Fumblin In the Middle of the Night

[Guest guest]

Jeeeze Louiseeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When is ever enough enough? Okay, I fessed about having to take Iron

(Ferriton) and took advice to take with with midnght whiz breaks,,,,,,,,,,I

also read about Vit C,,,,,,wherein Ester C in the powder form might be

better,,,,,,,so,,,,,,I resolved to take all the 500mg tabs outta the

megaboxes I have,,,,,,,,do one teaspoon of the newly acquired Esther C

(3,000 mg) and down the ferrous fumerate in the middle of the

night,,,,,,,now,,,,,,,I am thinking I am truly living a bad dream here! The

C powder is fairly yuck,,,,,,,,so,,,,,,,being that it is C,,,,,I fumble

around during the night,,,,,,,with with the Braun hand mixer,,,,,,splash

some OJ in a cup,,,,,,,do some powered crap,,,,,,,and down it with my Iron

tab,,,,,,then stumble off to bed,,,,,,trying not to dribble,,,,,,,,,

Wait,,,,,is it me or are there just too many rules to abide by? Screw

it,,,,,,I ain't changing nothing,,,,,,,if juice is bad,,,,,,and that is the

only juice I have,,,,,,,,,,,then so be it,,,,,,,,,I will just leave my body

to science,,,,,,,,,yanno? What I am tryin to say here,,,if this is not fun

and celbratory of a new life,,,,,,I don't wanna do it! Yanno???????

Dan Slone

Surgery 5/2/2000

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

Jeeeze Louiseeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When is ever enough enough? Okay, I fessed about having to take Iron

(Ferriton) and took advice to take with with midnght whiz breaks,,,,,,,,,,I

also read about Vit C,,,,,,wherein Ester C in the powder form might be

better,,,,,,,so,,,,,,I resolved to take all the 500mg tabs outta the

megaboxes I have,,,,,,,,do one teaspoon of the newly acquired Esther C

(3,000 mg) and down the ferrous fumerate in the middle of the

night,,,,,,,now,,,,,,,I am thinking I am truly living a bad dream here! The

C powder is fairly yuck,,,,,,,,so,,,,,,,being that it is C,,,,,I fumble

around during the night,,,,,,,with with the Braun hand mixer,,,,,,splash

some OJ in a cup,,,,,,,do some powered crap,,,,,,,and down it with my Iron

tab,,,,,,then stumble off to bed,,,,,,trying not to dribble,,,,,,,,,

Wait,,,,,is it me or are there just too many rules to abide by? Screw

it,,,,,,I ain't changing nothing,,,,,,,if juice is bad,,,,,,and that is the

only juice I have,,,,,,,,,,,then so be it,,,,,,,,,I will just leave my body

to science,,,,,,,,,yanno? What I am tryin to say here,,,if this is not fun

and celbratory of a new life,,,,,,I don't wanna do it! Yanno???????

Dan Slone

Surgery 5/2/2000

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

What I am tryin to say here,,,if this is not fun

> and celbratory of a new life,,,,,,I don't wanna do it! Yanno???????

>

> Dan Slone

Dan....I can't believe you said this........I have been realizing that

" obsessing " over all this post-op stuff is the leading cause of what landed

me on a shrinks couch! The inspiration that I received in my box this

morning (a daily inspirational service I belong to) was this:

" Preserving the health by too severe a rule is a wearisome malady. "

Francois De La Rochfoucauld.

Now I wish I could just decipher between what is obsessive and what is

necessary......... P.

Re: Re: calcium and iron

>

> I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to

have

> any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with

iron,

> and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

> course

> that doesn't mean it's not so.

>

> in NJ

> ************************************

> In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> shihtzumom@... writes:

>

>

> > Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> > juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

> with

> > iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> > one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> > it, the better.

> >

> > Chrissie

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What I am tryin to say here,,,if this is not fun

> and celbratory of a new life,,,,,,I don't wanna do it! Yanno???????

>

> Dan Slone

Dan....I can't believe you said this........I have been realizing that

" obsessing " over all this post-op stuff is the leading cause of what landed

me on a shrinks couch! The inspiration that I received in my box this

morning (a daily inspirational service I belong to) was this:

" Preserving the health by too severe a rule is a wearisome malady. "

Francois De La Rochfoucauld.

Now I wish I could just decipher between what is obsessive and what is

necessary......... P.

Re: Re: calcium and iron

>

> I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to

have

> any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with

iron,

> and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

> course

> that doesn't mean it's not so.

>

> in NJ

> ************************************

> In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> shihtzumom@... writes:

>

>

> > Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> > juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

> with

> > iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> > one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> > it, the better.

> >

> > Chrissie

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

One of the things that has been confusing in many of the OSSG on-line

groups is the advice that is given that may or may not be correct.

The calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate and impact carbs vs. non-

impact carbs and can we or can we not absorb more than 30 grams of

protein at a time, does caffeine deplete calcium or not, does

caffeine really make a lot of difference in H2O consumption, et al.

are all discussions that people have over and over again that only

seem to confuse the issues. Do we overcomplicate these things? How

often are sincere people who share these theories sincerely wrong?

