Re: DS Not eating, worries and concerns

April 3, 2006

It sounds pretty typical of three year old eating patterns. A bite

here, a bite there, then a lot of food sometimes.

But to put your mind at ease, have you used the links from this group

to see how many calories he needs in a day and then used fitday to

determine how many calories he is actually getting?

Jody

mom to -7 and -9

SCD 1/03

April 4, 2006

Hi Gwen,

Your little guy's behavior around food reminds me so much of my daughter's,

pre-SCD.

I'll just tell you what helped my daughter become a happy, hearty eater:

1. Therapeutic doses of probiotics. My daughter gained 5 pounds in 3

months when I started probiotics (this is twice what a " normal " child would

have gained at that age). She went from 10th percentile in height to 25th

percentile and from 25th percentile in weight to 70th! This was before we

started digestive enzymes or SCD. Dr. Natasha -McBride says good

probiotics can increase nutrient absorption by 50%!

2. Digestive enzymes -- I use the Houston AFP Peptizyde and Zyme Prime with

every meal and snack, and I'm sure to request the " SCD compliant formulas "

(which contain cellulose) because Houston still sells enzymes with rice bran

in them and I think cellulose is better. (I've never used No Fenol, but I

think I'm going to try that soon, to help with salicylate and phenol

issues.)

By the way, when I first developed big gut problems myself, I had lots of

bad bellyaches after eating; digestive enzymes greatly reduced the number

and severity of bellyaches for me. And those were ordinary

health-food-store enzymes, not really excellent ones like Houston's.

My daughter acted like a child who felt sick after every time she ate, and

enzymes helped with this.

3. Dr. Natasha recommended an SCD-type anti-diarrhea diet for my daughter

in the beginning. My daughter was pooping once every two to four days and

her stools were usually squashy and occasionally soupy (we had already

eliminated some of the worst soupy-stools foods). I didn't think that was

diarrhea, but Dr. Natasha said she needed this diet and I think she was

right. This is a super-easy-to-digest version of the SCD diet and on this

diet, my non-eating child started to really enjoy eating! Dr. Natasha said

I should keep my daughter on this diet til her stools were solid plus two

weeks after that; and then carefully and slowly transition her to a

" regular " SCD diet.

On this diet, all my daughter could eat was meats cooked in water til

tender (I stewed everything in the crockpot, that was easy and tasty!), fish

either steamed or cooked in water, eggs (yolk could be eaten raw; whites to

be cooked only " just til done " ), broths, and easy-to-digest vegies (no

onions, cabbage, or other harder-to-digest things) peeled and seeded then

cooked til soft and pureed into broth to make soup. Also, of course, pure

water and supps Dr. Natasha recommended. No fruit at all! Each meal was to

consist of a cup of broth, meat or fish or eggs (or any combination), and

creamy vegie soup made with homemade broth.

My daughter was on this diet for several weeks because a " sneaky illegal "

in a supp slowed us down, and then right when she completed her two weeks of

solid stools and was ready for expanding the diet, she had viral

gastroenteritis with diarrhea for a week and I wanted her to have a full two

weeks of solid stools after that before adding new foods. But this was not

a hardship for either her or me -- she was eating really good foods happily

and heartily for the first time since I tried to start her on solids! (The

only things she'd eat much of before were things that were bad for her, that

she was " addicted to " , like green olives, passion fruit sorbet, and potato

chips.)

4. I followed Dr. Natasha's recommendations to go very, very, very slow in

introducing any dairy products. (Her book has guidelines on this.) All our

trials of tiny bits of ghee and homemade goatmilk yogurt " failed " , by the

way. Even now, my daughter is dairy-intolerant and the only dairy I give

her is " X-Factor Butter Oil " , which she does tolerate.

5. All my daughter's drinking, cooking, and toothbrushing water had to be

chlorine-free and fluoride-free.

6. I think it helped that our kitchen at home was gluten-free, because of

my own gluten intolerance. (My doctor and I years before had discovered

that I had to have a gluten-free kitchen, or else I'd get accidental

exposures three or four times a year -- and because it takes 6 weeks to

recover from a gluten exposure, that meant I was spending 4.5 to 6 months

every year with my digestion and absorption impaired by gluten damage! I

fought my doctor's recommendation of a gluten-free kitchen for a long time,

but it turned out she was right. Talk about a " sneaky illegal " -- gluten is

the worst!) Also, something I do now is give my daughter Houston AFP

Peptizyde as " gluten insurance " whenever we're in a situation away from home

where she might accidentally get exposed to gluten.)

There are two things I'd do different if I had it all to do over again,

knowing what I do now. One is, I would stop all supplements except the ones

Dr. Natasha recommended. Supplements are a minefield of " sneaky illegals "

and complications you wouldn't believe! I think supps have actually gotten

in the way of my daughter's gut healing, even though I'm sure they've helped

her in some ways, too. (If I wanted to supplement magnesium, which is very,

very important but quite problematic taken orally for several reasons, I

would do magnesium chloride baths and Epsom salts baths...like we are doing

now.)

The other thing I'd do different is put my daughter on a rotated diet, as

soon as she could eat enough different foods to do that. That's because

she's developed alot of new food allergies. This probably wouldn't have

happened if her gut had really been " healing on schedule " , but it did happen

and I didn't realize it was happening because her stools continued to be

" perfect " for a year and a half on SCD though her gut wasn't healing fully

because of " sneaky illegals " . (It may be that your son already has

developed lots of food allergies because of having a leaky gut for a long

time. If so, a rotated diet of foods he's not allergic to yet would help

him feel better, heal better, and not develop any more allergies.)

