Looking at Death............

[Guest guest]

Tom,

I had never heard about Larry, but when I read about his untimely

death, I did read his web pages and realized his story could have

been any of our stories! That was and is so scarey it makes one turn

away emotionaly and pyshologicaly from looking in the mirror at our

owm mortality. I am sure most DSers who read of his death, sighed

deep down, and took a quick thank God it was not me!

700 pounds shortens the odds, new procedures for a surgeon can never

can be as good as those with much experience, but I would just like

to think that Larry on that day, in that place, with these

circumstances...it was just not meant to be. What is...is.

This is why I need to get to a healthy weight, and picked the finest

docter and hopital I could......WE ALL WANT AND NEED TO LIVE.

May Larry and those that have lost their lives in their noble pursuit

to live, and to their grieving families, I am sure I speak for this

whole list....our deep sympathy.

dan

> Hi all:

>

> I am quite disappointed by the reaction of the membership of this

> list to the death of Larry Young. It's all well and fine to offer

> our condolences and wring our collective hands with sadness, but

that

> doesn't do Larry a bit of good, does it? At this point, you may

well

> be thinking, " Obviously it doesn't do Larry any good Tom, (you

> A$$HOLE), the man is DEAD -- show some respect! "

>

> Go ahead and label me the a$$hole of the century if you want, but

my

> reaction to Larry's death is not so much sadness as ANGER and a

> desire to know WHY.

>

> WHY DID THIS FORTY-YEAR OLD MAN DIE?

>

>

> Here are the facts I have been able to collect:

>

> 1. Regarding Larry

>

> Age: 40

> Weight: 686 pounds

> BMI: 88.1

> Co-Morbidities: sleep apnea, joint pain, mobility limited

> Spouse: Diane

>

>

> 2. Surgeon: Dr. Husted, Nashville, TN

>

> Experience:

>

> -- Doctor's website mentions only Fobi Pouch

> <http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/hustedmd/>

>

> -- According to Obesityhelp.com, Dr. Husted has performed more than

> 400 open RNY's, and cranks them out at a rate of 30 per month.

> <http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/mdcomments.phtml?

> N=941980556>

>

> -- According to Theresa's notice about Larry's death, this was Dr.

> Husted's FIRST BPD/DS.

>

>

> 3. Larry's comments about Dr. Husted

>

> " When we got into see Dr. Husted, we are immeadetly

> at ease with him. He really seems to love helping

> people with this surgery. We talked about my sleep

> apnea, and that he wants me to see Dr. Peacock, a

> pulmonary doctor that has an office in Nashville.

> Then he said I was the ideal cadidate for this surgery. "

> <http://www.geocities.com/conwaysdaddy/>

>

> " I was impressed with Dr Husted imedeatly when we

> got to the seminar. His Nurse was also very

> helpful. Dr Husted spent almost an hour with me

> during my first visit....He was very informative and

> I really am comfortable with him and his whole staff. "

> <http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/profile.phtml?

N=Y987203084>

>

>

> 4. What Happened?

>

> -- " He was in the ICU after surgery for awhile and developed > a

> wound infection. " (Theresa)

>

> -- " He was having some breathing difficulties and we called

Dr.husted

> in to see us at 1 am.... he ordered blood gasses which came out

> fine...shortly there after Larry started turning blue...the staff

on

> the 5th floor worked on him for nearly an hour but he was allready

> gone. " (Diane, Larry's widow)

>

>

> WHY DID LARRY DIE, I.E., WHO FAILED HIM?

>

> (WARNING: THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS STRONG OPINIONS. IF YOU ARE ONE

OF

> THE MANY PEOPLE ON THIS LIST WHO ARE RENDERED APOPLECTIC BY THE

> PUBLIC EXPRESSION OF OPINIONS CONTRARY TO YOUR OWN, PLEASE STOP

> READING NOW.)

>

> To repeat:

>

> WHO FAILED LARRY?

>

> 1. Dr. Husted failed him

>

> What the HELL was this man thinking, taking on a 686 pound patient

> with a BMI of 88.1 for his very FIRST BPD/DS procedure?

>

> 2. WE FAILED HIM!

>

> Who we? Yes WE!

>

> How? By being so EFFING scared of hurting someone's feelings that

we

> almost never discuss the hard truths about this surgery, (or if we

> do, the conversation is quickly shouted down).

>

> Here are some of those hard truths we don't talk about:

>

> 1. This surgery is technically difficult and, in inexperienced

> hands, extremely dangerous;

>

> 2. The DS has a steep learning curve, i.e., if you choose a

surgeon

> who has not performed many of the procedures, you GREATLY increase

> your chances of serious complications and/or death;

>

> 3. All DS surgeons are not equal. Some have performed the surgery

> so many times they could probably do it in their sleep, while

others

> are so wet behind the ears they probably need an instruction manual

> in the operating room;

>

> 4. Being a good surgeon requires much, much more than memorizing

the

> human anatomy and learning how to cut and stitch tissues and

organs.

> It takes, more than anything else, GOOD JUDGMENT -- which I define

as

> the ability to make decisions PRIOR to surgery such as to minimize

> the risk of that surgery, as well as the ability to make the right

> decision quickly when faced with a crisis in the operating room.

>

> 5. There is no correlation between how much a surgeon's patients

> like that surgeon and how capable that surgeon is. Nor is there

any

> correlation between how nice a surgeon is at the consult, or how

much

> time s/he spends with you, and how capable a surgeon s/he is.

>

>

> I could go on and on, but I won't. Instead, I'll leave you with a

> question.

>

> Do we care about our fellow MO folks? Do we care enough to caution

> them against doing something we know in our hearts is foolish or

> dangerous?

>

> Will we care enough about the next Larry to tell him DON'T GO TO AN

> INEXPERIENCED SURGEON -- DON'T BE FIRST -- DON'T BE A GUINEA PIG!

>

> Or will we just sit on our hands until s/he's dead or maimed, and

> then wring them in sadness?

>

> Think about it.

>

> Tom

>

> Panniculectomy, Dr. Anthone, 11/10/2000

> Open DS, Dr. Anthone, 03/30/2001

> 11/10/2000 . . . . . . 386 (Panniculectomy)

> 03/30/2001 . . . . . . 360 (DS)

> 04/19/2001 . . . . . . 338

> 05/03/2001 . . . . . . 328

> 05/18/2001 . . . . . . 316

> 06/03/2001 . . . . . . 301

> 06/15/2001 . . . . . . 299

> 06/25/2001 . . . . . . 293

> 07/03/2001 . . . . . . 286

> 07/16/2001 . . . . . . 278

> 07/23/2001 . . . . . . 276

> 07/30/2001 . . . . . . 275

> 08/06/2001 . . . . . . 272

> Goal Weight. . . . . . 185

> Lost So Far. . . . . . 114 Ugly Pounds

> Remainder to Goal. . . 87

> USC DS Support Group: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ds_usc>

[Guest guest]

Tom,

I had never heard about Larry, but when I read about his untimely

death, I did read his web pages and realized his story could have

been any of our stories! That was and is so scarey it makes one turn

away emotionaly and pyshologicaly from looking in the mirror at our

owm mortality. I am sure most DSers who read of his death, sighed

deep down, and took a quick thank God it was not me!

700 pounds shortens the odds, new procedures for a surgeon can never

can be as good as those with much experience, but I would just like

to think that Larry on that day, in that place, with these

circumstances...it was just not meant to be. What is...is.

This is why I need to get to a healthy weight, and picked the finest

docter and hopital I could......WE ALL WANT AND NEED TO LIVE.

May Larry and those that have lost their lives in their noble pursuit

to live, and to their grieving families, I am sure I speak for this

whole list....our deep sympathy.

dan

> Hi all:

>

> I am quite disappointed by the reaction of the membership of this

> list to the death of Larry Young. It's all well and fine to offer

> our condolences and wring our collective hands with sadness, but

that

> doesn't do Larry a bit of good, does it? At this point, you may

well

> be thinking, " Obviously it doesn't do Larry any good Tom, (you

> A$$HOLE), the man is DEAD -- show some respect! "

>

> Go ahead and label me the a$$hole of the century if you want, but

my

> reaction to Larry's death is not so much sadness as ANGER and a

> desire to know WHY.

