Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 In a message dated 3/9/03 1:18:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, brzezinski4@... writes: > Hi Everyone, > > Im kinda mad maybe hurt, My mother-in-law (MIL) for the first 10 years of > my marriage nevered really liked me, and i always thought it was just a > personallity clash , I mean she was straight out hurtfull and i would put > up with her crap for the most part( except the one time i did make her > leave my house). Every nasty thing she ever said about me was got back to > me, she is that type never say it your face. Well now in the last 6 or so > months now that i have lost all my weight she is sweet as pie to me and she > is always telling people nice things about me. Strange i think, But i have > thinking alot about this- i think she is prejudust against heavey people. > And the reason i think this - is she has made a few coments about heavy > people , im sure you all know the comments i mean- but the one that got me > was when she said she is not going to have the same doctor anymore because > he is over weight and she feels he has know right to tells her about being > heathy if he cant control his own weight. He is not FAT in my opinion just > a little heathy. Sorry to ramble on- Just had to vent a little here. > > Tara it is interesting (sad also) in how many ways prejudice can create such aggressively mean behaviour.... this must have been so hurtful for you....but may i ask, did your husband protect you ? from my point of view, your mother-in-law is rather shallow , but also fast dancing away from her own demons why else would she be so harsh to you.......i do wonder if she has/had self image problems and she shoved them on you... hang in there.... the storm is over.... the best is yet to come... bye for now, jilly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 In a message dated 3/9/03 1:18:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, brzezinski4@... writes: > Hi Everyone, > > Im kinda mad maybe hurt, My mother-in-law (MIL) for the first 10 years of > my marriage nevered really liked me, and i always thought it was just a > personallity clash , I mean she was straight out hurtfull and i would put > up with her crap for the most part( except the one time i did make her > leave my house). Every nasty thing she ever said about me was got back to > me, she is that type never say it your face. Well now in the last 6 or so > months now that i have lost all my weight she is sweet as pie to me and she > is always telling people nice things about me. Strange i think, But i have > thinking alot about this- i think she is prejudust against heavey people. > And the reason i think this - is she has made a few coments about heavy > people , im sure you all know the comments i mean- but the one that got me > was when she said she is not going to have the same doctor anymore because > he is over weight and she feels he has know right to tells her about being > heathy if he cant control his own weight. He is not FAT in my opinion just > a little heathy. Sorry to ramble on- Just had to vent a little here. > > Tara it is interesting (sad also) in how many ways prejudice can create such aggressively mean behaviour.... this must have been so hurtful for you....but may i ask, did your husband protect you ? from my point of view, your mother-in-law is rather shallow , but also fast dancing away from her own demons why else would she be so harsh to you.......i do wonder if she has/had self image problems and she shoved them on you... hang in there.... the storm is over.... the best is yet to come... bye for now, jilly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Tara, There is no way to control how other people think and behave. Getting upset, while usually unavoidable to some point, is self- defeating if it goes on too long within you. Holding a resentment against someone and ruining your peace of mind is like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to die. Whenever someone acts like a jerk, I just remind myself that I am so very grateful I don't have to live in their head. Think how miserable it must be in there! I feel sorry for them being so toxic. Meanwhile, I'm happy where I am. Lucky me. Vicki A. > In a message dated 3/9/03 1:18:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, > brzezinski4@y... writes: > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Im kinda mad maybe hurt, My mother-in-law (MIL) for the first 10 years of > > my marriage nevered really liked me, and i always thought it was just a > > personallity clash , I mean she was straight out hurtfull and i would put > > up with her crap for the most part( except the one time i did make her > > leave my house). Every nasty thing she ever said about me was got back to > > me, she is that type never say it your face. Well now in the last 6 or so > > months now that i have lost all my weight she is sweet as pie to me and she > > is always telling people nice things about me. Strange i think, But i have > > thinking alot about this- i think she is prejudust against heavey people. > > And the reason i think this - is she has made a few coments about heavy > > people , im sure you all know the comments i mean- but the one that got me > > was when she said she is not going to have the same doctor anymore because > > he is over weight and she feels he has know right to tells her about being > > heathy if he cant control his own weight. He is not FAT in my opinion just > > a little heathy. Sorry to ramble on- Just had to vent a little here. > > > > Tara > > it is interesting (sad also) in how many ways prejudice can > create such aggressively mean behaviour.... this must have been so hurtful > for you....but may i ask, did your husband protect you ? > > from my point of view, your mother-in-law