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In a message dated 2/19/2003 4:28:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lacorona@... writes:

> have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

> getting seasick?

>

> What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

>

>

I have a treadmill at home. My shrink told me that depression is anger

turned inward. He said while I am on the treadmill, I should think or say my

angry thoughts while I am exercising. So everyday I get on the treadmill and

say over and over, I HATE TO EXERCISE.

Fay Bayuk

300/175

10/23/01

Dr

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In a message dated 2/19/2003 4:28:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lacorona@... writes:

> have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

> getting seasick?

>

> What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

>

>

I have a treadmill at home. My shrink told me that depression is anger

turned inward. He said while I am on the treadmill, I should think or say my

angry thoughts while I am exercising. So everyday I get on the treadmill and

say over and over, I HATE TO EXERCISE.

Fay Bayuk

300/175

10/23/01

Dr

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> I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

> getting seasick?

>

> What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

Grit my teeth and work through the pain, mostly.

Exercise is not my buddy, and I wish it could be. I have a hernia the size of my

fist, so anything remotely involving my abs is out. (No insurance, so no fix to

the hernia in the foreseeable future). My knees are arthritic (30 years of 300+

killed the poor things, and even with the weight loss, they still hurt) so I

can't do bicycles of any kind (tried recumbent -- back felt better, knees still

screamed.) So the treadmill is about it for exercise for me, when I can work up

the nerve to endure the pain. And I do mean pain. Half an hour on the treadmill

puts me in bed for two hours after, and I can ALMOST get to sleep with Tylenol

PM. Add to that the bunion on my left foot, and I can't find a pair of walking

shoes that fit around it properly, so while the treadmill is my exercise of

choice, it's still hard to talk myself into really doing it, because I know that

it's going to be so hard on my poor joints and my aching feet. I tried water

exercise, but it kills the knees so I don't get much benefit from it.

I want to exercise so badly. I had the weight loss surgery, in part, so I COULD

exercise, because dieting alone didn't work when no movement was involved. I

know it would be easier to get the rest of the weight off if I could kick up my

metabolism a notch or two with good exercise. But I haven't been able to find

anything that doesn't hurt one part of my body or another.

I've gotta get back to the torture of the treadmill, though. The re-gain isn't

going anywhere if I don't get some exercise. I'm lo-carbing, doing my protein,

doing my water, and staying the same.

On the plus side, where I park for my new job is a 2-block walk from the job

itself, so I get that much in twice a day, four time if I leave at lunch time.

Better than nothing, but certainly not where I want to be.

Man, I bet you didn't expect a full chapter when you asked " what to you do on

the treadmill? " <grin>

~~ Lyn G (knees still hurting from the walk back after lunch 2 hours ago)

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> I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

> getting seasick?

>

> What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

Grit my teeth and work through the pain, mostly.

Exercise is not my buddy, and I wish it could be. I have a hernia the size of my

fist, so anything remotely involving my abs is out. (No insurance, so no fix to

the hernia in the foreseeable future). My knees are arthritic (30 years of 300+

killed the poor things, and even with the weight loss, they still hurt) so I

can't do bicycles of any kind (tried recumbent -- back felt better, knees still

screamed.) So the treadmill is about it for exercise for me, when I can work up

the nerve to endure the pain. And I do mean pain. Half an hour on the treadmill

puts me in bed for two hours after, and I can ALMOST get to sleep with Tylenol

PM. Add to that the bunion on my left foot, and I can't find a pair of walking

shoes that fit around it properly, so while the treadmill is my exercise of

choice, it's still hard to talk myself into really doing it, because I know that

it's going to be so hard on my poor joints and my aching feet. I tried water

exercise, but it kills the knees so I don't get much benefit from it.

I want to exercise so badly. I had the weight loss surgery, in part, so I COULD

exercise, because dieting alone didn't work when no movement was involved. I

know it would be easier to get the rest of the weight off if I could kick up my

metabolism a notch or two with good exercise. But I haven't been able to find

anything that doesn't hurt one part of my body or another.