>

> WHY DID THIS FORTY-YEAR OLD MAN DIE?

>

>

> Here are the facts I have been able to collect:

>

> 1. Regarding Larry

>

> Age: 40

> Weight: 686 pounds

> BMI: 88.1

> Co-Morbidities: sleep apnea, joint pain, mobility limited

> Spouse: Diane

>

>

> 2. Surgeon: Dr. Husted, Nashville, TN

>

> Experience:

>

> -- Doctor's website mentions only Fobi Pouch

> <http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/hustedmd/>

>

> -- According to Obesityhelp.com, Dr. Husted has performed more than

> 400 open RNY's, and cranks them out at a rate of 30 per month.

> <http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/mdcomments.phtml?

> N=941980556>

>

> -- According to Theresa's notice about Larry's death, this was Dr.

> Husted's FIRST BPD/DS.

>

>

> 3. Larry's comments about Dr. Husted

>

> " When we got into see Dr. Husted, we are immeadetly

> at ease with him. He really seems to love helping

> people with this surgery. We talked about my sleep

> apnea, and that he wants me to see Dr. Peacock, a

> pulmonary doctor that has an office in Nashville.

> Then he said I was the ideal cadidate for this surgery. "

> <http://www.geocities.com/conwaysdaddy/>

>

> " I was impressed with Dr Husted imedeatly when we

> got to the seminar. His Nurse was also very

> helpful. Dr Husted spent almost an hour with me

> during my first visit....He was very informative and

> I really am comfortable with him and his whole staff. "

> <http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/profile.phtml?

N=Y987203084>

>

>

> 4. What Happened?

>

> -- " He was in the ICU after surgery for awhile and developed > a

> wound infection. " (Theresa)

>

> -- " He was having some breathing difficulties and we called

Dr.husted

> in to see us at 1 am.... he ordered blood gasses which came out

> fine...shortly there after Larry started turning blue...the staff

on

> the 5th floor worked on him for nearly an hour but he was allready

> gone. " (Diane, Larry's widow)

>

>

> WHY DID LARRY DIE, I.E., WHO FAILED HIM?

>

> (WARNING: THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS STRONG OPINIONS. IF YOU ARE ONE

OF

> THE MANY PEOPLE ON THIS LIST WHO ARE RENDERED APOPLECTIC BY THE

> PUBLIC EXPRESSION OF OPINIONS CONTRARY TO YOUR OWN, PLEASE STOP

> READING NOW.)

>

> To repeat:

>

> WHO FAILED LARRY?

>

> 1. Dr. Husted failed him

>

> What the HELL was this man thinking, taking on a 686 pound patient

> with a BMI of 88.1 for his very FIRST BPD/DS procedure?

>

> 2. WE FAILED HIM!

>

> Who we? Yes WE!

>

> How? By being so EFFING scared of hurting someone's feelings that

we

> almost never discuss the hard truths about this surgery, (or if we

> do, the conversation is quickly shouted down).

>

> Here are some of those hard truths we don't talk about:

>

> 1. This surgery is technically difficult and, in inexperienced

> hands, extremely dangerous;

>

> 2. The DS has a steep learning curve, i.e., if you choose a

surgeon

> who has not performed many of the procedures, you GREATLY increase

> your chances of serious complications and/or death;

>

> 3. All DS surgeons are not equal. Some have performed the surgery

> so many times they could probably do it in their sleep, while

others

> are so wet behind the ears they probably need an instruction manual

> in the operating room;

>

> 4. Being a good surgeon requires much, much more than memorizing

the

> human anatomy and learning how to cut and stitch tissues and

organs.

> It takes, more than anything else, GOOD JUDGMENT -- which I define

as

> the ability to make decisions PRIOR to surgery such as to minimize

> the risk of that surgery, as well as the ability to make the right

> decision quickly when faced with a crisis in the operating room.

>

> 5. There is no correlation between how much a surgeon's patients

> like that surgeon and how capable that surgeon is. Nor is there

any

> correlation between how nice a surgeon is at the consult, or how

much

> time s/he spends with you, and how capable a surgeon s/he is.

>

>

> I could go on and on, but I won't. Instead, I'll leave you with a

> question.

>

> Do we care about our fellow MO folks? Do we care enough to caution

> them against doing something we know in our hearts is foolish or

> dangerous?

>

> Will we care enough about the next Larry to tell him DON'T GO TO AN

> INEXPERIENCED SURGEON -- DON'T BE FIRST -- DON'T BE A GUINEA PIG!

>

> Or will we just sit on our hands until s/he's dead or maimed, and

> then wring them in sadness?

>

> Think about it.

>

> Tom

>

> Panniculectomy, Dr. Anthone, 11/10/2000

> Open DS, Dr. Anthone, 03/30/2001

> 11/10/2000 . . . . . . 386 (Panniculectomy)

> 03/30/2001 . . . . . . 360 (DS)

> 04/19/2001 . . . . . . 338

> 05/03/2001 . . . . . . 328

> 05/18/2001 . . . . . . 316

> 06/03/2001 . . . . . . 301

> 06/15/2001 . . . . . . 299

> 06/25/2001 . . . . . . 293

> 07/03/2001 . . . . . . 286

> 07/16/2001 . . . . . . 278

> 07/23/2001 . . . . . . 276

> 07/30/2001 . . . . . . 275

> 08/06/2001 . . . . . . 272

> Goal Weight. . . . . . 185

> Lost So Far. . . . . . 114 Ugly Pounds

> Remainder to Goal. . . 87

> USC DS Support Group: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ds_usc>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/11/01 10:36:42 PM, duodenalswitch writes:

<< How? By being so EFFING scared of hurting someone's feelings that

we

> almost never discuss the hard truths about this surgery, (or if we

> do, the conversation is quickly shouted down).

>

> Here are some of those hard truths we don't talk about:

>>

Tom: I really don't know how you get the impression that we're too scared to

discuss the realities of the surgery. In many of my posts, I've talked about

people who have experienced complications from leaks, blockages, pnemonia and

even a month-long coma post-op. I've also mentioned that on a scale of 1-10,

the DS is considered an 8 (10 being the most complex open heart surgery).

Likewise, I think that others have also mentioned that the surgery is not to

be taken lightly and choosing one's surgeon is paramount to increasing the

odds of success and possibly minimizing complications.

Who shouts down the hard truths about the surgery? Those who have had severe

complications or even minor setbacks have shared their experiences with the

group. I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Perhaps there is a

tendancy of some post-ops to not want to 'frighten' pre-ops, but I am

certainly not one of them. I think there are others out me like there as

well who respond as honestly as possible. I personally have NOT experienced

complications (at least not up to now - I am fully aware that complications

can arise at any time in post-op life) and have had a really incredible

recovery to date. However, whenever I relay my experience I temper it with a

caution that I am not the norm and that others HAVE experienced more

difficulties than I.

I totally agree that these issues must be openly addressed and people really

have to understand all the possible outcomes and complications that could

occur. I don't think that informing people that a post-op DS (and someone

who I do not think was even a participant of this list by any means) passed

away and to direct condolences to his wife is in any way 'improper' or

'negligent' behavior.

As I mentioned before (and if you had read Larry's surgery comments page

thoroughly), the decision to switch to a DS was made immediately before his

surgery so I really don't think anyone could have advised Larry otherwise. I

don't think there's anything wrong with being angry about having anyone die

from surgery, especially if one feels that there was some form of negligence

or that the situation was in any way avoidable. I also don't think that

there is anything wrong with feeling overwhelmingly sad that such an event

could occur.

As a really tragic and bizarre twist of fate, someone reported today that:

08/11 05:35 PM

While Attending Larry Youngs Funeral at the gravesite 12 people were hit by

lightening, Gracen Larrys angel was one of those hit along with Larrys

brother and others. Some are in ICU gracen is in a room and being kept for

observation. She said shes really weak and tired they have her on oxygen and

so far all tests they have ran on her have come back negative. Dianne Larrys

wife was not hit. Please keep these people in your prayers if i hear anymore

i will update then . Cindy D     -- Cindy Ladewig

Larry's surgical page (where one CAN post condolences if one wants) can be

found at: http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/status.phtml?N=Y987203084

All the best,

lap ds with gallbladder removal

January 25, 2001

Dr. Gagner/Mt. Sinai/NYC

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/11/01 10:36:42 PM, duodenalswitch writes:

<< How? By being so EFFING scared of hurting someone's feelings that

we

> almost never discuss the hard truths about this surgery, (or if we

> do, the conversation is quickly shouted down).

