Re: Why would anyone slam a fellow poster? -, Bob

[Guest guest]

Whoa! Let's talk about surgery, and ideas, please, rather than

personal attacks, which are never fun for either end! And seldom shed

as much light as heat on whatever is being discussed, at least in my

observation...

ACL surgery is insignificant???? Compared to what? From what I've

heard about it, it can be difficult, a solution to a difficult

problem (when it works) and one procedure that, like jaw surgery, has

improved in the use of the latest technology.

Bob, as one who's had lower advancement, I would hope that my

experience would encourage you know that there have been successful,

and really relatively easy results (I was neither wired nor banded).

But pleeeeze, now I AM offended. Folks here, I think, generally try

to be friendly and helpful, you included, with the exception of a few

grouches like me, occasionally.

You have made quite a few gratuitous slams at a fellow patient and

poster, who's shared some pretty unusual info here. You slam not even

at what he says, really, but at HIM for saying them. And that makes

me profoundly uncomfortable. More, in fact, than did jaw surgery.

Please come out from your lurks when you want, but the posts I will

welcome are those with info, or even opinions, on surgery -- but not

on the, um, character, disposition etc. of fellow posters. So long as

the posters aren't perverse or cruel.

At least that's my opinion.

Best,

cammie

> >

> > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery.

I

> > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

different

> > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

don't

> > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

you

> > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Whoa! Let's talk about surgery, and ideas, please, rather than

personal attacks, which are never fun for either end! And seldom shed

as much light as heat on whatever is being discussed, at least in my

observation...

ACL surgery is insignificant???? Compared to what? From what I've

heard about it, it can be difficult, a solution to a difficult

problem (when it works) and one procedure that, like jaw surgery, has

improved in the use of the latest technology.

Bob, as one who's had lower advancement, I would hope that my

experience would encourage you know that there have been successful,

and really relatively easy results (I was neither wired nor banded).

But pleeeeze, now I AM offended. Folks here, I think, generally try

to be friendly and helpful, you included, with the exception of a few

grouches like me, occasionally.

You have made quite a few gratuitous slams at a fellow patient and

poster, who's shared some pretty unusual info here. You slam not even

at what he says, really, but at HIM for saying them. And that makes

me profoundly uncomfortable. More, in fact, than did jaw surgery.

Please come out from your lurks when you want, but the posts I will

welcome are those with info, or even opinions, on surgery -- but not

on the, um, character, disposition etc. of fellow posters. So long as

the posters aren't perverse or cruel.

At least that's my opinion.

Best,

cammie

> >

> > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw surgery.

I

> > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

different

> > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring is

> > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

don't

> > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked, albeit

> > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

you

> > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Cammie,

I welcome, as ever, both your experience and your maturity on this

subject.

I have found the solidarity as well as the practicality of this group

an asset both before and after surgery; at times it has thrown into

relief the difficulty close friends and family have had with trying

to understand this experience. people here " know' and that knowledge

has both practical and emotional benefits.

However, without question, now I am beyond the imediate short-term

(coping with after effects of steroids and antibiotics etc), my

greatest difficulty is (understandably) caused by being wired shut. I

can't eat easily; I can't really speak. Your earlier post comments

upon the need to understand the clinical necessities that make

everyone's case different. I agree. All I can do is offer my

experience up and take comfort in the knowledge I am not alone.

But, like Bob and others, I got very down when I read a contribution

which suggested (more than that, stated as fact) that this, the most

distressing part of the process, was a hangover from the past, by

implication something that was " not done " these days. Or, more

pertinently, should not be done.

I think is wrong on a simple basis of fact. I think that needs

correcting. I have to say that the impact of reading his

generalisation the week before my surgery would have unsettled me,

rather than supported me. And the difference between him and me is

that I think I would have thought twice, as an amateur (with only

limited investigation, imperfect knowledge (none when it comes to

other people's needs) and so on) before delivering such a verdict.