I've gotta get back to the torture of the treadmill, though. The re-gain isn't

going anywhere if I don't get some exercise. I'm lo-carbing, doing my protein,

doing my water, and staying the same.

On the plus side, where I park for my new job is a 2-block walk from the job

itself, so I get that much in twice a day, four time if I leave at lunch time.

Better than nothing, but certainly not where I want to be.

Man, I bet you didn't expect a full chapter when you asked " what to you do on

the treadmill? " <grin>

~~ Lyn G (knees still hurting from the walk back after lunch 2 hours ago)

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I read a great idea in a book for marathon training regarding bunions...if

you have a bunion, instead of trying to find a shoe that will fit and not

hurt it, just cut a hole in the shoe around the bunion and let it poke out.

I know, I know, no one wants to cut a hole in a brand new pair of $100

running shoes, but hey...if it means you can wear them without pain, why

not??

KC

<<Add to that the bunion on my left foot, and I can't find a pair of walking

shoes that fit around it properly, so while the treadmill is my exercise of

choice, it's still hard to talk myself into really doing it,>>

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I read a great idea in a book for marathon training regarding bunions...if

you have a bunion, instead of trying to find a shoe that will fit and not

hurt it, just cut a hole in the shoe around the bunion and let it poke out.

I know, I know, no one wants to cut a hole in a brand new pair of $100

running shoes, but hey...if it means you can wear them without pain, why

not??

KC

<<Add to that the bunion on my left foot, and I can't find a pair of walking

shoes that fit around it properly, so while the treadmill is my exercise of

choice, it's still hard to talk myself into really doing it,>>

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Exercise should not be painful. Certainly as muscle groups get worked you

should expect soreness which is the way the muscles build up. Have you tried

weight or resistance training? By building muscle, you make your body more

aerobic and that helps burn calories (energy) even when you are not exercising.

I too have bad knees, in fact there is osteoarthritis in one and the other can

be just painful. Even so, I have found that I can do aerobic workouts and

weight training. I avoid anything with deep knee movements like bikes,

stairmasters, lunges, etc. By losing the excess weight, that has helped the

load on my knees. I also started taking glucosumine/chondroitin and that has

helped alot. Also, with the aid of some really great running shoes, I have

started training for a 5K run. I started very slowly with a run/walk routine

and am building up. I hope to running the whole 5K when the event happens in

September. Exercise is not always necessarily fun but it shouldn't be painful.

Re: what do you do while on treadmill

> I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without >

getting seasick?

>

> What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

Grit my teeth and work through the pain, mostly.

Exercise is not my buddy, and I wish it could be. I have a hernia the size of my

fist, so anything remotely involving my abs is out. (No insurance, so no fix to

the hernia in the foreseeable future). My knees are arthritic (30 years of 300+

killed the poor things, and even with the weight loss, they still hurt) so I

can't do bicycles of any kind (tried recumbent -- back felt better, knees still

screamed.) So the treadmill is about it for exercise for me, when I can work up

the nerve to endure the pain. And I do mean pain. Half an hour on the treadmill

puts me in bed for two hours after, and I can ALMOST get to sleep with Tylenol

PM. Add to that the bunion on my left foot, and I can't find a pair of walking

shoes that fit around it properly, so while the treadmill is my exercise of

choice, it's still hard to talk myself into really doing it, because I know that

it's going to be so hard on my poor joints and my aching feet. I tried water

exercise, but it kills the knees so I don't get much benefit from it.

I want to exercise so badly. I had the weight loss surgery, in part, so I COULD

exercise, because dieting alone didn't work when no movement was involved. I

know it would be easier to get the rest of the weight off if I could kick up my

metabolism a notch or two with good exercise. But I haven't been able to find

anything that doesn't hurt one part of my body or another.

I've gotta get back to the torture of the treadmill, though. The re-gain isn't

going anywhere if I don't get some exercise. I'm lo-carbing, doing my protein,

doing my water, and staying the same.