Three things that my daughter loved eating, early on, were meats stewed in

the crockpot (yum!), " grouge " , and " Fluffy Soup " . I just posted,

yesterday, a very long post of my menus and recipes, and these things are in

that post, if you want to look them up! Maybe your son would like them,

too!

Well, this sure turned out long, but because your son's " food behavior "

sounds so much like my daughter's before Dr. Natasha's SCD, I thought all

these things that helped my daughter might be a " good fit " for your son,

too!

Kayla

P.S. I do give my daughter Betaine HCl with Pepsin, as recommended by Dr.

Natasha. It's one of those things where I can't really tell whether it

helps or not. But her rationale for using it is convincing!

April 4, 2006

Kayla,

I don't know if you remember my son's story from the CC-Alt group, but he was

dealing mainly with constipation before the diet. Then we started the diet but

not with the intro. He now has diarrhea most of the time and some constipation

so it has gotten worse in some ways. He also has some undigested foods in his

bms which hasn't happened for a very long time. I think the overeating of fruit

is a big factor and won't eating too much fruit always cause diarrhea?

Honestly, I'm a little apprehensive about limiting his diet even more. I

believe in autonomy around eating and have some concern that he will become

obessive about food but I'm willing to do the intro and see what happens. We

tried eating some of the foods on the intro and I found them repulsive...perhaps

I'm not a good cook...LOL.

Wildman wrote:

" Therapeutic doses of probiotics. My daughter gained 5 pounds in 3

months when I started probiotics (this is twice what a " normal " child would

have gained at that age). "

I remember your advice from before to try probiotics first. We tried them for

several months with no noticeable improvement. I think the Culturelle is too

hard on his stomach. It definately was too much for mine. The die off was

amazingly horrible! His stomach is still so bloated after several months. I'm

thinking Acidolphilus may be better but I just don't know. I'm also conflicted

about whether to take N.C-McBride's advice on probiotics or Elaine's. Elaine, I

think, had the rationale that too many good guys can become problematic just as

the bad guys can. What do you think? Obviously for you, they work.

" Digestive enzymes -- I use the Houston AFP Peptizyde and Zyme Prime "

I,too, was doing this for some time and saw no weight gain. When he was

eating wheat with the enzymes, his bms were great! He was eating lots and

pooping once per day at least. Then I took wheat/grains out, started SCD and he

his bms didn't look that great anymore. They are just really mushy and soupy.

" By the way, when I first developed big gut problems myself, I had lots of

bad bellyaches after eating; digestive enzymes greatly reduced the number

and severity of bellyaches for me. "

I haven't found this to be true for myself but I could have the dosing

incorrect.

" This is a super-easy-to-digest version of the SCD diet and on this

diet, my non-eating child started to really enjoy eating! "

I think my child really does enjoy eating most of the time. He loves food but

some days he just seems to eat a few bites of a lot of different things. He

eats a huge variety of foods except for veggies. I think that going back to

cooking everything instead of raw will help. I also wonder if he just isn't a

normal kid who just doesn't feel like eating his carrots. We do a rotation diet

without trying. I hate eating the same thing over and over again. We always

try to mix it up though I will say that when I wasn't mixing it up that much, I

felt fine. I don't know about ds.

" (The

only things she'd eat much of before were things that were bad for her, that

she was " addicted to " , like green olives, passion fruit sorbet, and potato

chips.) "

Yeah, I never really saw any addictions except for wheat. Part of the

addictive type behavior was based on the fact taht I wasn't allowing bread or

pasta in our house. He would go crazy when he saw them out. For myself, I have

had no real cravings for forbidden foods though I know that it would taste good

to eat bread or milk. I'm more worried about my weight. I think now I'm

convinced that I won't lose weight on this diet so I feel more at ease in doing

it. I cannot afford to lose weight like I did a few years ago.

" I followed Dr. Natasha's recommendations to go very, very, very slow in

introducing any dairy products. "

Again, I'm not sure that I've seen any affects of eating dairy for either one

of us. I plan to try and test for lactose/casein intolerance. I understand why

we are not drinking milk...well sometimes I think I understand but there's other

theories about that that conflict and make me wonder. When I eat dairy,

especially milk, I will tell you, that I feel great! I feel full and energetic.

Milk is the only thing I really miss and I have to say it doesn't feel like a

craving or addiction. Perhaps it because I need the calcium. I order calcium

supps. I am not crazy aobut giving ds supps. I think he should get everything

he needs through eating.

" I think it helped that our kitchen at home was gluten-free, because of

my own gluten intolerance. "

Yes, I'm not there yet. My dh still eats muesli for breakfast. He refuses to

get rid of it. He is careful not to get it anywhere but he just ain't giving it

up. Got any suggestions for that one?

Lastly, I would say that for myself, I'm doing good. I feel really great

especially when I'm exercising and meditating. My gut is doing so much better

and I'm learning what makes me feel ill. I would just like to find a probiotic

that works for us. I'm taking acidophilus right now. I eat lots of yogurt with

no ill affects. I cannot eat too much fermented foods.

" (If I wanted to supplement magnesium, which is very,

very important but quite problematic taken orally for several reasons, I

would do magnesium chloride baths and Epsom salts baths...like we are doing

now.) "

I just ordered epsom cream and magnesium supps. I am wondering what is

problematic about mag when taken orally. I had heard somewhere that the gut can

become dependent on it...or that it causes the gut muscles to be too relaxed.

