Repost (and reply): more on B12

[Guest guest]

From the first sentence it's clear that intended this as a

public post. The links in my last post were for information on

specific pages that I found credible. Any author's secondary agenda

is an important consideration, and so I appreciate 's comment

regarding Chet Day.

The rest of my comments follow her post:

-=-=-=

Marjorie has posted a link to an article on Chet Day's web site re

the Hallelujah Diet. I am personally very wary of anything Chet Day

posts about the Hallelujah Diet (a vegan 85% raw food diet). He is a

former employee of the Hallelujah organization and used to promote

the diet. Now, after leaving the organization he has become anti-

vegetarian and a marketer for vitamin pills. He is basically a

marketer and reporter.

Anyway, here is another link to an article written by Dr. Shaw:

http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html. Here are a few

pertinent points she makes:

" B12 deficiency may be brought upon by antibiotics (also contained in

milk), alcohol, smoking and stress (alcohol damages the liver, so

drinkers need more B12, smoking (and all high temp cooked food is

smoky) also raises B12 needs). "

" The author does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is more

widespread in vegans or vegetarians - this is probably just another

marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies `showing vegans

deficient' have to be carefully studies themselves - many of them do

not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to meat

and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more

likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency - this has been known since

1959!!(1) "

" Having said this, we must bear in mind that many vegetarians and

vegans still take antibiotics or consume antibiotic-containing foods

such as onions, garlic, strong radishes and other foods rich in

mustard oil, which are lethal to intestinal flora. The trouble is

that once we have damaged our intestinal flora, it is difficult to

correct without proper and knowledgeable healthcare and dietary

advice. It is of far greater importance to correct intestinal flora

problems than to rely on so-called supplements. People who have a

physical problem because they think they are not getting enough

vitamin B12, are in fact often not assimilating their foods properly

because of poor digestion. When digestion is straightened out, B12

can be utilized and produced once again. "

-=-=-==

Unfortunately, Dr. Shaw's article is full of so many obvious

misstatements. I want to give every viewpoint attention, but some are

just too factually incorrect. The comments I made in the other post

and to are all appropriate here. , Dr. Shaw's

understanding is so loose, she confuses a vitamin with the bacteria

that synthesizes it.

The problem with B12 deficiency is usually not intake, since it's

easy to meet the daily requirement (aside from full vegetarians, as

we've been discussing). The problem with B12 is that it requires

three things to happen for proper absorption: (1) the ability to

separate the B12 from the food itself -- apparently that's a tough

digestion, esp as one ages; (2) an acidic environment in the stomach

(low acid output is very common, especially in those over 50) and (3)

a co-factor for B12 absorption, that is unavailable in a condition

called pernicious anemia. That's why supplementation or fortified

foods are recommended, not because there's some plot by the vitamin

industry in cahoots with the medical establishment -- strange

bedfellows to begin with. <g>

I fully accept the health benefits of vegetarians/vegans and realize

that it's not a critical weakness that the diet doesn't supply every

human need; there's nothing wrong with having to supplement a diet. I

appreciate the sensitivity of some vegetarians/vegans who want their

diet to be completely natural and complete onto itself. But if that's

not the case, then what gets served by denying or " distorting the

truth to what they want to hear " (to grab a quote out of context from

one of my favorite singer-songwriters, Phil Ochs <g>)? But I'm not

aware that the majority of vegetarians or vegans overplay their hand

as does Dr. Shaw, they don't insist their diet is complete against

all evidence to the contrary, and accuse those who refuse to accept

that reality as profiteering.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

Marjorie, thanks for posting my note. I even double checked that I

had it addressed to the the whole group, and still it went just to

you....this note again is posted to the whole group, so I'll be

curious where it ends up.

Anyway, about your comments on the article by Shaw....I am

confused by them. Did you read the article, or just the few points I

cut & pasted? No where does Dr. Shaw state the errors you have

included (at least not that I can see, and I just re-read the

article). She doesn't seem to me that she " confuses a vitamin with

the bacteria that synthesizes it " . She states: " Vitamin B12 is a

microbe - a bacteria - it is produced by microorganisms " . I find it a

well written article, addressed to the general public, that cautions

people on what can cause B12 deficiencies and to see a health

professional to get levels tested for. I can't see anywhere that she

is against supplementation.

As a person who usually eats vegan, I should probably get my B12

levels checked.

As always, nice talking to you.

> From the first sentence it's clear that intended this as a

> public post. The links in my last post were for information on

> specific pages that I found credible. Any author's secondary agenda

> is an important consideration, and so I appreciate 's

comment

> regarding Chet Day.

>

> The rest of my comments follow her post:

>

> -=-=-=

>

> Marjorie has posted a link to an article on Chet Day's web site re

> the Hallelujah Diet. I am personally very wary of anything Chet

Day

> posts about the Hallelujah Diet (a vegan 85% raw food diet). He is

a

> former employee of the Hallelujah organization and used to promote

> the diet. Now, after leaving the organization he has become anti-

> vegetarian and a marketer for vitamin pills. He is basically a

> marketer and reporter.

>

> Anyway, here is another link to an article written by Dr.

Shaw:

> http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html. Here are a few

> pertinent points she makes:

>

> " B12 deficiency may be brought upon by antibiotics (also contained

in

> milk), alcohol, smoking and stress (alcohol damages the liver, so

> drinkers need more B12, smoking (and all high temp cooked food is

> smoky) also raises B12 needs). "

>

> " The author does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is more

> widespread in vegans or vegetarians - this is probably just another

> marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies `showing vegans

> deficient' have to be carefully studies themselves - many of them

do

> not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to meat

> and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more

> likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency - this has been known since

> 1959!!(1) "

>

> " Having said this, we must bear in mind that many vegetarians and

> vegans still take antibiotics or consume antibiotic-containing

foods

> such as onions, garlic, strong radishes and other foods rich in

> mustard oil, which are lethal to intestinal flora. The trouble is

> that once we have damaged our intestinal flora, it is difficult to

> correct without proper and knowledgeable healthcare and dietary

> advice. It is of far greater importance to correct intestinal

flora

> problems than to rely on so-called supplements. People who have a

> physical problem because they think they are not getting enough

> vitamin B12, are in fact often not assimilating their foods

properly

> because of poor digestion. When digestion is straightened out, B12

> can be utilized and produced once again. "

>

>

>

> -=-=-==

>

> Unfortunately, Dr. Shaw's article is full of so many obvious

> misstatements. I want to give every viewpoint attention, but some

are

> just too factually incorrect. The comments I made in the other post

> and to are all appropriate here. , Dr. Shaw's

> understanding is so loose, she confuses a vitamin with the bacteria

> that synthesizes it.

