Suzanne-bone broth questions, WAS Re: leaky gut question

[Guest guest]

Hey Suzanne!

What a coincidence, I just sat down at the computer with my bowl of bone soup!

Tom is in the same boat as myself and my children...we constantly run into

problems with vitamin/mineral supplementation and reactions. Anywho...

>>> your description

calls for breaking open the bones and scraping out the marrow. I'm

using duck leg bones, which are very small, and I haven't been able

to get much marrow from them, mostly from the caps and just inside

at the broad part of the bone. Is there any other way to get the

marrow from small poultry bones like this? <<<

That is exactly how I get the marrow out too....for really large bones, like

cow bones, a butcher or a meat processor can saw the bones in half for you, but

for all these small bones, I just break 'em where I can, and get the marrow out

at the joints.

>>>I have also included the duck fat and duck skin that I saved along

with the bones ... I'm assuming it is okay to include these in the

broth? I have taken out the large fat chunks, but wasn't planning to

skim the fat off - or should I? We are always looking for more

calories...<<<

This is perfectly fine. I do this too! But, I never include skin if the duck

was roasted, because the chemical composition of it has changed. I always

include the extra fat, unedible meat pieces, cartilage and skin from

boiled/steamed/low temperature baked animal. There is alot of collagen and other

nutrients from the extra parts. Even simmering down extra meat pieces, leaves

from beets, carrot tops, cauliflower, etc. whatever Tom can tolerate, are all

nutrient sources. While, with a soup like this, it may not be a good source of

vitamins, you are gently cooking it down, and the minerals will be fine.

Whatever you think of. Even dandelion leaves if from a clean place!

>>>Is it safe to cool the broth on the stove overnight, and resume

cooking the next day? I don't often have a long stretch I can cook

it all at once. This time, I cooked the bones a very long time on

two separate days (3-4 hours one day, cooled overnight, then 3-4

hours a second day, then cooled and cracked the bones open, then

strained and returned it back to the stove for 3-4 hours.<<<

This is fine, because if you leave the pot covered after you turn the heat

off, it won't cool immediately, and by the time you wake up, the bones can be

cracked...and you are going to return to a simmer. I cook my soup one day, then

turn it off overnight, wake up crack and scrape, then heat it up again and cook.

The more hours the better, you are extracting through simmering the broth, but 8

hours is still good. You have cooked it long enough, but longer is even better.

>>>I plan to cool and run it through the blender, then strain to catch

any bone slivers that might have gotten through. <<<

I am confused here, did you remove the bones? If you did, that's fine, but

after I crack all the bones, I throw them all back in the pot to cook again.

When the whole mess is done cooking, I strain out all the pieces, return the

broth to the pot, then add whatever I want to make a soup. Since Tom is on a

rotation diet, you can divide up the bone broth, freeze some of it, and make

different soups from it according to the foods he can have that day.

>>>How much would you give to a 3 year old who is not taking a mineral

supplement?<<<

As much as you can get him to eat. You can make different soups and use it as

a sauce with different foods, add what you can to it to make it seem different.

>>> He eats a range of meats and veggies (lamb, duck,

buffalo, elk, beef, broccoli, squash, asparagus, beets, spinach,

brussel sprouts, celeriac, several expeller-pressed oils). He has a

problem digesting his food - still lots of vegetable fibers evident

in his stool. I'm hoping this will be a way to supplement his

minerals rather than return to the Brainchild Ultrasensitive

Minerals that have xanthan gum and he's allergic to (it triggers his

eczema).<<<

If Tom has this much difficulty digesting his food, excema issue aside, you

can pretty much bet any money, any vitamin/mineral supplements you may give are

going to shoot right through him anyway. What kind of water does Tom drink? Make

sure to drink water with a ph of 7.2 or preferably higher, that will help a

little with trace minerals. Do any of Tom's doctors carry or recommend any ionic

trace mineral drops for water? This is a way to harden all water. Use hard water

with all cooking. I have yet to find a comphrehensive vitamin/mineral supplement

we can, on this end, all tolerate and furthermore, actually assimilate. We have

tried this and that, constantly. The best help we have had is with individual

vitamin/mineral supplementation. I do believe this soup is the best way to get

minerals absorbed into people like us. For every meal, we use a little vitamin c

powder, everytime we eat, just a few grains, as vitamin c helps the body to

absorb and utilize all minerals. I

know Tom is allergic to citrus, I don't know what is out there you can use, but

it would help if you can find something he tolerates.

>>>By the way, it smells wonderful!<<< Yes, I love the soup cooking, it makes

the house seem so homey, food is being made!