Is this what you are talking about? We do espsom salt baths.

Thanks

Gwen

Luca - 3

SCD 5 weeks, for digestive issues and low growth rate

For information on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, please read the book

_Breaking the Vicious Cycle_ by Elaine Gottschall and read the following

websites:

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info

and

http://www.pecanbread.com

April 4, 2006

My son did not have a negative reaction with HCI.

How much does your son weigh?

Are you also taking other enzymes and probiotics?

You might want to consider only letting him have fruit and honey after he's

eaten veggies and meat.

Agape,

Gwen Pollara wrote:

I'm still struggling with my son not eating. He ate a ton last night but it

was because we had a party (very SCD friendly...and no one complained). There

was lots of food and he had a friend there. My husband made proscuitto wrapped

cantaloupe and melted brie and apples, steak, fish, carrots, stuffed

zucchini....

Today my little one is back to feeling lowsy and not eating much. He's hungry

I can tell. I am just so worried. He seems to be fairly normal in that he eats

sometimes and not others. But he just doesn't go for much of the SCD staples

except for the yogurt and even that is waning (I'm going to put him on calcium

supps now). He ends up just eating fruit and honey. I have tried to explain to

him that this won't do him much good if he doesn't also eat meat and

veggies....oh how I wish he would eat his veggies.

I've hired a woman to cook for me for a couple of days per week. She's read

through the legal/illegal list and has come up with some stuff. She uses

Nourishing Traditions type food so she isn't too far off from our diet. I'm very

excited as she uses all organic, in season, local produce and meats. She also

teaches people how to ferment foods...when we are ready for this.

My concern though is whether my skinny guy is getting enough calories. And

how do I get him to eat what doesn't feel good to him. For instance, tonight we

had chicken. He loves chicken normally, but he took a few bites and then said

no more. He ate the heads off several broccoli spears dipped in Holandaise

sauce. That was it. Is that enough? I'm not into the reward thing for eating

and I'm concerned about being too controlling about food, because I hated it

when my mother tried to force me to " eat my peas " . How do I know what he

needs? I know that for myself, I just don't feel like eating somedays but then

I know I need calories or something to make me feel better. I know what foods

those are and the results of eating them. I'm trying to teach him this but it's

slow going. I'm also worried that he will be obssesed with eating and food as

that is all we talk about these days. Plus I'm cooking all the time!

I guess I'm looking for the secret ingredient to just see a little

improvement in his eating. Are his eating habits " normal " for a little 3 year

old boy? Everyone else with kids comments on how much he does eat! He's just

not gaining all that much. I feel, sometimes, like a neglectful mother because

I feel like he's not getting the kind of foods that make him gain weight. He

acts hungry but then just doesn't eat that much which sounds like reflux to me.

Has anyone tried HCI for their kids or themselves? That might be my next move

and is recommended by Dr. Natasha -McBride.

Thanks

gwen

luca-3

SCD 5 weeks, second time around, for digestive problems and low growth.

" Today a new sun rises for me; everything lives,

everything is animated, everything seems to speak

to me of my passion, everything invites me to cherish it. "

--Anne de Lenclos--

---------------------------------

How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

April 5, 2006

Well,

I went to see my midwife friend who is helping us with this diet and doing

some tests on both my son and I. I want to give the stool tests a try and see

what we find.

My son weighed 26.5 pounds at the office which is the 5th percentile. So in a

way this is good news. I thought he had dropped off the charts again. He used

to be at the 3rd percentile but gained in early Fall. He is 25% for height. I

am on the cusp of being underweight at 105 and 5ft2in. My midwife and I agree

that I look and act healthy. And I am. I am active and energetic. I am one of

those people who can get up off the couch and climb a 14,000 foot mountain, no

problem except that I'm a little slow. Slow as she goes....

Anyway, I would love to " enforce " the fruit after veggies but find my

philosophy on eating getting in my way of doing that. I see my son eating

veggies sometimes and other times (most of the time, yes) he eats fruit. He

tends toward constipation so I think he is drawn to the laxative effect of

fruit.

The other concern I have, is our protein intake. WE eat sooooo much protein.

I feel buzzy all the time and I think ds does too. He has been so restless at

night. He had been sleeping fairly well until we started the diet again. Does

anyone know if too much protein can cause a buzzy feeling. I don't think it is

die off anymore.

I think we should be eating more carbs than protein as this seems more

balanced. Am I correct?

Also wondering where you get your HCI?

Thanks gwen

Luca - 3

SCD 5 weeks for digestive problems, constipation and low growth rate.

" Today a new sun rises for me; everything lives,

everything is animated, everything seems to speak

to me of my passion, everything invites me to cherish it. "

--Anne de Lenclos--

---------------------------------

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

April 5, 2006

Hi Gwen!

You are correct. According to standards that Jody posted a couple weeks ago.

We are supposed to have 50 - 55% carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein.

SCD is not low carb . . . just specific carb.

I, personally, struggle with this because the protein is what my kids digest

best. When I try to up their carbs we get issues with yeast and sometimes

diarrhea. I wish had the solution to relay, but I am currently dealing with

this difficulty myself. Anything that has a high " carb " amount seems to feed

yeast. And since yeast is still a difficulty for us (although we are seeing it

less and less), I find myself having to choose the lesser of two evils (low carb

intake or feed the yeast). And I can't even tell you which one is the lesser of

two evils. Throw into the picture that I can't seem to get my kids enough

calories (due to the fact that we are casein/gluten free, not many nuts, and

trying not to overdo the meat), I get completely overwhelmed.