>

> Here are some of those hard truths we don't talk about:

>>

Tom: I really don't know how you get the impression that we're too scared to

discuss the realities of the surgery. In many of my posts, I've talked about

people who have experienced complications from leaks, blockages, pnemonia and

even a month-long coma post-op. I've also mentioned that on a scale of 1-10,

the DS is considered an 8 (10 being the most complex open heart surgery).

Likewise, I think that others have also mentioned that the surgery is not to

be taken lightly and choosing one's surgeon is paramount to increasing the

odds of success and possibly minimizing complications.

Who shouts down the hard truths about the surgery? Those who have had severe

complications or even minor setbacks have shared their experiences with the

group. I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Perhaps there is a

tendancy of some post-ops to not want to 'frighten' pre-ops, but I am

certainly not one of them. I think there are others out me like there as

well who respond as honestly as possible. I personally have NOT experienced

complications (at least not up to now - I am fully aware that complications

can arise at any time in post-op life) and have had a really incredible

recovery to date. However, whenever I relay my experience I temper it with a

caution that I am not the norm and that others HAVE experienced more

difficulties than I.

I totally agree that these issues must be openly addressed and people really

have to understand all the possible outcomes and complications that could

occur. I don't think that informing people that a post-op DS (and someone

who I do not think was even a participant of this list by any means) passed

away and to direct condolences to his wife is in any way 'improper' or

'negligent' behavior.

As I mentioned before (and if you had read Larry's surgery comments page

thoroughly), the decision to switch to a DS was made immediately before his

surgery so I really don't think anyone could have advised Larry otherwise. I

don't think there's anything wrong with being angry about having anyone die

from surgery, especially if one feels that there was some form of negligence

or that the situation was in any way avoidable. I also don't think that

there is anything wrong with feeling overwhelmingly sad that such an event

could occur.

As a really tragic and bizarre twist of fate, someone reported today that:

08/11 05:35 PM

While Attending Larry Youngs Funeral at the gravesite 12 people were hit by

lightening, Gracen Larrys angel was one of those hit along with Larrys

brother and others. Some are in ICU gracen is in a room and being kept for

observation. She said shes really weak and tired they have her on oxygen and

so far all tests they have ran on her have come back negative. Dianne Larrys

wife was not hit. Please keep these people in your prayers if i hear anymore

i will update then . Cindy D     -- Cindy Ladewig

Larry's surgical page (where one CAN post condolences if one wants) can be

found at: http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/status.phtml?N=Y987203084

All the best,

lap ds with gallbladder removal

January 25, 2001

Dr. Gagner/Mt. Sinai/NYC

[Guest guest]

I have been reading the debate re: responsibility for Larry's death--

I think some are drawing some hasty and uninformed conclusions. In

reading some of the details about what happened--it sounds like he

threw a massive PE (pulmonary embolus)--they usually go suddenly blue

and crash--with no response to resicutation. The intial breathing

difficulty may have been a small one that cleared--that's why the

gases were ok. The next step they probably would have done is the

lung scan--but sounds like he coded before they could get to that.

Was an autopsy done--that would give a definitive answear? Absent of

that, it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the group, or anyone

else, especially for a decision that Larry and his wife made with

full knowledge of the circumstances. Hindsight is always 20/20,

foresight is nebulous at best.

Just my medical background responding here--I am truly sorry for the

loss of Larry--his wife must be devastated, she needs our love ans

support and not have to hear this blame game.

Pammi

>

> << How? By being so EFFING scared of hurting someone's feelings

that

> we

> > almost never discuss the hard truths about this surgery, (or if

we

> > do, the conversation is quickly shouted down).

> >

> > Here are some of those hard truths we don't talk about:

> >>

>

> Tom: I really don't know how you get the impression that we're too

scared to

> discuss the realities of the surgery. In many of my posts, I've

talked about

> people who have experienced complications from leaks, blockages,

pnemonia and

> even a month-long coma post-op. I've also mentioned that on a

scale of 1-10,

> the DS is considered an 8 (10 being the most complex open heart

surgery).

> Likewise, I think that others have also mentioned that the surgery

is not to

> be taken lightly and choosing one's surgeon is paramount to

increasing the

> odds of success and possibly minimizing complications.

>

> Who shouts down the hard truths about the surgery? Those who have

had severe

> complications or even minor setbacks have shared their experiences

with the

> group. I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Perhaps

there is a

> tendancy of some post-ops to not want to 'frighten' pre-ops, but I

am

> certainly not one of them. I think there are others out me like

there as

> well who respond as honestly as possible. I personally have NOT

experienced

> complications (at least not up to now - I am fully aware that

complications

> can arise at any time in post-op life) and have had a really

incredible

> recovery to date. However, whenever I relay my experience I temper

it with a

> caution that I am not the norm and that others HAVE experienced

more

> difficulties than I.

>

> I totally agree that these issues must be openly addressed and

people really

> have to understand all the possible outcomes and complications that

could

> occur. I don't think that informing people that a post-op DS (and

someone

> who I do not think was even a participant of this list by any

means) passed

> away and to direct condolences to his wife is in any way 'improper'

or

> 'negligent' behavior.

>

> As I mentioned before (and if you had read Larry's surgery comments

page

> thoroughly), the decision to switch to a DS was made immediately

before his

> surgery so I really don't think anyone could have advised Larry

otherwise. I

> don't think there's anything wrong with being angry about having

anyone die

> from surgery, especially if one feels that there was some form of

negligence

> or that the situation was in any way avoidable. I also don't think

that

> there is anything wrong with feeling overwhelmingly sad that such

an event

> could occur.

>

> As a really tragic and bizarre twist of fate, someone reported

today that:

> 08/11 05:35 PM

> While Attending Larry Youngs Funeral at the gravesite 12 people

were hit by

> lightening, Gracen Larrys angel was one of those hit along with

Larrys

> brother and others. Some are in ICU gracen is in a room and being

kept for

> observation. She said shes really weak and tired they have her on

oxygen and

> so far all tests they have ran on her have come back negative.

Dianne Larrys

> wife was not hit. Please keep these people in your prayers if i

hear anymore

> i will update then . Cindy D     -- Cindy Ladewig

>

> Larry's surgical page (where one CAN post condolences if one wants)

can be

> found at: http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/status.phtml?

N=Y987203084

>

> All the best,

>

> lap ds with gallbladder removal

> January 25, 2001

> Dr. Gagner/Mt. Sinai/NYC

[Guest guest]

I have been reading the debate re: responsibility for Larry's death--

I think some are drawing some hasty and uninformed conclusions. In

reading some of the details about what happened--it sounds like he

threw a massive PE (pulmonary embolus)--they usually go suddenly blue

and crash--with no response to resicutation. The intial breathing

difficulty may have been a small one that cleared--that's why the

gases were ok. The next step they probably would have done is the

lung scan--but sounds like he coded before they could get to that.

Was an autopsy done--that would give a definitive answear? Absent of

that, it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the group, or anyone

else, especially for a decision that Larry and his wife made with

full knowledge of the circumstances. Hindsight is always 20/20,

foresight is nebulous at best.

Just my medical background responding here--I am truly sorry for the

loss of Larry--his wife must be devastated, she needs our love ans

support and not have to hear this blame game.

Pammi

>

> << How? By being so EFFING scared of hurting someone's feelings

that

> we

> > almost never discuss the hard truths about this surgery, (or if

we

> > do, the conversation is quickly shouted down).

> >

> > Here are some of those hard truths we don't talk about:

> >>

>

> Tom: I really don't know how you get the impression that we're too

scared to

> discuss the realities of the surgery. In many of my posts, I've

talked about

> people who have experienced complications from leaks, blockages,

pnemonia and

> even a month-long coma post-op. I've also mentioned that on a

scale of 1-10,

> the DS is considered an 8 (10 being the most complex open heart

surgery).

> Likewise, I think that others have also mentioned that the surgery

is not to

> be taken lightly and choosing one's surgeon is paramount to

increasing the

> odds of success and possibly minimizing complications.

