Why would anyone use an OS who wires shut?

[Guest guest]

I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Well, you managed to offend me! But then I am wired shut.

I can only repeat

- I had three initial consults with top NY surgeons including the

Head Guys at Cornell and NY Presbyterian (and the Head of the faculty

now at Atlanta

- all three told me that with my situation,requiring fairly major

surgery of upper/lower/genio at 43, I would probably need to be wired

shut; that was the basis of each of their recommendations

- whilst I am not going to do the clinical stuff justice, my chosen

surgeon was at length to say that he believes allowing the (as in MY)

lower jaw to heal " naturally " without pins etc would give a better

result FOR ME

- I have very high levels of trust in him and in the team that he has

assembled around him. This has been vindicated by the experience I

have had to date and by the results that he has delivered for some of

his other patients I have active contact with.

Congratulations on getting your extra 15 mm. I am glad your surgeries

have been so successful. But I am slightly alarmed by your blanket

generalisations on what is or is not out of date. I don't think they

are helpful or supportive. For one simple reason - they are not

accurate. I would urge anyone considering surgery to recognise both

the power of support groups (this one has been invaluable to me), and

their limitations when it comes to determining what is or is not now

acceptable in terms of surgery. It depends upon your case, your

surgeon and the decisions you take. And to anyone wired reading

's post, my advice is to take a deep breath. I did; it worked.

>

> I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

> had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

> mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

> were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Well, you managed to offend me! But then I am wired shut.

I can only repeat

- I had three initial consults with top NY surgeons including the

Head Guys at Cornell and NY Presbyterian (and the Head of the faculty

now at Atlanta

- all three told me that with my situation,requiring fairly major

surgery of upper/lower/genio at 43, I would probably need to be wired

shut; that was the basis of each of their recommendations

- whilst I am not going to do the clinical stuff justice, my chosen

surgeon was at length to say that he believes allowing the (as in MY)

lower jaw to heal " naturally " without pins etc would give a better

result FOR ME

- I have very high levels of trust in him and in the team that he has

assembled around him. This has been vindicated by the experience I

have had to date and by the results that he has delivered for some of

his other patients I have active contact with.

Congratulations on getting your extra 15 mm. I am glad your surgeries

have been so successful. But I am slightly alarmed by your blanket

generalisations on what is or is not out of date. I don't think they

are helpful or supportive. For one simple reason - they are not

accurate. I would urge anyone considering surgery to recognise both

the power of support groups (this one has been invaluable to me), and

their limitations when it comes to determining what is or is not now

acceptable in terms of surgery. It depends upon your case, your

surgeon and the decisions you take. And to anyone wired reading

's post, my advice is to take a deep breath. I did; it worked.

>

> I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

> had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

> mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

> were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Most of the time, wiring shut is not necessary. In certain cases, for

example, if the patient's bone is very soft, wiring shut may be

necessary. It is true however that being wired has a longer recovery

time vs not wired. That's why most doctors will opt to not wire a

patient shut unless it's necessary.

>

> I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

> had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

> mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

> were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Most of the time, wiring shut is not necessary. In certain cases, for

example, if the patient's bone is very soft, wiring shut may be

necessary. It is true however that being wired has a longer recovery

time vs not wired. That's why most doctors will opt to not wire a

patient shut unless it's necessary.

>

> I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

> had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

> mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

> were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Wiring is not some barbaric vestige of the past, . It is still very common.

I was

supposed to be wired (yes, me, with only a 3mm movement!), but my OS decided at

the

last minute that my OD did such a good job that I only needed the heavy bands.

She

begged me not to tell any of the other patients I would later meet in class

(Kaiser requires

all to take a 2 hour jaw surgery class). It's standard issue for her to wire her

patients,

though there are exceptions and I was one of the lucky ones.

Bottom line, I think most people use an OS they trust, regardless of whether or

not they

wire.

Maddie

>

> I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

> had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

> mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

> were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Wiring is not some barbaric vestige of the past, . It is still very common.

