Re: more on b12 deficiency

[Guest guest]

Everything I have read says that B12 deficiency is very rare, especially in

North America. For a meat eater, is supplementing with B12 or B-complex

really just a waste of time if we are not deficient; or will supplementing

with B vitamins even though we are not deficient be of any help with skin

conditions becasue we have an overlaod of it in our systems?

The b-complex I have been taking also has Biotin and Folic acid which I

assume can only help the skin as well--but is supplementing with any of

these just a waste of time if there is no deficiency?

Thanks,

>

>To: rosacea-support

>Subject: more on b12 deficiency

>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:24:40 -0000

>

>Sent to me privately, but I wanted to reply publicly, so the author

>is not identified:

>

>-=-=-=

>

>Marjorie, did you all do a search on meating-eating diets and B12

>deficiencies? It is my understanding that more meat-eating people

>show a deficiency in B12 than vegans/vegetarians.

>

>B12 deficiency is an environmenal, world-wide issue. B12 is a

>bacteria that lives in the soil. Animals ingest it when they eat

>grass, etc. Humans used to ingest it when eating vegetables. As

>well, in a healthy gut, B12 can be manufactured by both animals and

>humans. However, due to the harmful farming practicies used world-

>wide, the earth's soil has become alarmly deficient in B12 bacteria.

>Add to this that most people scrub their vegetables as well most

>people cook their vegetables before eating them, it's no wonder that

>people are becoming B12 deficient.

>

>-=-=-=

>

>First, B12 is not a bacteria -- it is a vitamin that is made by

>bacteria. Yes, the bacteria in our bodies makes B12, but even in the

>healthiest individuals the majority is made in the lower intestines,

>whereas B12 absorption takes place higher in the GI tract (in the

>small intestines). So B12 from our bodies, healthy or otherwise, is

>made either too little or too low to be helpful to us. That B12 just

>gets excreted out along in our feces.

>

>In countries without good public health systems, their soil is

>contaminated with human feces (and its B12), and that's the source of

>B12 in humans who eat unwashed vegetables from that soil. They may

>not be Vitamin B12 deficient, but they are subjected to all the

>infectious diseases that come from exposure to human waste; that

>doesn't sound like " harmful farming practices " to me. <g>

>

>The problems with B12 deficiency among non-vegetarians has nothing to

>do with diet, but is related to the availability and function of the

>stomach's intrinsic factor and other requirements for B12 to be

>properly absorbed from food. So supplementation (in vitamin pills or

>fortified foods) is recommended for everyone over the age of 50,

>whatever diet they are on. (see

>http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitb12.html)

>

>I don't believe people in countries with horrible public health

>survive commonly into their 50s, but those that do would require

>supplementation as well, even if they continued to eat their feces-

>covered vegetables.

>

>Stores of B12 are such that it takes decades for a previous meat-

>eater to develop B12 deficiency. Not so with children, however, which

>is why many of the studies in the Medline search talked about

>children of vegetarian/vegan mothers.

>

>Here are some vegetarian sites that support the above information:

>

>http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

>

>http://chetday.com/b12.html

>

>Marjorie

>

>Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

>

>

>--

>Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

>(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you don't

>give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change the

>subject when replying to a digest !

>

>See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

>

>To leave the list send an email to

>rosacea-support-unsubscribe

>

>

[Guest guest]

, B12 is quite rare among the young adults and the middle aged

but it's not rare at all among the elderly. That's because B12

deficiency takes decades for the deficiency to fully manifest, and

the elderly are more likely to develop conditions that impair B12

absorption. To explain your reading, I would think that young or

inexperienced health writers may inadvertently not include those over

aged 50 in their articles about B12, or that it may not support their

stance to include them.

I don't know the answer regarding proposed skin benefits of

supplementation beyond the minimum standards, but I suspect so. The

minimum daily requirements are set to prevent deficiencies -- they're

the bare minimum, not necessarily the normal or healthy dose. The

minimum daily requirement of water, for example is far less than the

more skin-optimal 6-8 glasses a day. So I would assume it's the same

with some vitamins and minerals (but I don't know that for a fact).

Nutritional studies are challenging to conduct well, and to

standardize dosage the most convincing studies are conducted with

supplements rather than from food itself, which creates its own

issues. For many reasons it's very hard to gain reliable facts about

nutrition through clinical trials, so quality studies are few and far

between.

Hope that helps.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

> Everything I have read says that B12 deficiency is very rare,

especially in

> North America. For a meat eater, is supplementing with B12 or B-

complex

> really just a waste of time if we are not deficient; or will

supplementing

> with B vitamins even though we are not deficient be of any help

with skin

> conditions becasue we have an overlaod of it in our systems?

