Re: OA's opinion of Obesity Surgery

[Guest guest]

Fortunately, GOD is not as judgemental as some of his children. And

If I remember correctly most of the 12 steps were about God and your

relationship with him and others in your life.

I plan to get the surgey and work the 12 steps if I am not accepted I

will be glad that the surgery will prevent the emotional eating binge

that rejection would have caused. That's not the easy way out it's

the smart way out. My future is now under my control and not the

control of the Judgement twins. Do what is best for you, the only

acceptance that is required is the acceptance of God and your family.

karon

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I

attend a

> OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the subject for

fear of the

> reaction I would receive. So I tried it out on an on-line OA list

I am a

> member of. I asked for honest feedback because I wanted to get a

feel for

> the reaction I might get in a face to face meeting locally. Well,

I tell

> ya, I didn't like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly

hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this

sort of

> thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the " traditions "

of OA by

> doing so. One said that I was trying to take the easy way out and

that the

> way to thinness is through the OA program. A couple of people

admitted that

> they have considered/are considering surgery. Then the moderator

posted a

> post saying among other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop

it. In

> fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get feedback

here as I

> obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be

told to be

> quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told that " obesity will no

longer be

> a problem if I get rid of the compulsions " through OA. If I could

have done

> that I would have done that by now!!! I have been overweight and

steadily

> gaining for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years

and that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?!

Many

> skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are people

who can

> eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks

this

> morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I just

got

> really threw me over the edge. I should have known better than to

ask for

> feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

[Guest guest]

((())) I'm so sorry your feelings were hurt. Obesity and its

complex emotional issues and causes can be a highly debatable topic,

and opinions deep rooted. In fairness, one really can't expect OA to

support the idea of WLS, just as WLS patients don't agree with the

philosiphy of OA.

OA is a wonderful resource for many folks, but I would ask this one

question: If obesity is compulsion or emotion based, then why are

americans getting fatter and fatter despite OA, talk shows, self-help

books, counseling etc.?

I believe I am fighting a genetic machine. I believe we as obese

folks have survivalist metabolisms, and will gain no matter what.

Once I accepted this about myself, I was freed to look for a real

cure, and I found it in the DS.

Come here for your support on the subject of WLS, there's plenty to

go around. Be well, Meli

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I

attend a

> OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the subject for

fear of the

> reaction I would receive. So I tried it out on an on-line OA list

I am a

> member of. I asked for honest feedback because I wanted to get a

feel for

> the reaction I might get in a face to face meeting locally. Well,

I tell

> ya, I didn't like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly

hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this

sort of

> thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the " traditions "

of OA by

> doing so. One said that I was trying to take the easy way out and

that the

> way to thinness is through the OA program. A couple of people

admitted that

> they have considered/are considering surgery. Then the moderator

posted a

> post saying among other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop

it. In

> fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get feedback

here as I

> obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be

told to be

> quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told that " obesity will no

longer be

> a problem if I get rid of the compulsions " through OA. If I could

have done

> that I would have done that by now!!! I have been overweight and

steadily

> gaining for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years

and that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?!

Many

> skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are people

who can

> eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks

this

> morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I just

got

> really threw me over the edge. I should have known better than to

ask for

> feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

We would probably be defensive too, if someone came in to our group

and had a better way of doing it. Those people at OA should know that

biology plays just as big, if not bigger role in our weight issues.

And since our goal here is to be healthy not only emotionally, but

physically, that OA group in my opinion, is not dealing with the whole

problem. You cant expect to solve such a multifacted problem using

only one tool.. how closed minded and short sighted of them .

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I

attend a

> OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the subject for

fear of the

> reaction I would receive. So I tried it out on an on-line OA list I

am a

> member of. I asked for honest feedback because I wanted to get a

feel for

> the reaction I might get in a face to face meeting locally. Well, I

tell

> ya, I didn't like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly

hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this

sort of

> thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the " traditions "

of OA by

> doing so. One said that I was trying to take the easy way out and

that the

> way to thinness is through the OA program. A couple of people

admitted that

> they have considered/are considering surgery. Then the moderator

posted a

> post saying among other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop it.

In

> fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get feedback

here as I

> obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be

told to be

> quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told that " obesity will no

longer be

> a problem if I get rid of the compulsions " through OA. If I could

have done

> that I would have done that by now!!! I have been overweight and

steadily

> gaining for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years and

that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?!

Many

> skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are people

who can

> eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks

this

> morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I just

got

> really threw me over the edge. I should have known better than to

ask for

> feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

[Guest guest]

The surgery removes the ability to eat the quantity of food needed to maintain

our current Obesity. However, it can not and will not fix our " head " and

therefore the desire to eat. I think however the desire to eat is greatly

reduced. For some of us though, I think it would be beneficial to continue with

a recovery program via the 12 steps to help the compulsion.

N.

Original Message:

-----------------

From: kronwright@...

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 05:02:34 -0000

To: duodenalswitch

Subject: Re: OA's opinion of Obesity Surgery

Fortunately, GOD is not as judgemental as some of his children. And

If I remember correctly most of the 12 steps were about God and your

relationship with him and others in your life.