I was

supposed to be wired (yes, me, with only a 3mm movement!), but my OS decided at

the

last minute that my OD did such a good job that I only needed the heavy bands.

She

begged me not to tell any of the other patients I would later meet in class

(Kaiser requires

all to take a 2 hour jaw surgery class). It's standard issue for her to wire her

patients,

though there are exceptions and I was one of the lucky ones.

Bottom line, I think most people use an OS they trust, regardless of whether or

not they

wire.

Maddie

>

> I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

> had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

> mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

> were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Although I typically lurk, I'll jump in on this topic.

First, generally speaking when somebody says that they " don't want to

offend anyone " it usually means just the opposite.

Your post shows a rather 2-dimensional view of the whole procedure.

You were fortunate that you had a case that didn't require wiring.

Obviously, when you spoke to multiple OS's, they all agreed that your

case was insignificant enough as to not require wiring. Good for you.

However, your sample rate was a little low to give you the right to

criticize all methods and all people. Furthermore, the fact that you

had to have an additional surgery (even a genioplasty) is not a

ringing endorsement for your choice of doctors.

Also, your ACL surgery isn't a good parallel either. Again, the fact

that you were able to walk out of the center is a good indication that

the surgery was fairly insignificant. Almost to the point where you

wonder whether it was necessary at all. The trend towards

arthroscopic surgery as opposed to full surgery and a subsequent

casting is only applicable to non-chronic knee problems. For chronic

ACL problems, the arthroscopic surgery is often not the best option

and, in some cases, creates more problems than it solves.

To sum up, your one-size-fits-all philosophy is extremely

short-sighted. However, from the tone of your message, I would

suspect that this myopia applies to all your thinking.

Bob

(FYI, I'm 44, male, with lower jaw advancement currently being

considered.)

>

> I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

> had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

> mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

> were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Although I typically lurk, I'll jump in on this topic.

First, generally speaking when somebody says that they " don't want to

offend anyone " it usually means just the opposite.

Your post shows a rather 2-dimensional view of the whole procedure.

You were fortunate that you had a case that didn't require wiring.

Obviously, when you spoke to multiple OS's, they all agreed that your

case was insignificant enough as to not require wiring. Good for you.

However, your sample rate was a little low to give you the right to

criticize all methods and all people. Furthermore, the fact that you

had to have an additional surgery (even a genioplasty) is not a

ringing endorsement for your choice of doctors.

Also, your ACL surgery isn't a good parallel either. Again, the fact

that you were able to walk out of the center is a good indication that

the surgery was fairly insignificant. Almost to the point where you

wonder whether it was necessary at all. The trend towards

arthroscopic surgery as opposed to full surgery and a subsequent

casting is only applicable to non-chronic knee problems. For chronic

ACL problems, the arthroscopic surgery is often not the best option

and, in some cases, creates more problems than it solves.

To sum up, your one-size-fits-all philosophy is extremely

short-sighted. However, from the tone of your message, I would

suspect that this myopia applies to all your thinking.

Bob

(FYI, I'm 44, male, with lower jaw advancement currently being

considered.)

>

> I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery. I

> had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around, don't

> mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago you

> were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

I agree with you, . My surgeon generally doesn't wire people

shut any more either, and hasn't for about ten years. BUT, I believe

totally that if he needed to do it, he would, without hesitation.

He believes, actually, that there's less chance of those big jaw

muscles snapping back and causing a relapse if his patients aren't

wired. But if something else he knows about a circumstance, situation

or procedure needs consideration in the procedure, I'm sure he

adapts, for the patients' best results.

I have also read that there are some cuts that require wiring, and

that a bad break in the OR, or the discovery of some brittle bone in

the jaws can also make the plates and screws a less than perfect

choice.

Around here, few patients are wired, and I believe the relapses he's

had are few -- he was amazed when i told him i had heard of patients

having more than one relapse.

But that certainly does not mean that if he uses a different

technique, or that if another surgeon makes a different choice, he

is " obsolete " or archaic. Just that he believes different methodology

is appropriate for different cases.