>

> The b-complex I have been taking also has Biotin and Folic acid

which I

> assume can only help the skin as well--but is supplementing with

any of

> these just a waste of time if there is no deficiency?

> Thanks,

>

>

> >From: " emarjency " <emarjency@s...>

> >To: rosacea-support@y...

> >Subject: more on b12 deficiency

> >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:24:40 -0000

> >

> >Sent to me privately, but I wanted to reply publicly, so the author

> >is not identified:

> >

> >-=-=-=

> >

> >Marjorie, did you all do a search on meating-eating diets and B12

> >deficiencies? It is my understanding that more meat-eating people

> >show a deficiency in B12 than vegans/vegetarians.

> >

> >B12 deficiency is an environmenal, world-wide issue. B12 is a

> >bacteria that lives in the soil. Animals ingest it when they eat

> >grass, etc. Humans used to ingest it when eating vegetables. As

> >well, in a healthy gut, B12 can be manufactured by both animals and

> >humans. However, due to the harmful farming practicies used world-

> >wide, the earth's soil has become alarmly deficient in B12

bacteria.

> >Add to this that most people scrub their vegetables as well most

> >people cook their vegetables before eating them, it's no wonder

that

> >people are becoming B12 deficient.

> >

> >-=-=-=

> >

> >First, B12 is not a bacteria -- it is a vitamin that is made by

> >bacteria. Yes, the bacteria in our bodies makes B12, but even in

the

> >healthiest individuals the majority is made in the lower

intestines,

> >whereas B12 absorption takes place higher in the GI tract (in the

> >small intestines). So B12 from our bodies, healthy or otherwise, is

> >made either too little or too low to be helpful to us. That B12

just

> >gets excreted out along in our feces.

> >

> >In countries without good public health systems, their soil is

> >contaminated with human feces (and its B12), and that's the source

of

> >B12 in humans who eat unwashed vegetables from that soil. They may

> >not be Vitamin B12 deficient, but they are subjected to all the

> >infectious diseases that come from exposure to human waste; that

> >doesn't sound like " harmful farming practices " to me. <g>

> >

> >The problems with B12 deficiency among non-vegetarians has nothing

to

> >do with diet, but is related to the availability and function of

the

> >stomach's intrinsic factor and other requirements for B12 to be

> >properly absorbed from food. So supplementation (in vitamin pills

or

> >fortified foods) is recommended for everyone over the age of 50,

> >whatever diet they are on. (see

> >http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitb12.html)

> >

> >I don't believe people in countries with horrible public health

> >survive commonly into their 50s, but those that do would require

> >supplementation as well, even if they continued to eat their feces-

> >covered vegetables.

> >

> >Stores of B12 are such that it takes decades for a previous meat-

> >eater to develop B12 deficiency. Not so with children, however,

which

> >is why many of the studies in the Medline search talked about

> >children of vegetarian/vegan mothers.

> >

> >Here are some vegetarian sites that support the above information:

> >

> >http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

> >

> >http://chetday.com/b12.html

> >

> >Marjorie

> >

> >Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> >

> >

> >

> >--

> >Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

> >(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you

don't

> >give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change

the

> >subject when replying to a digest !

> >

> >See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

> >

> >To leave the list send an email to

> >rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y...

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your reply below Marjorie--it makes sense to me.

To throw another wrinkle into the fold concerning supplemting with

B-complex, I have read in the attached article that Folic Acid (B9),in mega

doses,can interfere with zinc absorbtion. Everything I have read about

zinc, states that zinc is very important for healthy skin and hair

This author does not quantify what a " mega-dose " is but this kind of worries

me because even if you are supplementing with zinc, the folic acid may be

interfering with its absorbtion. I understand that the B-vitamins all work

better synergistically but could it be that folic acid could do more harm

than good for someone with rosacea and or seb derm or other various skin,

hair problems?

Appreciate any thoughts on this and here is the link to the website which

states this about folic acid--need to scroll down to the Folic Acid

paragraph:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/vitamin-b1.htm

>

>To: rosacea-support

>Subject: Re: more on b12 deficiency

>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 04:32:33 -0000

>

>, B12 is quite rare among the young adults and the middle aged

>but it's not rare at all among the elderly. That's because B12

>deficiency takes decades for the deficiency to fully manifest, and

>the elderly are more likely to develop conditions that impair B12

>absorption. To explain your reading, I would think that young or

>inexperienced health writers may inadvertently not include those over

>aged 50 in their articles about B12, or that it may not support their

>stance to include them.