>

> The problem with B12 deficiency is usually not intake, since it's

> easy to meet the daily requirement (aside from full vegetarians, as

> we've been discussing). The problem with B12 is that it requires

> three things to happen for proper absorption: (1) the ability to

> separate the B12 from the food itself -- apparently that's a tough

> digestion, esp as one ages; (2) an acidic environment in the

stomach

> (low acid output is very common, especially in those over 50) and

(3)

> a co-factor for B12 absorption, that is unavailable in a condition

> called pernicious anemia. That's why supplementation or fortified

> foods are recommended, not because there's some plot by the vitamin

> industry in cahoots with the medical establishment -- strange

> bedfellows to begin with. <g>

>

> I fully accept the health benefits of vegetarians/vegans and

realize

> that it's not a critical weakness that the diet doesn't supply

every

> human need; there's nothing wrong with having to supplement a diet.

I

> appreciate the sensitivity of some vegetarians/vegans who want

their

> diet to be completely natural and complete onto itself. But if

that's

> not the case, then what gets served by denying or " distorting the

> truth to what they want to hear " (to grab a quote out of context

from

> one of my favorite singer-songwriters, Phil Ochs <g>)? But I'm not

> aware that the majority of vegetarians or vegans overplay their

hand

> as does Dr. Shaw, they don't insist their diet is complete against

> all evidence to the contrary, and accuse those who refuse to accept

> that reality as profiteering.

>

> Marjorie

>

> Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

, I read both your post and the full article that was linked

to your article.

The confusion is exactly in the sentence you reproduced, and also

came across in your earlier post where you called B12 a bacteria;

from this article I can understand why you thought so. The very

sentence you quoted is confusing to me: " Vitamin B12 is a microbe - a

bacteria - it is produced by microorganisms " . B12 is not a microbe.

Bacteria is only one example of microbes or microorganisms, and it

doesn't sound like she understands the difference among any of these

terms.

Her comments about B12 are half-truths and exaggerations, but it

sounds like her real agenda comes further down in the article, where

she quotes another person saying, " ...The truth is that whatever

nutrients the body needs will be contained in its natural foods (for

human beings, raw plant foods). Mother Nature knows how to provide

for her own. Why would it be that we are created in such a way as to

make us a natural plant-eater and hey presto, there is no vitamin B12

provided for us by plants? If you can't get it from raw fruits,

vegetables, nuts, seeds or sprouts then WE DON'T NEED IT!...If you do

develop a B12 deficiency, certain urgent dietary adjustments may need

to be made, and there is a possibility that fasting is in order. In

any case, on switching to a healthier diet, be it vegetarian, vegan

or raw food (for optimum health), we should go back to nature as much

as possible and pay little attention to germ phobics who advise us to

scrub our vegetables and fruits. Buy organic and eat home-grown or

wild foods and do not clean them too scrupulously! Just as nature

intended!. "

If that's not enough to suggest to you that she's against

supplementation, Dr. Shaw comes right out earlier in the article and

says, " Synthetic vitamins and minerals are inorganic and are

therefore unusable by the human body. In the manufacture of `food

supplements', chemically pure substances must be used for the most

part. If the scientists used naturally derived nutrients, their

pills would be too large for us to swallow. Additionally, a

chemical `carrier' is added to make the products acceptable to the

palate of the consumer and to bring their product up to an acceptable

standard. These chemical carriers, as with all chemicals, are toxic

to the human organism. They result in stimulation of the body and an

illusionary cure. "

To me, this is belief based on misunderstanding about core biology

and chemistry. Everything is made of chemicals -- raw plants are made

of chemicals, the human body is made of chemicals. The only

difference between inorganic and organic is the presence of a carbon

molecule, which has nothing to do with whether a chemical is usable

by the human body (as her first sentence asserts). The last two

sentences have no reality for me.

So if we accept the logic above, then Mother Nature only intended us

to live only into our mid-twenties? Mother Nature intended many of

our young to die of communicable diseases by eating feces-

contaminated soil in exchange for adequate B12 intake?

Nice talking with you too, as always.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> > From the first sentence it's clear that intended this as

a

> > public post. The links in my last post were for information on

> > specific pages that I found credible. Any author's secondary

agenda

> > is an important consideration, and so I appreciate 's

> comment

> > regarding Chet Day.

> >

> > The rest of my comments follow her post:

> >

> > -=-=-=

> >

> > Marjorie has posted a link to an article on Chet Day's web site

re

> > the Hallelujah Diet. I am personally very wary of anything Chet

> Day

> > posts about the Hallelujah Diet (a vegan 85% raw food diet). He

is

> a

> > former employee of the Hallelujah organization and used to

promote

> > the diet. Now, after leaving the organization he has become anti-

> > vegetarian and a marketer for vitamin pills. He is basically a

> > marketer and reporter.

> >

> > Anyway, here is another link to an article written by Dr.