Well, I didn't mean to dump on you. But I wanted to say that yes, we are

supposed to have a high carb intake. The problem is that I don't know how you

should accomplish this if you find yourself in the same situation as us.

And, if anyone else, knows how to solve this problem. PLEASE TELL ME!

Jeni Lynn (gastrointestinal problems)

SCD 2 months

mom to Margeaux, 6 yr. (heavy metal toxicity, add, gastrointestinal problems)

, 3 yr. (heavy metal toxicity, at risk for add, gastrointestinal problems)

Elle, 18 mo. (heavy metal toxicity, leaky gut, eczema)

SCD 4 months

Re: DS Not eating, worries and concerns

Well,

I went to see my midwife friend who is helping us with this diet and doing

some tests on both my son and I. I want to give the stool tests a try and see

what we find.

My son weighed 26.5 pounds at the office which is the 5th percentile. So in

a way this is good news. I thought he had dropped off the charts again. He

used to be at the 3rd percentile but gained in early Fall. He is 25% for

height. I am on the cusp of being underweight at 105 and 5ft2in. My midwife

and I agree that I look and act healthy. And I am. I am active and energetic.

I am one of those people who can get up off the couch and climb a 14,000 foot

mountain, no problem except that I'm a little slow. Slow as she goes....

Anyway, I would love to " enforce " the fruit after veggies but find my

philosophy on eating getting in my way of doing that. I see my son eating

veggies sometimes and other times (most of the time, yes) he eats fruit. He

tends toward constipation so I think he is drawn to the laxative effect of

fruit.

The other concern I have, is our protein intake. WE eat sooooo much

protein. I feel buzzy all the time and I think ds does too. He has been so

restless at night. He had been sleeping fairly well until we started the diet

again. Does anyone know if too much protein can cause a buzzy feeling. I don't

think it is die off anymore.

I think we should be eating more carbs than protein as this seems more

balanced. Am I correct?

Also wondering where you get your HCI?

Thanks gwen

Luca - 3

SCD 5 weeks for digestive problems, constipation and low growth rate.

" Today a new sun rises for me; everything lives,

everything is animated, everything seems to speak

to me of my passion, everything invites me to cherish it. "

--Anne de Lenclos--

---------------------------------

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save

big.

April 5, 2006

magnesium, vit c and EFAs help combat constipation.

Agape,

Gwen Pollara wrote:

Well,

I went to see my midwife friend who is helping us with this diet and doing

some tests on both my son and I. I want to give the stool tests a try and see

what we find.

My son weighed 26.5 pounds at the office which is the 5th percentile. So in a

way this is good news. I thought he had dropped off the charts again. He used

to be at the 3rd percentile but gained in early Fall. He is 25% for height. I

am on the cusp of being underweight at 105 and 5ft2in. My midwife and I agree

that I look and act healthy. And I am. I am active and energetic. I am one of

those people who can get up off the couch and climb a 14,000 foot mountain, no

problem except that I'm a little slow. Slow as she goes....

Anyway, I would love to " enforce " the fruit after veggies but find my

philosophy on eating getting in my way of doing that. I see my son eating

veggies sometimes and other times (most of the time, yes) he eats fruit. He

tends toward constipation so I think he is drawn to the laxative effect of

fruit.

The other concern I have, is our protein intake. WE eat sooooo much protein.

I feel buzzy all the time and I think ds does too. He has been so restless at

night. He had been sleeping fairly well until we started the diet again. Does

anyone know if too much protein can cause a buzzy feeling. I don't think it is

die off anymore.

I think we should be eating more carbs than protein as this seems more

balanced. Am I correct?

Also wondering where you get your HCI?

Thanks gwen

Luca - 3

SCD 5 weeks for digestive problems, constipation and low growth rate.

" Today a new sun rises for me; everything lives,

everything is animated, everything seems to speak

to me of my passion, everything invites me to cherish it. "

--Anne de Lenclos--

---------------------------------

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

April 5, 2006

Hi,

I have only a few minutes to write but wanted to respond to this...

> According to standards that Jody posted a couple weeks ago. We are

supposed to have 50 - 55%

> carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein.

I don't know where the standards Jody posted came from, or whether they are

supposed to be for adults, children, or both -- but I can tell you that many

medical researchers and doctors would disagree with these standards, at

least for adults...particularly the researchers/doctors who are

*successfully* treating (without the usual dead-end allopathic drugs)

obesity, Type II diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, and related

health problems. These folks would say lower (or much, much lower) carb

intake (especially insulin-stimulating carbs), higher protein, fat about the

same or somewhat higher (depending on calorie needs).

I'm hesitant to write more because we're not supposed to recommend/discuss

other diets on this list, and most of the readily available information in

this area is in the form of books/articles/websites etc. on

diet...obviously.

Maybe I can just point out that in the traditional diets of the Arctic

peoples, about 70% of calories came from animal fats (blubber!) and about

30% of calories came from animal protein. Extremely little carbohydrate was

eaten. The Arctic natives were legendary for their strength and endurance.

European explorers who adopted the native diet while exploring in the Arctic

thrived on it.

Kayla

April 5, 2006

>

These folks would say lower (or much, much lower) carb

> intake (especially insulin-stimulating carbs), higher protein, fat about the

> same or somewhat higher (depending on calorie needs).

>

> I'm hesitant to write more because we're not supposed to recommend/discuss

Kayla,

It is imprtant that we do not get too high a protein ratio as it risks ketosis.