Summer

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

Suzanne, an easy way to get Tom to eat it , might be how I like to eat my

broths, I boil them down with all the good stuff in, until they gel when

cooled, sort of like a jello and then just eat with a spoon, this is the

best way for me to get things down when flaring (which I just started BADLY

tonight, so i will probably be joining your soup making )

>

>Reply-To: pecanbread

>To: pecanbread

>Subject: Re: Suzanne-bone broth questions, WAS Re: leaky gut

>question

>Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 17:20:22 -0700 (PDT)

>

>Hey Suzanne!

> What a coincidence, I just sat down at the computer with my bowl of bone

>soup! Tom is in the same boat as myself and my children...we constantly run

>into problems with vitamin/mineral supplementation and reactions. Anywho...

>

> >>> your description

>calls for breaking open the bones and scraping out the marrow. I'm

>using duck leg bones, which are very small, and I haven't been able

>to get much marrow from them, mostly from the caps and just inside

>at the broad part of the bone. Is there any other way to get the

>marrow from small poultry bones like this? <<<

>

> That is exactly how I get the marrow out too....for really large bones,

>like cow bones, a butcher or a meat processor can saw the bones in half for

>you, but for all these small bones, I just break 'em where I can, and get

>the marrow out at the joints.

>

> >>>I have also included the duck fat and duck skin that I saved along

>with the bones ... I'm assuming it is okay to include these in the

>broth? I have taken out the large fat chunks, but wasn't planning to

>skim the fat off - or should I? We are always looking for more

>calories...<<<

>

> This is perfectly fine. I do this too! But, I never include skin if the

>duck was roasted, because the chemical composition of it has changed. I

>always include the extra fat, unedible meat pieces, cartilage and skin from

>boiled/steamed/low temperature baked animal. There is alot of collagen and

>other nutrients from the extra parts. Even simmering down extra meat

>pieces, leaves from beets, carrot tops, cauliflower, etc. whatever Tom can

>tolerate, are all nutrient sources. While, with a soup like this, it may

>not be a good source of vitamins, you are gently cooking it down, and the

>minerals will be fine. Whatever you think of. Even dandelion leaves if from

>a clean place!

>

>

> >>>Is it safe to cool the broth on the stove overnight, and resume

>cooking the next day? I don't often have a long stretch I can cook

>it all at once. This time, I cooked the bones a very long time on

>two separate days (3-4 hours one day, cooled overnight, then 3-4

>hours a second day, then cooled and cracked the bones open, then

>strained and returned it back to the stove for 3-4 hours.<<<

>

> This is fine, because if you leave the pot covered after you turn the

>heat off, it won't cool immediately, and by the time you wake up, the bones

>can be cracked...and you are going to return to a simmer. I cook my soup

>one day, then turn it off overnight, wake up crack and scrape, then heat it

>up again and cook. The more hours the better, you are extracting through

>simmering the broth, but 8 hours is still good. You have cooked it long

>enough, but longer is even better.

>

> >>>I plan to cool and run it through the blender, then strain to catch

>any bone slivers that might have gotten through. <<<

>

> I am confused here, did you remove the bones? If you did, that's fine,

>but after I crack all the bones, I throw them all back in the pot to cook

>again. When the whole mess is done cooking, I strain out all the pieces,

>return the broth to the pot, then add whatever I want to make a soup. Since

>Tom is on a rotation diet, you can divide up the bone broth, freeze some of

>it, and make different soups from it according to the foods he can have

>that day.

>

> >>>How much would you give to a 3 year old who is not taking a mineral

>supplement?<<<

>

> As much as you can get him to eat. You can make different soups and use

>it as a sauce with different foods, add what you can to it to make it seem

>different.

>

> >>> He eats a range of meats and veggies (lamb, duck,

>buffalo, elk, beef, broccoli, squash, asparagus, beets, spinach,

>brussel sprouts, celeriac, several expeller-pressed oils). He has a

>problem digesting his food - still lots of vegetable fibers evident

>in his stool. I'm hoping this will be a way to supplement his

>minerals rather than return to the Brainchild Ultrasensitive

>Minerals that have xanthan gum and he's allergic to (it triggers his

>eczema).<<<

>

> If Tom has this much difficulty digesting his food, excema issue aside,

>you can pretty much bet any money, any vitamin/mineral supplements you may

>give are going to shoot right through him anyway. What kind of water does

>Tom drink? Make sure to drink water with a ph of 7.2 or preferably higher,

>that will help a little with trace minerals. Do any of Tom's doctors carry

>or recommend any ionic trace mineral drops for water? This is a way to

>harden all water. Use hard water with all cooking. I have yet to find a

>comphrehensive vitamin/mineral supplement we can, on this end, all tolerate

>and furthermore, actually assimilate. We have tried this and that,

>constantly. The best help we have had is with individual vitamin/mineral

>supplementation. I do believe this soup is the best way to get minerals

>absorbed into people like us. For every meal, we use a little vitamin c

>powder, everytime we eat, just a few grains, as vitamin c helps the body to

>absorb and utilize all minerals. I

> know Tom is allergic to citrus, I don't know what is out there you can

>use, but it would help if you can find something he tolerates.

