Guest guest Posted August 6, 2001 Report Share Posted August 6, 2001 In a message dated 8/6/01 9:37:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, duodenalswitch writes: << now this statement may cause a riot here but, statistically speaking, the RNY does have less serious complications by % than a BPD/DS. I knew this going into it and had a Lap BPD/DS anyway >> Excuse me? Where did you get this? What can you document this statement with? From all my research I have never come across anything like this and I would not want an RNY based on what I have learned about it. Since when is having a pouch without a pyloric (sp) valve better than having a stomach???? I think you mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would say this. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2001 Report Share Posted August 6, 2001 Now, Carole, don't you think that we should really concentrate on being " nice " instead of flaming people? Yours is really a harsh post, even for that " other list. " I mean, like, this is really soooo, uh, er, (I can hardly bear to say that word on this list), uhm, er, c-c-c-controversial. After all, people with RNY's have feelings, too. Nick in Sage > In a message dated 8/6/01 9:37:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > duodenalswitch@y... writes: > > << now this statement may cause a riot here but, statistically > speaking, the RNY does have less serious complications by % than a > BPD/DS. I knew this going into it and had a Lap BPD/DS anyway >> > Excuse me? Where did you get this? What can you document this statement > with? From all my research I have never come across anything like this and I > would not want an RNY based on what I have learned about it. Since when is > having a pouch without a pyloric (sp) valve better than having a stomach???? > I think you mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would > say this. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 In a message dated 8/7/01 3:53:43 AM, duodenalswitch writes: << Excuse me? Where did you get this? What can you document this statement with? From all my research I have never come across anything like this and I would not want an RNY based on what I have learned about it. Since when is having a pouch without a pyloric (sp) valve better than having a stomach???? I think you mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would say this. Carole >> Carole: I don't think ANYONE was saying that an RNY is 'better' than a DS by any means. What was mentioned was that complications *can be* more serious. The DS by it's very nature is a more complicated surgery. It involves malapsorption (something the proximal RNY does not, but the distal RNY does - something the original poster noted as well). The nutritional defects that one *can possibly* come up with CAN BE more severe than someone who has an RNY. If supplements are taken as instructed, one eats well and gets enough protein in, any deficiency will show up with regular bloodwork/aftercare and hopefully adjustments made so it doesn't progress. There was been some discussion as to whether the DS surgery makes one more prone to post-op hernias (perhaps because the intestines are now so incontiguous and rearranged?). BEcause of the not one or two but THREE animosteses (sorry - wrong spelling), or areas where the intestines are cut and re-sewn together, there could be increased risk of blockage, internal adhesions that cause intestinal twisting, etc. all along the small intestines! So, yes --- the DS by it's very nature is a more complex surgery. As such, it carries with it a potential for more serious complications. This doesn't mean the more serious complications WILL occur or that people should have any RNy instead. However, it is a factor and reason why some would prefer the RNY over the DS (both patients and surgeon preference). I think this is also part of the reason why the DS isn't the 'preferred' weight loss surgery. It's success really depends a lot on the post-op patient being well educated and informed about the surgery, the required labwork, etc. This is especially true if that person has a PCP who is uneducated about post-op DS care. We often have to educate our primary physicians as well since they will be the ones providing primary aftercare for th rest of our lives (the surgeon usually provides aftercare up to one year and then is available for post-ops but it isn't like they require regular visits and labwork after one year post-op. The PCP will be the primary person who will address such post-op issues and most likely refer you back to the surgeon if there are difficulties, not the other way around). It's pretty easy to let things 'slide' when one is feeling good. Most of the nutritional deficiencies take quite awhile to manifest themselves to the point where they incapacitate someone. At that point, they are more life-threatening and also more difficult to get under control. A DS post-op really should be aware that supplements will always be a part of their lives (and they may require different levels - more or less at differing times of their lives), these supplements need to be monitored and perhaps adjusted (regular labwork will determine whether proper nutrient/protein levels are being maintained) and without them they could face serious health risks which may not be detected until it is 'too late' or makes it extremely difficult to correct. Despite all this, I know that the DS surgery was right for me! :) The long term benefits and the ability to eat and live like a 'normal' person far outweigh the potential risks. And, I know that with proper management and aftercare, these risks are greatly minimized and can be kept in check. We do know that the intestines accomodate and attempt to make up for the malapsorption. Perhaps in