>

> Who shouts down the hard truths about the surgery? Those who have

had severe

> complications or even minor setbacks have shared their experiences

with the

> group. I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Perhaps

there is a

> tendancy of some post-ops to not want to 'frighten' pre-ops, but I

am

> certainly not one of them. I think there are others out me like

there as

> well who respond as honestly as possible. I personally have NOT

experienced

> complications (at least not up to now - I am fully aware that

complications

> can arise at any time in post-op life) and have had a really

incredible

> recovery to date. However, whenever I relay my experience I temper

it with a

> caution that I am not the norm and that others HAVE experienced

more

> difficulties than I.

>

> I totally agree that these issues must be openly addressed and

people really

> have to understand all the possible outcomes and complications that

could

> occur. I don't think that informing people that a post-op DS (and

someone

> who I do not think was even a participant of this list by any

means) passed

> away and to direct condolences to his wife is in any way 'improper'

or

> 'negligent' behavior.

>

> As I mentioned before (and if you had read Larry's surgery comments

page

> thoroughly), the decision to switch to a DS was made immediately

before his

> surgery so I really don't think anyone could have advised Larry

otherwise. I

> don't think there's anything wrong with being angry about having

anyone die

> from surgery, especially if one feels that there was some form of

negligence

> or that the situation was in any way avoidable. I also don't think

that

> there is anything wrong with feeling overwhelmingly sad that such

an event

> could occur.

>

> As a really tragic and bizarre twist of fate, someone reported

today that:

> 08/11 05:35 PM

> While Attending Larry Youngs Funeral at the gravesite 12 people

were hit by

> lightening, Gracen Larrys angel was one of those hit along with

Larrys

> brother and others. Some are in ICU gracen is in a room and being

kept for

> observation. She said shes really weak and tired they have her on

oxygen and

> so far all tests they have ran on her have come back negative.

Dianne Larrys

> wife was not hit. Please keep these people in your prayers if i

hear anymore

> i will update then . Cindy D     -- Cindy Ladewig

>

> Larry's surgical page (where one CAN post condolences if one wants)

can be

> found at: http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/status.phtml?

N=Y987203084

>

> All the best,

>

> lap ds with gallbladder removal

> January 25, 2001

> Dr. Gagner/Mt. Sinai/NYC

[Guest guest]

Re: Looking at Death............

As a really tragic and bizarre twist of fate, someone reported today that:

08/11 05:35 PM

While Attending Larry Youngs Funeral at the gravesite 12 people were hit by

lightening, Gracen Larrys angel was one of those hit along with Larrys

brother and others. Some are in ICU gracen is in a room and being kept for

observation. She said shes really weak and tired they have her on oxygen and

so far all tests they have ran on her have come back negative. Dianne Larrys

wife was not hit. Please keep these people in your prayers if i hear anymore

i will update then . Cindy D -- Cindy Ladewig

How completely bizarre! What in the world? It's almost like Mother Nature

showed her anger at the loss of this man so early in his life. What a freak

accident. I can hardly believe it. How much more can his family and

friends take?! I sure hope they have a good luck streak sometime soon.

[Guest guest]

Re: Looking at Death............

As a really tragic and bizarre twist of fate, someone reported today that:

08/11 05:35 PM

While Attending Larry Youngs Funeral at the gravesite 12 people were hit by

lightening, Gracen Larrys angel was one of those hit along with Larrys

brother and others. Some are in ICU gracen is in a room and being kept for

observation. She said shes really weak and tired they have her on oxygen and

so far all tests they have ran on her have come back negative. Dianne Larrys

wife was not hit. Please keep these people in your prayers if i hear anymore

i will update then . Cindy D -- Cindy Ladewig

How completely bizarre! What in the world? It's almost like Mother Nature

showed her anger at the loss of this man so early in his life. What a freak

accident. I can hardly believe it. How much more can his family and

friends take?! I sure hope they have a good luck streak sometime soon.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/11/01 9:45:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

psbilyeu@... writes:

> Was an autopsy done--that would give a definitive answear? Absent of

> that, it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the group, or anyone

> else, especially for a decision that Larry and his wife made with

> full knowledge of the circumstances. Hindsight is always 20/20,

> foresight is nebulous at best.

>

>

I don't think many of us are actually condemning anyone...I think it was more

to bring up the ideas and get everyone to think about the situation in more

depth. I'm sure Larry had good health care, but it does concern me that a

dr. who's never done the DS before would choose a patient that weighed close

to 700 lbs. We all know the heavier you are the harder it is to go thru

surgery and many surgeon's won't do the surgery unless you lose some weight.

I'm larger than most having the surgery and I was terrified I'd have

complications. I feel very fortunate I had Dr. Baltasar who has had lots of

experience with larger size people. The week before my surgery he'd done a

man that weighed 450 lbs and I know he's done some even larger.

And you're right, one of the risks is a PE and that isn't to my knowledge

something that can be predicted or even stopped...its something to watch for.

It maybe that Larry would have had that no matter who did the surgery...who

knows. I think if anything this just made me realize how much we have to

take control of our destiny and make sure we are informed and knowledgable

before going for something like this surgery.

Pammi....I think you're lucky to have the medical background. I wish I did.

I know I have researched alot and gotten alot of useful information, but it

is never enough. I have a gal in my support group that is of rather low

intelligence and she's trying so hard to understand everything about this

surgery. It scared me to see that she was just going to do it and had no

clue what to expect or to do afterwards. My whole group has worked with her

to try to get her clear on these things. I give her credit, she's really

trying and its not easy for her. She is a very simple person and things do

not come easy to her...but she knows to succeed, she has to learn.

Education is a huge thing when it comes to surgery and I think Tom was trying

to make us all think about what happened, why and how to not have it happen

again. I thought he made some good points, and if nothing else, made me do

some deep thinking...which is always a good thing!

~~* AJ *~~

Post op 7/24/01

self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain

07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1

08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~

Check out the

Bellingham Support for WLS

WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/11/01 9:45:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

psbilyeu@... writes:

> Was an autopsy done--that would give a definitive answear? Absent of

> that, it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the group, or anyone

> else, especially for a decision that Larry and his wife made with

> full knowledge of the circumstances. Hindsight is always 20/20,

> foresight is nebulous at best.

>

>

I don't think many of us are actually condemning anyone...I think it was more

to bring up the ideas and get everyone to think about the situation in more

depth. I'm sure Larry had good health care, but it does concern me that a

dr. who's never done the DS before would choose a patient that weighed close

to 700 lbs. We all know the heavier you are the harder it is to go thru

surgery and many surgeon's won't do the surgery unless you lose some weight.

I'm larger than most having the surgery and I was terrified I'd have

complications. I feel very fortunate I had Dr. Baltasar who has had lots of

experience with larger size people. The week before my surgery he'd done a

man that weighed 450 lbs and I know he's done some even larger.

And you're right, one of the risks is a PE and that isn't to my knowledge

something that can be predicted or even stopped...its something to watch for.

It maybe that Larry would have had that no matter who did the surgery...who

knows. I think if anything this just made me realize how much we have to

take control of our destiny and make sure we are informed and knowledgable

before going for something like this surgery.

Pammi....I think you're lucky to have the medical background. I wish I did.

I know I have researched alot and gotten alot of useful information, but it

is never enough. I have a gal in my support group that is of rather low

intelligence and she's trying so hard to understand everything about this

surgery. It scared me to see that she was just going to do it and had no

clue what to expect or to do afterwards. My whole group has worked with her

to try to get her clear on these things. I give her credit, she's really

trying and its not easy for her. She is a very simple person and things do

not come easy to her...but she knows to succeed, she has to learn.

Education is a huge thing when it comes to surgery and I think Tom was trying

to make us all think about what happened, why and how to not have it happen

again. I thought he made some good points, and if nothing else, made me do

some deep thinking...which is always a good thing!

~~* AJ *~~

Post op 7/24/01

self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain

07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1

08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~

Check out the

Bellingham Support for WLS

WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com

[Guest guest]

> I think some are drawing some hasty

> and uninformed conclusions.

> it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the

> group, or anyone else, especially for a

> decision that Larry and his wife made with

> full knowledge of the circumstances.