I plan to get the surgey and work the 12 steps if I am not accepted I

will be glad that the surgery will prevent the emotional eating binge

that rejection would have caused. That's not the easy way out it's

the smart way out. My future is now under my control and not the

control of the Judgement twins. Do what is best for you, the only

acceptance that is required is the acceptance of God and your family.

karon

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I

attend a

> OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the subject for

fear of the

> reaction I would receive. So I tried it out on an on-line OA list

I am a

> member of. I asked for honest feedback because I wanted to get a

feel for

> the reaction I might get in a face to face meeting locally. Well,

I tell

> ya, I didn't like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly

hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this

sort of

> thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the " traditions "

of OA by

> doing so. One said that I was trying to take the easy way out and

that the

> way to thinness is through the OA program. A couple of people

admitted that

> they have considered/are considering surgery. Then the moderator

posted a

> post saying among other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop

it. In

> fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get feedback

here as I

> obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be

told to be

> quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told that " obesity will no

longer be

> a problem if I get rid of the compulsions " through OA. If I could

have done

> that I would have done that by now!!! I have been overweight and

steadily

> gaining for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years

and that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?!

Many

> skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are people

who can

> eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks

this

> morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I just

got

> really threw me over the edge. I should have known better than to

ask for

> feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

,

So sorry that you had this response from OA. It's the same reason why I

have chosen not to tell my old therapist. After gaining weight (50lbs) in

the 2.5 years that I was seeing her, I decided that it was time to do

something different. For me, I've been doing some serious soul

searching...I pray, and I have been waiting for an answer. I believe that

the answer does not have to be the same for everyone. I pray for you, that

you do not count on receiving permission from others. I pray for you that

you have the courage to rely on your own internal validations, rather than

seeking external validation from others. It's the same thing that I pray

for myself, as I always seem to mistrust my own capabilities, thus assuming

that others must know what's best for me. I guess I feel that it is some of

this self defeating behavior that is the real root of so many of my

problems. ....I say, go with in, where there is only space for you and God.

I pray for you that you find the right answer for you.

K.C.

OA's opinion of Obesity Surgery

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I attend

a

> OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the subject for fear of

the

> reaction I would receive. So I tried it out on an on-line OA list I am a

> member of. I asked for honest feedback because I wanted to get a feel for

> the reaction I might get in a face to face meeting locally. Well, I tell

> ya, I didn't like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this sort of

> thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the " traditions " of OA

by

> doing so. One said that I was trying to take the easy way out and that

the

> way to thinness is through the OA program. A couple of people admitted

that

> they have considered/are considering surgery. Then the moderator posted a

> post saying among other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop it. In

> fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get feedback here as

I

> obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be told to

be

> quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told that " obesity will no longer

be

> a problem if I get rid of the compulsions " through OA. If I could have

done

> that I would have done that by now!!! I have been overweight and steadily

> gaining for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years and

that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?! Many

> skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are people who can

> eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks this

> morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I just got

> really threw me over the edge. I should have known better than to ask for

> feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

>

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

WLS need support too we need to deal with the emotional issues as

well as the physical weight. My issues are very different than

OA's. It is not about resisting food, I remember I used to go to OA,

and some days it got so tough that I would go to two sometimes three

meetings in a day. Now since surgery all that guilt about " bad

food/good food " are gone. I eat what I want to eat and as long as I

keep in mind protein first, food is no longer an issue. A good

friend of mine told me, " you paid for this surgery, let it do it's

job " . Now with surgery, I deal with changes in relationships, rapid

weight loss and food to a very small degree. If you could " cure "

alcoholism by surgery, would AA's say it was taking the easy way out,

of course not. We are so conditioned to taking the hard road.

Losing weight should be a struggle, and we should be punishing

ourselves for being fat. No wonder they need to talk about it.

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

Well said !

Thank you !

Jordan

Planning for Surgery !

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

Well said !

Thank you !

Jordan

Planning for Surgery !

[Guest guest]

,

Joe doesn't monitor this DS list anymore, but I scan it from time to

time. Yes, there is an on-line 12-Step support group on Yahoo

specifically for those who have had weight loss surgery or who are

pre-ops and are planning/considering weight loss surgery. It was

started my my husband, Joe. The URL to the group is

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WLS-12StepRecovery

Just go to that address on the web and in the upper right corner

where it says " join " just click on that and that will get you in to

the group.

My own personal opinion is that many of us (but not all) morbidly

obese folks do have the issues of " head hunger " or " emotional eating "

to deal with even after weight loss surgery. Weight loss surgery

didn't remove my compulsion to eat high sugar and high carbohydrate

foods; I still struggle with that problem a lot. Others still have

issues with " emotional eating " : eating when we aren't hungry and our

stomachs are telling us we are full. I was a grazer, and still have

to fight that temptation. If I did what I wanted to do, many days, I

would graze on Fritos, potato chips, cookies, and frozen yogurt all

day! Needless to say, I don't do this. But actually following the

guideline, " protein first " , isn't always easy for me to do, when what

I really crave is carbs and sugar. And we can defeat the DS surgery

with carbs and sugar, not to mention filling up with junk and letting

our protein levels get low because there just isn't enough room for

the protein once we have gotten our " fix " of " junk " .