> Shaw:

> > http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html. Here are a

few

> > pertinent points she makes:

> >

> > " B12 deficiency may be brought upon by antibiotics (also

contained

> in

> > milk), alcohol, smoking and stress (alcohol damages the liver, so

> > drinkers need more B12, smoking (and all high temp cooked food is

> > smoky) also raises B12 needs). "

> >

> > " The author does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is

more

> > widespread in vegans or vegetarians - this is probably just

another

> > marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies `showing vegans

> > deficient' have to be carefully studies themselves - many of them

> do

> > not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to

meat

> > and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more

> > likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency - this has been known

since

> > 1959!!(1) "

> >

> > " Having said this, we must bear in mind that many vegetarians and

> > vegans still take antibiotics or consume antibiotic-containing

> foods

> > such as onions, garlic, strong radishes and other foods rich in

> > mustard oil, which are lethal to intestinal flora. The trouble

is

> > that once we have damaged our intestinal flora, it is difficult

to

> > correct without proper and knowledgeable healthcare and dietary

> > advice. It is of far greater importance to correct intestinal

> flora

> > problems than to rely on so-called supplements. People who have a

> > physical problem because they think they are not getting enough

> > vitamin B12, are in fact often not assimilating their foods

> properly

> > because of poor digestion. When digestion is straightened out,

B12

> > can be utilized and produced once again. "

> >

> >

> >

> > -=-=-==

> >

> > Unfortunately, Dr. Shaw's article is full of so many obvious

> > misstatements. I want to give every viewpoint attention, but some

> are

> > just too factually incorrect. The comments I made in the other

post

> > and to are all appropriate here. , Dr. Shaw's

> > understanding is so loose, she confuses a vitamin with the

bacteria

> > that synthesizes it.

> >

> > The problem with B12 deficiency is usually not intake, since it's

> > easy to meet the daily requirement (aside from full vegetarians,

as

> > we've been discussing). The problem with B12 is that it requires

> > three things to happen for proper absorption: (1) the ability to

> > separate the B12 from the food itself -- apparently that's a

tough

> > digestion, esp as one ages; (2) an acidic environment in the

> stomach

> > (low acid output is very common, especially in those over 50) and

> (3)

> > a co-factor for B12 absorption, that is unavailable in a

condition

> > called pernicious anemia. That's why supplementation or fortified

> > foods are recommended, not because there's some plot by the

vitamin

> > industry in cahoots with the medical establishment -- strange

> > bedfellows to begin with. <g>

> >

> > I fully accept the health benefits of vegetarians/vegans and

> realize

> > that it's not a critical weakness that the diet doesn't supply

> every

> > human need; there's nothing wrong with having to supplement a

diet.

> I

> > appreciate the sensitivity of some vegetarians/vegans who want

> their

> > diet to be completely natural and complete onto itself. But if

> that's

> > not the case, then what gets served by denying or " distorting the

> > truth to what they want to hear " (to grab a quote out of context

> from

> > one of my favorite singer-songwriters, Phil Ochs <g>)? But I'm

not

> > aware that the majority of vegetarians or vegans overplay their

> hand

> > as does Dr. Shaw, they don't insist their diet is complete

against

> > all evidence to the contrary, and accuse those who refuse to

accept

> > that reality as profiteering.

> >

> > Marjorie

> >

> > Marjorie Lazoff, MD

[Guest guest]

Hi Marjorie,

To be honest, I didn't understand all the points you made in

critiqing the last article I posted re B12 by Dr. Shaw. The

reason I found that article useful is it was the first time I read

that antibiotic use can affect B12 levels (and what cean has not

taken antibiotics). Anyway, here is another article (the last

article I'll post on B12). I can see right off you will see errors

with this article, but it makes the issue more understandable to the

average person. It is written by a well respected Doctor from

the " raw food world " .

****

A common question regarding the living food diet is the issue of

vitamin B12. This concern arises because we have been told that this

vitamin is only found in animal products. Old myths die hard and

unfortunately, this one has been passed around for so long, the

concern of vitamin B12 deficiency is almost synonymous with

vegetarianism. It ranks right up there with " Where do you get your

protein? And where do you get your calcium? " .

Vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin, is a water soluble vitamin and

functions as a coenzyme in metabolism. It's necessary for the growth

of all cells, for DNA synthesis and for the absorption of other

nutrients through the intestines. It is especially important for the

nervous system. A vitamin B12 deficiency causes macrocytic anemia,

and/or lesions of the nervous system.

The only biologically useful type of B12 is made by bacteria. B12

from sea vegetables and other " green " foods (dulse, nori, blue-green

algae, etc.) are not physiologically useful to the body. The B12 from

these sources are called B12 analogs, meaning that the molecules are

very similar to the B12 that we really need, but not exactly the

same. What happens is that the cells of the body will allow these

imposters to latch onto their surface, but then nothing actually

happens because they are not shaped quite right. So we not only do

not get the B12 we need, but now these imposters are blocking the

very doorway where the real B12 can get in!

Fortunately, we only need a tiny amount of B12, and the body stores

it for quite a while, so it takes several years for deficiencies to

develop. In a healthy intestine and colon, our bodies would actually

make B12 from healthy bacteria. The problem is that nearly all of the

B12 is made in the large intestine (colon), with very little, if any,

made in our small intestine. And B12 is only absorbed in the small

intestine, as far as we currently know. So this is another

complication.

You may ask, " So how did people get enough B12 way back when? "

Vitamin B12 is normally found in the soil. Micro-organisms usually

cling to the fruits and vegetables and make their way onto roots and

into the plants before harvest. The B12 present in meat is due to the

grass and other plant matter the animal ate, not something inherent

to the animal itself.

Humans originally picked and ate their food directly from nature.

When this was so, they were also getting bits of dirt and soil and

bugs and things along with their food. These contaminants carried

plenty of B12-producing bacteria along with them.

Since we only need a tiny, tiny amount of B12 each day (1 microgram),

and since we can store lots of it in our liver, we easily got all we

needed just from natural foods and the " contaminants " that were

present with them.

It should also be noted that vitamin B12 breaks down very quickly

when heated, as do most nutrients, another reason to consume your

food raw.

There are other considerations. The fact is, not only a few vegans,

but a large percentage of the meat-eating population have low levels

of B12, or are actually deficient in it. The concern should not be

whether the diet provides B12, but is the body able to absorb the

nutrients that you consume?

The raw food/healthy living community is pretty split on this issue

of B12 supplementation. Some say supplementation is not needed,

others say one should supplement. Studies seem to say that most

people will do just fine and there's no need to worry about it.