>

>I don't know the answer regarding proposed skin benefits of

>supplementation beyond the minimum standards, but I suspect so. The

>minimum daily requirements are set to prevent deficiencies -- they're

>the bare minimum, not necessarily the normal or healthy dose. The

>minimum daily requirement of water, for example is far less than the

>more skin-optimal 6-8 glasses a day. So I would assume it's the same

>with some vitamins and minerals (but I don't know that for a fact).

>

>Nutritional studies are challenging to conduct well, and to

>standardize dosage the most convincing studies are conducted with

>supplements rather than from food itself, which creates its own

>issues. For many reasons it's very hard to gain reliable facts about

>nutrition through clinical trials, so quality studies are few and far

>between.

>

>Hope that helps.

>

>Marjorie

>

>Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Everything I have read says that B12 deficiency is very rare,

>especially in

> > North America. For a meat eater, is supplementing with B12 or B-

>complex

> > really just a waste of time if we are not deficient; or will

>supplementing

> > with B vitamins even though we are not deficient be of any help

>with skin

> > conditions becasue we have an overlaod of it in our systems?

> >

> > The b-complex I have been taking also has Biotin and Folic acid

>which I

> > assume can only help the skin as well--but is supplementing with

>any of

> > these just a waste of time if there is no deficiency?

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

> > >From: " emarjency " <emarjency@s...>

> > >To: rosacea-support@y...

> > >Subject: more on b12 deficiency

> > >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:24:40 -0000

> > >

> > >Sent to me privately, but I wanted to reply publicly, so the author

> > >is not identified:

> > >

> > >-=-=-=

> > >

> > >Marjorie, did you all do a search on meating-eating diets and B12

> > >deficiencies? It is my understanding that more meat-eating people

> > >show a deficiency in B12 than vegans/vegetarians.

> > >

> > >B12 deficiency is an environmenal, world-wide issue. B12 is a

> > >bacteria that lives in the soil. Animals ingest it when they eat

> > >grass, etc. Humans used to ingest it when eating vegetables. As

> > >well, in a healthy gut, B12 can be manufactured by both animals and

> > >humans. However, due to the harmful farming practicies used world-

> > >wide, the earth's soil has become alarmly deficient in B12

>bacteria.

> > >Add to this that most people scrub their vegetables as well most

> > >people cook their vegetables before eating them, it's no wonder

>that

> > >people are becoming B12 deficient.

> > >

> > >-=-=-=

> > >

> > >First, B12 is not a bacteria -- it is a vitamin that is made by

> > >bacteria. Yes, the bacteria in our bodies makes B12, but even in

>the

> > >healthiest individuals the majority is made in the lower

>intestines,

> > >whereas B12 absorption takes place higher in the GI tract (in the

> > >small intestines). So B12 from our bodies, healthy or otherwise, is

> > >made either too little or too low to be helpful to us. That B12

>just

> > >gets excreted out along in our feces.

> > >

> > >In countries without good public health systems, their soil is

> > >contaminated with human feces (and its B12), and that's the source

>of

> > >B12 in humans who eat unwashed vegetables from that soil. They may

> > >not be Vitamin B12 deficient, but they are subjected to all the

> > >infectious diseases that come from exposure to human waste; that

> > >doesn't sound like " harmful farming practices " to me. <g>

> > >

> > >The problems with B12 deficiency among non-vegetarians has nothing

>to

> > >do with diet, but is related to the availability and function of

>the

> > >stomach's intrinsic factor and other requirements for B12 to be

> > >properly absorbed from food. So supplementation (in vitamin pills

>or

> > >fortified foods) is recommended for everyone over the age of 50,

> > >whatever diet they are on. (see

> > >http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitb12.html)

> > >

> > >I don't believe people in countries with horrible public health

> > >survive commonly into their 50s, but those that do would require

> > >supplementation as well, even if they continued to eat their feces-

> > >covered vegetables.

> > >

> > >Stores of B12 are such that it takes decades for a previous meat-

> > >eater to develop B12 deficiency. Not so with children, however,

>which

> > >is why many of the studies in the Medline search talked about

> > >children of vegetarian/vegan mothers.

> > >

> > >Here are some vegetarian sites that support the above information:

> > >

> > >http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

> > >

> > >http://chetday.com/b12.html

> > >

> > >Marjorie

> > >

> > >Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >--

> > >Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole group

> > >(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if you

>don't

> > >give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must change

>the

> > >subject when replying to a digest !

> > >

> > >See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published book.

> > >

> > >To leave the list send an email to

> > >rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y...