There is a lot of speculation and opinion in all of these

arguments. Iron with or without fruit juice? Hmm. These

discussions remind me of the ever discussed " How many angels can

dance on the head of a pin " question. (For the record, the true

answer is 132). :-)

Does anybody know if there are peer reviewed studies on any of this

(except, of course, for the angel question)? Many of these arguments

seem to be coming from old wives tales (no offense intended, ladies)

rather than for actual medical knowledge gained via true scientific

study.

God bless,

Joe

<><

> What I am tryin to say here,,,if this is not fun

> > and celbratory of a new life,,,,,,I don't wanna do it!

Yanno???????

> >

> > Dan Slone

>

> Dan....I can't believe you said this........I have been realizing

that

> " obsessing " over all this post-op stuff is the leading cause of

what landed

> me on a shrinks couch! The inspiration that I received in my box

this

> morning (a daily inspirational service I belong to) was this:

> " Preserving the health by too severe a rule is a wearisome malady. "

> Francois De La Rochfoucauld.

> Now I wish I could just decipher between what is obsessive and

what is

> necessary......... P.

> Re: Re: calcium and iron

> >

> > I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package

not to

> have

> > any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that

with

> iron,

> > and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy,

but of

> > course

> > that doesn't mean it's not so.

> >

> > in NJ

> > ************************************

> > In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > shihtzumom@s... writes:

> >

> >

> > > Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I

avoid all

> > > juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that

don't go

> > with

> > > iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more

specific on this

> > > one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you

have with

> > > it, the better.

> > >

> > > Chrissie

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

One of the things that has been confusing in many of the OSSG on-line

groups is the advice that is given that may or may not be correct.

The calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate and impact carbs vs. non-

impact carbs and can we or can we not absorb more than 30 grams of

protein at a time, does caffeine deplete calcium or not, does

caffeine really make a lot of difference in H2O consumption, et al.

are all discussions that people have over and over again that only

seem to confuse the issues. Do we overcomplicate these things? How

often are sincere people who share these theories sincerely wrong?

There is a lot of speculation and opinion in all of these

arguments. Iron with or without fruit juice? Hmm. These

discussions remind me of the ever discussed " How many angels can

dance on the head of a pin " question. (For the record, the true

answer is 132). :-)

Does anybody know if there are peer reviewed studies on any of this

(except, of course, for the angel question)? Many of these arguments

seem to be coming from old wives tales (no offense intended, ladies)

rather than for actual medical knowledge gained via true scientific

study.

God bless,

Joe

<><

> What I am tryin to say here,,,if this is not fun

> > and celbratory of a new life,,,,,,I don't wanna do it!

Yanno???????

> >

> > Dan Slone

>

> Dan....I can't believe you said this........I have been realizing

that

> " obsessing " over all this post-op stuff is the leading cause of

what landed

> me on a shrinks couch! The inspiration that I received in my box

this

> morning (a daily inspirational service I belong to) was this:

> " Preserving the health by too severe a rule is a wearisome malady. "

> Francois De La Rochfoucauld.

> Now I wish I could just decipher between what is obsessive and

what is

> necessary......... P.

> Re: Re: calcium and iron

> >

> > I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package

not to

> have

> > any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that

with

> iron,

> > and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy,

but of

> > course

> > that doesn't mean it's not so.

> >

> > in NJ

> > ************************************

> > In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > shihtzumom@s... writes:

> >

> >

> > > Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I

avoid all

> > > juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that

don't go

> > with

> > > iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more

specific on this

> > > one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you

have with

> > > it, the better.

> > >

> > > Chrissie

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/26/2003 2:54:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jmarino516@... writes:

> The calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate and impact carbs vs. non-

> impact carbs and can we or can we not absorb more than 30 grams of

> protein at a time, does caffeine deplete calcium or not, does

> caffeine really make a lot of difference in H2O consumption

I don't think the issue is so much " old wive's tales " as it is you can find a

" scientific study " to support whatever point of view you want to promote. I

spent a little time this evening doing web research, and thought I'd share

some stuff on the issues you specifically brought up (I don't care about the

carb thing, so I ignored that one.)

I am not promoting or supporting these in one way or the other, and this is

by no means intended to be an exhaustive review of the literature (I got

bored after an hour and my family was yelling at me for staying on the

computer too long). Really, the information is out there if you want to take

the time to read it. If you just want somebody to tell you the " truth " ?

Just ain't gonna happen.

Kate

*****************************************************************************

calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate

· <A

HREF= " http://odp.od.nih.gov/consensus/cons/097/097_statement.htm " >http://odp.od.\

nih.gov/consensus/cons/097/097_statement.htm</A>

" Absorption of calcium supplements is most efficient at individual doses of

500 mg or less and when taken between meals. Ingesting calcium supplements

between meals supports calcium bioavailability, since food may contain

certain compounds that reduce calcium absorption (e.g., oxalates). However,

absorption of one form of calcium supplementation, calcium carbonate, is

impaired in fasted individuals who have an absence of gastric acid.