Personally, I couldn't have been blind to the inevitable reaction

that his note would cause in people like me. Reading it at 3 am

because I can't get to sleep. For me, the insensitivity lies there.

But the more important thing is perhaps we can agree, for anyone

thinking about this surgery

- every case is different

- wiring exists

- when judged to be in the clinical best interests of the patient

- that this is an area to have very deep conversations with your OS

about so that you understand why the approach he/she intends to take

is right for you. Because the consequences of being wired are not

insignificant.

I think we are also dealing with another aspect of psychology. One

way of dealing with this situation is to believe that " your " surgeon

is just the best there is. His expertise becomes yours and a

competitive tone emerges. (I might even suggest that guys are more

prone to this!). I really like my surgeon; I have faith in him and

what he can do. But I also have the humility to know that there are

other great ones out there who may well take different routes to the

solution.

We are not doctors. Where we can help each other is in exchanging

experience. As I pointed out to my surgeon, he has done hundreds of

these operations, thousands even. But when it comes to knowing what

it's like to have it done, I know more than he does.

> > >

> > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

surgery.

> I

> > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

> different

> > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring

is

> > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

> don't

> > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

albeit

> > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

> you

> > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Cammie,

I welcome, as ever, both your experience and your maturity on this

subject.

I have found the solidarity as well as the practicality of this group

an asset both before and after surgery; at times it has thrown into

relief the difficulty close friends and family have had with trying

to understand this experience. people here " know' and that knowledge

has both practical and emotional benefits.

However, without question, now I am beyond the imediate short-term

(coping with after effects of steroids and antibiotics etc), my

greatest difficulty is (understandably) caused by being wired shut. I

can't eat easily; I can't really speak. Your earlier post comments

upon the need to understand the clinical necessities that make

everyone's case different. I agree. All I can do is offer my

experience up and take comfort in the knowledge I am not alone.

But, like Bob and others, I got very down when I read a contribution

which suggested (more than that, stated as fact) that this, the most

distressing part of the process, was a hangover from the past, by

implication something that was " not done " these days. Or, more

pertinently, should not be done.

I think is wrong on a simple basis of fact. I think that needs

correcting. I have to say that the impact of reading his

generalisation the week before my surgery would have unsettled me,

rather than supported me. And the difference between him and me is

that I think I would have thought twice, as an amateur (with only

limited investigation, imperfect knowledge (none when it comes to

other people's needs) and so on) before delivering such a verdict.

Personally, I couldn't have been blind to the inevitable reaction

that his note would cause in people like me. Reading it at 3 am

because I can't get to sleep. For me, the insensitivity lies there.

But the more important thing is perhaps we can agree, for anyone

thinking about this surgery

- every case is different

- wiring exists

- when judged to be in the clinical best interests of the patient

- that this is an area to have very deep conversations with your OS

about so that you understand why the approach he/she intends to take

is right for you. Because the consequences of being wired are not

insignificant.

I think we are also dealing with another aspect of psychology. One

way of dealing with this situation is to believe that " your " surgeon

is just the best there is. His expertise becomes yours and a

competitive tone emerges. (I might even suggest that guys are more

prone to this!). I really like my surgeon; I have faith in him and

what he can do. But I also have the humility to know that there are

other great ones out there who may well take different routes to the

solution.

We are not doctors. Where we can help each other is in exchanging

experience. As I pointed out to my surgeon, he has done hundreds of

these operations, thousands even. But when it comes to knowing what

it's like to have it done, I know more than he does.

> > >

> > > I don't want to offend anyone, but it's 2004 and I am amazed at

> > > hearing about patients still being wired shut after jaw

surgery.