the future one will not need to be so 'conservative' about the DS at five years or more out. For now, the potential for nutritional deficiencies is a blanket statement and warning to all DS post-ops to keep in mind. all the best, Noverr-Chin co-moderator, duodenalswitch lap ds with gallbladder removal January 25, 2001 six months post-op and still feelin' fabu! pre-op: 307 lbs/bmi 45 (5' 9 1/2 " ) now: 228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 Not sure what the point of misrepresenting Carole's post is, Nick. There is nothing wrong with asking someone to cite references for statements they make. I would also like to know from what sources the original writer draws the conclusion that DS is more complication-ridden than RNY. > Re: WHAT?!! > > > Now, Carole, don't you think that we should really concentrate on > being " nice " instead of flaming people? Yours is really a harsh > post, even for that " other list. " I mean, like, this is really > soooo, uh, er, (I can hardly bear to say that word on this list), > uhm, er, c-c-c-controversial. After all, people with RNY's have > feelings, too. > > Nick in Sage > > > > > In a message dated 8/6/01 9:37:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > duodenalswitch@y... writes: > > > > << now this statement may cause a riot here but, statistically > > speaking, the RNY does have less serious complications by % than a > > BPD/DS. I knew this going into it and had a Lap BPD/DS anyway >> > > Excuse me? Where did you get this? What can you document this > statement > > with? From all my research I have never come across anything like > this and I > > would not want an RNY based on what I have learned about it. Since > when is > > having a pouch without a pyloric (sp) valve better than having a > stomach???? > > I think you mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why > you would > > say this. Carole > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 O.K. I am going to go out on a limb here and post the following statement in hopes of not being attacked or misinterpreted. " I " believe it is far more positive to support all means of bariatric surgery with facts or questions regarding surgery or life afterwards. We must not divide ourselves because we have had different procedures, but motivate others to seek out help and understanding about the true disease that devastates many. We must stand together and promote our choice to have bariatric surgery, regardless of what procedure someone has chosen. To better health, G. Woodward, MPH, LCEP Live Light, Program Director Gulf Coast Medical Center Biloxi, MS 39531 1- www.gulfcoastmedicalcenter.com Re: WHAT?!! > > > Now, Carole, don't you think that we should really concentrate on > being " nice " instead of flaming people? Yours is really a harsh > post, even for that " other list. " I mean, like, this is really > soooo, uh, er, (I can hardly bear to say that word on this list), > uhm, er, c-c-c-controversial. After all, people with RNY's have > feelings, too. > > Nick in Sage > > > > > In a message dated 8/6/01 9:37:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > duodenalswitch@y... writes: > > > > << now this statement may cause a riot here but, statistically > > speaking, the RNY does have less serious complications by % than a > > BPD/DS. I knew this going into it and had a Lap BPD/DS anyway >> > > Excuse me? Where did you get this? What can you document this > statement > > with? From all my research I have never come across anything like > this and I > > would not want an RNY based on what I have learned about it. Since > when is > > having a pouch without a pyloric (sp) valve better than having a > stomach???? > > I think you mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why > you would > > say this. Carole > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 In a message dated 8/7/01 1:46:07 PM, duodenalswitch writes: << Yes, the potential for serious malnutrition exisists with the DS if you don't take your daily vitamin. This potential also exists with the RNY if they are lacking on their daily meds. So are we talking better or worse again...no....just which major surgery offers a quality of life that you can live with and which one do you feel you can be compliant with for the rest of your life. As always, the bottom line is, which surgery is best for you? >> Heidi: Well said. Yes, I agree that it is a personal decision as to which surgery is better and must be made wisely and with as much information as possible. I think that RNY folk also can suffer serious nutritional deficiencies but not to the same degree that post-op DSers may. I do not think they can get deficiencies in the fat-soluable A,D,E, or K, for example. Or, that their protein deficiencies could become as serious since they do not have the high malapsorption of it. ON the other hand, one could solidly argue that, since many are not able to get sufficient protein in due to the small pouch, etc. that they are at equivalent risk even without the malapsorption. They can also develop B-12 deficiency wheras this is very rare with post=op DS (since we have some duodenum to work with). Both surgeries can result in calcium deficiency and osteoperoisis, although the DS *may* be considered to have an edge since we have some duodenum with which to absorb calcium and the RNY folks do not.... And, yes - RNY post-ops can experience severe complications and the RNY surgery is also major surgery. I am not sure what the original poster was referring to exactly when she mentioned 'complications' -- whether it was surgical complications (hernias, blockage, leakage -- and I don't know if DS is statistically any more prone to this than RNY other than there are 'more' opportunities to develop a blockage because of the complexity involved and