Absorption of calcium carbonate can be improved in these individuals when it

is taken with certain food. The potential for calcium supplementation to

interfere with iron absorption is an important consideration when it is

ingested with meals. Alternatively, calcium supplementation in the form of

calcium citrate does not require gastric acid for optimal absorption and thus

could be considered in older individuals with reduced gastric acid

production. In individuals with adequate gastric acid production, it is

preferable to ingest calcium supplements between meals. "

· <A

HREF= " http://www.calciuminfo.com/prof/3_9.htm " >http://www.calciuminfo.com/prof/3\

_9.htm</A> - has references to 10 different

studies on the issue of carbonate vs. citate

· In the November, 1999 issue of The Journal of Clinical Pharmacology,

J. Heller, MD and his colleagues compared the calcium absorption of

Citracal (a calcium citrate formulation) and Os-Cal (a calcium carbonate one)

after a single oral dose (500 mg calcium), taken with a meal. By measuring

blood levels of calcium, they demonstrated that calcium citrate is 2.5 times

more bioavailable (easier for your body to use) than calcium carbonate.

does caffeine deplete calcium or not

· <A

HREF= " http://nutrition.tufts.edu/news/matters/2002-12-02.html " >http://nutrition.\

tufts.edu/news/matters/2002-12-02.html</A> (you'd need to

write to tufts to get their source, I feel pretty confident they have one)

" Caffeine can also increase calcium losses, but moderate amounts (300 mg per

day) seem to have little influence on bone health. "

· From the Journal of AMA: (JAMA, 26 Jan. 1994, p. 280-3.)

" There was a significant association between (drinking more) caffeinated

coffee and decreasing bone mineral density at both the hip and the spine,

independent of age, obesity, years since menopause, and the use of tobacco,

estrogen, alcohol, thiazides, and calcium supplements [in women]. "

· studies conducted at The Pennsylvania State University's College of

Medicine and the Mayo Clinic have found that while caffeine intake slightly

increases urinary calcium excretion, caffeine was not an important risk

factor for osteoporosis.

· Barrett-Connor, E., Chang, JC, and Edelstein, SL. Coffee-associated

osteoporosis offset by daily milk consumption. Journal of the American

Medical Association, 271:280-283, 1994.

can we or can we not absorb more than 30 grams of protein at a time

· <A

HREF= " http://www.getbig.com/articles/protein.htm " >http://www.getbig.com/articles\

/protein.htm</A> - Barry Finnin, PhD

Article discusses how amino acids are absorbed, and the optimal quantities

per dosage, but no studies quoted - really an interesting article

caffeine really make a lot of difference in H2O consumption

· <A HREF= " http://ific.org/proactive/newsroom/release.vtml?id=17689

" >http://ific.org/proactive/newsroom/release.vtml?id=17689</A> (the article

did not quote the research, but I am sure they will provide it if you want to

write to them)

" Caffeine is a mild diuretic, but the urinary output effects attributed to

caffeine have frequently been exaggerated. Recent research has found that the

minimal diuretic effects of caffeine do not compromise overall body hydration

status in healthy women. "

· <A HREF= " http://ific.org/proactive/newsroom/release.vtml?id=17689

" >http://www.dartmouth.edu/dms/news/2002_h2/pdf/8x8.pdf</A>

Grandjean AC, et al. The effect of caffeinated, non-caffeinated, caloric and

non-caloric beverages in hydration. Journal of American College of Nutrition,

19(5):591-600, 2000

" advising people to disregard caffienated beverages as part of the daily

fluid intake is not substantiated… "

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/26/2003 2:54:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jmarino516@... writes:

> The calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate and impact carbs vs. non-

> impact carbs and can we or can we not absorb more than 30 grams of

> protein at a time, does caffeine deplete calcium or not, does

> caffeine really make a lot of difference in H2O consumption

I don't think the issue is so much " old wive's tales " as it is you can find a

" scientific study " to support whatever point of view you want to promote. I

spent a little time this evening doing web research, and thought I'd share

some stuff on the issues you specifically brought up (I don't care about the

carb thing, so I ignored that one.)

I am not promoting or supporting these in one way or the other, and this is

by no means intended to be an exhaustive review of the literature (I got

bored after an hour and my family was yelling at me for staying on the

computer too long). Really, the information is out there if you want to take

the time to read it. If you just want somebody to tell you the " truth " ?

Just ain't gonna happen.

Kate

*****************************************************************************

calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate

· <A

HREF= " http://odp.od.nih.gov/consensus/cons/097/097_statement.htm " >http://odp.od.\

nih.gov/consensus/cons/097/097_statement.htm</A>

" Absorption of calcium supplements is most efficient at individual doses of

500 mg or less and when taken between meals. Ingesting calcium supplements

between meals supports calcium bioavailability, since food may contain

certain compounds that reduce calcium absorption (e.g., oxalates). However,

absorption of one form of calcium supplementation, calcium carbonate, is

impaired in fasted individuals who have an absence of gastric acid.