This seems to be everybody's favorite fallacy these days -- both on

this list and in society. The argument goes like this:

We don't know with certainty that Doctor Doe's negligence, stupidity,

ineptitude, carelessness, drug habit, psychotic delusions, or

whatever, caused the death/maiming/crippling/whatever of Patient Foe,

THEREFORE, we must all withold judgment and treat that doctor as

though s/he is every bit as capable, talented, concientious, etc., as

any other doctor.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it attempts to impose

a public, (i.e., legalistic), standard in a private realm of decision-

making. If this were a court proceeding, rather than a

support/information group, this argument would make sense. But the

decision whether or not to entrust ones life to a particular surgeon

simply is not subject to any such standard.

As to the case of Larry Young & Dr. Husted, it's true that the

information currently available to us is incomplete. But so what?

Chances are we will never have enough information to make a truly

" informed, " absolutely correct, judgment. Luckily, we don't need to

make such a perfect judgment.

You see, it's not our job to prove Dr. Husted unworthy of our trust

before rejecting him. No, not at all. In fact, such an argument

turns logic on its head.

In truth, it is Dr. Husted's responsibility to prove himself worthy

of our trust. (We are the ones whose lives are at stake after all.)

If he cannot do so, then we are well within our rights not only to

reject him, but to advise others to reject him as well.

Tom

[Guest guest]

> I think some are drawing some hasty

> and uninformed conclusions.

> it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the

> group, or anyone else, especially for a

> decision that Larry and his wife made with

> full knowledge of the circumstances.

This seems to be everybody's favorite fallacy these days -- both on

this list and in society. The argument goes like this:

We don't know with certainty that Doctor Doe's negligence, stupidity,

ineptitude, carelessness, drug habit, psychotic delusions, or

whatever, caused the death/maiming/crippling/whatever of Patient Foe,

THEREFORE, we must all withold judgment and treat that doctor as

though s/he is every bit as capable, talented, concientious, etc., as

any other doctor.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it attempts to impose

a public, (i.e., legalistic), standard in a private realm of decision-

making. If this were a court proceeding, rather than a

support/information group, this argument would make sense. But the

decision whether or not to entrust ones life to a particular surgeon

simply is not subject to any such standard.

As to the case of Larry Young & Dr. Husted, it's true that the

information currently available to us is incomplete. But so what?

Chances are we will never have enough information to make a truly

" informed, " absolutely correct, judgment. Luckily, we don't need to

make such a perfect judgment.

You see, it's not our job to prove Dr. Husted unworthy of our trust

before rejecting him. No, not at all. In fact, such an argument

turns logic on its head.

In truth, it is Dr. Husted's responsibility to prove himself worthy

of our trust. (We are the ones whose lives are at stake after all.)

If he cannot do so, then we are well within our rights not only to

reject him, but to advise others to reject him as well.

Tom

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/12/01 5:45:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

starshine1778@... writes:

> a much better TEMPORARY solution

I can respect what you are saying...and maybe that would have been a good

alternative. Who knows. Maybe no matter what had been done this PE would

have happened. I'm not a medical guru but I know that the heavier we are the

more challenge to our surgery simply because we dont heal as well, have more

risk of complications etc. I hear alot of surgeons telling people on my

400plus list that they have to lose before the surgery...for their own

safety, especially when over 500 lbs. I don't know if the lap band would be

a good alternative since its still surgery but I do have to agree it would be

worth looking into. I feel all the surgeries have a positive to them, and

the only one deciding what is right is the person having surgery. We all

know ourselves. I didn't feel the RNY was right for me because I don't

follow rules well and there were alot more with the RNY than the DS. I'm

better at taking supplements, and trying to eat more protein. The Lap Band

didn't seem right becasue I didnt like the statistics. I have 200+ to lose

and I didn't feel it would work for me. So we all make our own decisions.

I'm sure that Dr. Hustad is a good surgeon. Let's be honest, no surgeon

wants to lose patients. Some may be more gifted or talented, but I think

most do the best they can and do not go for a patient they don't feel they

are capable of helping. A gal in my support group just had her surgery

postponed two weeks because her surgeon (she's having an RNY since its the

only thing DSHS will pay for here ) wants his partner in town in case of

problems because she is probably heavier than I am and he's not done any

cases of that size. So he's taking precautions, making sure the experience

is in the room when he does the surgery and at the same time, he's advancing

his own skills and experience.

The bottom line is there is no right or wrong to the surgeries other than

making sure we the patient, know our stuff. In the end, we decide and

hopefully its based on knowledge, research and soul searching decisions.

~~* AJ *~~

Post op 7/24/01

self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain

07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1

08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~

Check out the

Bellingham Support for WLS

WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/12/01 5:45:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

starshine1778@... writes:

> a much better TEMPORARY solution

I can respect what you are saying...and maybe that would have been a good

alternative. Who knows. Maybe no matter what had been done this PE would

have happened. I'm not a medical guru but I know that the heavier we are the

more challenge to our surgery simply because we dont heal as well, have more

risk of complications etc. I hear alot of surgeons telling people on my

400plus list that they have to lose before the surgery...for their own

safety, especially when over 500 lbs. I don't know if the lap band would be

a good alternative since its still surgery but I do have to agree it would be

worth looking into. I feel all the surgeries have a positive to them, and

the only one deciding what is right is the person having surgery. We all

know ourselves. I didn't feel the RNY was right for me because I don't

follow rules well and there were alot more with the RNY than the DS. I'm

better at taking supplements, and trying to eat more protein. The Lap Band

didn't seem right becasue I didnt like the statistics. I have 200+ to lose

and I didn't feel it would work for me. So we all make our own decisions.

I'm sure that Dr. Hustad is a good surgeon. Let's be honest, no surgeon

wants to lose patients. Some may be more gifted or talented, but I think

most do the best they can and do not go for a patient they don't feel they

are capable of helping. A gal in my support group just had her surgery

postponed two weeks because her surgeon (she's having an RNY since its the

only thing DSHS will pay for here ) wants his partner in town in case of

problems because she is probably heavier than I am and he's not done any

cases of that size. So he's taking precautions, making sure the experience

is in the room when he does the surgery and at the same time, he's advancing

his own skills and experience.

The bottom line is there is no right or wrong to the surgeries other than

making sure we the patient, know our stuff. In the end, we decide and

hopefully its based on knowledge, research and soul searching decisions.

~~* AJ *~~

Post op 7/24/01

self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain

07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1

08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~

Check out the

Bellingham Support for WLS

WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com

[Guest guest]

WOUND INFECTION can happen with the most experienced of surgeons.

This man was a prime candidate for the new lap band procedure. I

read many people have the surgery in 2 parts but that still does not

negate the wound infection part of it. Super Morbidly Obese people

have problems like that because fat liquifying in the incision line.

The lapband is a 1 hour procedure and you go home the next day. The

surgeon monitors the band every 6-8 weeks. The inner surface of the

band can be inflated with saline solution or deflated to modify the

size of the narrowing, just like a blood pressure cuff. The band is

connected by tubing to a reservoir, which is placed well under the

skin and fat, during surgery. This reservoir cannot be seen, only

felt when you push on your abdomen. After the operation, the surgeon

can control the amount of saline in the band by entering the

reservoir with a fine needle through the skin. Because quite

honestly, as great as the DS is, it is a really hard, complicated

surgery that carries potential complications that can result in

death. And when it goes well, it is fantastic, as you know. But when

there are complications, it really sucks, for both the patient, the

family and the surgeon. Although the band is not perfect and has

its complications such as slippage and erosion, it is not frequent at

all, and more importantly, these are not life threatening

complications, such as a leak. And if a person is 500-700 pounds it

is a much better temporary solution to losing weight to get down to a

less dangerous weight to have the DS surgery. Before I get bombed

for even mentioning the band on this site by people that have had the

band and had complications, remember that this is not SILICONE nor is

it even remotely like the bands of the past. This is a very new band

and it has been approved by the FDA (after considerable testing) for

weight loss surgery and is monitored bi-monthly by the surgeon. I

still think it is a much better TEMPORARY solution to reach a better

weight for having major surgery.

http://www.med.nyu.edu/bariatric/operations/lapband.html

Tom mentioned education on the complications and surgical skills

would have helped this man with his decision on a surgeon. But after

lurking on this site for quite a while I have to say that the only

education that is accepted here is the main school of thought. No

one wants to hear anything remotely contrary to the way they think

and if God forbid it goes against public OPINION, the poster is

trashed for everything in the post from spelling to punctuation. If

we open our minds to other procedures we are condeming our own choice

of surgery. I would not have considered the lapband for my surgery

as I was 55 BMI but for those that are 60+ or 40- I think

consideration should be made.