This was a

typical misunderstanding that even doctors had with SCD because they were not

familkiar

with it and consluded it was a low carb diet.

Carol F.

April 5, 2006

Kayla,

I am right there with you! The only foods that gave Ella with

Crohns formed stools were protein sources and very little carbs early

on in her SCDiet. This SCDiet is progressive in that you can add

more carbs later on as the gut heals itself. There is no reason to

fear lots and lots of meat, soup, bone broth and little else when

there are acute symptoms. It is the very thing our kids need that

have diarrhea. Ella was always bleeding, anemic, and inflamed with

the high carb, SADiet. The iron supplements didn't solve that

problem. It was finally the meats with the easier form of iron,

b12's etc to digest. These meats dont have fiber or too much sugar

that the body can't tolerate yet.

Particularly in Ella's case red meat as in steak, hamburger was and

is her staple. The very thing Ella ate so little of in her previous 4

years of life was the very thing that gave her her health back. We

just had to get her over the hurdle of eating it. With higher fat,

salt and an adjustment period with some bribes along the way she

developed the taste, got ride of her cravings, and began her journey

back to health without life long medications and their side effects.

This is a very difficult phase as so many attest here. There is so

little support from the medical community and all meat, soup, little

carb seems intuitive wrong for a child that has cravings, die off,

doesn't feel good. The very thing they thing that will make them

feel good is the wrong food to give them. It demands that parents

have faith and be strong with little family, friends, Doctors,

support. Thank God for this listserve and all the great

compassionate, intelligent, and convicted minds here. I was out on a

island for a long long time before I met you all and read your

stories.

Ella had such a leaky gut that she could only eat the easiest to

digest foods that there is. Aren't meats and fat simply food that

was already digested by another animal? It can't get much more

elemental than this other then the bone broth and soup recipe.

Isn't the SCDiet 3-5 day intro diet hugely based on protein to starve

gut bugs and eliminate all complex sugars? For Ella we never did do

the cheesecake and dairy parts because she was moderately sensitive

to them. Still the DCCC is mostly protein right? We just gave her

2-3 tablespoons or less of just one of these items (butternut squash,

pearsauce, or applesauce) She was one that did tolerate banana very

well but I know some can't with acute symptoms. Those sources of

glucose along with very little juice was always given with 2-3

chicken thighs, 1-2 hamburger patti's, A full tenderloin steak, or a

large helping of scrambled eggs. Ella to this day is always hungry

and I believe in a growth spurt after 3-4 months of a plateau. She

eats like a horse. She's grown 1lb in two months which is high

normal for a 4 year old. Her bloodwork, CRP are all now in the

normal range after being extremely out of whack. CRP was 18! at one

point.

The soup recipe on the intro is the real other part with great bone

broth that can be added to it to make it even tastier and more

nutritious. And as Elaine quoted Dr. Gee which hangs above my

desk: " We must never forget that what the patient takes beyond his

ability to digest does harm " . If you cant form stools with the food

you are eating then you can't digest it. There is die off and

regressions that can cause softness for Ella but they occured less

and less over time.

I firmly believe like so many others that folks early in the diet

should be very very careful with too much too soon. First get to

formed stools with high meats, little carbs, soup/bone broth all SCD

approved. Then work from that point. Scale back on the cooked and

pureed carbs, fruit, squash, beans, until you find this point of

solid stools. I think you mentioned this was Dr. Natasha's SCDiet

easy to digest method. Kids fight this tooth and nail. There in

lies the rub why many don't carry it out. Parents aren't committed

to just meat & fat/soup/little carbs. They've been taught for years

the SAD.

On the question of enzymes early with acute symptoms. In an attempt

to broaden the diet early wouldn't they confuse the issue? From what

I hear they are difficult at first and can cause die off, excerbating

the diarrhea. Same goes with the yogurt too early. There are so

many different kinds, many don't know if they are sensitive to dairy

or not yet. It took us three times finally to get it right with

goats milk a non dairy starter and then dripping it before tolerance

3.5months into the diet.

Its kind of like skiing here. YOu have to trust to lean out over

your skiis away from the hill before get going right. Only many of

these issues are life and death so the stakes are even higher and it

requires even more faith.

I am really curious if any one here who has had UC/Crohns kids with

bleeding uclers go a different route then the one above? I can't

imagine that there is. We've lived the above so I am convinced of it.

Brent Father of Ella Crohns 4years old SCD 5months

>

> Hi,

>

> I have only a few minutes to write but wanted to respond to

this...

>

> > According to standards that Jody posted a couple weeks ago. We

are

> supposed to have 50 - 55%

> > carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein.

>

> I don't know where the standards Jody posted came from, or

whether they are

> supposed to be for adults, children, or both -- but I can tell you

that many

> medical researchers and doctors would disagree with these

standards, at

> least for adults...particularly the researchers/doctors who are

> *successfully* treating (without the usual dead-end allopathic

drugs)

> obesity, Type II diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, and

carb

> intake (especially insulin-stimulating carbs), higher protein, fat

about the

> same or somewhat higher (depending on calorie needs).

>

> I'm hesitant to write more because we're not supposed to

recommend/discuss

> other diets on this list, and most of the readily available

information in

> this area is in the form of books/articles/websites etc. on

> diet...obviously.

>

> Maybe I can just point out that in the traditional diets of

the Arctic

> peoples, about 70% of calories came from animal fats (blubber!) and

about

> 30% of calories came from animal protein. Extremely little

carbohydrate was

> eaten. The Arctic natives were legendary for their strength and

endurance.