We all want to think we can generalize, and that if one person heals

from lower advancement in a month, then someone who's had long and

difficult surgery on both jaws might expect the same. Alas, it isn't

true. You choose your surgeon carefully, do your best to follow

whatever his instructions are and then you wait for him and your body

to tell you that you're all back together again -- and it didn't even

take king's horses and king's men to do it (although i personally

think my surgeon's a prince of a fellow!).

And I'm not offended, either way. I don't think anyone's being

intolerant, nor offensive. Just exchanging ideas -- and I'd rather

see free exchange of information than sensitivities and hurt feelings

developing because different docs do different things in different

ways. Just mho.

Cammie

> >

> > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery.

I

> > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

different

> > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

don't

> > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

you

> > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > same correlation, it's out of date.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you, . My surgeon generally doesn't wire people

shut any more either, and hasn't for about ten years. BUT, I believe

totally that if he needed to do it, he would, without hesitation.

He believes, actually, that there's less chance of those big jaw

muscles snapping back and causing a relapse if his patients aren't

wired. But if something else he knows about a circumstance, situation

or procedure needs consideration in the procedure, I'm sure he

adapts, for the patients' best results.

I have also read that there are some cuts that require wiring, and

that a bad break in the OR, or the discovery of some brittle bone in

the jaws can also make the plates and screws a less than perfect

choice.

Around here, few patients are wired, and I believe the relapses he's

had are few -- he was amazed when i told him i had heard of patients

having more than one relapse.

But that certainly does not mean that if he uses a different

technique, or that if another surgeon makes a different choice, he

is " obsolete " or archaic. Just that he believes different methodology

is appropriate for different cases.

We all want to think we can generalize, and that if one person heals

from lower advancement in a month, then someone who's had long and

difficult surgery on both jaws might expect the same. Alas, it isn't

true. You choose your surgeon carefully, do your best to follow

whatever his instructions are and then you wait for him and your body

to tell you that you're all back together again -- and it didn't even

take king's horses and king's men to do it (although i personally

think my surgeon's a prince of a fellow!).

And I'm not offended, either way. I don't think anyone's being

intolerant, nor offensive. Just exchanging ideas -- and I'd rather

see free exchange of information than sensitivities and hurt feelings

developing because different docs do different things in different

ways. Just mho.

Cammie

> >

> > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery.

I

> > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

different

> > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

don't

> > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

you

> > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > same correlation, it's out of date.

>

[Guest guest]

First of all I feel sorry for anyone who is wired, obviously it makes

recovery much harder. My jaw surgery case was certainly as

complex as most involving open bite and significant Class III

maloclusion. The knee surgery was complete ACL

reconstruction, the ligament was totally gone, totally necessary

and as significant as any of them. I didn't mention I had a very

complex reconstruction of a chest deformity six years ago that

moved deformed ribs that were compressing my heart. So I've

had more than my fair share of recoveries and certainly from

" significant " operations.

.. The reason I had to have a second genioplasty is because my

recessiveness was so severe it couldn't be corrected by only one

genioplasty. Nonetheless, if I was a new patient considering jaw

surgery, I'd certainly at least ask for a second or third (or more)

opinion if I was told that wiring would be necessary. I know there

is a lot of differing opinions among oral surgeons on this issue

as well as many other issues, which is why you don't always

have to accept what one doctor says is the way it should be

done.

I simply don't like to see people suffer more than they should

have to, and if that's a myopic view of things, I apologize.

> >

> > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed

at

> > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

surgery. I

> > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

his

> > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

15mm

> > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring

is

> > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

don't

> > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an

ACL

> > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

you

> > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

First of all I feel sorry for anyone who is wired, obviously it makes

recovery much harder. My jaw surgery case was certainly as

complex as most involving open bite and significant Class III

maloclusion. The knee surgery was complete ACL

reconstruction, the ligament was totally gone, totally necessary

and as significant as any of them. I didn't mention I had a very

complex reconstruction of a chest deformity six years ago that

moved deformed ribs that were compressing my heart. So I've

had more than my fair share of recoveries and certainly from

" significant " operations.