Absorption of calcium carbonate can be improved in these individuals when it

is taken with certain food. The potential for calcium supplementation to

interfere with iron absorption is an important consideration when it is

ingested with meals. Alternatively, calcium supplementation in the form of

calcium citrate does not require gastric acid for optimal absorption and thus

could be considered in older individuals with reduced gastric acid

production. In individuals with adequate gastric acid production, it is

preferable to ingest calcium supplements between meals. "

· <A

HREF= " http://www.calciuminfo.com/prof/3_9.htm " >http://www.calciuminfo.com/prof/3\

_9.htm</A> - has references to 10 different

studies on the issue of carbonate vs. citate

· In the November, 1999 issue of The Journal of Clinical Pharmacology,

J. Heller, MD and his colleagues compared the calcium absorption of

Citracal (a calcium citrate formulation) and Os-Cal (a calcium carbonate one)

after a single oral dose (500 mg calcium), taken with a meal. By measuring

blood levels of calcium, they demonstrated that calcium citrate is 2.5 times

more bioavailable (easier for your body to use) than calcium carbonate.

does caffeine deplete calcium or not

· <A

HREF= " http://nutrition.tufts.edu/news/matters/2002-12-02.html " >http://nutrition.\

tufts.edu/news/matters/2002-12-02.html</A> (you'd need to

write to tufts to get their source, I feel pretty confident they have one)

" Caffeine can also increase calcium losses, but moderate amounts (300 mg per

day) seem to have little influence on bone health. "

· From the Journal of AMA: (JAMA, 26 Jan. 1994, p. 280-3.)

" There was a significant association between (drinking more) caffeinated

coffee and decreasing bone mineral density at both the hip and the spine,

independent of age, obesity, years since menopause, and the use of tobacco,

estrogen, alcohol, thiazides, and calcium supplements [in women]. "

· studies conducted at The Pennsylvania State University's College of

Medicine and the Mayo Clinic have found that while caffeine intake slightly

increases urinary calcium excretion, caffeine was not an important risk

factor for osteoporosis.

· Barrett-Connor, E., Chang, JC, and Edelstein, SL. Coffee-associated

osteoporosis offset by daily milk consumption. Journal of the American

Medical Association, 271:280-283, 1994.

can we or can we not absorb more than 30 grams of protein at a time

· <A

HREF= " http://www.getbig.com/articles/protein.htm " >http://www.getbig.com/articles\

/protein.htm</A> - Barry Finnin, PhD

Article discusses how amino acids are absorbed, and the optimal quantities

per dosage, but no studies quoted - really an interesting article

caffeine really make a lot of difference in H2O consumption

· <A HREF= " http://ific.org/proactive/newsroom/release.vtml?id=17689

" >http://ific.org/proactive/newsroom/release.vtml?id=17689</A> (the article

did not quote the research, but I am sure they will provide it if you want to

write to them)

" Caffeine is a mild diuretic, but the urinary output effects attributed to

caffeine have frequently been exaggerated. Recent research has found that the

minimal diuretic effects of caffeine do not compromise overall body hydration

status in healthy women. "

· <A HREF= " http://ific.org/proactive/newsroom/release.vtml?id=17689

" >http://www.dartmouth.edu/dms/news/2002_h2/pdf/8x8.pdf</A>

Grandjean AC, et al. The effect of caffeinated, non-caffeinated, caloric and

non-caloric beverages in hydration. Journal of American College of Nutrition,

19(5):591-600, 2000

" advising people to disregard caffienated beverages as part of the daily

fluid intake is not substantiated… "

[Guest guest]

This is just the carbonate vs. citrate excerpt from my longer post this

evening. Just how much evidence do you need to see to believe it's true for

most people? It may not be true for *you* - no study returns 100%

statistical accuracy. I don't question that your calcium consumption may be

doing the job for you, particularly since there are ways to improve carbonate

absorption. But, I'll always go for the biggest bang for my calcium buck,

since I am in several " at risk " categories for osteoporosis.

Kate

In a message dated 4/26/2003 6:03:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jmarino516@... writes:

> I

> seriously need to know whether something is factual or opinion.

> There are many things that I have read in support group forums that

> are actually inaccurate, but repeated across many groups as fact.

> That being the case, I need to see evidence that truly proves these

> opinions.

>

· <A

HREF= " http://odp.od.nih.gov/consensus/cons/097/097_statement.htm " >http://odp.od.\

nih.gov/consensus/cons/097/097_statement.htm</A>

" Absorption of calcium supplements is most efficient at individual doses of

500 mg or less and when taken between meals. Ingesting calcium supplements

between meals supports calcium bioavailability, since food may contain

certain compounds that reduce calcium absorption (e.g., oxalates). However,

absorption of one form of calcium supplementation, calcium carbonate, is

impaired in fasted individuals who have an absence of gastric acid.

Absorption of calcium carbonate can be improved in these individuals when it

is taken with certain food. The potential for calcium supplementation to

interfere with iron absorption is an important consideration when it is

ingested with meals. Alternatively, calcium supplementation in the form of

calcium citrate does not require gastric acid for optimal absorption and thus

could be considered in older individuals with reduced gastric acid

production. In individuals with adequate gastric acid production, it is

preferable to ingest calcium supplements between meals. "

· <A

HREF= " http://www.calciuminfo.com/prof/3_9.htm " >http://www.calciuminfo.com/prof/3\

_9.htm</A> - has references to 10 different

studies on the issue of carbonate vs. citrate

· In the November, 1999 issue of The Journal of Clinical Pharmacology,

J. Heller, MD and his colleagues compared the calcium absorption of

Citracal (a calcium citrate formulation) and Os-Cal (a calcium carbonate one)

after a single oral dose (500 mg calcium), taken with a meal. By measuring

blood levels of calcium, they demonstrated that calcium citrate is 2.5 times

more bioavailable (easier for your body to use) than calcium carbonate.