-- Joy Frost, both Pre and Post-Op DS

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I

> attend a OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the

> subject for fear of the reaction I would receive. So I tried it

> out on an on-line OA list I am a member of. I asked for honest

> feedback because I wanted to get a feel for the reaction I might

> get in a face to face meeting locally. Well, I tell ya, I didn't

> like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this

> sort of thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the

> " traditions " of OA by doing so. One said that I was trying to take

> the easy way out and that the way to thinness is through the OA

> program. A couple of people admitted that they have considered/are

> considering surgery. Then the moderator posted a post saying among

> other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop

> it. In fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get

> feedback here as I obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be

> told to be quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told

> that " obesity will no longer be a problem if I get rid of the

> compulsions " through OA. If I could have done that I would have

> done that by now!!! I have been overweight and steadily gaining

> for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years and that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?!

> Many skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are

> people who can eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks

> this morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I

> just got really threw me over the edge. I should have known better

> than to ask for feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Joe doesn't monitor this DS list anymore, but I scan it from time to

time. Yes, there is an on-line 12-Step support group on Yahoo

specifically for those who have had weight loss surgery or who are

pre-ops and are planning/considering weight loss surgery. It was

started my my husband, Joe. The URL to the group is

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WLS-12StepRecovery

Just go to that address on the web and in the upper right corner

where it says " join " just click on that and that will get you in to

the group.

My own personal opinion is that many of us (but not all) morbidly

obese folks do have the issues of " head hunger " or " emotional eating "

to deal with even after weight loss surgery. Weight loss surgery

didn't remove my compulsion to eat high sugar and high carbohydrate

foods; I still struggle with that problem a lot. Others still have

issues with " emotional eating " : eating when we aren't hungry and our

stomachs are telling us we are full. I was a grazer, and still have

to fight that temptation. If I did what I wanted to do, many days, I

would graze on Fritos, potato chips, cookies, and frozen yogurt all

day! Needless to say, I don't do this. But actually following the

guideline, " protein first " , isn't always easy for me to do, when what

I really crave is carbs and sugar. And we can defeat the DS surgery

with carbs and sugar, not to mention filling up with junk and letting

our protein levels get low because there just isn't enough room for

the protein once we have gotten our " fix " of " junk " .

-- Joy Frost, both Pre and Post-Op DS

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I

> attend a OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the

> subject for fear of the reaction I would receive. So I tried it

> out on an on-line OA list I am a member of. I asked for honest

> feedback because I wanted to get a feel for the reaction I might

> get in a face to face meeting locally. Well, I tell ya, I didn't

> like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this

> sort of thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the

> " traditions " of OA by doing so. One said that I was trying to take

> the easy way out and that the way to thinness is through the OA

> program. A couple of people admitted that they have considered/are

> considering surgery. Then the moderator posted a post saying among

> other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop

> it. In fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get

> feedback here as I obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be

> told to be quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told

> that " obesity will no longer be a problem if I get rid of the

> compulsions " through OA. If I could have done that I would have

> done that by now!!! I have been overweight and steadily gaining

> for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years and that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?!

> Many skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are

> people who can eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks

> this morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I

> just got really threw me over the edge. I should have known better

> than to ask for feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I recognize several of my own " issues " in your

post:

1) I found that I could not expect all people to

be supportive of my decision and some were

hell-bent on telling me surgery was the wrong

thing...need I say the obvious: casting the

decision to improve health and quality of life

into a " right and wrong " arena speaks to the

issues of the person who is judgmental for

whatever reason. I chose who I would tell I was

having surgery, was fortunate to gain lots of

support and with two people who felt compelled to

persuade me otherwise, I simply stopped their

comments, refused to discuss the subject any

further and that was that. Not everyone will

approve, and I did not need everyone's approval.

2) my experience with OA included the 12-step

idea that healing from compulsion must occur on

three levels: spiritual, emotional, and physical.

Some people I heard speak of therapy as an

extension of a personal inventory (OA does not

endorse any plan of " therapy, " ) If someone sees

therapy as a tool is that wrong?? there we go

with black and white thinking!!

So, if someone sees surgery as a tool to heal

physically is that wrong??? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Thinking in terms of right and wrong, win/lose,

black/white...are indicative of

compulsive-addictive personalities....healing

includes stopping the STINKING THINKING.

Finally, I think each of us CAN CHOOSE the

arena(s) for discussion of surgery, and can

choose the arena(s) that will best support us in

a difficult decision. Gather information, become

informed, talk to doctors and people who can

share their experiences and make the best

decision you can with the information you have

collected. Dismiss thinking and dismiss people

who must understand everything as " right or

wrong. "

LennyB

BPD/DS Apr2, Dr Gagner, -76 lbs at 13 weeks

Strictly my opinions expressed here, not

attempting to explain or defend or offend 12 step

group members

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I recognize several of my own " issues " in your

post:

1) I found that I could not expect all people to

be supportive of my decision and some were

hell-bent on telling me surgery was the wrong

thing...need I say the obvious: casting the

decision to improve health and quality of life

into a " right and wrong " arena speaks to the

issues of the person who is judgmental for

whatever reason. I chose who I would tell I was

having surgery, was fortunate to gain lots of

support and with two people who felt compelled to

persuade me otherwise, I simply stopped their

comments, refused to discuss the subject any

further and that was that. Not everyone will

approve, and I did not need everyone's approval.