.. The reason I had to have a second genioplasty is because my

recessiveness was so severe it couldn't be corrected by only one

genioplasty. Nonetheless, if I was a new patient considering jaw

surgery, I'd certainly at least ask for a second or third (or more)

opinion if I was told that wiring would be necessary. I know there

is a lot of differing opinions among oral surgeons on this issue

as well as many other issues, which is why you don't always

have to accept what one doctor says is the way it should be

done.

I simply don't like to see people suffer more than they should

have to, and if that's a myopic view of things, I apologize.

> >

> > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed

at

> > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

surgery. I

> > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

his

> > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

15mm

> > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple different

> > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring

is

> > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

don't

> > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an

ACL

> > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

you

> > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

,

I feel sorry for all the procedures you have been through. This

experience has really opened my eyes (my first time in hospital at

43).

I think you are absolutely right in encouraging people to take more

than one opinion at the early stages. This is not surgery to be

undertaken lightly. even though I was spending my own money at that

point, I consider alternative opinions essential to my coming round

to the whole thing.

The point I was trying to make is, in fact, reflected in your post.

There may well be debate about wiring/non-wiring amongst surgeons. In

my case,as I told you, three separate top surgeons in different parts

of the US told me I would be wired. Either way, I just don't think

it's helpful for us, as laymen, based upon highly selective data, to

generalise about " wrong " and " right " ways.

Believe me, I woildn't have been wired if I didn't believe it was

necessary. Neither do I believe any surgeon would do it otherwise.

Recovery has its challenges. Not least because if you can't speak,

people assume you can't HEAR either!!! But 15 days after the op, I

still put up the Christmas tree and did my shopping on 5th Avenue in

NYC today!

D

> > >

> > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed

> at

> > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

> surgery. I

> > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

> his

> > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

> 15mm

> > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

different

> > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring

> is

> > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

> don't

> > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an

> ACL

> > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

albeit

> > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

> you

> > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

,

I feel sorry for all the procedures you have been through. This

experience has really opened my eyes (my first time in hospital at

43).

I think you are absolutely right in encouraging people to take more

than one opinion at the early stages. This is not surgery to be

undertaken lightly. even though I was spending my own money at that

point, I consider alternative opinions essential to my coming round

to the whole thing.

The point I was trying to make is, in fact, reflected in your post.

There may well be debate about wiring/non-wiring amongst surgeons. In

my case,as I told you, three separate top surgeons in different parts

of the US told me I would be wired. Either way, I just don't think

it's helpful for us, as laymen, based upon highly selective data, to

generalise about " wrong " and " right " ways.

Believe me, I woildn't have been wired if I didn't believe it was

necessary. Neither do I believe any surgeon would do it otherwise.

Recovery has its challenges. Not least because if you can't speak,

people assume you can't HEAR either!!! But 15 days after the op, I

still put up the Christmas tree and did my shopping on 5th Avenue in

NYC today!

D

> > >

> > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed

> at

> > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

> surgery. I

> > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

> his

> > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

> 15mm

> > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

different

> > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring

> is

> > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

> don't

> > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an

> ACL

> > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

albeit

> > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

> you

> > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

, , et al,

You know, the other thing that this entire discussion, and many of

the discussions on this site point out, is that we are all making

decisions about surgery with less than perfect information. I, too,

did research and interviewed OSs before making my decision. I didn't

even ask about wiring. . . I asked about results and relapse and I

asked medical professionals I knew and trusted for opinions. I, too,

have great confidence in my OS. I wasn't wired, but if he had told

me I needed to be wired, I would not have hesitated. Despite my

trust, when I am hurting or wondering if I will ever be back to my

old self and, sometimes when I read posts here, doubts creep in. I

remind myself that I chose carefully, and really, really like my OS,

and the doubts pass.