Our only hope lies beyond the stars,

StarShine

[Guest guest]

WOUND INFECTION can happen with the most experienced of surgeons.

This man was a prime candidate for the new lap band procedure. I

read many people have the surgery in 2 parts but that still does not

negate the wound infection part of it. Super Morbidly Obese people

have problems like that because fat liquifying in the incision line.

The lapband is a 1 hour procedure and you go home the next day. The

surgeon monitors the band every 6-8 weeks. The inner surface of the

band can be inflated with saline solution or deflated to modify the

size of the narrowing, just like a blood pressure cuff. The band is

connected by tubing to a reservoir, which is placed well under the

skin and fat, during surgery. This reservoir cannot be seen, only

felt when you push on your abdomen. After the operation, the surgeon

can control the amount of saline in the band by entering the

reservoir with a fine needle through the skin. Because quite

honestly, as great as the DS is, it is a really hard, complicated

surgery that carries potential complications that can result in

death. And when it goes well, it is fantastic, as you know. But when

there are complications, it really sucks, for both the patient, the

family and the surgeon. Although the band is not perfect and has

its complications such as slippage and erosion, it is not frequent at

all, and more importantly, these are not life threatening

complications, such as a leak. And if a person is 500-700 pounds it

is a much better temporary solution to losing weight to get down to a

less dangerous weight to have the DS surgery. Before I get bombed

for even mentioning the band on this site by people that have had the

band and had complications, remember that this is not SILICONE nor is

it even remotely like the bands of the past. This is a very new band

and it has been approved by the FDA (after considerable testing) for

weight loss surgery and is monitored bi-monthly by the surgeon. I

still think it is a much better TEMPORARY solution to reach a better

weight for having major surgery.

http://www.med.nyu.edu/bariatric/operations/lapband.html

Tom mentioned education on the complications and surgical skills

would have helped this man with his decision on a surgeon. But after

lurking on this site for quite a while I have to say that the only

education that is accepted here is the main school of thought. No

one wants to hear anything remotely contrary to the way they think

and if God forbid it goes against public OPINION, the poster is

trashed for everything in the post from spelling to punctuation. If

we open our minds to other procedures we are condeming our own choice

of surgery. I would not have considered the lapband for my surgery

as I was 55 BMI but for those that are 60+ or 40- I think

consideration should be made.

Our only hope lies beyond the stars,

StarShine

[Guest guest]

So why blame the list---?? In actuality you're blaming Larry and his

wife who made the choice to go through with it. He wasn't on this

list to benefit from our " profound wisdom " , he originally was having

a fobi. Many of us would of went screaming from that choice of

a " green surgeon " , and would vocally encourage others in the same

vein--but where did we have opportunity to do so?

I agree with you re: going with a surgeon with little or no

experience--and that is why I have selected the doc I have. There

are unfortunately some who agree to take this risk of being in

the " learning curve " , " someone has to be the 1st " .

I have read some profiles on AMOS that make me shake my head---one

was a man who was told outright he had only a 40% chance of leaving

the hospital---he went through with it--has lost 450+ pounds--had

multible other surgeries and comps, but lived to tell the tale.

Surely, Larry and his wife did weigh these factors and risks, we have

to accept their choice, even it seems to fly in the face of reason.

The questions and reservations you express are valid--but they are

needed before the surgery. Not every patient is as savvy or guarded,

and we can't accept responsibility for everyone's choice, lack of

information or limited discernment.

If he indeed died from an embolus, this is something that would have

happened irrespective of the dr, or procedure done. For all we know,

the DS was flawless. If his wife and family think there was an error

of judgement or skill---they have to initiate the inquiry--I'm sure

there are many who will encourage that--as well as myself--more so to

see what there is to learn from Larry's death--I certainly don't rule

out an immodest surgeon who bit off more than he could chew.

Lashing out just makes everyone run for cover and even try to " cover

up " , even if there's nothing to hide--you've put them all on the

defensive, thereby limiting what you hope to accomplish--get the real

answear about what happened and prevent the same in the future.

That's all folks!!

Pammi

>

> > I think some are drawing some hasty

> > and uninformed conclusions.

>

> > it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the

> > group, or anyone else, especially for a

> > decision that Larry and his wife made with

> > full knowledge of the circumstances.

>

> This seems to be everybody's favorite fallacy these days -- both on

> this list and in society. The argument goes like this:

>

> We don't know with certainty that Doctor Doe's negligence,

stupidity,

> ineptitude, carelessness, drug habit, psychotic delusions, or

> whatever, caused the death/maiming/crippling/whatever of Patient

Foe,

> THEREFORE, we must all withold judgment and treat that doctor as

> though s/he is every bit as capable, talented, concientious, etc.,

as

> any other doctor.

>

> The problem with this line of reasoning is that it attempts to

impose

> a public, (i.e., legalistic), standard in a private realm of

decision-

> making. If this were a court proceeding, rather than a

> support/information group, this argument would make sense. But the

> decision whether or not to entrust ones life to a particular

surgeon

> simply is not subject to any such standard.

>

>

> As to the case of Larry Young & Dr. Husted, it's true that the

> information currently available to us is incomplete. But so what?

> Chances are we will never have enough information to make a truly

> " informed, " absolutely correct, judgment. Luckily, we don't need

to

> make such a perfect judgment.

>

> You see, it's not our job to prove Dr. Husted unworthy of our trust

> before rejecting him. No, not at all. In fact, such an argument

> turns logic on its head.

>

> In truth, it is Dr. Husted's responsibility to prove himself worthy

> of our trust. (We are the ones whose lives are at stake after

all.)

> If he cannot do so, then we are well within our rights not only to

> reject him, but to advise others to reject him as well.

>

> Tom

[Guest guest]

So why blame the list---?? In actuality you're blaming Larry and his

wife who made the choice to go through with it. He wasn't on this

list to benefit from our " profound wisdom " , he originally was having

a fobi. Many of us would of went screaming from that choice of

a " green surgeon " , and would vocally encourage others in the same

vein--but where did we have opportunity to do so?

I agree with you re: going with a surgeon with little or no

experience--and that is why I have selected the doc I have. There

are unfortunately some who agree to take this risk of being in

the " learning curve " , " someone has to be the 1st " .

I have read some profiles on AMOS that make me shake my head---one

was a man who was told outright he had only a 40% chance of leaving

the hospital---he went through with it--has lost 450+ pounds--had

multible other surgeries and comps, but lived to tell the tale.

Surely, Larry and his wife did weigh these factors and risks, we have

to accept their choice, even it seems to fly in the face of reason.

The questions and reservations you express are valid--but they are

needed before the surgery. Not every patient is as savvy or guarded,

and we can't accept responsibility for everyone's choice, lack of

information or limited discernment.

If he indeed died from an embolus, this is something that would have

happened irrespective of the dr, or procedure done. For all we know,

the DS was flawless. If his wife and family think there was an error

of judgement or skill---they have to initiate the inquiry--I'm sure

there are many who will encourage that--as well as myself--more so to

see what there is to learn from Larry's death--I certainly don't rule

out an immodest surgeon who bit off more than he could chew.

Lashing out just makes everyone run for cover and even try to " cover

up " , even if there's nothing to hide--you've put them all on the

defensive, thereby limiting what you hope to accomplish--get the real

answear about what happened and prevent the same in the future.

That's all folks!!

Pammi

>

> > I think some are drawing some hasty

> > and uninformed conclusions.

>

> > it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the

> > group, or anyone else, especially for a

> > decision that Larry and his wife made with

> > full knowledge of the circumstances.

>

> This seems to be everybody's favorite fallacy these days -- both on

> this list and in society. The argument goes like this:

>

> We don't know with certainty that Doctor Doe's negligence,

stupidity,

> ineptitude, carelessness, drug habit, psychotic delusions, or

> whatever, caused the death/maiming/crippling/whatever of Patient

Foe,

> THEREFORE, we must all withold judgment and treat that doctor as

> though s/he is every bit as capable, talented, concientious, etc.,

as

> any other doctor.

