland __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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