[Guest guest]

This is just the carbonate vs. citrate excerpt from my longer post this

evening. Just how much evidence do you need to see to believe it's true for

most people? It may not be true for *you* - no study returns 100%

statistical accuracy. I don't question that your calcium consumption may be

doing the job for you, particularly since there are ways to improve carbonate

absorption. But, I'll always go for the biggest bang for my calcium buck,

since I am in several " at risk " categories for osteoporosis.

Kate

In a message dated 4/26/2003 6:03:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jmarino516@... writes:

> I

> seriously need to know whether something is factual or opinion.

> There are many things that I have read in support group forums that

> are actually inaccurate, but repeated across many groups as fact.

> That being the case, I need to see evidence that truly proves these

> opinions.

>

· <A

HREF= " http://odp.od.nih.gov/consensus/cons/097/097_statement.htm " >http://odp.od.\

nih.gov/consensus/cons/097/097_statement.htm</A>

" Absorption of calcium supplements is most efficient at individual doses of

500 mg or less and when taken between meals. Ingesting calcium supplements

between meals supports calcium bioavailability, since food may contain

certain compounds that reduce calcium absorption (e.g., oxalates). However,

absorption of one form of calcium supplementation, calcium carbonate, is

impaired in fasted individuals who have an absence of gastric acid.

Absorption of calcium carbonate can be improved in these individuals when it

is taken with certain food. The potential for calcium supplementation to

interfere with iron absorption is an important consideration when it is

ingested with meals. Alternatively, calcium supplementation in the form of

calcium citrate does not require gastric acid for optimal absorption and thus

could be considered in older individuals with reduced gastric acid

production. In individuals with adequate gastric acid production, it is

preferable to ingest calcium supplements between meals. "

· <A

HREF= " http://www.calciuminfo.com/prof/3_9.htm " >http://www.calciuminfo.com/prof/3\

_9.htm</A> - has references to 10 different

studies on the issue of carbonate vs. citrate

· In the November, 1999 issue of The Journal of Clinical Pharmacology,

J. Heller, MD and his colleagues compared the calcium absorption of

Citracal (a calcium citrate formulation) and Os-Cal (a calcium carbonate one)

after a single oral dose (500 mg calcium), taken with a meal. By measuring

blood levels of calcium, they demonstrated that calcium citrate is 2.5 times

more bioavailable (easier for your body to use) than calcium carbonate.

[Guest guest]

> One of the things that has been confusing in many of the OSSG on-line

groups is the advice that is given that may or may not be correct. The

calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate and ......

>>>>>

there is medical evidence that citrate is better than carbonate - it is

absorbed much much better in any person - wls or not. that we know.

sue

[Guest guest]

> One of the things that has been confusing in many of the OSSG on-line

groups is the advice that is given that may or may not be correct. The

calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate and ......

>>>>>

there is medical evidence that citrate is better than carbonate - it is

absorbed much much better in any person - wls or not. that we know.

sue

[Guest guest]

I have been trying to find out where I read this information, and haven't come

across it yet. I have seen sites that say orange juice actually helps to absorb

iron, and one that says to take with orange juice to keep from absorbing iron.

So, for now, until I or someone else figures this one out, I wouldn't worry

about the citrus with iron issue. Like I said, I originally read it was in

connection to pineapple juice, but I can't find that now. I have wondered why I

couldn't take the iron with orange juice, but my vit C chewables are made from

orange juice and I am supposed to take them with the iron. I'm as confused on

this one now as anyone else is.

Chrissie

shihtzumom@...

http://users.snip.net/~shihtzumom

My WLS Journey:

http://millennium.fortunecity.com/doddington/691/WLS/this_is_me.htm

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

I have been trying to find out where I read this information, and haven't come

across it yet. I have seen sites that say orange juice actually helps to absorb

iron, and one that says to take with orange juice to keep from absorbing iron.

So, for now, until I or someone else figures this one out, I wouldn't worry

about the citrus with iron issue. Like I said, I originally read it was in

connection to pineapple juice, but I can't find that now. I have wondered why I

couldn't take the iron with orange juice, but my vit C chewables are made from

orange juice and I am supposed to take them with the iron. I'm as confused on

this one now as anyone else is.

Chrissie

shihtzumom@...

http://users.snip.net/~shihtzumom

My WLS Journey:

http://millennium.fortunecity.com/doddington/691/WLS/this_is_me.htm

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

Here is some good info I found on iron. Remember though, that this is written

for " normal " people, not us. Therefore, they are suggesting the use of ferrous

sulfate,which is NOT good for absorption for " us " because we no longer have the

intrinsic factor which was in our old stomachs. Still, the article gives good

info on iron and what to take it with and what not to take it with.

It seems I was incorrect in my comment about not taking iron with juices. More

likely, citrus juices will help to absorb iron better.

I stand corrected.

Chrissie

---------------------------------------

Iron Supplements

Iron supplements are the most effect agents for restoring iron levels but they

should be used only when dietary measures have failed. It should be noted that

they will not correct anemias that are not due to iron deficiency. One study

reported that physicians prescribed iron pills for 64% of patients with anemia

without performing tests to confirm whether iron deficiency was actually the

cause. The study suggested that iron replacement was appropriate in less than

half of these patients. Iron replacement therapy can cause gastrointestinal

problems, sometimes severe ones. Excess iron may also contribute to heart

disease, diabetes, and certain cancers. No one should take iron supplements if

they have a healthy diet and no indications of iron deficiency anemia.