> European explorers who adopted the native diet while exploring in

the Arctic

> thrived on it.

>

> Kayla

>

April 5, 2006

I am going to say that I completely agree with Kayla on this one, I was

going to write this exact thing myself but she beat me to it. Everyone has

an individual ratio that works best for them, the trick is finding it. SCD

can be a low carb diet, it can be a high carb diet, it can be what ever

makes it work. I think too often people don't do well on this diet because

they focus too much on getting enought carbs and not enough on healing the

gut.

Carbohydrates are the only macronutrient that do not need to be included in

a diet for survival

>

>Reply-To: pecanbread

>To: <pecanbread >

>Subject: RE: DS Not eating, worries and concerns

>Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:09:30 -0700

>

>Hi,

>

> I have only a few minutes to write but wanted to respond to this...

>

> > According to standards that Jody posted a couple weeks ago. We are

>supposed to have 50 - 55%

> > carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein.

>

> I don't know where the standards Jody posted came from, or whether they

>are

>supposed to be for adults, children, or both -- but I can tell you that

>many

>medical researchers and doctors would disagree with these standards, at

>least for adults...particularly the researchers/doctors who are

>*successfully* treating (without the usual dead-end allopathic drugs)

>obesity, Type II diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, and related

>health problems. These folks would say lower (or much, much lower) carb

>intake (especially insulin-stimulating carbs), higher protein, fat about

>the

>same or somewhat higher (depending on calorie needs).

>

> I'm hesitant to write more because we're not supposed to recommend/discuss

>other diets on this list, and most of the readily available information in

>this area is in the form of books/articles/websites etc. on

>diet...obviously.

>

> Maybe I can just point out that in the traditional diets of the Arctic

>peoples, about 70% of calories came from animal fats (blubber!) and about

>30% of calories came from animal protein. Extremely little carbohydrate

>was

>eaten. The Arctic natives were legendary for their strength and endurance.

>European explorers who adopted the native diet while exploring in the

>Arctic

>thrived on it.

>

>Kayla

>

_________________________________________________________________

On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to

get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

April 5, 2006

50 - 55% carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein.

" I don't know where the standards Jody posted came from, or whether

they are supposed to be for adults, children, or both -- but I can

tell you that many medical researchers and doctors would disagree with

these standards, at least for adults "

I got the standards from a dietician.

Not being a medical professional myself, I cannot really make

recommendations on my own.

I can tell you that my younger son definitely prefers protein to any

other food group. When offered a hamburger or an apple, he would most

definitely choose a hamburger. If he is offered an apple, he will

always ask for nut butter to go with it. Don't get me wrong, he does

like fruits and veggies, but he LOVES meat, eggs, cheese and yogurt.

If he had his way, every meal would have MEAT in it...LOL.

I can say to do whatever works best for your child and yourself. I

can only report to the list what has been told to me.

I think nutrition is the weakest area in the treatment of ASD kids.

Parents are told " do GFCF " or " do SCD " or whatever diet... but they

aren't given any parameters to guide them as they implement these

diets. If some of the doctors and researchers would come up with some

good guidelines that would help a lot.

I'll ask around at the DAN! conference and see if anyone will talk

about it with me.

I do know that one DAN! practitioner once told me 30 protein/30 fat/40

carbs.

I'll let everyone know if I find out anything helpful when I get back

Monday.

Jody

mom to -7 and -9

SCD 1/03

April 5, 2006

Hi Jody,

You do an incredible service to people free of charge of your own

fruition. That is inspirational. It is tough work. I noticed that

Sheila Trenholm has not been available to post here so your load is

even more as Carol has mentioned.

I feel very welcome but also a little out of place her with an child

thats non ASD but rather with Crohns and had a history of bleeding

ulcers. Most seem to battle ASD and constipation.

I wonder though...Does it seem right to find formed stools first then

begin to expand from there? As in logs which we know are created for

those with diarrhea with more protein less carbs? Then once there

expand the glucose/fiberous foods as long as the BM's are formed

logs?

I have always had a problem knowing if it was Die off or a food

irritant? For me it was getting to know exactly what Ella could

digest on her own to get the base line of knowledge I could always

return to in the event of a regression, die off, cold. It seems

these regressions take less and less time. Ella who once could only

tolerate 1/8th teaspooon of Goat yogurt is now up to 4-5

Tablespoons+. Thanks to you and Sheila and other moderators for this

schedule of introducing yogurt...in her case goat yogurt finally

worked.

Perhaps the unknown consequence of being overly concerned with

a " ketosis diet " of high protein and then a set percentage of carbs

protein fat confuses the " progressive " nature of SCDiet and the

healing nature of high protein early in the process?????

Brent

Father of Ella Crohns 4yrs old SCD 5months.

>

> 50 - 55% carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein.

>

> " I don't know where the standards Jody posted came from, or whether

> they are supposed to be for adults, children, or both -- but I can

> tell you that many medical researchers and doctors would disagree

with

> these standards, at least for adults "

>

> I got the standards from a dietician.

>

> Not being a medical professional myself, I cannot really make

> recommendations on my own.

>

> I can tell you that my younger son definitely prefers protein to any

> other food group. When offered a hamburger or an apple, he would

most

> definitely choose a hamburger. If he is offered an apple, he will

> always ask for nut butter to go with it. Don't get me wrong, he

does

> like fruits and veggies, but he LOVES meat, eggs, cheese and yogurt.

> If he had his way, every meal would have MEAT in it...LOL.