is rather shallow > , but also fast dancing away from her own demons why else would she be so > harsh to you.......i do wonder if she has/had self image problems and she > shoved them on you... > > hang in there.... the storm is over.... the best is yet to > come... > > bye for now, > > jilly > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Tara, There is no way to control how other people think and behave. Getting upset, while usually unavoidable to some point, is self- defeating if it goes on too long within you. Holding a resentment against someone and ruining your peace of mind is like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to die. Whenever someone acts like a jerk, I just remind myself that I am so very grateful I don't have to live in their head. Think how miserable it must be in there! I feel sorry for them being so toxic. Meanwhile, I'm happy where I am. Lucky me. Vicki A. > In a message dated 3/9/03 1:18:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, > brzezinski4@y... writes: > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Im kinda mad maybe hurt, My mother-in-law (MIL) for the first 10 years of > > my marriage nevered really liked me, and i always thought it was just a > > personallity clash , I mean she was straight out hurtfull and i would put > > up with her crap for the most part( except the one time i did make her > > leave my house). Every nasty thing she ever said about me was got back to > > me, she is that type never say it your face. Well now in the last 6 or so > > months now that i have lost all my weight she is sweet as pie to me and she > > is always telling people nice things about me. Strange i think, But i have > > thinking alot about this- i think she is prejudust against heavey people. > > And the reason i think this - is she has made a few coments about heavy > > people , im sure you all know the comments i mean- but the one that got me > > was when she said she is not going to have the same doctor anymore because > > he is over weight and she feels he has know right to tells her about being > > heathy if he cant control his own weight. He is not FAT in my opinion just > > a little heathy. Sorry to ramble on- Just had to vent a little here. > > > > Tara > > it is interesting (sad also) in how many ways prejudice can > create such aggressively mean behaviour.... this must have been so hurtful > for you....but may i ask, did your husband protect you ? > > from my point of view, your mother-in-law is rather shallow > , but also fast dancing away from her own demons why else would she be so > harsh to you.......i do wonder if she has/had self image problems and she > shoved them on you... > > hang in there.... the storm is over.... the best is yet to > come... > > bye for now, > > jilly > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 I sincerely do feel that I pass as normal now. I'm not fat now. You'd never know I was ever overweight by looking at me. I treasure it as a blessing and hope it doesn't go away. I'm happy about it. Saying that I feel people who are obese are more fragile and in danger is a feeling I have based upon experience. I feel badly and I'm scared that something bad or untimely is going to happen. It is most definitely not a judgment and I resent your judging me..... " I'm sorry you're in that place. " Whatever. in Austin RNY April 1998 Re: Kinda Mad > In a message dated 3/9/2003 2:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, > YahooDave@... writes: > > > I also believe that people are sometimes > > afraid of fat people. I know I kind of am. I feel they're more fragile, > > and in some kind of danger. > > > > Anyway, I noticed people being nice to me who hadn't before, and I just > > decided to accept it as a good thing. > > Unless I am misreading you, I have been known to do that, you seem to feel > that you are now passing for normal. I see you making judgments (they are > more fragile), about people by their size. I am pleased that you are being > honest about your feelings and am sad that you are in that place. It happens > all the time when people feel they have finally arrived, whether their > problem was size, color, race religion, poverty, education level. > > I just hope this does not happen to me. > > Fay Bayuk > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 I sincerely do feel that I pass as normal now. I'm not fat now. You'd never know I was ever overweight by looking at me. I treasure it as a blessing and hope it doesn't go away. I'm happy about it. Saying that I feel people who are obese are more fragile and in danger is a feeling I have based upon experience. I feel badly and I'm scared that something bad or untimely is going to happen. It is most definitely not a judgment and I resent your judging me..... " I'm sorry you're in that place. " Whatever. in Austin RNY April 1998 Re: Kinda Mad > In a message dated 3/9/2003 2:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, > YahooDave@... writes: > > > I also believe that people are sometimes > > afraid of fat people. I know I kind of am. I feel they're more fragile, > > and in some kind of danger. > > > > Anyway, I noticed people being nice to me who hadn't before, and I just > > decided to accept it as a good thing. > > Unless I am misreading you, I have been known to do that, you seem to feel > that you are now passing for normal. I see you making judgments (they are > more fragile), about people by their size. I am pleased that you are being > honest about your feelings and am sad that you are in that place. It happens > all the time when people feel they have finally arrived, whether their > problem was size, color, race religion, poverty, education level. > > I just hope this does not happen to me. > > Fay Bayuk > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 My