> I

> > > had my surgery ten years ago and my OS didn't wire any of his

> > > patients. I recently had a second genioplasty (I needed 15mm

> > > more and I got it). In the process I talked to a couple

> different

> > > OS's, neither of which wire people shut and one doesn't even

> > > require a totally soft diet. No one should assume that wiring

is

> > > necessary anymore unless perhaps you had some very

> > > extraordinary type of surgery. It's tough enough to heal from

> > > these surgeries without the wiring shut stuff. Shop around,

> don't

> > > mess around surgeons who are still in the 1970's. I had an ACL

> > > reconstruction on my knee earlier this year..... I walked,

albeit

> > > with a brace, out of the surgery center...... fifteen years ago

> you

> > > were in a cast for three months. This wiring shut stuff is the

> > > same correlation, it's out of date.

[Guest guest]

Perhaps one lesson to be drawn from this thread is that, if anyone

considering orthognathic (or any other surgery) encounters

something " unsettling " (whether it's a preganant woman bombarded with

accounts of nightmare labor and delivery, or a jaw surgery patient

who reads a description of a difficult recovery, things that can go

wrong in the OR, or has family and friends who not only are not

supportive but insist on trying to discourage the surgery) should tka

the fears and worries to the professionals who are most knowledgeable

about that specific procedure and case. Always, always let your

surgeon know if something's worrying you. He or she is your very best

source of professional knowledge. And if you can't trust that source,

then I believe it is indeed time to seek another opinion, until your

own mind is made up and at ease with your decision.

And I would modify your last statement only a bit: Your surgeon may

know a great deal more about having the surgery done than you do. He

may have seen thousands of patients go through it, and helped them

with their fears, troubles and successes, in a variety of situations.

But he doesn't know as much about YOUR having it done, or your own

experience of it, as you do.

I do wish all well, wired/unwired/believing the things I do or not. I

still think this is no place for personal attacks, or ad hominem

arguments, though.

And thank you for the nice words. Personal flattery -- particularly

if it is about me -- is never beyond the pale. ;~> (tee-hee!)

>

> Cammie,

>

> I welcome, as ever, both your experience and your maturity on this

> subject.

>

> I have found the solidarity as well as the practicality of this

group

> an asset both before and after surgery; at times it has thrown into

> relief the difficulty close friends and family have had with trying

> to understand this experience. people here " know' and that

knowledge

> has both practical and emotional benefits.

>

> However, without question, now I am beyond the imediate short-term

> (coping with after effects of steroids and antibiotics etc), my

> greatest difficulty is (understandably) caused by being wired shut.

I

> can't eat easily; I can't really speak. Your earlier post comments

> upon the need to understand the clinical necessities that make

> everyone's case different. I agree. All I can do is offer my

> experience up and take comfort in the knowledge I am not alone.

>

> But, like Bob and others, I got very down when I read a

contribution

> which suggested (more than that, stated as fact) that this, the

most

> distressing part of the process, was a hangover from the past, by

> implication something that was " not done " these days. Or, more

> pertinently, should not be done.

>

> I think is wrong on a simple basis of fact. I think that

needs

> correcting. I have to say that the impact of reading his

> generalisation the week before my surgery would have unsettled me,

> rather than supported me. And the difference between him and me is

> that I think I would have thought twice, as an amateur (with only

> limited investigation, imperfect knowledge (none when it comes to

> other people's needs) and so on) before delivering such a verdict.

> Personally, I couldn't have been blind to the inevitable reaction

> that his note would cause in people like me. Reading it at 3 am

> because I can't get to sleep. For me, the insensitivity lies there.

>

> But the more important thing is perhaps we can agree, for anyone

> thinking about this surgery

> - every case is different

> - wiring exists

> - when judged to be in the clinical best interests of the patient

> - that this is an area to have very deep conversations with your

OS

> about so that you understand why the approach he/she intends to

take

> is right for you. Because the consequences of being wired are not

> insignificant.

>

> I think we are also dealing with another aspect of psychology. One

> way of dealing with this situation is to believe that " your "

surgeon

> is just the best there is. His expertise becomes yours and a

> competitive tone emerges. (I might even suggest that guys are more

> prone to this!). I really like my surgeon; I have faith in him and

> what he can do. But I also have the humility to know that there are

> other great ones out there who may well take different routes to

the

> solution.