more areas where the intestines are cut and put together again) or if she were mainly referring to the potential for nutritional deficiencies. If she is referring to nutritional deficiencies, I think by its very nature that the DS post-op is at greater risk (this would be true for the distal RNY post-op, too). Yes, RNY folk can develop deficiencies, but I really don't think to the same extent or severity. Like said, it would be interesting to see the clinical study or statistics that would provide solid proof as far as the DS and RNY are concerned and complication rates. all the best, lap ds with gallbladder removal January 25, 2001 six months post-op and still feelin' fabu! pre-op: 307 lbs/bmi 45 (5' 91/2 " ) now: 228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 Hear,hear!!!!! Marcia > Re: WHAT?!! > > > > > > Now, Carole, don't you think that we should really concentrate on > > being " nice " instead of flaming people? Yours is really a harsh > > post, even for that " other list. " I mean, like, this is really > > soooo, uh, er, (I can hardly bear to say that word on this list), > > uhm, er, c-c-c-controversial. After all, people with RNY's have > > feelings, too. > > > > Nick in Sage > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 8/6/01 9:37:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > duodenalswitch@y... writes: > > > > > > << now this statement may cause a riot here but, statistically > > > speaking, the RNY does have less serious complications by % than a > > > BPD/DS. I knew this going into it and had a Lap BPD/DS anyway >> > > > Excuse me? Where did you get this? What can you document this > > statement > > > with? From all my research I have never come across anything like > > this and I > > > would not want an RNY based on what I have learned about it. Since > > when is > > > having a pouch without a pyloric (sp) valve better than having a > > stomach???? > > > I think you mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why > > you would > > > say this. Carole > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 <<<What was mentioned was that complications *can be* more serious. The DS by it's very nature is a more complicated surgery. It involves malapsorption (something the proximal RNY does not, but the distal RNY does >>> There's no doubt that the DS is a more complicated surgery and complications *can be* serious. But to say it's more serious that the RNY or any other major surgery, well, I just disagree. I belong to a group of about 20 WLS patients and we all had surgery the same time. I'm the only DS patient. The complications they have had have since surgery have been constant over the past 20 months. They have been to the hospital on average of 3 times each since surgery with things like endoscopies, malnutrition, a couple of them have now developed sever ulcers, and a couple of them are near death with serious health problems and depression. This is non-scientific, just a random group of friends sharing personal experiences. While having endoscopes, & ulcers aren't considered *serious* complications by some, personally, I would hate to live the with hassle of *minor* complications on a more regular basis as my friends who have had RNY do. A couple of them regret having the surgery & one is considering a reversal, however, most of them are perfectly happy with the procedure they chose & willingly live with their minor complications. Yes, the potential for serious malnutrition exisists with the DS if you don't take your daily vitamin. This potential also exists with the RNY if they are lacking on their daily meds. So are we talking better or worse again...no....just which major surgery offers a quality of life that you can live with and which one do you feel you can be compliant with for the rest of your life. As always, the bottom line is, which surgery is best for you? Heidi Guio Dr. Anthone, USC University Hospital, Switched October 1999 http://www.myWLS.com/discus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 >> > So are we talking better or worse again...no....just which major > surgery offers a quality of life that you can live with and which one > do you feel you can be compliant with for the rest of your life. As > always, the bottom line is, which surgery is best for you? > > Heidi Guio > Dr. Anthone, USC University Hospital, Switched October 1999 > http://www.myWLS.com/discus I want to echo Heidi's sentiment and add a few thoughts: There seems to be a great deal of confusion between surgical complications and side effects. In theory complications should be very rare and are somewhat related to the skill of the surgeon. Complications are sub-divided into surgery specific, non-specific and late complications. Non specific complications are things like pulmonary embuli, storke, heart attack, pnemonia etc. These complications can occur with ANY surgery. There is no evidence that the DS surgey has a higher non- specific complication rate than any other surgery. However, MO patients tend to be at much higer risk of non-specific complications regardless of what type of surgery they have. Specific complications relate to the type of opeeration. Examples of specific complications include leaks, abscess, splenectomy, blockages, and bleeding around the surgical site. The rate of specific complications might be expected to be somewhat higher for the DS than the RNY, though the studies I have seen show them to be comparable. Late complications include bowel obstruction, severe malnutrition, severe persistant diaharrea, and occasional a late stroke, heart attack etc. These complications are defined to occur at least 30 days after the surgery. Late complications are rare, but they do occur in about 2-3% of the patients with DS. I am not sure what the rate is for RNY. In theory