>

> The problem with this line of reasoning is that it attempts to

impose

> a public, (i.e., legalistic), standard in a private realm of

decision-

> making. If this were a court proceeding, rather than a

> support/information group, this argument would make sense. But the

> decision whether or not to entrust ones life to a particular

surgeon

> simply is not subject to any such standard.

>

>

> As to the case of Larry Young & Dr. Husted, it's true that the

> information currently available to us is incomplete. But so what?

> Chances are we will never have enough information to make a truly

> " informed, " absolutely correct, judgment. Luckily, we don't need

to

> make such a perfect judgment.

>

> You see, it's not our job to prove Dr. Husted unworthy of our trust

> before rejecting him. No, not at all. In fact, such an argument

> turns logic on its head.

>

> In truth, it is Dr. Husted's responsibility to prove himself worthy

> of our trust. (We are the ones whose lives are at stake after

all.)

> If he cannot do so, then we are well within our rights not only to

> reject him, but to advise others to reject him as well.

>

> Tom

[Guest guest]

His opening words were that everyone " failed " Larry. I agree that

there were uneeded risks taken, perhaps even decisions made in haste

and in hindsight not wise--both by the surgeon and Larry.

I for one would'nt hesitate to tell a person considering this surgery

to steer away from the inexperienced doc, but this list to my

knowledge didn't have that opportunity. SO, why say we failed him?

If anyone here is considering Dr. Husted--I think they now have fair

warning--and need to dig deeper. But some won't dig--we can throw in

our .02, educate them as best we can--but they have the

responsibility of their choice. As an educated proffesional it makes

me shudder, the illadvised choices people make---all we can do is

educate the next one a little better, but we can't accept the fault

of poor judgement.

This list is an incredible asset to those willing to seek out

information--and I think it is given freely--and without censure to

those who come looking---if they don't look, we can't blame ourselves.

Thanks!!

Pammi

> In a message dated 8/11/01 9:45:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> psbilyeu@y... writes:

>

>

> > Was an autopsy done--that would give a definitive answear?

Absent of

> > that, it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the group, or anyone

> > else, especially for a decision that Larry and his wife made with

> > full knowledge of the circumstances. Hindsight is always 20/20,

> > foresight is nebulous at best.

> >

> >

>

> I don't think many of us are actually condemning anyone...I think

it was more

> to bring up the ideas and get everyone to think about the situation

in more

> depth. I'm sure Larry had good health care, but it does concern me

that a

> dr. who's never done the DS before would choose a patient that

weighed close

> to 700 lbs. We all know the heavier you are the harder it is to go

thru

> surgery and many surgeon's won't do the surgery unless you lose

some weight.

> I'm larger than most having the surgery and I was terrified I'd

have

> complications. I feel very fortunate I had Dr. Baltasar who has

had lots of

> experience with larger size people. The week before my surgery

he'd done a

> man that weighed 450 lbs and I know he's done some even larger.

>

> And you're right, one of the risks is a PE and that isn't to my

knowledge

> something that can be predicted or even stopped...its something to

watch for.

> It maybe that Larry would have had that no matter who did the

surgery...who

> knows. I think if anything this just made me realize how much we

have to

> take control of our destiny and make sure we are informed and

knowledgable

> before going for something like this surgery.

>

> Pammi....I think you're lucky to have the medical background. I

wish I did.

> I know I have researched alot and gotten alot of useful

information, but it

> is never enough. I have a gal in my support group that is of

rather low

> intelligence and she's trying so hard to understand everything

about this

> surgery. It scared me to see that she was just going to do it and

had no

> clue what to expect or to do afterwards. My whole group has worked

with her

> to try to get her clear on these things. I give her credit, she's

really

> trying and its not easy for her. She is a very simple person and

things do

> not come easy to her...but she knows to succeed, she has to learn.

>

> Education is a huge thing when it comes to surgery and I think Tom

was trying

> to make us all think about what happened, why and how to not have

it happen

> again. I thought he made some good points, and if nothing else,

made me do

> some deep thinking...which is always a good thing!

>

> ~~* AJ *~~

> Post op 7/24/01

> self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain

> 07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1

> 08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~

>

> Check out the

> Bellingham Support for WLS

> WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

His opening words were that everyone " failed " Larry. I agree that

there were uneeded risks taken, perhaps even decisions made in haste

and in hindsight not wise--both by the surgeon and Larry.

I for one would'nt hesitate to tell a person considering this surgery

to steer away from the inexperienced doc, but this list to my

knowledge didn't have that opportunity. SO, why say we failed him?

If anyone here is considering Dr. Husted--I think they now have fair

warning--and need to dig deeper. But some won't dig--we can throw in

our .02, educate them as best we can--but they have the

responsibility of their choice. As an educated proffesional it makes

me shudder, the illadvised choices people make---all we can do is

educate the next one a little better, but we can't accept the fault

of poor judgement.

This list is an incredible asset to those willing to seek out

information--and I think it is given freely--and without censure to

those who come looking---if they don't look, we can't blame ourselves.

Thanks!!

Pammi

> In a message dated 8/11/01 9:45:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

> psbilyeu@y... writes:

>

>

> > Was an autopsy done--that would give a definitive answear?

Absent of

> > that, it is presumptuous to condemn the Dr., the group, or anyone

> > else, especially for a decision that Larry and his wife made with

> > full knowledge of the circumstances. Hindsight is always 20/20,

> > foresight is nebulous at best.

> >

> >

>

> I don't think many of us are actually condemning anyone...I think

it was more

> to bring up the ideas and get everyone to think about the situation

in more

> depth. I'm sure Larry had good health care, but it does concern me

that a

> dr. who's never done the DS before would choose a patient that

weighed close

> to 700 lbs. We all know the heavier you are the harder it is to go

thru

> surgery and many surgeon's won't do the surgery unless you lose

some weight.

> I'm larger than most having the surgery and I was terrified I'd

have

> complications. I feel very fortunate I had Dr. Baltasar who has

had lots of

> experience with larger size people. The week before my surgery

he'd done a

> man that weighed 450 lbs and I know he's done some even larger.

>

> And you're right, one of the risks is a PE and that isn't to my

knowledge

> something that can be predicted or even stopped...its something to

watch for.

> It maybe that Larry would have had that no matter who did the

surgery...who

> knows. I think if anything this just made me realize how much we

have to

> take control of our destiny and make sure we are informed and

knowledgable

> before going for something like this surgery.

>

> Pammi....I think you're lucky to have the medical background. I

wish I did.

> I know I have researched alot and gotten alot of useful

information, but it

> is never enough. I have a gal in my support group that is of

rather low

> intelligence and she's trying so hard to understand everything

about this

> surgery. It scared me to see that she was just going to do it and

had no

> clue what to expect or to do afterwards. My whole group has worked

with her

> to try to get her clear on these things. I give her credit, she's

really

> trying and its not easy for her. She is a very simple person and

things do

> not come easy to her...but she knows to succeed, she has to learn.

>

> Education is a huge thing when it comes to surgery and I think Tom

was trying

> to make us all think about what happened, why and how to not have

it happen

> again. I thought he made some good points, and if nothing else,

made me do

> some deep thinking...which is always a good thing!

>

> ~~* AJ *~~

> Post op 7/24/01

> self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain

> 07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1

> 08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~

>

> Check out the

> Bellingham Support for WLS

> WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> This man was a prime candidate for the new lap band procedure.

I agree completely. The lap band or perhaps the new intragastric

balloon, (which is manufactured by the same company as the lap band,

but which is still someplace in the testing phase/s), should

definately be considered for very large patients.

Tom

[Guest guest]

> This man was a prime candidate for the new lap band procedure.

I agree completely. The lap band or perhaps the new intragastric

balloon, (which is manufactured by the same company as the lap band,

but which is still someplace in the testing phase/s), should

definately be considered for very large patients.

Tom

[Guest guest]

Hey, go easy on Dr. H. He truely wanted to help this man, and that's the

spirit that I find wonderful.

This is a really serious surgery, and everyone should realize that the

greater your BMI, the amount of

experience of your surgeon play a big factor in its success and one's own

ultimate recovery from this.