>

> I can say to do whatever works best for your child and yourself. I

> can only report to the list what has been told to me.

>

> I think nutrition is the weakest area in the treatment of ASD kids.

> Parents are told " do GFCF " or " do SCD " or whatever diet... but they

> aren't given any parameters to guide them as they implement these

> diets. If some of the doctors and researchers would come up with

some

> good guidelines that would help a lot.

>

> I'll ask around at the DAN! conference and see if anyone will talk

> about it with me.

>

> I do know that one DAN! practitioner once told me 30 protein/30

fat/40

> carbs.

>

> I'll let everyone know if I find out anything helpful when I get

back

> Monday.

>

> Jody

> mom to -7 and -9

> SCD 1/03

>

April 5, 2006

Hi Brent,

Thanks for sharing your story and thoughts on this topic.

I was lucky that my child fairly easily accepted crockpotted meats, broth,

and grouge...though not in large amounts til we started Dr. Natasha's

anti-diarrhea introductory diet. It was not a struggle to get her to eat in

those introductory days -- though I had been struggling to get her to eat

solids for about 15 months before that! (When all my friends were talking

about the solids their babies were eating, I used to joke that my daughter's

favorite solid foods were paper and cardboard...but it wasn't actually a

joke, and it got less and less funny as the months wore on.)

I had the advantage that my daughter was not addicted to grains and

gluteomorphins as so many ASD toddlers are. I had known just enough about

dysbiosis to avoid feeding her grains -- except for one disastrous

quarter-teaspoon of baby rice cereal at 11 months.

Kayla

April 5, 2006

Hi Jody,

If you are interested in reading " alternative " views on protein:carb:fat

ratios, I would be glad to email you offlist with the titles and authors of

three or four good books.

The 30/30/40 ratio is a " good one " in terms of matching the ratio of a

hunter-gatherer diet. Humans were hunter-gatherers for 100,000 years and

some of us have been farmers for only 10,000 years. Genetically few people

are well adapted to an agricultural diet high in grains, beans, and

sugars -- and grain-fattened meats.

The general idea of the " alternative " ratios is to try to match the ratios

humans are best metabolically adapted to, based on genetics. Some of the

docs use a " primitive-diet-matching " ratio, period. Others start patients

off with a rather severe restriction on carbs then allow a slow increase to

a " matching " ratio after weight, blood pressure, insulin levels and

sensitivity, etc. have been normal and stable for at least several weeks.

One diabetes specialist keeps his patients on a severely restricted carb

level permanently in order to achieve normal blood sugars around the clock.

I think you'd find the alternative points of view very interesting. Let me

know (and give me an offlist email address) if you'd like the info on those

books.

Have a good time at the conference!

Kayla

>

April 6, 2006

" > According to standards that Jody posted a couple weeks ago. We are

supposed to have 50 - 55%

> carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein. "

this sounds similiar to the ratios in the diet of prehistoric peoples.

I have also heard that people like the Inuits, had a higher incidence of

osteoporsis and those people with a higher carb intake had a lower incidence of

osteoporosis. I will find the source of that info if needed. I'm doing a lot

of research right now. I, too, worry about ketosis and a diet high in protein,

for myself, doesn't feel right.

True, this conversation could confusing and I agree with those of you who say

do what intuitively feels best for your child.

gwen

luca-3

scd 5 weeks digestive problems

" Today a new sun rises for me; everything lives,

everything is animated, everything seems to speak

to me of my passion, everything invites me to cherish it. "

--Anne de Lenclos--

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

April 6, 2006

I'm so there with you Kayla.

ASD kids don't process starchy carbs well; many of us parents have known this

for years.

SCD has less carbs than SAD and GFCFSF, because there is no starch; thank God

! That's why are kids are thriving on this diet.

I don't know the perfect carb/protein/fat ratio for SCD ( it's not high this

or low that), but I know it's more equally balanced than SAD and GFCFSF.

Agape,

Wildman wrote:

Hi,

I have only a few minutes to write but wanted to respond to this...

> According to standards that Jody posted a couple weeks ago. We are

supposed to have 50 - 55%

> carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein.

I don't know where the standards Jody posted came from, or whether they

are

supposed to be for adults, children, or both -- but I can tell you that many

medical researchers and doctors would disagree with these standards, at

least for adults...particularly the researchers/doctors who are

*successfully* treating (without the usual dead-end allopathic drugs)

obesity, Type II diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, and related

health problems. These folks would say lower (or much, much lower) carb

intake (especially insulin-stimulating carbs), higher protein, fat about the

same or somewhat higher (depending on calorie needs).

I'm hesitant to write more because we're not supposed to recommend/discuss

other diets on this list, and most of the readily available information in

this area is in the form of books/articles/websites etc. on

diet...obviously.

Maybe I can just point out that in the traditional diets of the Arctic

peoples, about 70% of calories came from animal fats (blubber!) and about

30% of calories came from animal protein. Extremely little carbohydrate was

eaten. The Arctic natives were legendary for their strength and endurance.

European explorers who adopted the native diet while exploring in the Arctic

thrived on it.

Kayla

For information on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, please read the book

_Breaking the Vicious Cycle_ by Elaine Gottschall and read the following

websites:

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info

and

http://www.pecanbread.com

April 6, 2006

It's really easy and inexpensive to test for ketosis; there are strips on which

to urinate.

Agape,

Gwen Pollara wrote:

" > According to standards that Jody posted a couple weeks ago. We are

supposed to have 50 - 55%

> carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein. "

this sounds similiar to the ratios in the diet of prehistoric peoples.