On the plus side, where I park for my new job is a 2-block walk from the job

itself, so I get that much in twice a day, four time if I leave at lunch time.

Better than nothing, but certainly not where I want to be.

Man, I bet you didn't expect a full chapter when you asked " what to you do on

the treadmill? " <grin>

~~ Lyn G (knees still hurting from the walk back after lunch 2 hours ago)

Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

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Exercise should not be painful. Certainly as muscle groups get worked you

should expect soreness which is the way the muscles build up. Have you tried

weight or resistance training? By building muscle, you make your body more

aerobic and that helps burn calories (energy) even when you are not exercising.

I too have bad knees, in fact there is osteoarthritis in one and the other can

be just painful. Even so, I have found that I can do aerobic workouts and

weight training. I avoid anything with deep knee movements like bikes,

stairmasters, lunges, etc. By losing the excess weight, that has helped the

load on my knees. I also started taking glucosumine/chondroitin and that has

helped alot. Also, with the aid of some really great running shoes, I have

started training for a 5K run. I started very slowly with a run/walk routine

and am building up. I hope to running the whole 5K when the event happens in

September. Exercise is not always necessarily fun but it shouldn't be painful.

Re: what do you do while on treadmill

> I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without >

getting seasick?

>

> What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

Grit my teeth and work through the pain, mostly.

Exercise is not my buddy, and I wish it could be. I have a hernia the size of my

fist, so anything remotely involving my abs is out. (No insurance, so no fix to

the hernia in the foreseeable future). My knees are arthritic (30 years of 300+

killed the poor things, and even with the weight loss, they still hurt) so I

can't do bicycles of any kind (tried recumbent -- back felt better, knees still

screamed.) So the treadmill is about it for exercise for me, when I can work up

the nerve to endure the pain. And I do mean pain. Half an hour on the treadmill

puts me in bed for two hours after, and I can ALMOST get to sleep with Tylenol

PM. Add to that the bunion on my left foot, and I can't find a pair of walking

shoes that fit around it properly, so while the treadmill is my exercise of

choice, it's still hard to talk myself into really doing it, because I know that

it's going to be so hard on my poor joints and my aching feet. I tried water

exercise, but it kills the knees so I don't get much benefit from it.

I want to exercise so badly. I had the weight loss surgery, in part, so I COULD

exercise, because dieting alone didn't work when no movement was involved. I

know it would be easier to get the rest of the weight off if I could kick up my

metabolism a notch or two with good exercise. But I haven't been able to find

anything that doesn't hurt one part of my body or another.

I've gotta get back to the torture of the treadmill, though. The re-gain isn't

going anywhere if I don't get some exercise. I'm lo-carbing, doing my protein,

doing my water, and staying the same.

On the plus side, where I park for my new job is a 2-block walk from the job

itself, so I get that much in twice a day, four time if I leave at lunch time.

Better than nothing, but certainly not where I want to be.

Man, I bet you didn't expect a full chapter when you asked " what to you do on

the treadmill? " <grin>

~~ Lyn G (knees still hurting from the walk back after lunch 2 hours ago)

Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

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In a message dated 2/19/03 4:55:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

fbayuk@... writes:

> > What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

>

I watch TV. Fashion Emergency, usually. It's one of those guilty pleasures I

only allow myself to watch while on the treadmill.

hugs,

Ann

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In a message dated 2/19/03 4:55:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

fbayuk@... writes:

> > What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

>

I watch TV. Fashion Emergency, usually. It's one of those guilty pleasures I

only allow myself to watch while on the treadmill.

hugs,

Ann

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> Exercise should not be painful. Certainly as muscle groups get worked you

should expect soreness which is the way the muscles build up. Have you tried

weight or resistance training? By building muscle, you make your body more

aerobic and that helps burn calories (energy) even when you are not exercising.