2) my experience with OA included the 12-step

idea that healing from compulsion must occur on

three levels: spiritual, emotional, and physical.

Some people I heard speak of therapy as an

extension of a personal inventory (OA does not

endorse any plan of " therapy, " ) If someone sees

therapy as a tool is that wrong?? there we go

with black and white thinking!!

So, if someone sees surgery as a tool to heal

physically is that wrong??? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Thinking in terms of right and wrong, win/lose,

black/white...are indicative of

compulsive-addictive personalities....healing

includes stopping the STINKING THINKING.

Finally, I think each of us CAN CHOOSE the

arena(s) for discussion of surgery, and can

choose the arena(s) that will best support us in

a difficult decision. Gather information, become

informed, talk to doctors and people who can

share their experiences and make the best

decision you can with the information you have

collected. Dismiss thinking and dismiss people

who must understand everything as " right or

wrong. "

LennyB

BPD/DS Apr2, Dr Gagner, -76 lbs at 13 weeks

Strictly my opinions expressed here, not

attempting to explain or defend or offend 12 step

group members

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

I really liked your post!

R.E. point 1: I have not told my malignantly intrusive narcissistic

mother about my own weight loss surgery-- she has rarely been

supportive of me in other areas of my life-- I can't expect her to be

anything but critical and destructive in this aspect either.

R.E. point 2: Joe (my D.H.) sees weight loss surgery as a " tool " of

recovery and it fits very nicely into a comprehensive recovery plan

that addresses physical, emotional, and spiritual recovery. Black

and white thinking is so pervasive in our culture, and it is a

constant challenge for me to be aware of when it is affecting my own

thinking.

-- Joy Frost, both Pre and Post-Op DS

> I recognize several of my own " issues " in your

> post:

> 1) I found that I could not expect all people to

> be supportive of my decision and some were

> hell-bent on telling me surgery was the wrong

> thing...need I say the obvious: casting the

> decision to improve health and quality of life

> into a " right and wrong " arena speaks to the

> issues of the person who is judgmental for

> whatever reason. I chose who I would tell I was

> having surgery, was fortunate to gain lots of

> support and with two people who felt compelled to

> persuade me otherwise, I simply stopped their

> comments, refused to discuss the subject any

> further and that was that. Not everyone will

> approve, and I did not need everyone's approval.

> 2) my experience with OA included the 12-step

> idea that healing from compulsion must occur on

> three levels: spiritual, emotional, and physical.

> Some people I heard speak of therapy as an

> extension of a personal inventory (OA does not

> endorse any plan of " therapy, " ) If someone sees

> therapy as a tool is that wrong?? there we go

> with black and white thinking!!

> So, if someone sees surgery as a tool to heal

> physically is that wrong??? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

>

> Thinking in terms of right and wrong, win/lose,

> black/white...are indicative of

> compulsive-addictive personalities....healing

> includes stopping the STINKING THINKING.

>

> Finally, I think each of us CAN CHOOSE the

> arena(s) for discussion of surgery, and can

> choose the arena(s) that will best support us in

> a difficult decision. Gather information, become

> informed, talk to doctors and people who can

> share their experiences and make the best

> decision you can with the information you have

> collected. Dismiss thinking and dismiss people

> who must understand everything as " right or

> wrong. "

> LennyB

> BPD/DS Apr2, Dr Gagner, -76 lbs at 13 weeks

> Strictly my opinions expressed here, not

> attempting to explain or defend or offend 12 step

> group members

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Lenny,

I really liked your post!

R.E. point 1: I have not told my malignantly intrusive narcissistic

mother about my own weight loss surgery-- she has rarely been

supportive of me in other areas of my life-- I can't expect her to be

anything but critical and destructive in this aspect either.

R.E. point 2: Joe (my D.H.) sees weight loss surgery as a " tool " of

recovery and it fits very nicely into a comprehensive recovery plan

that addresses physical, emotional, and spiritual recovery. Black

and white thinking is so pervasive in our culture, and it is a

constant challenge for me to be aware of when it is affecting my own

thinking.

-- Joy Frost, both Pre and Post-Op DS

> I recognize several of my own " issues " in your

> post:

> 1) I found that I could not expect all people to

> be supportive of my decision and some were

> hell-bent on telling me surgery was the wrong

> thing...need I say the obvious: casting the

> decision to improve health and quality of life

> into a " right and wrong " arena speaks to the

> issues of the person who is judgmental for

> whatever reason. I chose who I would tell I was

> having surgery, was fortunate to gain lots of

> support and with two people who felt compelled to

> persuade me otherwise, I simply stopped their

> comments, refused to discuss the subject any

> further and that was that. Not everyone will

> approve, and I did not need everyone's approval.

> 2) my experience with OA included the 12-step

> idea that healing from compulsion must occur on

> three levels: spiritual, emotional, and physical.