Supplement Forms. To replace iron, the preferred form of iron tablets are

ferrous salts, usually ferrous sulfate (Feosol, Fer-In-Sol, Mol-Iron). Other

forms include ferrous fumarate (Femiron, FerroSequels, Feostat, Fumerin,

Hemocyte, Ircon), ferrous gluconate (Fergon, Ferralet, Simron),

polysaccharide-iron complex (Niferex, Nu-Iron), and carbonyl iron (Elemental

Iron, Feosol Caplet, Ferra-Cap). Specific brands and forms may have certain

advantages. The following are some examples:

a.. Prolonged-release ferrous sulfate (Slow Fe) may enhance iron absorption

with fewer side effects than standard ferrous sulfate pills.

b.. FerroSequels contains a stool softener, which helps prevent constipation.

c.. Polysaccharide-iron complex has fewer side effects than and has equal

absorption rates to ferrous salts. It is very expensive, however.

d.. Carbonyl iron is composed of very fine tiny uniform spheres of iron powder

and may prove to be less toxic than ferrous iron.

e.. Coated or combination pills do not appear to offer any additional

advantages and may hinder absorption of the iron.

Regimen. The general guidelines for iron replacement are as follows:

a.. For adults, physicians usually advise one ferrous sulfate tablet (300 mg)

three times a day.

b.. Iron replacement doses for children with deficiencies are significantly

lower. One study even suggested that children with iron deficiency anemia may do

as well taking iron supplements only three days a week instead of daily. As few

as three adult iron tablets can poison children, even fatally. This includes any

form of iron pill.

No one, even adults, should take a double dose of iron if one is missed.

Other tips for taking iron are as follows:

a.. For best absorption, iron should be taken between meals. (Iron may cause

stomach and intestinal disturbances, however, and some experts believe that low

doses of ferrous sulfate can be taken with food and absorbed without side

effects.)

b.. One should always drink a full eight ounces of fluid with an iron pill.

c.. Tablets should be kept in a cool place. (Bathroom medicine cabinets may be

too warm and humid, which may cause the pills to disintegrate.)

d.. One study suggested that iron supplements impeded the absorption of

non-heme iron (found in legumes and other vegetables) but not heme iron

(contained in meat).

Full recovery takes six to eight weeks. (Recovery will take longer in people

with internal bleeding that is not under control.) Iron replacement therapy must

continue for about six months, even if anemia has been reversed. Treatment must

be continued indefinitely for people with chronic bleeding; in such cases, iron

levels should be closely monitored.

Side Effects. Common side effects of iron supplements include the following:

a.. Constipation and diarrhea are very common. They are rarely severe,

although iron tablets can aggravate existing gastrointestinal problems such as

ulcers and ulcerative colitis.

b.. Nausea and vomiting may occur with high doses, but can be controlled by

taking smaller amounts. Switching to ferrous gluconate may help some people with

severe gastrointestinal problems.

c.. Black stools are normal when taking iron tablets. In fact, if they do not

turn black, the tablets may not be working effectively. This tends to be a more

common problem with coated or long-acting iron tablets.

d.. If the stools are tarry looking as well as black, if they have red

streaks, or if cramps, sharp pains, or soreness in the stomach occur,

gastrointestinal bleeding may be causing the iron deficiency and the patient

should call the physician promptly.

e.. Acute iron poisoning is rare in adults but can be fatal in children who

take adult-strength tablets.

Interactions with Other Drugs. Certain medications, including antacids, can

reduce iron absorption. Iron tablets may also reduce the effectiveness of other

drugs, including the antibiotics tetracycline, penicillamine, and ciprofloxacin

and the anti-Parkinson's Disease drugs methyldopa, levodopa, and carbidopa. At

least two hours should elapse between doses of these drugs and iron supplements.

Supplementary Agents. Adding either ascorbic acid (vitamin C) or succinic acid

to ferrous sulfate therapy will improve absorption of iron stores. Ascorbic acid

added to iron therapy, however, may exacerbate some of the side effects.

Succinic acid added to ferrous sulfate does not appear to increase side effects.

Some studies have found that the addition of zinc to iron supplements increases

hemoglobin levels more than iron alone. One study of pregnant women suggested

that zinc affects a hormone called insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), which

plays a role in the regulation of red blood cell production.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

Here is some good info I found on iron. Remember though, that this is written

for " normal " people, not us. Therefore, they are suggesting the use of ferrous

sulfate,which is NOT good for absorption for " us " because we no longer have the

intrinsic factor which was in our old stomachs. Still, the article gives good

info on iron and what to take it with and what not to take it with.

It seems I was incorrect in my comment about not taking iron with juices. More

likely, citrus juices will help to absorb iron better.

I stand corrected.

Chrissie

---------------------------------------

Iron Supplements

Iron supplements are the most effect agents for restoring iron levels but they

should be used only when dietary measures have failed. It should be noted that

they will not correct anemias that are not due to iron deficiency. One study

reported that physicians prescribed iron pills for 64% of patients with anemia

without performing tests to confirm whether iron deficiency was actually the

cause. The study suggested that iron replacement was appropriate in less than

half of these patients. Iron replacement therapy can cause gastrointestinal

problems, sometimes severe ones. Excess iron may also contribute to heart

disease, diabetes, and certain cancers. No one should take iron supplements if

they have a healthy diet and no indications of iron deficiency anemia.