Weight training and resistance training in general involve using the muscles I

can't use because of the hernia. I cannot lift anything over 10 pounds, and

that's pushing it. I simply can't afford to make the hernia one bit worse than

it is, as I am the only thing standing between my kids and homelessness. An

emergency hospital stay would put us on the streets. (I don't cough, ever --

it's that bad. If I know I am going to sneeze I grab my belly and pray).

Glucosamine/chondroitin is something I look forward to when I can afford it.

right now my protein and vitamins take all the extra budget I have.

I expected that when I started walking the treadmill, it would hurt, but it

would get better with time. I did 4 days a week for a month, and there was no

improvement in the pain. It was just pure torture. So of course the first day I

had an excuse to miss, I did, and unfortunately I haven't gone back. I know I'm

being a coward, and I know how badly I need the exercise, but it's so hard to

face the front door of the gym, knowing that when I come out I will be in tears,

and totally unable to do anything more than drive home and collapse. People at

the gym have seen me crying through treadmill time and thought I was loony, I'm

sure.

I look forward to the better weather, as I will be able to do my walking outside

again. It won't make the pain any better, but at least it won't be in front of a

gym full of people in better shape than me. (I work out, when I do, at Navy

facility because it's free for me.)

Sigh -- exercise is the one thing I so want to do, and can't. Someday, I hope.

~~ Lyn G

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> Exercise should not be painful. Certainly as muscle groups get worked you

should expect soreness which is the way the muscles build up. Have you tried

weight or resistance training? By building muscle, you make your body more

aerobic and that helps burn calories (energy) even when you are not exercising.

Weight training and resistance training in general involve using the muscles I

can't use because of the hernia. I cannot lift anything over 10 pounds, and

that's pushing it. I simply can't afford to make the hernia one bit worse than

it is, as I am the only thing standing between my kids and homelessness. An

emergency hospital stay would put us on the streets. (I don't cough, ever --

it's that bad. If I know I am going to sneeze I grab my belly and pray).

Glucosamine/chondroitin is something I look forward to when I can afford it.

right now my protein and vitamins take all the extra budget I have.

I expected that when I started walking the treadmill, it would hurt, but it

would get better with time. I did 4 days a week for a month, and there was no

improvement in the pain. It was just pure torture. So of course the first day I

had an excuse to miss, I did, and unfortunately I haven't gone back. I know I'm

being a coward, and I know how badly I need the exercise, but it's so hard to

face the front door of the gym, knowing that when I come out I will be in tears,

and totally unable to do anything more than drive home and collapse. People at

the gym have seen me crying through treadmill time and thought I was loony, I'm

sure.

I look forward to the better weather, as I will be able to do my walking outside

again. It won't make the pain any better, but at least it won't be in front of a

gym full of people in better shape than me. (I work out, when I do, at Navy

facility because it's free for me.)

Sigh -- exercise is the one thing I so want to do, and can't. Someday, I hope.

~~ Lyn G

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> I know, I know, no one wants to cut a hole in a brand new pair of $100

> running shoes, but hey...if it means you can wear them without pain, why

> not??

Not a bad idea, but who has $100 running shoes? <grin>

~~ Lyn G

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> I know, I know, no one wants to cut a hole in a brand new pair of $100

> running shoes, but hey...if it means you can wear them without pain, why

> not??

Not a bad idea, but who has $100 running shoes? <grin>

~~ Lyn G

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I do my lottery dreaming on the elliptical. You know, making lists of

all the nice people you'd give money to so they could do their dream

projects (ceep, you're on my list, darlin'), thinking about the view

home I'd buy, arguing with myself over the environmental disaster level

I'm willing to tolerate in my new plush car, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Or I fantasize about my sweetie and all the nice things we can do

together, carnal and otherwise.

Or I watch CNN in silence and try to make up funny dialogue for the

people speaking. Sometimes I laugh out loud when Bush is on the screen,

if you can't hear what he's saying, he often looks so STUPID and

BEWILDERED. :-)

Ziobro

Open RNY 09/17/01

310/126

what do you do while on treadmill

I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

getting seasick?