> Some people I heard speak of therapy as an

> extension of a personal inventory (OA does not

> endorse any plan of " therapy, " ) If someone sees

> therapy as a tool is that wrong?? there we go

> with black and white thinking!!

> So, if someone sees surgery as a tool to heal

> physically is that wrong??? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

>

> Thinking in terms of right and wrong, win/lose,

> black/white...are indicative of

> compulsive-addictive personalities....healing

> includes stopping the STINKING THINKING.

>

> Finally, I think each of us CAN CHOOSE the

> arena(s) for discussion of surgery, and can

> choose the arena(s) that will best support us in

> a difficult decision. Gather information, become

> informed, talk to doctors and people who can

> share their experiences and make the best

> decision you can with the information you have

> collected. Dismiss thinking and dismiss people

> who must understand everything as " right or

> wrong. "

> LennyB

> BPD/DS Apr2, Dr Gagner, -76 lbs at 13 weeks

> Strictly my opinions expressed here, not

> attempting to explain or defend or offend 12 step

> group members

>

>

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

You hit the needle on the head with why I no longer belong to OA.

While in Provo, Utah I joined a local OA group and I can tell yout

that it was one of the best experiences that I ever had. This group of

women opened their hearts and their arms to me and made me feel so

welcome and so comfortable that I couldn't have ever seen myself going

on another non-OA diet again. I lost 35lbs and went to the gym

religiosly every day sometimes even twice a day. I felt great about

myself and the steps were an incredible source of healing for my

spirit. It was so wonderful to be able to reach out and call

someone when I felt like compulsively overeating. For the first

time I did not feel like I was alone and I realized that I had a

disease. That I could treat the symptoms of the disease but that

without constant treatment and vigilance the disease would rear

it's ugly head.

I returned to Upstate NY later that year and attended every OA meeting

in the area. I could not find a group that had the same sense of

support and camraderie as this group had. And to make matters worse

all they concentrated on were the food issues not the emotional issues

that lead to compulsive overeating. That was ten years ago and it was

all down hill until I discovered WLS.

OA is a great program. However just like any other program it's

members are not perfect they are individuals struggling with

compulsive overeating one day at a time. While individual members

can be cruel do not let them deter you from OA as a whole. I am

sure there are some great groups out there. And I can tell you that

while gentics can account for 50% of my obesity, complusive and

secretive eating surely accounts for atleast 30%. And if I am going to

succeed at this I will have to continue to address my food issues.

I think that the reason some OA members object is that a shocking

number of them have had wls, ofcourse RNY. There was a girl in my

group who had RNY and a tummy tuck she managed to gain back about 60

of the 100 pounds she lost. I am not sure if this is becuase of staple

line disruption or because the stomach stretched to that point.

OA is not by it's very nature designed to deal with wls and while

it can be incorporated it will not be an easy fit.

I will probably get slammed for this but I can't see how OA can be

done via the internet. When I first started I really needed the

guidance and emotional contact of those who had worked the program

and the ability to get out of the house into private meeting room

worked wonders for me. I am more wired than 90% of the people I

know but nevertheless I have a hard time seeing how anyone could be

successful working the program exclusively through the internet.

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I

attend a

> OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the subject for

fear of the

> reaction I would receive. So I tried it out on an on-line OA list I

am a

> member of. I asked for honest feedback because I wanted to get a

feel for

> the reaction I might get in a face to face meeting locally. Well, I

tell

> ya, I didn't like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly

hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this

sort of

> thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the " traditions "

of OA by

> doing so. One said that I was trying to take the easy way out and

that the

> way to thinness is through the OA program. A couple of people

admitted that

> they have considered/are considering surgery. Then the moderator

posted a

> post saying among other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop it.

In

> fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get feedback

here as I

> obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be

told to be

> quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told that " obesity will no

longer be

> a problem if I get rid of the compulsions " through OA. If I could

have done

> that I would have done that by now!!! I have been overweight and

steadily

> gaining for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years and

that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?!

Many

> skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are people

who can

> eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks

this

> morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I just

got

> really threw me over the edge. I should have known better than to

ask for

> feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

[Guest guest]

You hit the needle on the head with why I no longer belong to OA.

While in Provo, Utah I joined a local OA group and I can tell yout

that it was one of the best experiences that I ever had. This group of

women opened their hearts and their arms to me and made me feel so

welcome and so comfortable that I couldn't have ever seen myself going

on another non-OA diet again. I lost 35lbs and went to the gym

religiosly every day sometimes even twice a day. I felt great about

myself and the steps were an incredible source of healing for my

spirit. It was so wonderful to be able to reach out and call

someone when I felt like compulsively overeating. For the first

time I did not feel like I was alone and I realized that I had a

disease. That I could treat the symptoms of the disease but that

without constant treatment and vigilance the disease would rear

it's ugly head.

I returned to Upstate NY later that year and attended every OA meeting

in the area. I could not find a group that had the same sense of

support and camraderie as this group had. And to make matters worse

all they concentrated on were the food issues not the emotional issues

that lead to compulsive overeating. That was ten years ago and it was

all down hill until I discovered WLS.