Supplement Forms. To replace iron, the preferred form of iron tablets are

ferrous salts, usually ferrous sulfate (Feosol, Fer-In-Sol, Mol-Iron). Other

forms include ferrous fumarate (Femiron, FerroSequels, Feostat, Fumerin,

Hemocyte, Ircon), ferrous gluconate (Fergon, Ferralet, Simron),

polysaccharide-iron complex (Niferex, Nu-Iron), and carbonyl iron (Elemental

Iron, Feosol Caplet, Ferra-Cap). Specific brands and forms may have certain

advantages. The following are some examples:

a.. Prolonged-release ferrous sulfate (Slow Fe) may enhance iron absorption

with fewer side effects than standard ferrous sulfate pills.

b.. FerroSequels contains a stool softener, which helps prevent constipation.

c.. Polysaccharide-iron complex has fewer side effects than and has equal

absorption rates to ferrous salts. It is very expensive, however.

d.. Carbonyl iron is composed of very fine tiny uniform spheres of iron powder

and may prove to be less toxic than ferrous iron.

e.. Coated or combination pills do not appear to offer any additional

advantages and may hinder absorption of the iron.

Regimen. The general guidelines for iron replacement are as follows:

a.. For adults, physicians usually advise one ferrous sulfate tablet (300 mg)

three times a day.

b.. Iron replacement doses for children with deficiencies are significantly

lower. One study even suggested that children with iron deficiency anemia may do

as well taking iron supplements only three days a week instead of daily. As few

as three adult iron tablets can poison children, even fatally. This includes any

form of iron pill.

No one, even adults, should take a double dose of iron if one is missed.

Other tips for taking iron are as follows:

a.. For best absorption, iron should be taken between meals. (Iron may cause

stomach and intestinal disturbances, however, and some experts believe that low

doses of ferrous sulfate can be taken with food and absorbed without side

effects.)

b.. One should always drink a full eight ounces of fluid with an iron pill.

c.. Tablets should be kept in a cool place. (Bathroom medicine cabinets may be

too warm and humid, which may cause the pills to disintegrate.)

d.. One study suggested that iron supplements impeded the absorption of

non-heme iron (found in legumes and other vegetables) but not heme iron

(contained in meat).

Full recovery takes six to eight weeks. (Recovery will take longer in people

with internal bleeding that is not under control.) Iron replacement therapy must

continue for about six months, even if anemia has been reversed. Treatment must

be continued indefinitely for people with chronic bleeding; in such cases, iron

levels should be closely monitored.

Side Effects. Common side effects of iron supplements include the following:

a.. Constipation and diarrhea are very common. They are rarely severe,

although iron tablets can aggravate existing gastrointestinal problems such as

ulcers and ulcerative colitis.

b.. Nausea and vomiting may occur with high doses, but can be controlled by

taking smaller amounts. Switching to ferrous gluconate may help some people with

severe gastrointestinal problems.

c.. Black stools are normal when taking iron tablets. In fact, if they do not

turn black, the tablets may not be working effectively. This tends to be a more

common problem with coated or long-acting iron tablets.

d.. If the stools are tarry looking as well as black, if they have red

streaks, or if cramps, sharp pains, or soreness in the stomach occur,

gastrointestinal bleeding may be causing the iron deficiency and the patient

should call the physician promptly.

e.. Acute iron poisoning is rare in adults but can be fatal in children who

take adult-strength tablets.

Interactions with Other Drugs. Certain medications, including antacids, can

reduce iron absorption. Iron tablets may also reduce the effectiveness of other

drugs, including the antibiotics tetracycline, penicillamine, and ciprofloxacin

and the anti-Parkinson's Disease drugs methyldopa, levodopa, and carbidopa. At

least two hours should elapse between doses of these drugs and iron supplements.

Supplementary Agents. Adding either ascorbic acid (vitamin C) or succinic acid

to ferrous sulfate therapy will improve absorption of iron stores. Ascorbic acid

added to iron therapy, however, may exacerbate some of the side effects.

Succinic acid added to ferrous sulfate does not appear to increase side effects.

Some studies have found that the addition of zinc to iron supplements increases

hemoglobin levels more than iron alone. One study of pregnant women suggested

that zinc affects a hormone called insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), which

plays a role in the regulation of red blood cell production.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

Wait a minute, maybe I'll just sit back and be quiet for a while, instead of

trying to look up this information. Intrinsic Factor is what we need to absorb

B-12, not iron, right? But anyway, ferrous FUMERATE,not sulfate is what we

want.

Chrissie

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

Wait a minute, maybe I'll just sit back and be quiet for a while, instead of

trying to look up this information. Intrinsic Factor is what we need to absorb

B-12, not iron, right? But anyway, ferrous FUMERATE,not sulfate is what we

want.

Chrissie

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

Sue:

Please know that I am not being a wise guy here, but that I really

want to know the information. Are there any independent studies that

prove this? Three out of four doctors that I have talked to say no.

Now, I know that the opinion of many is " what do doctors know " , but I

seriously need to know whether something is factual or opinion.

There are many things that I have read in support group forums that

are actually inaccurate, but repeated across many groups as fact.