However, if you have a history of intestinal problems or blood

disorders, such as a tendency toward anemia, you may want to consider

supplementing as " insurance. " If you choose to use supplements, look

closely at the actual B12 ingredients. The one you want is called

methylcobalamin. This type is absorbed much better than the commonly

used cyanocobalamin.

By far the first and best thing you can do if you are concerned about

vitamin B12, or any other vitamin deficiency, is to eat a primarily

raw diet consisting of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds. When

we consume food in accordance with the laws of nature, we remove the

obstructions that keep our bodies from functioning optimally. Our

bodies do not have to suffer disease and illness, nor do we need to

worry that we are not eating the proper nutrients, nature has taken

care of that for us.

Dr Sniadach, DC

President

Transformation Institute

[Guest guest]

What errors did you see in Dr. Snaidich's article, ? I don't

see any -- in fact, he's saying what I've been saying, except for the

last two paragraphs (which are his opinion, and I don't feel

correlates well with the information above it). I think he's skewed

to interpretations such as " Studies seem to say that most people will

do just fine and there's no need to worry about it... " but his

understanding of B12 in the beginning and middle of the article is

similiar to mine.

It is very interesting to me that you don't see the difference in

quality between Dr. Shaw's and Dr. Snaidich's articles. Perhaps

their raw food recommendations and their " well respected dr title " is

all that is important to you. I hope that's not true.

I'm sorry that you didn't understand all my points in my last post.

Perhaps the reason was technical -- I interspersed requotes from the

article, which were in paragraphs identified with quotation marks,

with my comments. If it's the content of my reply that confused you,

don't worry about it -- I'm honestly not looking to change your

belief system. For me, raw food is certainly healthy, but taking it

to the extreme doesn't work for me, personally or professionally.

No, antibiotics do not affect B12 levels. Antibiotics can kill off

bacterial flora, but whatever B12 those bacterial would make would

have been excreted out anyway because it is made in the large

intestines, which is below the small intestines (the site of B12

absorption, which requires a co-factor from the stomach anyway for

absorption). Dr. Shaw is wrong in this, but Dr. Schnaidich is correct

when he says, " The problem is that nearly all of the B12 is made in

the large intestine (colon), with very little, if any, made in our

small intestine. And B12 is only absorbed in the small intestine, as

far as we currently know. So this is another complication [to meeting

B12 needs]. "

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

>

> Hi Marjorie,

>

> To be honest, I didn't understand all the points you made in

> critiqing the last article I posted re B12 by Dr. Shaw. The

> reason I found that article useful is it was the first time I read

> that antibiotic use can affect B12 levels (and what cean has

not

> taken antibiotics). Anyway, here is another article (the last

> article I'll post on B12). I can see right off you will see errors

> with this article, but it makes the issue more understandable to

the

> average person. It is written by a well respected Doctor from

> the " raw food world " .

>

> ****

> A common question regarding the living food diet is the issue of

> vitamin B12. This concern arises because we have been told that

this

> vitamin is only found in animal products. Old myths die hard and

> unfortunately, this one has been passed around for so long, the

> concern of vitamin B12 deficiency is almost synonymous with

> vegetarianism. It ranks right up there with " Where do you get your

> protein? And where do you get your calcium? " .

>

> Vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin, is a water soluble vitamin

and

> functions as a coenzyme in metabolism. It's necessary for the

growth

> of all cells, for DNA synthesis and for the absorption of other

> nutrients through the intestines. It is especially important for

the

> nervous system. A vitamin B12 deficiency causes macrocytic anemia,

> and/or lesions of the nervous system.

> The only biologically useful type of B12 is made by bacteria. B12

> from sea vegetables and other " green " foods (dulse, nori, blue-

green

> algae, etc.) are not physiologically useful to the body. The B12

from

> these sources are called B12 analogs, meaning that the molecules

are

> very similar to the B12 that we really need, but not exactly the

> same. What happens is that the cells of the body will allow these

> imposters to latch onto their surface, but then nothing actually

> happens because they are not shaped quite right. So we not only do

> not get the B12 we need, but now these imposters are blocking the

> very doorway where the real B12 can get in!

>

> Fortunately, we only need a tiny amount of B12, and the body stores

> it for quite a while, so it takes several years for deficiencies to

> develop. In a healthy intestine and colon, our bodies would

actually

> make B12 from healthy bacteria. The problem is that nearly all of

the

> B12 is made in the large intestine (colon), with very little, if

any,

> made in our small intestine. And B12 is only absorbed in the small

> intestine, as far as we currently know. So this is another

> complication.

> You may ask, " So how did people get enough B12 way back when? "

> Vitamin B12 is normally found in the soil. Micro-organisms usually

> cling to the fruits and vegetables and make their way onto roots

and

> into the plants before harvest. The B12 present in meat is due to

the

> grass and other plant matter the animal ate, not something inherent

> to the animal itself.

> Humans originally picked and ate their food directly from nature.

> When this was so, they were also getting bits of dirt and soil and

> bugs and things along with their food. These contaminants carried

> plenty of B12-producing bacteria along with them.

>

> Since we only need a tiny, tiny amount of B12 each day (1

microgram),

> and since we can store lots of it in our liver, we easily got all

we

> needed just from natural foods and the " contaminants " that were

> present with them.

>

> It should also be noted that vitamin B12 breaks down very quickly

> when heated, as do most nutrients, another reason to consume your

> food raw.

> There are other considerations. The fact is, not only a few vegans,

> but a large percentage of the meat-eating population have low

levels

> of B12, or are actually deficient in it. The concern should not be

> whether the diet provides B12, but is the body able to absorb the

> nutrients that you consume?

> The raw food/healthy living community is pretty split on this issue

> of B12 supplementation. Some say supplementation is not needed,

> others say one should supplement. Studies seem to say that most

> people will do just fine and there's no need to worry about it.

> However, if you have a history of intestinal problems or blood

> disorders, such as a tendency toward anemia, you may want to

consider

> supplementing as " insurance. " If you choose to use supplements,

look

> closely at the actual B12 ingredients. The one you want is called

> methylcobalamin. This type is absorbed much better than the

commonly

> used cyanocobalamin.