But, what do any of us really know? We don't have much in the way of

hard, cold, objective data re. percentages of relapse or

complications. That kind of data is almost never available for

medical procedures. So, we all go with our research and our gut, and

we will all be fine. Interesting article in a recent " New Yorker "

about medical data availability using the context of cystic fibrosis

treatment centers.

, it sounds like you are doing GREAT. At the beginning, I did

not realize you were wired. Have you tried the fortified milk idea?

I loved how much extra protein I was able to get that way. Enjoy NYC

over the holidays! I will be there for a couple of days the first

week of January with my two high school kids and my sister's family.

I'm looking forward to it. I'm still very protective of my face,

especially because from below my eyes on down it is still very

sensitive (where it isn't still numb). I no longer cringe too much

in crowds or cars, but getting on an airplane will be a mental

challenge. (I, too, had upper, lower, and genio---7.5 hours of

surgery on a 47 year old body.) Hopefully, you will find some holiday

tastes that will work for you, so you can share with your friends.

If you really like cranberries, pumpkin or egg nog, those would be

relatively easy tastes to get in liquid form. Coffee was a big

milestone for me, too. I really missed that and now have it back.

I'm still a long way from normal, but can have a little more to eat

than you, which I won't go into. Best of luck, have a great holiday.

---Kathleen

> > > >

> > > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed

> > at

> > > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

> > surgery. I

> > > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

> > his

> > > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

> > 15mm

> > > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

> different

> > > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that

wiring

> > is

> > > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal

from

> > > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

> > don't

> > > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an

> > ACL

> > > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

> albeit

> > > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years

ago

> > you

> > > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is

the

> > > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

, , et al,

You know, the other thing that this entire discussion, and many of

the discussions on this site point out, is that we are all making

decisions about surgery with less than perfect information. I, too,

did research and interviewed OSs before making my decision. I didn't

even ask about wiring. . . I asked about results and relapse and I

asked medical professionals I knew and trusted for opinions. I, too,

have great confidence in my OS. I wasn't wired, but if he had told

me I needed to be wired, I would not have hesitated. Despite my

trust, when I am hurting or wondering if I will ever be back to my

old self and, sometimes when I read posts here, doubts creep in. I

remind myself that I chose carefully, and really, really like my OS,

and the doubts pass.

But, what do any of us really know? We don't have much in the way of

hard, cold, objective data re. percentages of relapse or

complications. That kind of data is almost never available for

medical procedures. So, we all go with our research and our gut, and

we will all be fine. Interesting article in a recent " New Yorker "

about medical data availability using the context of cystic fibrosis

treatment centers.

, it sounds like you are doing GREAT. At the beginning, I did

not realize you were wired. Have you tried the fortified milk idea?

I loved how much extra protein I was able to get that way. Enjoy NYC

over the holidays! I will be there for a couple of days the first

week of January with my two high school kids and my sister's family.

I'm looking forward to it. I'm still very protective of my face,

especially because from below my eyes on down it is still very

sensitive (where it isn't still numb). I no longer cringe too much

in crowds or cars, but getting on an airplane will be a mental

challenge. (I, too, had upper, lower, and genio---7.5 hours of

surgery on a 47 year old body.) Hopefully, you will find some holiday

tastes that will work for you, so you can share with your friends.

If you really like cranberries, pumpkin or egg nog, those would be

relatively easy tastes to get in liquid form. Coffee was a big

milestone for me, too. I really missed that and now have it back.

I'm still a long way from normal, but can have a little more to eat

than you, which I won't go into. Best of luck, have a great holiday.

---Kathleen

> > > >

> > > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed

> > at

> > > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

> > surgery. I

> > > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

> > his

> > > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

> > 15mm

> > > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

> different

> > > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that

wiring

> > is

> > > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal

from

> > > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

> > don't

> > > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an

> > ACL

> > > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

> albeit

> > > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years

ago

> > you

> > > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is

the

> > > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Kathleen,

Thanks for your post and your kind wishes.