OA is a great program. However just like any other program it's

members are not perfect they are individuals struggling with

compulsive overeating one day at a time. While individual members

can be cruel do not let them deter you from OA as a whole. I am

sure there are some great groups out there. And I can tell you that

while gentics can account for 50% of my obesity, complusive and

secretive eating surely accounts for atleast 30%. And if I am going to

succeed at this I will have to continue to address my food issues.

I think that the reason some OA members object is that a shocking

number of them have had wls, ofcourse RNY. There was a girl in my

group who had RNY and a tummy tuck she managed to gain back about 60

of the 100 pounds she lost. I am not sure if this is becuase of staple

line disruption or because the stomach stretched to that point.

OA is not by it's very nature designed to deal with wls and while

it can be incorporated it will not be an easy fit.

I will probably get slammed for this but I can't see how OA can be

done via the internet. When I first started I really needed the

guidance and emotional contact of those who had worked the program

and the ability to get out of the house into private meeting room

worked wonders for me. I am more wired than 90% of the people I

know but nevertheless I have a hard time seeing how anyone could be

successful working the program exclusively through the internet.

> I posted an email to and online OA group that I am a member of. I

attend a

> OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise the subject for

fear of the

> reaction I would receive. So I tried it out on an on-line OA list I

am a

> member of. I asked for honest feedback because I wanted to get a

feel for

> the reaction I might get in a face to face meeting locally. Well, I

tell

> ya, I didn't like the reception I got. My feelings were terribly

hurt. I

> asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

>

> Several people responded by saying that I should not discuss this

sort of

> thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking the " traditions "

of OA by

> doing so. One said that I was trying to take the easy way out and

that the

> way to thinness is through the OA program. A couple of people

admitted that

> they have considered/are considering surgery. Then the moderator

posted a

> post saying among other things:

>

> " We are not a group on obesity, except as it may

> relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> focus on cures for obesity. We have experience

> that if the compulsion is taken away, the obesity

> will no longer be a problem. "

>

> Then I was asked to drop the discussion. Obviously I will drop it.

In

> fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent and get feedback

here as I

> obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

>

> I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared to basically be

told to be

> quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told that " obesity will no

longer be

> a problem if I get rid of the compulsions " through OA. If I could

have done

> that I would have done that by now!!! I have been overweight and

steadily

> gaining for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in the past 2 years and

that's

> while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat some things that I

> shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing things right " ?!

Many

> skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it. There are people

who can

> eat all day long and not gain a pound.

>

> I have been near tears over this. The first few negative remarks

this

> morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the moderator I just

got

> really threw me over the edge. I should have known better than to

ask for

> feedback about WLS from an OA list.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Many many post op DS patients report that their craving to overeat

has vanished since being switched.

in Seattle

>

> The surgery removes the ability to eat the quantity of food needed

to maintain our current Obesity. However, it can not and will not fix

our " head " and therefore the desire to eat. I think however the

desire to eat is greatly reduced. For some of us though, I think it

would be beneficial to continue with a recovery program via the 12

steps to help the compulsion.

[Guest guest]

Many many post op DS patients report that their craving to overeat

has vanished since being switched.

in Seattle

>

> The surgery removes the ability to eat the quantity of food needed

to maintain our current Obesity. However, it can not and will not fix

our " head " and therefore the desire to eat. I think however the

desire to eat is greatly reduced. For some of us though, I think it

would be beneficial to continue with a recovery program via the 12

steps to help the compulsion.

[Guest guest]

Hello, all:

I believe I may be able to submit a different twist on

the OA question. I have been attending both OA and AA

meetings for over 20 years!! First of all, I got

sober soon after my first AA meeting and have been

sober for over 21 years with no slips. OA has been

another story, in and out, up and down, the usual

yo-yo syndrome we should all be familiar with. Now,

here's why OA is not effective as the lone tool in

recovery from obesity and compulsive overeating. AA

is effective (as is G.A., N.A, etc) because it is a

program of TOTAL ABSTINENCE. If the 12 steps worked

as a means of MODERATING compulsive behavior, then AA

could have taught me to be a social drinker. No one

in AA would ever believe that to be true, because it's

just not possible. People who are true alcoholics

just can't drink like normal people. Once a drunk

takes the first drink, sooner or later (and it may

take months), he or she will end up drunk and in

trouble. I have seen many, many examples of this in 21

years. Furthermore, knowing this to be true

reinforces in me the fact that I can never, ever

safely take even one drink. But OA asks us to eat the

food, 3 times a day or more, and still know when to

stop. For many of us, I believe that this is

impossible without the physical change that WLS

provides.

Bob

lionrampart@... wrote:

> ((())) I'm so sorry your feelings were hurt.

> Obesity and its

> complex emotional issues and causes can be a highly

> debatable topic,

> and opinions deep rooted. In fairness, one really

> can't expect OA to

> support the idea of WLS, just as WLS patients don't

> agree with the

> philosiphy of OA.

> OA is a wonderful resource for many folks, but I

> would ask this one

> question: If obesity is compulsion or emotion based,

> then why are

> americans getting fatter and fatter despite OA, talk

> shows, self-help

> books, counseling etc.?