>

> By far the first and best thing you can do if you are concerned

about

> vitamin B12, or any other vitamin deficiency, is to eat a primarily

> raw diet consisting of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds. When

> we consume food in accordance with the laws of nature, we remove

the

> obstructions that keep our bodies from functioning optimally. Our

> bodies do not have to suffer disease and illness, nor do we need to

> worry that we are not eating the proper nutrients, nature has taken

> care of that for us.

>

> Dr Sniadach, DC

> President

> Transformation Institute

[Guest guest]

Marjorie, once again I sent a reply only to you in error...so I

thought I would reply to the group.

I thought you would take issue with the following paragraph about

getting B12 from unwashed vegetables. When I said the same thing I

got a long lecture on the B12 coming from human fecal matter (not at

all what I was talking about)....the below article says basically the

same thing and this time you take no issue.

>Vitamin B12 is normally found in the soil. Micro-organisms usually

> cling to the fruits and vegetables and make their way onto roots

>and

> into the plants before harvest. The B12 present in meat is due to

>the

> grass and other plant matter the animal ate, not something inherent

> to the animal itself.

> Humans originally picked and ate their food directly from nature.

> When this was so, they were also getting bits of dirt and soil and

> bugs and things along with their food. These contaminants carried

> plenty of B12-producing bacteria along with them.

And by the way, no where did I say I didn't see any difference in the

quality of the 2 articles I posted. The second article is a new

article, just recently available on the internet. I posted it the

day I read it. As well, I called Dr. Snaidich a well respected

doctor...another thing you take issue with?

> >

> > Hi Marjorie,

> >

> > To be honest, I didn't understand all the points you made in

> > critiqing the last article I posted re B12 by Dr. Shaw. The

> > reason I found that article useful is it was the first time I

read

> > that antibiotic use can affect B12 levels (and what cean has

> not

> > taken antibiotics). Anyway, here is another article (the last

> > article I'll post on B12). I can see right off you will see

errors

> > with this article, but it makes the issue more understandable to

> the

> > average person. It is written by a well respected Doctor from

> > the " raw food world " .

> >

> > ****

> > A common question regarding the living food diet is the issue of

> > vitamin B12. This concern arises because we have been told that

> this

> > vitamin is only found in animal products. Old myths die hard and

> > unfortunately, this one has been passed around for so long, the

> > concern of vitamin B12 deficiency is almost synonymous with

> > vegetarianism. It ranks right up there with " Where do you get

your

> > protein? And where do you get your calcium? " .

> >

> > Vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin, is a water soluble vitamin

> and

> > functions as a coenzyme in metabolism. It's necessary for the

> growth

> > of all cells, for DNA synthesis and for the absorption of other

> > nutrients through the intestines. It is especially important for

> the

> > nervous system. A vitamin B12 deficiency causes macrocytic

anemia,

> > and/or lesions of the nervous system.

> > The only biologically useful type of B12 is made by bacteria. B12

> > from sea vegetables and other " green " foods (dulse, nori, blue-

> green

> > algae, etc.) are not physiologically useful to the body. The B12

> from

> > these sources are called B12 analogs, meaning that the molecules

> are

> > very similar to the B12 that we really need, but not exactly the

> > same. What happens is that the cells of the body will allow these

> > imposters to latch onto their surface, but then nothing actually

> > happens because they are not shaped quite right. So we not only

do

> > not get the B12 we need, but now these imposters are blocking the

> > very doorway where the real B12 can get in!

> >

> > Fortunately, we only need a tiny amount of B12, and the body

stores

> > it for quite a while, so it takes several years for deficiencies

to

> > develop. In a healthy intestine and colon, our bodies would

> actually

> > make B12 from healthy bacteria. The problem is that nearly all of

> the

> > B12 is made in the large intestine (colon), with very little, if

> any,

> > made in our small intestine. And B12 is only absorbed in the

small

> > intestine, as far as we currently know. So this is another

> > complication.

> > You may ask, " So how did people get enough B12 way back when? "

> > Vitamin B12 is normally found in the soil. Micro-organisms

usually

> > cling to the fruits and vegetables and make their way onto roots

> and

> > into the plants before harvest. The B12 present in meat is due to

> the

> > grass and other plant matter the animal ate, not something

inherent

> > to the animal itself.

> > Humans originally picked and ate their food directly from nature.

> > When this was so, they were also getting bits of dirt and soil

and

> > bugs and things along with their food. These contaminants carried

> > plenty of B12-producing bacteria along with them.

> >

> > Since we only need a tiny, tiny amount of B12 each day (1

> microgram),

> > and since we can store lots of it in our liver, we easily got all

> we

> > needed just from natural foods and the " contaminants " that were

> > present with them.

> >

> > It should also be noted that vitamin B12 breaks down very quickly

> > when heated, as do most nutrients, another reason to consume your

> > food raw.

> > There are other considerations. The fact is, not only a few

vegans,

> > but a large percentage of the meat-eating population have low

> levels

> > of B12, or are actually deficient in it. The concern should not

be

> > whether the diet provides B12, but is the body able to absorb the

> > nutrients that you consume?

> > The raw food/healthy living community is pretty split on this

issue

> > of B12 supplementation. Some say supplementation is not needed,

> > others say one should supplement. Studies seem to say that most

> > people will do just fine and there's no need to worry about it.

> > However, if you have a history of intestinal problems or blood

> > disorders, such as a tendency toward anemia, you may want to

> consider

> > supplementing as " insurance. " If you choose to use supplements,

> look

> > closely at the actual B12 ingredients. The one you want is called

> > methylcobalamin. This type is absorbed much better than the

> commonly

> > used cyanocobalamin.

> >

> > By far the first and best thing you can do if you are concerned

> about

> > vitamin B12, or any other vitamin deficiency, is to eat a

primarily

> > raw diet consisting of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds.

When

> > we consume food in accordance with the laws of nature, we remove

> the

> > obstructions that keep our bodies from functioning optimally. Our

> > bodies do not have to suffer disease and illness, nor do we need

to

> > worry that we are not eating the proper nutrients, nature has

taken

> > care of that for us.