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

, unless you take multiple pills it's not possible to megadose

on folic acid -- the amount allowable in any single preparation is

restricted by law, since high doses of folic acid can hide the early

side effects of B12 deficiency. I presume megadoses are many times

more than high doses.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> > >

> > > Everything I have read says that B12 deficiency is very rare,

> >especially in

> > > North America. For a meat eater, is supplementing with B12 or

B-

> >complex

> > > really just a waste of time if we are not deficient; or will

> >supplementing

> > > with B vitamins even though we are not deficient be of any help

> >with skin

> > > conditions becasue we have an overlaod of it in our systems?

> > >

> > > The b-complex I have been taking also has Biotin and Folic acid

> >which I

> > > assume can only help the skin as well--but is supplementing with

> >any of

> > > these just a waste of time if there is no deficiency?

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > >

> > > >From: " emarjency " <emarjency@s...>

> > > >To: rosacea-support@y...

> > > >Subject: more on b12 deficiency

> > > >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:24:40 -0000

> > > >

> > > >Sent to me privately, but I wanted to reply publicly, so the

author

> > > >is not identified:

> > > >

> > > >-=-=-=

> > > >

> > > >Marjorie, did you all do a search on meating-eating diets and

B12

> > > >deficiencies? It is my understanding that more meat-eating

people

> > > >show a deficiency in B12 than vegans/vegetarians.

> > > >

> > > >B12 deficiency is an environmenal, world-wide issue. B12 is a

> > > >bacteria that lives in the soil. Animals ingest it when they

eat

> > > >grass, etc. Humans used to ingest it when eating vegetables.

As

> > > >well, in a healthy gut, B12 can be manufactured by both

animals and

> > > >humans. However, due to the harmful farming practicies used

world-

> > > >wide, the earth's soil has become alarmly deficient in B12

> >bacteria.

> > > >Add to this that most people scrub their vegetables as well

most

> > > >people cook their vegetables before eating them, it's no wonder

> >that

> > > >people are becoming B12 deficient.

> > > >

> > > >-=-=-=

> > > >

> > > >First, B12 is not a bacteria -- it is a vitamin that is made by

> > > >bacteria. Yes, the bacteria in our bodies makes B12, but even

in

> >the

> > > >healthiest individuals the majority is made in the lower

> >intestines,

> > > >whereas B12 absorption takes place higher in the GI tract (in

the

> > > >small intestines). So B12 from our bodies, healthy or

otherwise, is

> > > >made either too little or too low to be helpful to us. That B12

> >just

> > > >gets excreted out along in our feces.

> > > >

> > > >In countries without good public health systems, their soil is

> > > >contaminated with human feces (and its B12), and that's the

source

> >of

> > > >B12 in humans who eat unwashed vegetables from that soil. They

may

> > > >not be Vitamin B12 deficient, but they are subjected to all the

> > > >infectious diseases that come from exposure to human waste;

that

> > > >doesn't sound like " harmful farming practices " to me. <g>

> > > >

> > > >The problems with B12 deficiency among non-vegetarians has

nothing

> >to

> > > >do with diet, but is related to the availability and function

of

> >the

> > > >stomach's intrinsic factor and other requirements for B12 to be

> > > >properly absorbed from food. So supplementation (in vitamin

pills

> >or

> > > >fortified foods) is recommended for everyone over the age of

50,

> > > >whatever diet they are on. (see

> > > >http://www.cc.nih.gov/ccc/supplements/vitb12.html)

> > > >

> > > >I don't believe people in countries with horrible public health

> > > >survive commonly into their 50s, but those that do would

require

> > > >supplementation as well, even if they continued to eat their

feces-

> > > >covered vegetables.

> > > >

> > > >Stores of B12 are such that it takes decades for a previous

meat-

> > > >eater to develop B12 deficiency. Not so with children, however,

> >which

> > > >is why many of the studies in the Medline search talked about

> > > >children of vegetarian/vegan mothers.

> > > >

> > > >Here are some vegetarian sites that support the above

information:

> > > >

> > > >http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

> > > >

> > > >http://chetday.com/b12.html

> > > >

> > > >Marjorie

> > > >

> > > >Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >--

> > > >Please read the list highlights before posting to the whole

group

> > > >(http://rosacea.ii.net/toc.html). Your post will be delayed if

you

> >don't

> > > >give a meaningful subject or trim your reply text. You must

change

> >the

> > > >subject when replying to a digest !

> > > >

> > > >See http://www.drnase.com for info on his recently published

book.

> > > >

> > > >To leave the list send an email to

> > > >rosacea-support-unsubscribe@y...

> > > >

> > > >