>

>

>

> >>>By the way, it smells wonderful!<<< Yes, I love the soup cooking, it

>makes the house seem so homey, food is being made!

>

> Summer

>

>

>

>

>---------------------------------

>Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

>

>

[Guest guest]

See, when I am done cooking the bone broths, I then add saved broths to it. You

can drink the bone broth down strait, or use it as a base. I use it both ways.

Summer

Suzanne wrote:

That sounds yummy, I bet he would like it. He loves his " soup "

(pureed veggies made with regular broth). What I do now is to take

the drippings from his broiled meats along with a meat patty or two

and boil them for a flavorful broth, then add to some pureed veggies

for his afternoon snack.

I will just use a bone broth next time (whenever I can get enough

bones). Eating it isn't too practical for his other meals (too

messy for school, and too time-consuming to eat for breakfast). Of

course, it's also more time-consuming, and this one broth has just

added about an hour to my daily cooking, so until I get the routine

down a little bit, it won't be an everyday thing.

Suzanne

>

> Suzanne, an easy way to get Tom to eat it , might be how I like to

eat my

> broths, I boil them down with all the good stuff in, until they

gel when

> cooled, sort of like a jello and then just eat with a spoon, this

is the

> best way for me to get things down when flaring (which I just

started BADLY

> tonight, so i will probably be joining your soup making )

>

>

> >

> >Reply-To: pecanbread

> >To: pecanbread

> >Subject: Re: Suzanne-bone broth questions, WAS Re:

leaky gut

> >question

> >Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 17:20:22 -0700 (PDT)

> >

> >Hey Suzanne!

> > What a coincidence, I just sat down at the computer with my

bowl of bone

> >soup! Tom is in the same boat as myself and my children...we

constantly run

> >into problems with vitamin/mineral supplementation and reactions.

Anywho...

> >

> > >>> your description

> >calls for breaking open the bones and scraping out the marrow. I'm

> >using duck leg bones, which are very small, and I haven't been

able

> >to get much marrow from them, mostly from the caps and just inside

> >at the broad part of the bone. Is there any other way to get the

> >marrow from small poultry bones like this? <<<

> >

> > That is exactly how I get the marrow out too....for really

large bones,

> >like cow bones, a butcher or a meat processor can saw the bones

in half for

> >you, but for all these small bones, I just break 'em where I can,

and get

> >the marrow out at the joints.

> >

> > >>>I have also included the duck fat and duck skin that I saved

along

> >with the bones ... I'm assuming it is okay to include these in the

> >broth? I have taken out the large fat chunks, but wasn't planning

to

> >skim the fat off - or should I? We are always looking for more

> >calories...<<<

> >

> > This is perfectly fine. I do this too! But, I never include

skin if the

> >duck was roasted, because the chemical composition of it has

changed. I

> >always include the extra fat, unedible meat pieces, cartilage and

skin from

> >boiled/steamed/low temperature baked animal. There is alot of

collagen and

> >other nutrients from the extra parts. Even simmering down extra

meat

> >pieces, leaves from beets, carrot tops, cauliflower, etc.

whatever Tom can

> >tolerate, are all nutrient sources. While, with a soup like this,

it may

> >not be a good source of vitamins, you are gently cooking it down,

and the

> >minerals will be fine. Whatever you think of. Even dandelion

leaves if from

> >a clean place!

> >

> >

> > >>>Is it safe to cool the broth on the stove overnight, and

resume

> >cooking the next day? I don't often have a long stretch I can cook

> >it all at once. This time, I cooked the bones a very long time on

> >two separate days (3-4 hours one day, cooled overnight, then 3-4

> >hours a second day, then cooled and cracked the bones open, then

> >strained and returned it back to the stove for 3-4 hours.<<<

> >

> > This is fine, because if you leave the pot covered after you

turn the

> >heat off, it won't cool immediately, and by the time you wake up,

the bones

> >can be cracked...and you are going to return to a simmer. I cook

my soup

> >one day, then turn it off overnight, wake up crack and scrape,

then heat it

> >up again and cook. The more hours the better, you are extracting

through

> >simmering the broth, but 8 hours is still good. You have cooked

it long

> >enough, but longer is even better.