> >

> > Dr Sniadach, DC

> > President

> > Transformation Institute

[Guest guest]

, to explain how unwashed vegetables relate to fecal matter:

in developing countries where public health is not mainstream, the

soil in which vegetables are grown is contaminated with human and

animal fecal matter. The feces that contains the B12 becomes part of

the soil, and that's what covers the unwashed vegetables. It's a way

to ingest B12 and that's fine, but my concern is with everything else

in the fecal matter that covers the unwashed vegetables -- including

illness-producing viruses, bacteria, and toxins. One can't ingest

just the B12 from the soil covering the unwashed vegetables,

everything from the feces gets ingested as well.

Just to clarify a fine point: I'm talking about ingesting the B12

that was excreted as waste and is now part of the soil. Ingesting the

bacteria that can make B12 is not ingesting B12.

Here's a quote from the UK Vegetarian site to further explain the

above: " Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown

that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed

vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal

contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a

significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas

where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the

lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in

developing countries. "

My intent was never to " take issue " or " lecture " you. It's

discouraging to hear that's how my words are being read.

Have a good day.

Marjorie

Marjorie Lazoff, MD

> > >

> > > Hi Marjorie,

> > >

> > > To be honest, I didn't understand all the points you made in

> > > critiqing the last article I posted re B12 by Dr. Shaw.

The

> > > reason I found that article useful is it was the first time I

> read

> > > that antibiotic use can affect B12 levels (and what cean

has

> > not

> > > taken antibiotics). Anyway, here is another article (the last

> > > article I'll post on B12). I can see right off you will see

> errors

> > > with this article, but it makes the issue more understandable

to

> > the

> > > average person. It is written by a well respected Doctor from

> > > the " raw food world " .

> > >

> > > ****

> > > A common question regarding the living food diet is the issue

of

> > > vitamin B12. This concern arises because we have been told that

> > this

> > > vitamin is only found in animal products. Old myths die hard

and

> > > unfortunately, this one has been passed around for so long, the

> > > concern of vitamin B12 deficiency is almost synonymous with

> > > vegetarianism. It ranks right up there with " Where do you get

> your

> > > protein? And where do you get your calcium? " .

> > >

> > > Vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin, is a water soluble

vitamin

> > and

> > > functions as a coenzyme in metabolism. It's necessary for the

> > growth

> > > of all cells, for DNA synthesis and for the absorption of other

> > > nutrients through the intestines. It is especially important

for

> > the

> > > nervous system. A vitamin B12 deficiency causes macrocytic

> anemia,

> > > and/or lesions of the nervous system.

> > > The only biologically useful type of B12 is made by bacteria.

B12

> > > from sea vegetables and other " green " foods (dulse, nori, blue-

> > green

> > > algae, etc.) are not physiologically useful to the body. The

B12

> > from

> > > these sources are called B12 analogs, meaning that the

molecules

> > are

> > > very similar to the B12 that we really need, but not exactly

the

> > > same. What happens is that the cells of the body will allow

these

> > > imposters to latch onto their surface, but then nothing

actually

> > > happens because they are not shaped quite right. So we not only

> do

> > > not get the B12 we need, but now these imposters are blocking

the

> > > very doorway where the real B12 can get in!

> > >

> > > Fortunately, we only need a tiny amount of B12, and the body

> stores

> > > it for quite a while, so it takes several years for

deficiencies

> to

> > > develop. In a healthy intestine and colon, our bodies would

> > actually

> > > make B12 from healthy bacteria. The problem is that nearly all

of

> > the

> > > B12 is made in the large intestine (colon), with very little,

if

> > any,

> > > made in our small intestine. And B12 is only absorbed in the

> small

> > > intestine, as far as we currently know. So this is another

> > > complication.

> > > You may ask, " So how did people get enough B12 way back when? "

> > > Vitamin B12 is normally found in the soil. Micro-organisms

> usually

> > > cling to the fruits and vegetables and make their way onto

roots

> > and

> > > into the plants before harvest. The B12 present in meat is due

to

> > the

> > > grass and other plant matter the animal ate, not something

> inherent

> > > to the animal itself.

> > > Humans originally picked and ate their food directly from

nature.

> > > When this was so, they were also getting bits of dirt and soil

> and

> > > bugs and things along with their food. These contaminants

carried

> > > plenty of B12-producing bacteria along with them.

> > >

> > > Since we only need a tiny, tiny amount of B12 each day (1

> > microgram),

> > > and since we can store lots of it in our liver, we easily got

all

> > we

> > > needed just from natural foods and the " contaminants " that were

> > > present with them.

> > >

> > > It should also be noted that vitamin B12 breaks down very

quickly

> > > when heated, as do most nutrients, another reason to consume

your

> > > food raw.

> > > There are other considerations. The fact is, not only a few

> vegans,

> > > but a large percentage of the meat-eating population have low

> > levels

> > > of B12, or are actually deficient in it. The concern should not

> be

> > > whether the diet provides B12, but is the body able to absorb

the

> > > nutrients that you consume?

> > > The raw food/healthy living community is pretty split on this

> issue

> > > of B12 supplementation. Some say supplementation is not needed,

> > > others say one should supplement. Studies seem to say that most

> > > people will do just fine and there's no need to worry about it.

> > > However, if you have a history of intestinal problems or blood

> > > disorders, such as a tendency toward anemia, you may want to

> > consider

> > > supplementing as " insurance. " If you choose to use supplements,

> > look

> > > closely at the actual B12 ingredients. The one you want is

called

> > > methylcobalamin. This type is absorbed much better than the

> > commonly

> > > used cyanocobalamin.

> > >

> > > By far the first and best thing you can do if you are concerned

> > about

> > > vitamin B12, or any other vitamin deficiency, is to eat a

> primarily

> > > raw diet consisting of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds.

> When

> > > we consume food in accordance with the laws of nature, we

remove

> > the

> > > obstructions that keep our bodies from functioning optimally.

Our

> > > bodies do not have to suffer disease and illness, nor do we

need

> to

> > > worry that we are not eating the proper nutrients, nature has

> taken

> > > care of that for us.