>

> We are not doctors. Where we can help each other is in exchanging

> experience. As I pointed out to my surgeon, he has done hundreds of

> these operations, thousands even. But when it comes to knowing what

> it's like to have it done, I know more than he does.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps one lesson to be drawn from this thread is that, if anyone

considering orthognathic (or any other surgery) encounters

something " unsettling " (whether it's a preganant woman bombarded with

accounts of nightmare labor and delivery, or a jaw surgery patient

who reads a description of a difficult recovery, things that can go

wrong in the OR, or has family and friends who not only are not

supportive but insist on trying to discourage the surgery) should tka

the fears and worries to the professionals who are most knowledgeable

about that specific procedure and case. Always, always let your

surgeon know if something's worrying you. He or she is your very best

source of professional knowledge. And if you can't trust that source,

then I believe it is indeed time to seek another opinion, until your

own mind is made up and at ease with your decision.

And I would modify your last statement only a bit: Your surgeon may

know a great deal more about having the surgery done than you do. He

may have seen thousands of patients go through it, and helped them

with their fears, troubles and successes, in a variety of situations.

But he doesn't know as much about YOUR having it done, or your own

experience of it, as you do.

I do wish all well, wired/unwired/believing the things I do or not. I

still think this is no place for personal attacks, or ad hominem

arguments, though.

And thank you for the nice words. Personal flattery -- particularly

if it is about me -- is never beyond the pale. ;~> (tee-hee!)

>

> Cammie,

>

> I welcome, as ever, both your experience and your maturity on this

> subject.

>

> I have found the solidarity as well as the practicality of this

group

> an asset both before and after surgery; at times it has thrown into

> relief the difficulty close friends and family have had with trying

> to understand this experience. people here " know' and that

knowledge

> has both practical and emotional benefits.

>

> However, without question, now I am beyond the imediate short-term

> (coping with after effects of steroids and antibiotics etc), my

> greatest difficulty is (understandably) caused by being wired shut.

I

> can't eat easily; I can't really speak. Your earlier post comments

> upon the need to understand the clinical necessities that make

> everyone's case different. I agree. All I can do is offer my

> experience up and take comfort in the knowledge I am not alone.

>

> But, like Bob and others, I got very down when I read a

contribution

> which suggested (more than that, stated as fact) that this, the

most

> distressing part of the process, was a hangover from the past, by

> implication something that was " not done " these days. Or, more

> pertinently, should not be done.

>

> I think is wrong on a simple basis of fact. I think that

needs

> correcting. I have to say that the impact of reading his

> generalisation the week before my surgery would have unsettled me,

> rather than supported me. And the difference between him and me is

> that I think I would have thought twice, as an amateur (with only

> limited investigation, imperfect knowledge (none when it comes to

> other people's needs) and so on) before delivering such a verdict.

> Personally, I couldn't have been blind to the inevitable reaction

> that his note would cause in people like me. Reading it at 3 am

> because I can't get to sleep. For me, the insensitivity lies there.

>

> But the more important thing is perhaps we can agree, for anyone

> thinking about this surgery

> - every case is different

> - wiring exists

> - when judged to be in the clinical best interests of the patient

> - that this is an area to have very deep conversations with your

OS

> about so that you understand why the approach he/she intends to

take

> is right for you. Because the consequences of being wired are not

> insignificant.

>

> I think we are also dealing with another aspect of psychology. One

> way of dealing with this situation is to believe that " your "

surgeon

> is just the best there is. His expertise becomes yours and a

> competitive tone emerges. (I might even suggest that guys are more

> prone to this!). I really like my surgeon; I have faith in him and

> what he can do. But I also have the humility to know that there are

> other great ones out there who may well take different routes to

the

> solution.

>

> We are not doctors. Where we can help each other is in exchanging

> experience. As I pointed out to my surgeon, he has done hundreds of

> these operations, thousands even. But when it comes to knowing what

> it's like to have it done, I know more than he does.

>

>

>