> I believe I am fighting a genetic machine. I

> believe we as obese

> folks have survivalist metabolisms, and will gain no

> matter what.

> Once I accepted this about myself, I was freed to

> look for a real

> cure, and I found it in the DS.

> Come here for your support on the subject of WLS,

> there's plenty to

> go around. Be well, Meli

>

>

>

> > I posted an email to and online OA group that I am

> a member of. I

> attend a

> > OA group locally and I have been afraid to raise

> the subject for

> fear of the

> > reaction I would receive. So I tried it out on an

> on-line OA list

> I am a

> > member of. I asked for honest feedback because I

> wanted to get a

> feel for

> > the reaction I might get in a face to face meeting

> locally. Well,

> I tell

> > ya, I didn't like the reception I got. My

> feelings were terribly

> hurt. I

> > asked for honesty and BLAM did I get it.

> >

> > Several people responded by saying that I should

> not discuss this

> sort of

> > thing on an OA list. One lady said I was breaking

> the " traditions "

> of OA by

> > doing so. One said that I was trying to take the

> easy way out and

> that the

> > way to thinness is through the OA program. A

> couple of people

> admitted that

> > they have considered/are considering surgery.

> Then the moderator

> posted a

> > post saying among other things:

> >

> > " We are not a group on obesity, except as it

> may

> > relate to our feelings. As a group,we do not

> > focus on cures for obesity. We have

> experience

> > that if the compulsion is taken away, the

> obesity

> > will no longer be a problem. "

> >

> > Then I was asked to drop the discussion.

> Obviously I will drop

> it. In

> > fact, I may unsubscribe. So, now I need to vent

> and get feedback

> here as I

> > obviously cannot continue the conversation there.

> >

> > I know I asked for honesty, but I wasn't prepared

> to basically be

> told to be

> > quiet and stop talking non-sense. Or be told that

> " obesity will no

> longer be

> > a problem if I get rid of the compulsions " through

> OA. If I could

> have done

> > that I would have done that by now!!! I have been

> overweight and

> steadily

> > gaining for YEARS now. I've gained 45 pounds in

> the past 2 years

> and that's

> > while attending both OA and EDA. Maybe I do eat

> some things that I

> > shouldn't, but does that mean that I am not " doing

> things right " ?!

> Many

> > skinny people eat more than I do! I've seen it.

> There are people

> who can

> > eat all day long and not gain a pound.

> >

> > I have been near tears over this. The first few

> negative remarks

> this

> > morning got me a bit upset, but this post from the

> moderator I just

> got

> > really threw me over the edge. I should have

> known better than to

> ask for

> > feedback about WLS from an OA list.

> >

> >

>

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

At 5:42 AM -0700 8/1/01, Bob Markell wrote:

>Hello, all:

>I believe I may be able to submit a different twist on

>the OA question. I have been attending both OA and AA

>meetings for over 20 years!! First of all, I got

>sober soon after my first AA meeting and have been

>sober for over 21 years with no slips.

All right, BOB!!! Thanks for sharing this info with us. I agree

with you that moderation and abstinence are two VERY different

imperatives.

--Steve

--

[Guest guest]

Bob, thanks for your twist on this. Comments below...

Re: Re: OA's opinion of Obesity Surgery

> I believe I may be able to submit a different twist on

> the OA question. I have been attending both OA and AA

> meetings for over 20 years!! First of all, I got

> sober soon after my first AA meeting and have been

> sober for over 21 years with no slips.

Way to go! I've been sober for 5 years now, and that is no small feat, so

21 years is a miracle.

OA has been

> another story, in and out, up and down, the usual

> yo-yo syndrome we should all be familiar with. Now,

> here's why OA is not effective as the lone tool in

> recovery from obesity and compulsive overeating. AA

> is effective (as is G.A., N.A, etc) because it is a

> program of TOTAL ABSTINENCE. If the 12 steps worked

> as a means of MODERATING compulsive behavior, then AA

> could have taught me to be a social drinker. No one

> in AA would ever believe that to be true, because it's

> just not possible. People who are true alcoholics

> just can't drink like normal people. Once a drunk

> takes the first drink, sooner or later (and it may

> take months), he or she will end up drunk and in

> trouble. I have seen many, many examples of this in 21

> years.

As have I in the 15 years that I have been attending AA. Sadly, there

really is a huge turnover. I've been one of those on the revolving door

plan myself, but hopefully not in the future.

> Furthermore, knowing this to be true

> reinforces in me the fact that I can never, ever

> safely take even one drink. But OA asks us to eat the

> food, 3 times a day or more, and still know when to

> stop. For many of us, I believe that this is

> impossible without the physical change that WLS

> provides.

I definitely agree with you, however, I haven't found anyone else in OA

around her on my OA mailing list who feel the same way. Too bad. I am

doing some soul searching and may have to decide what I think is best for me

despite my sponsor not agreeing with me.

Thanks again!

[Guest guest]

Bob, thanks for your twist on this. Comments below...

Re: Re: OA's opinion of Obesity Surgery

> I believe I may be able to submit a different twist on

> the OA question. I have been attending both OA and AA

> meetings for over 20 years!! First of all, I got

> sober soon after my first AA meeting and have been

> sober for over 21 years with no slips.