> > >

> > > Dr Sniadach, DC

> > > President

> > > Transformation Institute

[Guest guest]

Majorie, I understood you the first time. Do you really think that

Dr. Sniadach was referring to human fecal matter? That is not what

he is saying (nor was it what I was saying). And by the way, human

fecal matter is being used in developed countries for fertilizer (for

instance in Ontario and in California) and apparently fecal matter

(I'm not sure if human or animal) is what some B12 supplementation is

processed from. I agree, very unpleasant.

> > > >

> > > > Hi Marjorie,

> > > >

> > > > To be honest, I didn't understand all the points you made in

> > > > critiqing the last article I posted re B12 by Dr. Shaw.

> The

> > > > reason I found that article useful is it was the first time I

> > read

> > > > that antibiotic use can affect B12 levels (and what cean

> has

> > > not

> > > > taken antibiotics). Anyway, here is another article (the

last

> > > > article I'll post on B12). I can see right off you will see

> > errors

> > > > with this article, but it makes the issue more understandable

> to

> > > the

> > > > average person. It is written by a well respected Doctor

from

> > > > the " raw food world " .

> > > >

> > > > ****

> > > > A common question regarding the living food diet is the issue

> of

> > > > vitamin B12. This concern arises because we have been told

that

> > > this

> > > > vitamin is only found in animal products. Old myths die hard

> and

> > > > unfortunately, this one has been passed around for so long,

the

> > > > concern of vitamin B12 deficiency is almost synonymous with

> > > > vegetarianism. It ranks right up there with " Where do you get

> > your

> > > > protein? And where do you get your calcium? " .

> > > >

> > > > Vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin, is a water soluble

> vitamin

> > > and

> > > > functions as a coenzyme in metabolism. It's necessary for the

> > > growth

> > > > of all cells, for DNA synthesis and for the absorption of

other

> > > > nutrients through the intestines. It is especially important

> for

> > > the

> > > > nervous system. A vitamin B12 deficiency causes macrocytic

> > anemia,

> > > > and/or lesions of the nervous system.

> > > > The only biologically useful type of B12 is made by bacteria.

> B12

> > > > from sea vegetables and other " green " foods (dulse, nori,

blue-

> > > green

> > > > algae, etc.) are not physiologically useful to the body. The

> B12

> > > from

> > > > these sources are called B12 analogs, meaning that the

> molecules

> > > are

> > > > very similar to the B12 that we really need, but not exactly

> the

> > > > same. What happens is that the cells of the body will allow

> these

> > > > imposters to latch onto their surface, but then nothing

> actually

> > > > happens because they are not shaped quite right. So we not

only

> > do

> > > > not get the B12 we need, but now these imposters are blocking

> the

> > > > very doorway where the real B12 can get in!

> > > >

> > > > Fortunately, we only need a tiny amount of B12, and the body

> > stores

> > > > it for quite a while, so it takes several years for

> deficiencies

> > to

> > > > develop. In a healthy intestine and colon, our bodies would

> > > actually

> > > > make B12 from healthy bacteria. The problem is that nearly

all

> of

> > > the

> > > > B12 is made in the large intestine (colon), with very little,

> if

> > > any,

> > > > made in our small intestine. And B12 is only absorbed in the

> > small

> > > > intestine, as far as we currently know. So this is another

> > > > complication.

> > > > You may ask, " So how did people get enough B12 way back

when? "

> > > > Vitamin B12 is normally found in the soil. Micro-organisms

> > usually

> > > > cling to the fruits and vegetables and make their way onto

> roots

> > > and

> > > > into the plants before harvest. The B12 present in meat is

due

> to

> > > the

> > > > grass and other plant matter the animal ate, not something

> > inherent

> > > > to the animal itself.

> > > > Humans originally picked and ate their food directly from

> nature.

> > > > When this was so, they were also getting bits of dirt and

soil

> > and

> > > > bugs and things along with their food. These contaminants

> carried

> > > > plenty of B12-producing bacteria along with them.

> > > >

> > > > Since we only need a tiny, tiny amount of B12 each day (1

> > > microgram),

> > > > and since we can store lots of it in our liver, we easily got

> all

> > > we

> > > > needed just from natural foods and the " contaminants " that

were

> > > > present with them.

> > > >

> > > > It should also be noted that vitamin B12 breaks down very

> quickly

> > > > when heated, as do most nutrients, another reason to consume

> your

> > > > food raw.

> > > > There are other considerations. The fact is, not only a few

> > vegans,

> > > > but a large percentage of the meat-eating population have low

> > > levels

> > > > of B12, or are actually deficient in it. The concern should

not

> > be

> > > > whether the diet provides B12, but is the body able to absorb

> the

> > > > nutrients that you consume?

> > > > The raw food/healthy living community is pretty split on this

> > issue

> > > > of B12 supplementation. Some say supplementation is not

needed,

> > > > others say one should supplement. Studies seem to say that

most

> > > > people will do just fine and there's no need to worry about

it.

> > > > However, if you have a history of intestinal problems or

blood

> > > > disorders, such as a tendency toward anemia, you may want to

> > > consider

> > > > supplementing as " insurance. " If you choose to use

supplements,

> > > look

> > > > closely at the actual B12 ingredients. The one you want is

> called

> > > > methylcobalamin. This type is absorbed much better than the

> > > commonly

> > > > used cyanocobalamin.

> > > >

> > > > By far the first and best thing you can do if you are

concerned

> > > about

> > > > vitamin B12, or any other vitamin deficiency, is to eat a

> > primarily

> > > > raw diet consisting of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and

seeds.

> > When

> > > > we consume food in accordance with the laws of nature, we

> remove

> > > the

> > > > obstructions that keep our bodies from functioning optimally.

> Our

> > > > bodies do not have to suffer disease and illness, nor do we

> need

> > to

> > > > worry that we are not eating the proper nutrients, nature has

> > taken

> > > > care of that for us.