It is easy to point fingers, to call people on the carpet, but it is my

opinion we are ultimately the final

responsibility for the outcome of this surgery in many ways. People only

want to help us, and I am very grateful

that there are some surgeons out there who are willing to take on the risks

we present to them. We also have

to do some work, some research and go into this knowing ALL of the risks.

It is logical to next point a finger at Larry himself and say, " Good Lord,

your BMI was 80+, what were you thinking using

a surgeon doing this for the first time " ?!? However, I am sure Larry felt

he did not have much of a choice and had a very high desire for a surgical

decision. He, like a lot of us, were/are backed into a corner. Sometimes we

can't see the the forest through the tree's and make decisions that are very

risky. Fortunately many of our risk takers have had positive results but

very sadly Larry did not.

In my opinion I belive that it is nobody's responsibility to " warn " others.

When we offer our advice that's all we can do, we can't always expect the

recipient of that advice to act upon it. Even if several dozen people wrote

to Larry privately or publicly, I'm not sure it would have changed his mind.

If I were in his shoes, I think I would have made the same decision to go

forward. Not every area of the country has good access to experienced

bariatric physicians. However, I don't think it was the skill of the

surgeon based on the facts I've read. Infection is infection, and sometimes

there is not much you can do.

Thanks for reading my $.02

Nahodil

Triangle, VA

BMI 47

BPD/DS Dr. Elariny

INOVA Fairfax Hospital, VA

Pre-Op 10/1/01

Looking at Death............

Tom,

I had never heard about Larry, but when I read about his untimely

death, I did read his web pages and realized his story could have

been any of our stories! That was and is so scarey it makes one turn

away emotionaly and pyshologicaly from looking in the mirror at our

owm mortality. I am sure most DSers who read of his death, sighed

deep down, and took a quick thank God it was not me!

700 pounds shortens the odds, new procedures for a surgeon can never

can be as good as those with much experience, but I would just like

to think that Larry on that day, in that place, with these

circumstances...it was just not meant to be. What is...is.

This is why I need to get to a healthy weight, and picked the finest

docter and hopital I could......WE ALL WANT AND NEED TO LIVE.

May Larry and those that have lost their lives in their noble pursuit

to live, and to their grieving families, I am sure I speak for this

whole list....our deep sympathy.

dan

> Hi all:

>

> I am quite disappointed by the reaction of the membership of this

> list to the death of Larry Young. It's all well and fine to offer

> our condolences and wring our collective hands with sadness, but

that

> doesn't do Larry a bit of good, does it? At this point, you may

well

> be thinking, " Obviously it doesn't do Larry any good Tom, (you

> A$$HOLE), the man is DEAD -- show some respect! "

>

> Go ahead and label me the a$$hole of the century if you want, but

my

> reaction to Larry's death is not so much sadness as ANGER and a

> desire to know WHY.

>

> WHY DID THIS FORTY-YEAR OLD MAN DIE?

>

>

> Here are the facts I have been able to collect:

>

> 1. Regarding Larry

>

> Age: 40

> Weight: 686 pounds

> BMI: 88.1

> Co-Morbidities: sleep apnea, joint pain, mobility limited

> Spouse: Diane

>

>

> 2. Surgeon: Dr. Husted, Nashville, TN

>

> Experience:

>

> -- Doctor's website mentions only Fobi Pouch

> <http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/hustedmd/>

>

> -- According to Obesityhelp.com, Dr. Husted has performed more than

> 400 open RNY's, and cranks them out at a rate of 30 per month.

> <http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/mdcomments.phtml?

> N=941980556>

>

> -- According to Theresa's notice about Larry's death, this was Dr.

> Husted's FIRST BPD/DS.

>

>

> 3. Larry's comments about Dr. Husted

>

> " When we got into see Dr. Husted, we are immeadetly

> at ease with him. He really seems to love helping

> people with this surgery. We talked about my sleep

> apnea, and that he wants me to see Dr. Peacock, a

> pulmonary doctor that has an office in Nashville.

> Then he said I was the ideal cadidate for this surgery. "

> <http://www.geocities.com/conwaysdaddy/>

>

> " I was impressed with Dr Husted imedeatly when we

> got to the seminar. His Nurse was also very

> helpful. Dr Husted spent almost an hour with me

> during my first visit....He was very informative and

> I really am comfortable with him and his whole staff. "

> <http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/profile.phtml?

N=Y987203084>

>

>

> 4. What Happened?

>

> -- " He was in the ICU after surgery for awhile and developed > a

> wound infection. " (Theresa)

>

> -- " He was having some breathing difficulties and we called

Dr.husted

> in to see us at 1 am.... he ordered blood gasses which came out

> fine...shortly there after Larry started turning blue...the staff

on

> the 5th floor worked on him for nearly an hour but he was allready

> gone. " (Diane, Larry's widow)

>

>

> WHY DID LARRY DIE, I.E., WHO FAILED HIM?

>

> (WARNING: THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS STRONG OPINIONS. IF YOU ARE ONE

OF

> THE MANY PEOPLE ON THIS LIST WHO ARE RENDERED APOPLECTIC BY THE

> PUBLIC EXPRESSION OF OPINIONS CONTRARY TO YOUR OWN, PLEASE STOP

> READING NOW.)

>

> To repeat:

>

> WHO FAILED LARRY?

>

> 1. Dr. Husted failed him

>

> What the HELL was this man thinking, taking on a 686 pound patient

> with a BMI of 88.1 for his very FIRST BPD/DS procedure?

>

> 2. WE FAILED HIM!

>

> Who we? Yes WE!

>

> How? By being so EFFING scared of hurting someone's feelings that

we

> almost never discuss the hard truths about this surgery, (or if we

> do, the conversation is quickly shouted down).

>

> Here are some of those hard truths we don't talk about:

>

> 1. This surgery is technically difficult and, in inexperienced

> hands, extremely dangerous;

>

> 2. The DS has a steep learning curve, i.e., if you choose a

surgeon

> who has not performed many of the procedures, you GREATLY increase

> your chances of serious complications and/or death;

>

> 3. All DS surgeons are not equal. Some have performed the surgery

> so many times they could probably do it in their sleep, while

others

> are so wet behind the ears they probably need an instruction manual

> in the operating room;

>

> 4. Being a good surgeon requires much, much more than memorizing

the

> human anatomy and learning how to cut and stitch tissues and

organs.

> It takes, more than anything else, GOOD JUDGMENT -- which I define

as

> the ability to make decisions PRIOR to surgery such as to minimize

> the risk of that surgery, as well as the ability to make the right

> decision quickly when faced with a crisis in the operating room.

>

> 5. There is no correlation between how much a surgeon's patients

> like that surgeon and how capable that surgeon is. Nor is there

any

> correlation between how nice a surgeon is at the consult, or how

much

> time s/he spends with you, and how capable a surgeon s/he is.

>

>

> I could go on and on, but I won't. Instead, I'll leave you with a

> question.

>

> Do we care about our fellow MO folks? Do we care enough to caution

> them against doing something we know in our hearts is foolish or

> dangerous?

>

> Will we care enough about the next Larry to tell him DON'T GO TO AN

> INEXPERIENCED SURGEON -- DON'T BE FIRST -- DON'T BE A GUINEA PIG!

>

> Or will we just sit on our hands until s/he's dead or maimed, and

> then wring them in sadness?

>

> Think about it.

>

> Tom

>

> Panniculectomy, Dr. Anthone, 11/10/2000

> Open DS, Dr. Anthone, 03/30/2001

> 11/10/2000 . . . . . . 386 (Panniculectomy)

> 03/30/2001 . . . . . . 360 (DS)

> 04/19/2001 . . . . . . 338

> 05/03/2001 . . . . . . 328

> 05/18/2001 . . . . . . 316

> 06/03/2001 . . . . . . 301

> 06/15/2001 . . . . . . 299

> 06/25/2001 . . . . . . 293

> 07/03/2001 . . . . . . 286

> 07/16/2001 . . . . . . 278

> 07/23/2001 . . . . . . 276

> 07/30/2001 . . . . . . 275

> 08/06/2001 . . . . . . 272

> Goal Weight. . . . . . 185

> Lost So Far. . . . . . 114 Ugly Pounds

> Remainder to Goal. . . 87

> USC DS Support Group: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ds_usc>

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