That being the case, I need to see evidence that truly proves these

opinions.

For the record, I have been using Tums for calcium, use milk, drink

caffeine, and my bones are as dense as ever. I have even been known

to down a carb or two! :-)

God bless,

Joe

<><

>

>

> > One of the things that has been confusing in many of the OSSG on-

line

> groups is the advice that is given that may or may not be

correct. The

> calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate and ......

> >>>>>

>

> there is medical evidence that citrate is better than carbonate -

it is

> absorbed much much better in any person - wls or not. that we know.

>

> sue

[Guest guest]

Sue:

Please know that I am not being a wise guy here, but that I really

want to know the information. Are there any independent studies that

prove this? Three out of four doctors that I have talked to say no.

Now, I know that the opinion of many is " what do doctors know " , but I

seriously need to know whether something is factual or opinion.

There are many things that I have read in support group forums that

are actually inaccurate, but repeated across many groups as fact.

That being the case, I need to see evidence that truly proves these

opinions.

For the record, I have been using Tums for calcium, use milk, drink

caffeine, and my bones are as dense as ever. I have even been known

to down a carb or two! :-)

God bless,

Joe

<><

>

>

> > One of the things that has been confusing in many of the OSSG on-

line

> groups is the advice that is given that may or may not be

correct. The

> calcium carbonate vs. calcium citrate and ......

> >>>>>

>

> there is medical evidence that citrate is better than carbonate -

it is

> absorbed much much better in any person - wls or not. that we know.

>

> sue

[Guest guest]

Hey Chrissie,,,,,

I did get the Iron in at the wee (literal) time of the morning this morning,

but I was to sleep to do the powdered C in OJ,,,,,,so I guess it was a non

issue for me today as I suspect it will be tomorrow,,,,,,,BUT,,,,,,yesteday

I did reach for a jug of crangrape juice sitting on the counter to slug down

a handful of supps,,,,,but caught it in time and glanced at the

label,,,,,,,,40g of carb for one cup! Nawwwwwwww, just did plain ole

water. I was really surprised to realize the carb (no fiber either) content

of one cup, did not glance at sugars, too scary. Juices for me pretty much

are a no no since surgery but the wee bit O OJ with mixed C powder seemed to

make sense, and still does t o me.

Dan Slone

Surgery 5/2/2000

Re: Fumblin In the Middle of the Night

I have been trying to find out where I read this information, and haven't

come across it yet. I have seen sites that say orange juice actually helps

to absorb iron, and one that says to take with orange juice to keep from

absorbing iron.

So, for now, until I or someone else figures this one out, I wouldn't worry

about the citrus with iron issue. Like I said, I originally read it was in

connection to pineapple juice, but I can't find that now. I have wondered

why I couldn't take the iron with orange juice, but my vit C chewables are

made from orange juice and I am supposed to take them with the iron. I'm as

confused on this one now as anyone else is.

Chrissie

shihtzumom@...

http://users.snip.net/~shihtzumom

My WLS Journey:

http://millennium.fortunecity.com/doddington/691/WLS/this_is_me.htm

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Chrissie,,,,,

I did get the Iron in at the wee (literal) time of the morning this morning,

but I was to sleep to do the powdered C in OJ,,,,,,so I guess it was a non

issue for me today as I suspect it will be tomorrow,,,,,,,BUT,,,,,,yesteday

I did reach for a jug of crangrape juice sitting on the counter to slug down

a handful of supps,,,,,but caught it in time and glanced at the

label,,,,,,,,40g of carb for one cup! Nawwwwwwww, just did plain ole

water. I was really surprised to realize the carb (no fiber either) content

of one cup, did not glance at sugars, too scary. Juices for me pretty much

are a no no since surgery but the wee bit O OJ with mixed C powder seemed to

make sense, and still does t o me.

Dan Slone

Surgery 5/2/2000

Re: Fumblin In the Middle of the Night

I have been trying to find out where I read this information, and haven't

come across it yet. I have seen sites that say orange juice actually helps

to absorb iron, and one that says to take with orange juice to keep from

absorbing iron.

So, for now, until I or someone else figures this one out, I wouldn't worry

about the citrus with iron issue. Like I said, I originally read it was in

connection to pineapple juice, but I can't find that now. I have wondered

why I couldn't take the iron with orange juice, but my vit C chewables are

made from orange juice and I am supposed to take them with the iron. I'm as

confused on this one now as anyone else is.

Chrissie

shihtzumom@...

http://users.snip.net/~shihtzumom

My WLS Journey:

http://millennium.fortunecity.com/doddington/691/WLS/this_is_me.htm

Re: Re: calcium and iron

I do know, when I take Cold-Eeze (zinc), it says on the package not to have

any citrus within 1/2 hour of taking it. I just never heard that with iron,

and it doesn't say anything on the paperwork from the pharmacy, but of

course

that doesn't mean it's not so.

in NJ

************************************

In a message dated 4/26/2003 1:41:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

shihtzumom@... writes:

> Well, I heard specifically pineapple and citrus juices, but I avoid all

> juices because I am not sure what the whole list of ones that don't go

with

> iron are. Maybe somebody else on this list can be more specific on this

> one. I do know that iron is very particular, so the least you have with

> it, the better.

>

> Chrissie

>