> > > >

> > > > Dr Sniadach, DC

> > > > President

> > > > Transformation Institute

[Guest guest]

Marjorie, I understood you the first time. Do you really think that

Dr. Snaidach is referring to human fecal matter? That is not what he

is referring to (nor what I was referring to). I get that

saying " vitamin B12 " and saying " the bacteria that produces vitamin

B12 " should not be used inter-changeably. Believe me, I will never

make that mistake again! By the way, developed countries are using

human fecal matter as fertilizer (for instance in Ontario and

California) and I understand that some B12 supplements are processed

from fecal matter. Both very unpleasant thoughts.

> > > >

> > > > Hi Marjorie,

> > > >

> > > > To be honest, I didn't understand all the points you made in

> > > > critiqing the last article I posted re B12 by Dr. Shaw.

> The

> > > > reason I found that article useful is it was the first time I

> > read

> > > > that antibiotic use can affect B12 levels (and what cean

> has

> > > not

> > > > taken antibiotics). Anyway, here is another article (the

last

> > > > article I'll post on B12). I can see right off you will see

> > errors

> > > > with this article, but it makes the issue more understandable

> to

> > > the

> > > > average person. It is written by a well respected Doctor

from

> > > > the " raw food world " .

> > > >

> > > > ****

> > > > A common question regarding the living food diet is the issue

> of

> > > > vitamin B12. This concern arises because we have been told

that

> > > this

> > > > vitamin is only found in animal products. Old myths die hard

> and

> > > > unfortunately, this one has been passed around for so long,

the

> > > > concern of vitamin B12 deficiency is almost synonymous with

> > > > vegetarianism. It ranks right up there with " Where do you get

> > your

> > > > protein? And where do you get your calcium? " .

> > > >

> > > > Vitamin B12, also known as cobalamin, is a water soluble

> vitamin

> > > and

> > > > functions as a coenzyme in metabolism. It's necessary for the

> > > growth

> > > > of all cells, for DNA synthesis and for the absorption of

other

> > > > nutrients through the intestines. It is especially important

> for

> > > the

> > > > nervous system. A vitamin B12 deficiency causes macrocytic

> > anemia,

> > > > and/or lesions of the nervous system.

> > > > The only biologically useful type of B12 is made by bacteria.

> B12

> > > > from sea vegetables and other " green " foods (dulse, nori,

blue-

> > > green

> > > > algae, etc.) are not physiologically useful to the body. The

> B12

> > > from

> > > > these sources are called B12 analogs, meaning that the

> molecules

> > > are

> > > > very similar to the B12 that we really need, but not exactly

> the

> > > > same. What happens is that the cells of the body will allow

> these

> > > > imposters to latch onto their surface, but then nothing

> actually

> > > > happens because they are not shaped quite right. So we not

only

> > do

> > > > not get the B12 we need, but now these imposters are blocking

> the

> > > > very doorway where the real B12 can get in!

> > > >

> > > > Fortunately, we only need a tiny amount of B12, and the body

> > stores

> > > > it for quite a while, so it takes several years for

> deficiencies

> > to

> > > > develop. In a healthy intestine and colon, our bodies would

> > > actually

> > > > make B12 from healthy bacteria. The problem is that nearly

all

> of

> > > the

> > > > B12 is made in the large intestine (colon), with very little,

> if

> > > any,

> > > > made in our small intestine. And B12 is only absorbed in the

> > small

> > > > intestine, as far as we currently know. So this is another

> > > > complication.

> > > > You may ask, " So how did people get enough B12 way back

when? "

> > > > Vitamin B12 is normally found in the soil. Micro-organisms

> > usually

> > > > cling to the fruits and vegetables and make their way onto

> roots

> > > and

> > > > into the plants before harvest. The B12 present in meat is

due

> to

> > > the

> > > > grass and other plant matter the animal ate, not something

> > inherent

> > > > to the animal itself.

> > > > Humans originally picked and ate their food directly from

> nature.

> > > > When this was so, they were also getting bits of dirt and

soil

> > and

> > > > bugs and things along with their food. These contaminants

> carried

> > > > plenty of B12-producing bacteria along with them.

> > > >

> > > > Since we only need a tiny, tiny amount of B12 each day (1

> > > microgram),

> > > > and since we can store lots of it in our liver, we easily got

> all

> > > we

> > > > needed just from natural foods and the " contaminants " that

were

> > > > present with them.

> > > >

> > > > It should also be noted that vitamin B12 breaks down very

> quickly

> > > > when heated, as do most nutrients, another reason to consume

> your

> > > > food raw.

> > > > There are other considerations. The fact is, not only a few

> > vegans,

> > > > but a large percentage of the meat-eating population have low

> > > levels

> > > > of B12, or are actually deficient in it. The concern should

not

> > be

> > > > whether the diet provides B12, but is the body able to absorb

> the

> > > > nutrients that you consume?

> > > > The raw food/healthy living community is pretty split on this

> > issue

> > > > of B12 supplementation. Some say supplementation is not

needed,

> > > > others say one should supplement. Studies seem to say that

most

> > > > people will do just fine and there's no need to worry about

it.

> > > > However, if you have a history of intestinal problems or

blood

> > > > disorders, such as a tendency toward anemia, you may want to

> > > consider

> > > > supplementing as " insurance. " If you choose to use

supplements,

> > > look

> > > > closely at the actual B12 ingredients. The one you want is

> called

> > > > methylcobalamin. This type is absorbed much better than the

> > > commonly

> > > > used cyanocobalamin.

> > > >

> > > > By far the first and best thing you can do if you are

concerned

> > > about

> > > > vitamin B12, or any other vitamin deficiency, is to eat a

> > primarily

> > > > raw diet consisting of raw fruits, vegetables, nuts and

seeds.

> > When

> > > > we consume food in accordance with the laws of nature, we

> remove

> > > the

> > > > obstructions that keep our bodies from functioning optimally.

> Our

> > > > bodies do not have to suffer disease and illness, nor do we

> need

> > to

> > > > worry that we are not eating the proper nutrients, nature has

> > taken

> > > > care of that for us.

> > > >

> > > > Dr Sniadach, DC

> > > > President

> > > > Transformation Institute