What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

love,

ceep

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I do my lottery dreaming on the elliptical. You know, making lists of

all the nice people you'd give money to so they could do their dream

projects (ceep, you're on my list, darlin'), thinking about the view

home I'd buy, arguing with myself over the environmental disaster level

I'm willing to tolerate in my new plush car, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Or I fantasize about my sweetie and all the nice things we can do

together, carnal and otherwise.

Or I watch CNN in silence and try to make up funny dialogue for the

people speaking. Sometimes I laugh out loud when Bush is on the screen,

if you can't hear what he's saying, he often looks so STUPID and

BEWILDERED. :-)

Ziobro

Open RNY 09/17/01

310/126

what do you do while on treadmill

I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

getting seasick?

What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

love,

ceep

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Lyn........is it possible to do " upper body " strength training? It might

still help to build a little muscle even though it isn't near the size of

the leg muscles. I have thought about this because I am once again waiting

to hear about thigh surgery. I am very distraught at the idea of not being

able to work out again. I too suffer from horrible pain when I work

out.....it is very hard to get the energy and desire to work out when you

know the pain it is going to cause. I have just " finally " gotten back into

the routine (two weeks) P.

Re: what do you do while on treadmill

> > I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

> > getting seasick?

> >

> > What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

>

> Grit my teeth and work through the pain, mostly.

>

> Exercise is not my buddy, and I wish it could be. I have a hernia the size

of my fist, so anything remotely involving my abs is out. (No insurance, so

no fix to the hernia in the foreseeable future). My knees are arthritic (30

years of 300+ killed the poor things, and even with the weight loss, they

still hurt) so I can't do bicycles of any kind (tried recumbent -- back felt

better, knees still screamed.) So the treadmill is about it for exercise for

me, when I can work up the nerve to endure the pain. And I do mean pain.

Half an hour on the treadmill puts me in bed for two hours after, and I can

ALMOST get to sleep with Tylenol PM. Add to that the bunion on my left foot,

and I can't find a pair of walking shoes that fit around it properly, so

while the treadmill is my exercise of choice, it's still hard to talk myself

into really doing it, because I know that it's going to be so hard on my

poor joints and my aching feet. I tried water exercise, but it kills the

knees so I don't get much benefit from it.

>

> I want to exercise so badly. I had the weight loss surgery, in part, so I

COULD exercise, because dieting alone didn't work when no movement was

involved. I know it would be easier to get the rest of the weight off if I

could kick up my metabolism a notch or two with good exercise. But I haven't

been able to find anything that doesn't hurt one part of my body or another.

>

> I've gotta get back to the torture of the treadmill, though. The re-gain

isn't going anywhere if I don't get some exercise. I'm lo-carbing, doing my

protein, doing my water, and staying the same.

>

> On the plus side, where I park for my new job is a 2-block walk from the

job itself, so I get that much in twice a day, four time if I leave at lunch

time. Better than nothing, but certainly not where I want to be.

>

> Man, I bet you didn't expect a full chapter when you asked " what to you do

on the treadmill? " <grin>

>

> ~~ Lyn G (knees still hurting from the walk back after lunch 2 hours ago)

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

>

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Lyn........is it possible to do " upper body " strength training? It might

still help to build a little muscle even though it isn't near the size of

the leg muscles. I have thought about this because I am once again waiting

to hear about thigh surgery. I am very distraught at the idea of not being

able to work out again. I too suffer from horrible pain when I work

out.....it is very hard to get the energy and desire to work out when you

know the pain it is going to cause. I have just " finally " gotten back into

the routine (two weeks) P.

Re: what do you do while on treadmill

> > I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

> > getting seasick?

> >

> > What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

>

> Grit my teeth and work through the pain, mostly.