Way to go! I've been sober for 5 years now, and that is no small feat, so

21 years is a miracle.

OA has been

> another story, in and out, up and down, the usual

> yo-yo syndrome we should all be familiar with. Now,

> here's why OA is not effective as the lone tool in

> recovery from obesity and compulsive overeating. AA

> is effective (as is G.A., N.A, etc) because it is a

> program of TOTAL ABSTINENCE. If the 12 steps worked

> as a means of MODERATING compulsive behavior, then AA

> could have taught me to be a social drinker. No one

> in AA would ever believe that to be true, because it's

> just not possible. People who are true alcoholics

> just can't drink like normal people. Once a drunk

> takes the first drink, sooner or later (and it may

> take months), he or she will end up drunk and in

> trouble. I have seen many, many examples of this in 21

> years.

As have I in the 15 years that I have been attending AA. Sadly, there

really is a huge turnover. I've been one of those on the revolving door

plan myself, but hopefully not in the future.

> Furthermore, knowing this to be true

> reinforces in me the fact that I can never, ever

> safely take even one drink. But OA asks us to eat the

> food, 3 times a day or more, and still know when to

> stop. For many of us, I believe that this is

> impossible without the physical change that WLS

> provides.

I definitely agree with you, however, I haven't found anyone else in OA

around her on my OA mailing list who feel the same way. Too bad. I am

doing some soul searching and may have to decide what I think is best for me

despite my sponsor not agreeing with me.

Thanks again!

[Guest guest]

> Joe doesn't monitor this DS list anymore, but I scan it from time

to

> time. Yes, there is an on-line 12-Step support group on Yahoo

> specifically for those who have had weight loss surgery or who are

> pre-ops and are planning/considering weight loss surgery. It was

> started my my husband, Joe. The URL to the group is

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WLS-12StepRecovery

Thank you for telling me about this resource. I'll most likely join

the group.

> My own personal opinion is that many of us (but not all) morbidly

> obese folks do have the issues of " head hunger " or " emotional

eating "

> to deal with even after weight loss surgery. Weight loss surgery

> didn't remove my compulsion to eat high sugar and high carbohydrate

> foods; I still struggle with that problem a lot. Others still have

> issues with " emotional eating " : eating when we aren't hungry and

our

> stomachs are telling us we are full. I was a grazer, and still

have

> to fight that temptation. If I did what I wanted to do, many days,

I

> would graze on Fritos, potato chips, cookies, and frozen yogurt all

> day! Needless to say, I don't do this.

LOL! I can totally relate to that. I would eat about the same way

given the choice. Fortunately it makes me feel terrible when I do,

so I usually don't just eat " junk food " all day. I definitely

have " Head hunger " , I know just what you mean.

But actually following the

> guideline, " protein first " , isn't always easy for me to do, when

what

> I really crave is carbs and sugar. And we can defeat the DS

surgery

> with carbs and sugar, not to mention filling up with junk and

letting

> our protein levels get low because there just isn't enough room for

> the protein once we have gotten our " fix " of " junk " .

Thanks Joy!

[Guest guest]

> Joe doesn't monitor this DS list anymore, but I scan it from time

to

> time. Yes, there is an on-line 12-Step support group on Yahoo

> specifically for those who have had weight loss surgery or who are

> pre-ops and are planning/considering weight loss surgery. It was

> started my my husband, Joe. The URL to the group is

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WLS-12StepRecovery

Thank you for telling me about this resource. I'll most likely join

the group.

> My own personal opinion is that many of us (but not all) morbidly

> obese folks do have the issues of " head hunger " or " emotional

eating "

> to deal with even after weight loss surgery. Weight loss surgery

> didn't remove my compulsion to eat high sugar and high carbohydrate

> foods; I still struggle with that problem a lot. Others still have

> issues with " emotional eating " : eating when we aren't hungry and

our

> stomachs are telling us we are full. I was a grazer, and still

have

> to fight that temptation. If I did what I wanted to do, many days,

I

> would graze on Fritos, potato chips, cookies, and frozen yogurt all

> day! Needless to say, I don't do this.

LOL! I can totally relate to that. I would eat about the same way

given the choice. Fortunately it makes me feel terrible when I do,

so I usually don't just eat " junk food " all day. I definitely

have " Head hunger " , I know just what you mean.

But actually following the

> guideline, " protein first " , isn't always easy for me to do, when

what

> I really crave is carbs and sugar. And we can defeat the DS

surgery

> with carbs and sugar, not to mention filling up with junk and

letting

> our protein levels get low because there just isn't enough room for

> the protein once we have gotten our " fix " of " junk " .

Thanks Joy!

[Guest guest]

Everyone,

I just attempted to respond to everyone who replied to my OA post, but gave

up after a few! There were just too many to respond to, but I did want to

say THANK YOU to everyone who did reply. Each and every reponse helped me a

lot. I was able to tell my OA sponsor I was considering this surgery. She

didn't exactly condemn the idea but wasn't thrilled with it either. It

helpd me to have discussed it with you all here first. Thanks again!