I am doing OK, I think. Today, I think the worst thing has been just

the mental stress of having to think about this thing and nothing

else for so long.

went to get a haircut today and the receptionist was really impatient

and inconsiderate. but she got called on it by her manager and i got

the cut for free! Spirit of Xmas does exist, even in Gramercy park!!

Fortified milk idea is fantastic. It's a real help.

I hope you have a hreat Holiday with your family. Onwards and upwards

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am

amazed

> > > at

> > > > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

> > > surgery. I

> > > > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

> > > his

> > > > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

> > > 15mm

> > > > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

> > different

> > > > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't

even

> > > > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that

> wiring

> > > is

> > > > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal

> from

> > > > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop

around,

> > > don't

> > > > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an

> > > ACL

> > > > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

> > albeit

> > > > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years

> ago

> > > you

> > > > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is

> the

> > > > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Kathleen,

Thanks for your post and your kind wishes.

I am doing OK, I think. Today, I think the worst thing has been just

the mental stress of having to think about this thing and nothing

else for so long.

went to get a haircut today and the receptionist was really impatient

and inconsiderate. but she got called on it by her manager and i got

the cut for free! Spirit of Xmas does exist, even in Gramercy park!!

Fortified milk idea is fantastic. It's a real help.

I hope you have a hreat Holiday with your family. Onwards and upwards

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am

amazed

> > > at

> > > > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

> > > surgery. I

> > > > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

> > > his

> > > > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

> > > 15mm

> > > > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

> > different

> > > > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't

even

> > > > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that

> wiring

> > > is

> > > > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal

> from

> > > > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop

around,

> > > don't

> > > > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an

> > > ACL

> > > > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

> > albeit

> > > > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years

> ago

> > > you

> > > > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is

> the

> > > > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

My understanding of the wiring issue is this: OS's don't do it

unless they absolutely have to. That is the impression my OS gave

me when I was getting ready for my surgery. To call him " anti-

wiring " wouldn't have been accurate because he did still wire;

however, it was rare. He wired less than one patient per year, from

what I remember, and he did a lot of surgeries in a year. I don't

think it would be responsible medical practice for a doctor to

absolutely rule wiring out completly, but I also think it would be

irresponsible for a doctor to wire every patient. A doc's job is to

treat a patient however he/she deems best for that individual

patient. If that means the patient requires wiring, then that's

what the doc has to do.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am

amazed

> > > at

> > > > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

> > > surgery. I

> > > > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

> > > his

> > > > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

> > > 15mm

> > > > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

> > different

> > > > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't

even

> > > > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that

> wiring

> > > is

> > > > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal

> from

> > > > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop

around,

> > > don't

> > > > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had

an

> > > ACL

> > > > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

> > albeit

> > > > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen

years

> ago

> > > you

> > > > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff

is

> the

> > > > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

My understanding of the wiring issue is this: OS's don't do it

unless they absolutely have to. That is the impression my OS gave

me when I was getting ready for my surgery. To call him " anti-

wiring " wouldn't have been accurate because he did still wire;

however, it was rare. He wired less than one patient per year, from

what I remember, and he did a lot of surgeries in a year. I don't

think it would be responsible medical practice for a doctor to

absolutely rule wiring out completly, but I also think it would be

irresponsible for a doctor to wire every patient. A doc's job is to

treat a patient however he/she deems best for that individual

patient. If that means the patient requires wiring, then that's

what the doc has to do.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am

amazed

> > > at

> > > > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

> > > surgery. I

> > > > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of

> > > his

> > > > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed

> > > 15mm

> > > > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

> > different

> > > > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't

even

> > > > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that

> wiring

> > > is

> > > > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal

> from

> > > > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop

around,

> > > don't

> > > > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had

an

> > > ACL

> > > > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

> > albeit

> > > > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen

years

> ago

> > > you

> > > > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff

is

> the

> > > > > same correlation, it's out of date.