I have also heard that people like the Inuits, had a higher incidence of

osteoporsis and those people with a higher carb intake had a lower incidence of

osteoporosis. I will find the source of that info if needed. I'm doing a lot

of research right now. I, too, worry about ketosis and a diet high in protein,

for myself, doesn't feel right.

True, this conversation could confusing and I agree with those of you who say

do what intuitively feels best for your child.

gwen

luca-3

scd 5 weeks digestive problems

" Today a new sun rises for me; everything lives,

everything is animated, everything seems to speak

to me of my passion, everything invites me to cherish it. "

--Anne de Lenclos--

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

April 6, 2006

I wonder if we should think of it in terms of the " Proof is in the

POO! " If Ella is forming stools that are logs which taper at the end

then she is able to digest the food given to her. Elaine said to

back off fruits and veggies early in the diet and simply eliminate

them and try them again at a later date. We did this and it worked.

The percentage was probably 70-90% meats/eggs/soup/broth

Percentages have never been thought of for ELla. I know she

tolerates a lot more of the easy to digest glucose/fructose foods on

phase one now then she ever did before. The percentage is increasing

towards the carb side. Perhaps a year from now she will settle into

some kind of percentage that is stable and could be talked about in a

meaningful way for those cured of all their symptoms. Until we can

move down the list of digestable foods and Ella can tolerate them we

will continue to go slow and watch what each food does to her stool

formation.

Seeing slight constipation for us is a sign she is ready to tolerate

more foods so I try to introduce another. There are other signs to

look at like excema, gas, etc. that Gertrude Snicklegrove as so aptly

pointed out in watching her kids. Ultimately I control what Ella

eats based solely on Stool formation, frequency, within the

miraculous SCDiet protocol. When she asks for more food I give it

too her without hesitation and that is frequent.

Kids with uclers, chronic diarrhea, UC/Crohns can take 1-2 years

before your on the full blown SCDiet with your child digesting all

the foods depending of how acute symptoms are according to Elaine.

Percentages are a moving target. This diet seems to be very

progressive from heavy meats little glucose early then broadening out

as your child can tolerate with better her improved macrovillia,

pancreas, enzyme production, lower inflammation, and overall healing.

Its a wonderful thing. One progresses and its often two steps forward

one step back. I don't think we can lose sight of the fact that we

need to listen and watch our child then talor the SCDiet according to

their symptoms, stool formation. Setting a % might be very helpful

for those that have been on the diet for months, years with full

digestability and tolerance. For those early on it could make one

lose sight of the kernal of truth--formed stools. Especially when

you sit down in GI's meetings and they ask with a very skeptical tone

how her stools are doing on the diet? Is she still bleeding?

Brent Father of ELLA Crohns age 4, SCD 5months

> Hi,

>

> I have only a few minutes to write but wanted to respond to

this...

>

> > According to standards that Jody posted a couple weeks ago. We

are

> supposed to have 50 - 55%

> > carb intake, 30% fat, and 15 - 20% protein.

>

> I don't know where the standards Jody posted came from, or

whether they are

> supposed to be for adults, children, or both -- but I can tell you

that many

> medical researchers and doctors would disagree with these

standards, at

> least for adults...particularly the researchers/doctors who are

> *successfully* treating (without the usual dead-end allopathic

drugs)

> obesity, Type II diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, and

carb

> intake (especially insulin-stimulating carbs), higher protein, fat

about the

> same or somewhat higher (depending on calorie needs).

>

> I'm hesitant to write more because we're not supposed to

recommend/discuss

> other diets on this list, and most of the readily available

information in

> this area is in the form of books/articles/websites etc. on

> diet...obviously.

>

> Maybe I can just point out that in the traditional diets of

the Arctic

> peoples, about 70% of calories came from animal fats (blubber!) and

about

> 30% of calories came from animal protein. Extremely little

carbohydrate was

> eaten. The Arctic natives were legendary for their strength and

endurance.

> European explorers who adopted the native diet while exploring in

the Arctic

> thrived on it.

>

> Kayla

>

> For information on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, please read the

book _Breaking the Vicious Cycle_ by Elaine Gottschall and read the

following websites:

> http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info

> and

> http://www.pecanbread.com

>

April 6, 2006

Hi Brent!

My kids swing between constipation and diarrhea, and I am still struggling to

find much rhyme and reason to it. It seems like if they don't digest something

properly they can go either way . I can't even find the baseline that you talk

about because as soon as I begin to " correct " something, they swing to the

opposite extreme of what they had before. When I give them a lot of protein for

a while, they get constipated with black, impacted stools (a sign of liver

troubles). But then when I introduce a carb we get green diarrhea or pudding

poops. My kids urine OAT tests indicate they have metabolic problems that may

be caused by a ketosis diet . . . and yet they are not yet tolerating very many

carbs, so I feel like I can't do much to change this. It seems like I am caught

in a trap here.

Your input on this discussion makes so much sense. I am just having so much

trouble with applying it to the reality that I am experiencing.

Do you have any guidance for someone in my shoes? I wish I at least had this

baseline that you have found with Ella. Since you are a bit further down this

road, can you guess where my baseline might be, or how I can find it? I am

getting frustrated.

Thanks!

Jeni Lynn (gastrointestinal problems)

SCD 2 months

mom to Margeaux, 6 yr. (heavy metal toxicity, ADD, gastrointestinal problems)

, 3 yr. (heavy metal toxicity, risk for ADD, gastrointestinal problems)