>

> Exercise is not my buddy, and I wish it could be. I have a hernia the size

of my fist, so anything remotely involving my abs is out. (No insurance, so

no fix to the hernia in the foreseeable future). My knees are arthritic (30

years of 300+ killed the poor things, and even with the weight loss, they

still hurt) so I can't do bicycles of any kind (tried recumbent -- back felt

better, knees still screamed.) So the treadmill is about it for exercise for

me, when I can work up the nerve to endure the pain. And I do mean pain.

Half an hour on the treadmill puts me in bed for two hours after, and I can

ALMOST get to sleep with Tylenol PM. Add to that the bunion on my left foot,

and I can't find a pair of walking shoes that fit around it properly, so

while the treadmill is my exercise of choice, it's still hard to talk myself

into really doing it, because I know that it's going to be so hard on my

poor joints and my aching feet. I tried water exercise, but it kills the

knees so I don't get much benefit from it.

>

> I want to exercise so badly. I had the weight loss surgery, in part, so I

COULD exercise, because dieting alone didn't work when no movement was

involved. I know it would be easier to get the rest of the weight off if I

could kick up my metabolism a notch or two with good exercise. But I haven't

been able to find anything that doesn't hurt one part of my body or another.

>

> I've gotta get back to the torture of the treadmill, though. The re-gain

isn't going anywhere if I don't get some exercise. I'm lo-carbing, doing my

protein, doing my water, and staying the same.

>

> On the plus side, where I park for my new job is a 2-block walk from the

job itself, so I get that much in twice a day, four time if I leave at lunch

time. Better than nothing, but certainly not where I want to be.

>

> Man, I bet you didn't expect a full chapter when you asked " what to you do

on the treadmill? " <grin>

>

> ~~ Lyn G (knees still hurting from the walk back after lunch 2 hours ago)

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

>

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I listen to books-on-CD. I get really juicy ones that I wouldn't spend

the time to read. Then I only listen while I'm on the treadmill. The

library has a large selection so it's free.

what do you do while on treadmill

I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

getting seasick?

What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

love,

ceep

Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

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I listen to books-on-CD. I get really juicy ones that I wouldn't spend

the time to read. Then I only listen while I'm on the treadmill. The

library has a large selection so it's free.

what do you do while on treadmill

I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible without

getting seasick?

What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

love,

ceep

Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

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WHen I dont get to the healthclub I use my " treadmill from Hell " at

home. It has all these presets and you clip yourself in and off you

go up and down the hill! (This thing CAN be bad for your health! lol)

I do read on the treadmill with no problems and I have done books on

tape also. There is nothing better then having your treadmill

parked in front of a TV with a tape or DVD player. I often rent a

movie and watch half one day and the other half the next day. I

only allow myself to watch it while on the treadmill.

Hugs,

Carol G

> I listen to books-on-CD. I get really juicy ones that I wouldn't

spend

> the time to read. Then I only listen while I'm on the treadmill.

The

> library has a large selection so it's free.

>

> what do you do while on treadmill

>

>

> I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible

without

> getting seasick?

>

> What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

>

> love,

> ceep

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

>

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WHen I dont get to the healthclub I use my " treadmill from Hell " at

home. It has all these presets and you clip yourself in and off you

go up and down the hill! (This thing CAN be bad for your health! lol)

I do read on the treadmill with no problems and I have done books on

tape also. There is nothing better then having your treadmill

parked in front of a TV with a tape or DVD player. I often rent a

movie and watch half one day and the other half the next day. I

only allow myself to watch it while on the treadmill.

Hugs,

Carol G

> I listen to books-on-CD. I get really juicy ones that I wouldn't

spend

> the time to read. Then I only listen while I'm on the treadmill.

The

> library has a large selection so it's free.

>

> what do you do while on treadmill

>

>

> I have seen people READING while on treadmill. Is this possible

without

> getting seasick?

>

> What else do you guys do while on treadmill?

>

> love,

> ceep

>

> Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

>

> Unsubscribe: mailto:Graduate-OSSG-unsubscribe

>

>

>

>

>

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