Ex-M-I-L...she was one of THOSE. Told me that I would NEVER be an Officer's wife (ex-husband was applying for officer programs in the Navy) if I was FAT! I wanted to give her the raspberry when he was commissioned!!! And there I was... A FAT Officers wife. An you know? I wasn't alone. She was constantly on me about my weight. Ridiculing me...accusing me of being an awful mother and a lousy wife. Well, just before she died she admitted that she wished she could have been as optimistic and cheerful as I was. I just told her it wasn't something that ALWAYS came naturally. That sometimes I really had to work at it. Debbie in Gig Harbor ladybostons@... http://www.cafeshops.com/copsstore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 My Ex-M-I-L...she was one of THOSE. Told me that I would NEVER be an Officer's wife (ex-husband was applying for officer programs in the Navy) if I was FAT! I wanted to give her the raspberry when he was commissioned!!! And there I was... A FAT Officers wife. An you know? I wasn't alone. She was constantly on me about my weight. Ridiculing me...accusing me of being an awful mother and a lousy wife. Well, just before she died she admitted that she wished she could have been as optimistic and cheerful as I was. I just told her it wasn't something that ALWAYS came naturally. That sometimes I really had to work at it. Debbie in Gig Harbor ladybostons@... http://www.cafeshops.com/copsstore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 It happens > all the time when people feel they have finally arrived, whether their > problem was size, color, race religion, poverty, education level. I have the " opposite " problem. A couple of weeks ago (when the friend's sister died of WLS) we were discussing it in a group one night. They were asking the difference between LAP and OPEN. I was explaining that LAP is usually only done on the smaller (under 300) lb people and that the instruments just aren't long enough for the larger WLS patients. One the way home my hubby chastised me and said that he was embarrassed that I was talking like that in front of our over 300 lb friend. I was floored........he doesn't realize that I STILL include myself in that category.......I am still one of the obese ones. I may not look like it sitting there...........but I was including myself in those ranks................ Re: Kinda Mad > In a message dated 3/9/2003 2:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, > YahooDave@... writes: > > > I also believe that people are sometimes > > afraid of fat people. I know I kind of am. I feel they're more fragile, > > and in some kind of danger. > > > > Anyway, I noticed people being nice to me who hadn't before, and I just > > decided to accept it as a good thing. > > Unless I am misreading you, I have been known to do that, you seem to feel > that you are now passing for normal. I see you making judgments (they are > more fragile), about people by their size. I am pleased that you are being > honest about your feelings and am sad that you are in that place. It happens > all the time when people feel they have finally arrived, whether their > problem was size, color, race religion, poverty, education level. > > I just hope this does not happen to me. > > Fay Bayuk > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 It happens > all the time when people feel they have finally arrived, whether their > problem was size, color, race religion, poverty, education level. I have the " opposite " problem. A couple of weeks ago (when the friend's sister died of WLS) we were discussing it in a group one night. They were asking the difference between LAP and OPEN. I was explaining that LAP is usually only done on the smaller (under 300) lb people and that the instruments just aren't long enough for the larger WLS patients. One the way home my hubby chastised me and said that he was embarrassed that I was talking like that in front of our over 300 lb friend. I was floored........he doesn't realize that I STILL include myself in that category.......I am still one of the obese ones. I may not look like it sitting there...........but I was including myself in those ranks................ Re: Kinda Mad > In a message dated 3/9/2003 2:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, > YahooDave@... writes: > > > I also believe that people are sometimes > > afraid of fat people. I know I kind of am. I feel they're more fragile, > > and in some kind of danger. > > > > Anyway, I noticed people being nice to me who hadn't before, and I just > > decided to accept it as a good thing. > > Unless I am misreading you, I have been known to do that, you seem to feel > that you are now passing for normal. I see you making judgments (they are > more fragile), about people by their size. I am pleased that you are being > honest about your feelings and am sad that you are in that place. It happens > all the time when people feel they have finally arrived, whether their > problem was size, color, race religion, poverty, education level. > > I just hope this does not happen to me. > > Fay Bayuk > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Hi , I am doing the same thing against my mother. My therapist says when I eat what I shouldn't and call myself names, I'm treating myself the way my mother always did (whom I have no relationship whatsoever with now). Very toxic and at this point only we are only hurting ourselves, not them. Even knowing that it sure is hard to rid ourselves of the feelings isn't it. I am in awe of those who are able to do this and can only keep working on achieving this myself. We have already won when we believe it in our hearts. ICQ: 67869779 AIM: joydenisek > Wow, I'm holding such anger and resentment toward my sister-in-law right now. It's toxic, and it's eating me up alive. I envy your healthy attitude. How do you let go of the GRRRRR!!! feeling? Besides shoving food in my face, that is? Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Another Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Hi , I am doing the same thing against my mother. My therapist says when I eat what I shouldn't and call myself names, I'm treating myself the way my mother always did (whom I have no relationship whatsoever with now). Very toxic and at this point only we are only hurting ourselves, not them. Even knowing that it sure is hard to rid ourselves of the feelings isn't it. I am in awe of those who are able to do this and can only keep working on achieving this myself. We have already won when we believe it in our hearts. ICQ: 67869779 AIM: joydenisek > Wow, I'm holding such anger and resentment toward my sister-in-law right now. It's toxic, and it's eating me up alive. I envy your healthy attitude. How do you let go of the GRRRRR!!! feeling? Besides shoving food in my face, that is? Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Another Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 No Fay, I notice what everyone eats right now because I'm trying to get a grip on portion control. The " normal' people did not heap their plates. In fact, I am surprised to see that normal size people often eat what I would consider to be a diet. No wonder they aren't fat! My normal friends think that's the regular way to eat and they do it unconciously...they aren't trying to eat on a diet. My perception of what my body needs in the way of fuel is definitely evolving. vicki A. > In a message dated 3/10/2003 11:33:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, vickiang@y... writes: > > > I was apalled > > at the buffet by the tremendous amounts of food they would heap on > > their plates...enough easily for 5 people, and yet some of them could > > barely walk and definitely could not fit in the booth > > seats. I really > > felt sorry for them. > > I was wondering, were the people with all of the food only the obese passengers, or were you like the rest of us and not notice what the thinner people were eating. > > Also, Dave I don't remember, are you the same way with all handicapped people or just the obese because you identify. > I like it when good people like those on this board admit their feelings. I don't always have the courage to do so. > > I know that I now notice obese people more than before. But what I notice is the differences. Some dress, walk and talk like lesser citizens. Others behave as if they are on equal footing. I react differently to how people carry themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 No Fay, I notice what everyone eats right now because I'm trying to get a grip on portion control. The " normal' people did not heap their plates. In fact, I am surprised to see that normal size people often eat what I would consider to be a diet. No wonder they aren't fat! My normal friends think that's the regular way to eat and they do it unconciously...they aren't trying to eat on a diet. My perception of what my body needs in the way of fuel is definitely evolving. vicki A. > In a message dated 3/10/2003 11:33:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, vickiang@y... writes: > > > I was apalled > > at the buffet by the tremendous amounts of food they would heap on > > their plates...enough easily for 5 people, and yet some of them could > > barely walk and definitely could not fit in the booth > > seats. I really > > felt sorry for them. > > I was wondering, were the people with all of the food only the obese passengers, or were you like the rest of us and not notice what the thinner people were eating. > > Also, Dave I don't remember, are you the same way with all handicapped people or just the obese because you identify. > I like it when good people like those on this board admit their feelings. I don't always have the courage to do so. > > I know that I now notice obese people more than before. But what I notice is the differences. Some dress, walk and talk like lesser citizens. Others behave as if they are on equal footing. I react differently to how people carry themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I think that the same feeling applies to all handicapped people, but especially to people who seem hurt or in peril in some way. It's a complex reaction. And in my heart, it usually is something that just scares me a little at first, until I remind myself not to be scared. Like talking to someone in a wheel chair seems awkward until you do it. I wish I could explain better. Part of it just has to do with knowing that SOME people avoided me when I was obese, and the same people embrace me now. And I truly, deep in my heart, don't believe that they all avoided me just because they were bad people and they didn't like fat people. There is just some awkwardness present, and of course it's unfortunate. Who knows? in Austin RNY April 1998 Re: Re: Kinda Mad > Also, Dave I don't remember, are you the same way with all handicapped people or just the obese because you identify. > I like it when good people like those on this board admit their feelings. I don't always have the courage to do so. > > I know that I now notice obese people more than before. But what I notice is the differences. Some dress, walk and talk like lesser citizens. Others behave as if they are on equal footing. I react differently to how people carry themselves. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I think that the same feeling applies to all handicapped people, but especially to people who seem hurt or in peril in some way. It's a complex reaction. And in my heart, it usually is something that just scares me a little at first, until I remind myself not to be scared. Like talking to someone in a wheel chair seems awkward until you do it. I wish I could explain better. Part of it just has to do with knowing that SOME people avoided me when I was obese, and the same people embrace me now. And I truly, deep in my heart, don't believe that they all avoided me just because they were bad people and they didn't like fat people. There is just some awkwardness present, and of course it's unfortunate. Who knows? in Austin RNY April 1998 Re: Re: Kinda Mad > Also, Dave I don't remember, are you the same way with all handicapped people or just the obese because you identify. > I like it when good people like those on this board admit their feelings. I don't always have the courage to do so. > > I know that I now notice obese people more than before. But what I notice is the differences. Some dress, walk and talk like lesser citizens. Others behave as if they are on equal footing. I react differently to how people carry themselves. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 You get it Steve. Thanks. Fay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 You get it Steve. Thanks. Fay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 In a message dated 3/10/2003 8:33:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, YahooDave@... writes: > And in my heart, it usually is something that just scares me a little at > first, until I remind myself not to be scared. Like talking to someone in > a > wheel chair seems awkward until you do it. I wish I could explain better. > My heart is feeling what you are saying. Fay Bayuk - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 In a message dated 3/10/2003 8:33:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, YahooDave@... writes: > And in my heart, it usually is something that just scares me a little at > first, until I remind myself not to be scared. Like talking to someone in > a > wheel chair seems awkward until you do it. I wish I could explain better. > My heart is feeling what you are saying. Fay Bayuk - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 In a message dated 3/10/2003 8:27:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, vickiang@... writes: > In fact, I am surprised to see that normal size people often eat what > I would consider to be a diet. No wonder they aren't fat! My normal > friends think that's the regular way to eat and they do it > unconciously...they aren't trying to eat on a diet. > One thing normal people do, is not make a fuss over their food. You hardly notice how much they eat. But I force myself to notice and they all have a lot left on their plates and do not ask for take home bags, because when they are done, they are done. Fay Bayuk - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 In a message dated 3/10/2003 8:27:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, vickiang@... writes: > In fact, I am surprised to see that normal size people often eat what > I would consider to be a diet. No wonder they aren't fat! My normal > friends think that's the regular way to eat and they do it > unconciously...they aren't trying to eat on a diet. > One thing normal people do, is not make a fuss over their food. You hardly notice how much they eat. But I force myself to notice and they all have a lot left on their plates and do not ask for take home bags, because when they are done, they are done. Fay Bayuk - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I met my present wife in 1987. In 1988, we visited France and her four other siblings and the rest of her family in the Paris area. At a huge dinner table, there were at any one time about five or six more conversations (in loud French, of course) going on than the number of people seated (well, I exaggerate slightly). I was at one end of the table. People occasionally excused themselves to me for speaking French (I know only a few survival phrases). At that point, I felt for the very first time what it was like to be deformed: people feel more comfortable if they can just ignore you. (By the way, I can now wear the clothes that I was wearing then; I was relatively normally built then, so it was not my weight, but my language impairment that got in the way.) --Steve At 7:31 PM -0600 3/10/03, YahooDave wrote: >Part of it just has to do with knowing that SOME people avoided me when I >was obese, and the same people embrace me now. And I truly, deep in my >heart, don't believe that they all avoided me just because they were bad >people and they didn't like fat people. There is just some awkwardness >present, and of course it's unfortunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I met my present wife in 1987. In 1988, we visited France and her four other siblings and the rest of her family in the Paris area. At a huge dinner table, there were at any one time about five or six more conversations (in loud French, of course) going on than the number of people seated (well, I exaggerate slightly). I was at one end of the table. People occasionally excused themselves to me for speaking French (I know only a few survival phrases). At that point, I felt for the very first time what it was like to be deformed: people feel more comfortable if they can just ignore you. (By the way, I can now wear the clothes that I was wearing then; I was relatively normally built then, so it was not my weight, but my language impairment that got in the way.) --Steve At 7:31 PM -0600 3/10/03, YahooDave wrote: >Part of it just has to do with knowing that SOME people avoided me when I >was obese, and the same people embrace me now. And I truly, deep in my >heart, don't believe that they all avoided me just because they were bad >people and they didn't like fat people. There is just some awkwardness >present, and of course it's unfortunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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