> >

> > >>>I plan to cool and run it through the blender, then strain to

catch

> >any bone slivers that might have gotten through. <<<

> >

> > I am confused here, did you remove the bones? If you did,

that's fine,

> >but after I crack all the bones, I throw them all back in the pot

to cook

> >again. When the whole mess is done cooking, I strain out all the

pieces,

> >return the broth to the pot, then add whatever I want to make a

soup. Since

> >Tom is on a rotation diet, you can divide up the bone broth,

freeze some of

> >it, and make different soups from it according to the foods he

can have

> >that day.

> >

> > >>>How much would you give to a 3 year old who is not taking a

mineral

> >supplement?<<<

> >

> > As much as you can get him to eat. You can make different

soups and use

> >it as a sauce with different foods, add what you can to it to

make it seem

> >different.

> >

> > >>> He eats a range of meats and veggies (lamb, duck,

> >buffalo, elk, beef, broccoli, squash, asparagus, beets, spinach,

> >brussel sprouts, celeriac, several expeller-pressed oils). He has

a

> >problem digesting his food - still lots of vegetable fibers

evident

> >in his stool. I'm hoping this will be a way to supplement his

> >minerals rather than return to the Brainchild Ultrasensitive

> >Minerals that have xanthan gum and he's allergic to (it triggers

his

> >eczema).<<<

> >

> > If Tom has this much difficulty digesting his food, excema

issue aside,

> >you can pretty much bet any money, any vitamin/mineral

supplements you may

> >give are going to shoot right through him anyway. What kind of

water does

> >Tom drink? Make sure to drink water with a ph of 7.2 or

preferably higher,

> >that will help a little with trace minerals. Do any of Tom's

doctors carry

> >or recommend any ionic trace mineral drops for water? This is a

way to

> >harden all water. Use hard water with all cooking. I have yet to

find a

> >comphrehensive vitamin/mineral supplement we can, on this end,

all tolerate

> >and furthermore, actually assimilate. We have tried this and

that,

> >constantly. The best help we have had is with individual

vitamin/mineral

> >supplementation. I do believe this soup is the best way to get

minerals

> >absorbed into people like us. For every meal, we use a little

vitamin c

> >powder, everytime we eat, just a few grains, as vitamin c helps

the body to

> >absorb and utilize all minerals. I

> > know Tom is allergic to citrus, I don't know what is out there

you can

> >use, but it would help if you can find something he tolerates.

> >

> >

> >

> > >>>By the way, it smells wonderful!<<< Yes, I love the soup

cooking, it

> >makes the house seem so homey, food is being made!

> >

> > Summer

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >---------------------------------

> >Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously

low rates.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>>>

A question about covering the soup while cooking and/or cooling...

when I was taught to make broth, I was told to leave it uncovered

for both cooking and especially for cooling ... I think the reason

was that bitter (or otherwise undesired) oils and essences evaporate

into the air, and if the pot's covered they'll drip back in. Should

I be capturing those instead by covering the pot, for cooking and

for cooling?<<<

I always do. I keep the lid ever so slightlt situated so it lets out a tiny

amount of steam, but I catch the rest. When I turn it off overnight, I keep the

pot tightly covered.

I also forgot to tell you, during the week, I save scraps from my veggies and

such, the ends, the cleaned peels, the tops and leaves, and stick them in the

freezer in a bag, and add them to all this simmering goodness.

>>>Sigh ... Tom's doctors, who are, by the way, two of the leading DAN!

doctors, do not provide any advice on water or minerals other

than " Yes, give him a multi-mineral supplement " and " Yes, of course

you should filter his water " . This is despite extensive queries on

my part, questions about things I've heard of like Water Oz (which

despite my efforts I can't find out enough about to figure out how

to supplement with it). Finally one of his DANs started him on RD-

Zinc, but that's the only mineral he's getting, she advised

continuing with Brainchild even though he is clearly having an

allergic reaction. I am very frustrated at not getting any guidance

and being expected, for the price we pay for these doctors, to still

have to do my own research! Any advice is VERY welcome!<<<

For the most part, every solution that was found to work for my children or

myself, came from researching. The little bit of guidance I had ever been given

was very inaccurate. If I had waited for specialists to cure me, I would be

dead. While under specialists care, my two sons never talked, and so I was told

it was likely they never would. In the past, we've seen some great specialists,

but no more. I go to the doctor in hand with what I want done next, not what

they say to do next. In my experience, the inability to tailor a regiman to a

unique person is where the slip up occurs. That leaves it up to me, to read,

research, talk to people, all that jazz and make up my own mind what feels

right, or to test what feels right.

We follow a protocol I developed for my son's unique needs similar to

's:

http://members.tripod.com/mueller_ranges/links/compendium/compendium.html

We have a bit more of an alternative skew on things, as I have for years been

studying the nutritional properties of plants. This is how things have worked

out for us, there is alot of useful information on 's site.

>>>

> This is a way to harden all water. Use hard water with all

cooking.

Can you say a bit more about how to harden water to the proper Ph? <<< Trace

mineral drops, like " Concentrace " . Redmond's sea salt also provides some trace

minerals as well.

>>>

Hmm, I would have to rotate C just like everything else, and he

doesn't tolerate citrus or corn - the only one I know that is

potentially safe is sago palm, we could give it 2 days of the week.

But I know C is volatile, doesn't stick around in the body. Is it

worth giving just 2 days out of 7?<<<

Yes, 2 days is better than not at all. Vitamin C is volatile, and only so much

can be used at one time by the body anyway, so we literally just sprinkle a " few

grains " on our food each time we eat. I wonder if Tom would react to literally a

couple of grains, and if you went slow for a long while, if his immune system

would then accept it? It's a technique we use, like with enzymes, to keep the

immune system from sensitizing. Just a few grains for a few weeks, then if

nothing happens, a few grains more. I don't know how the sago palm comes, grains

or powders, but it is just an idea.

>>>Sigh, this is SO much work ...<<< Yep, it is the truth, but you have to

believe it can be better.

Summer

[Guest guest]

> I also forgot to tell you, during the week, I save scraps from

my veggies and such, the ends, the cleaned peels, the tops and

leaves, and stick them in the freezer in a bag, and add them to all

this simmering goodness.

That's the way I've always made stock, but anymore, our diet is so

strict and limited that we only eat single foods alone, rather than

combining 2 or more foods together. That way, if Tom has reacted to

a food, it's easy to remove it from his diet and not have to throw

out a lot of frozen cooked food that's contaminated by a food he's

now allergic to. I learned this the hard way - I now have an entire

freezer and pantry full of food we can no longer eat, and I'm tired

of throwing out the efforts of my hard work! So all we do is combine

the pureed vegetable du jour with the meat broth du jour to make the

next day's soup, the night before.

> >>>Sigh ... Tom's doctors, who are, by the way, two of the leading

DAN!

> doctors, do not provide any advice on water or minerals other

> than " Yes, give him a multi-mineral supplement " and " Yes, of

course

> you should filter his water " .

> For the most part, every solution that was found to work for my

children or myself, came from researching.

I know you're right, but the research is so slow and it is so hard

to find information! I am afraid my child will be in school before I

can manage to figure it out all by myself. I spend so many hours

cooking and chauffering to therapy that I am not able to research

more than an hour a day - and there are already many important

things that aren't getting done at home (bills paid, basic cleaning,

laundry, hunting for a job to bring in badly-needed money for school

and medical care). I would expect a doctor to provide SOME

guidance, or at least exhibit some concern about the nutritional

status of a child with such a limited diet (because you asked

whether our doctors helped) and, because I know other DAN! docs do

assist somewhat with it.

> > This is a way to harden all water. Use hard water with all

> cooking.

> Can you say a bit more about how to harden water to the proper Ph?

<<< Trace mineral drops, like " Concentrace " . Redmond's sea salt also

provides some trace minerals as well.

Are you saying to add the Redmond's directly to the drinking water?

How much would you need? Is this for drinking water as well as

cooking water?

> But I know C is volatile, doesn't stick around in the body. Is it

> worth giving just 2 days out of 7?<<<

> I wonder if Tom would react to literally a couple of grains, and

if you went slow for a long while, if his immune system would then

accept it? It's a technique we use, like with enzymes, to keep the

immune system from sensitizing. Just a few grains for a few weeks,

then if nothing happens, a few grains more. I don't know how the

sago palm comes, grains or powders, but it is just an idea.

The way his allergies are, he's extremely sensitive to small amounts

of a thing, and over time he becomes more sensitive rather than less

sensitive. We've never tried a truly homeopathic approach, nor have

we tried provocative neutralization, though that is on our list of

things to try when we get some serious money.

>>>Sigh, this is SO much work ...<<< Yep, it is the truth, but you

have to believe it can be better.

Well, the alternative is to not try, and I am not capable of that. I

am much too stubborn to give up and just let my son be sick! So, I

am in it to the end. I would just like to see a little progress.

Suzanne