it is possible to get the complication rate down to zero. Side effects are different. Side effects are more frequent and usually expected. Side effects are either temporary or are nuisance. Side effects should not require extended hospitalization. Examples of side effects include, occasional bouts with diarhea, boating, ocasional heartburn, fould stool odor, ocasional vomiting, food intolerances etc. Here is where the RNY and the DS are VERY different. Side effects for the RNY are dominated by dumping, severe food intolerances, and vomiting. Side effects for the DS are more dominated by stool oder, frequency of bowel movements etc. To summarize, the RNY side efects seem to be from the stomach pouch up (mostly) and the DS side effects seem to be from the stomach down. This is a rough generalization and is not 100% true. Hull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 > Not sure what the point of misrepresenting Carole's post is, Nick. > > There is nothing wrong with asking someone to cite references for > statements they make. I would also like to know from what sources the > original writer draws the conclusion that DS is more complication- ridden > than RNY. > > Your point is well taken, . I just thought that there might be a " nicer " way to ask for those references than saying " I think you mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would say this. " Is there more than one standard for judging " niceness " on this board, ? Nick - who is " nice, " Theresa. He will soon be kneeding knew knickers, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 > Not sure what the point of misrepresenting Carole's post is, Nick. > > There is nothing wrong with asking someone to cite references for > statements they make. I would also like to know from what sources the > original writer draws the conclusion that DS is more complication- ridden > than RNY. > > Your point is well taken, . I just thought that there might be a " nicer " way to ask for those references than saying " I think you mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would say this. " Is there more than one standard for judging " niceness " on this board, ? Nick - who is " nice, " Theresa. He will soon be kneeding knew knickers, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 <<<I think that RNY folk also can suffer serious nutritional deficiencies but not to the same degree that post-op DSers may >>> I'm sorry , but I respectfully disagree. For one reason, in my 3 years of daily research I have never read any studies showing this to be fact, and second, it is contrary to my first hand experience and witness to the opposite. If you're talking about the " potential " to be deficient, well... I guess if you took a RNY patient, and a DS patient and neither were compliant with supplements, which one would be more ill? I think it would be a toss up. I think they would have two completely different sets of equally serious problems. See what I mean? Since we don't have the clinical studies to back up a statement such as, DS'ers have the potential to be more ill, I don't think we can assume this to be fact. I appreciate your input and your point of view... All the best... Heidi Guio Dr. Anthone, USC University Hospital, Open DS October 1999 http://www.mywls.com/discus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 <<<I think that RNY folk also can suffer serious nutritional deficiencies but not to the same degree that post-op DSers may >>> I'm sorry , but I respectfully disagree. For one reason, in my 3 years of daily research I have never read any studies showing this to be fact, and second, it is contrary to my first hand experience and witness to the opposite. If you're talking about the " potential " to be deficient, well... I guess if you took a RNY patient, and a DS patient and neither were compliant with supplements, which one would be more ill? I think it would be a toss up. I think they would have two completely different sets of equally serious problems. See what I mean? Since we don't have the clinical studies to back up a statement such as, DS'ers have the potential to be more ill, I don't think we can assume this to be fact. I appreciate your input and your point of view... All the best... Heidi Guio Dr. Anthone, USC University Hospital, Open DS October 1999 http://www.mywls.com/discus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 In a message dated 8/8/01 5:48:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, melaniemag@... writes: > > Your point is well taken, . I just thought that there might > > be a " nicer " way to ask for those references than saying " I think you > > mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would > > say this. " Is there more than one standard for judging " niceness " on > > this board, ? > > Nick, you are an attorney, correct? That being the case, I assume you to > have enough intelligence that you don't need things explained to you in > intricate detail. Obviously, the absence of intonation in list posts > will mean that some people perceive certain things different ways. But I > didn't see anything offensive in Carole's post. You clearly just want to > be provocative, for whatever reason. What's the point? It has nothing to > do with the DS, and it only serves to make you look like a jackass. I > enjoy your humor and your posts here are often insightful. But the > sarcasm and pot-stirring isn't really necessary, is it? > > I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly I am sensing hostilty from so often. I have great respect for everyone on this list and while some people I don't necessarily understand their posts, Nick seems to take the edge and run with it and get reactions. He enjoys that..and for the most part I get a laugh reading it. I can understand not everyone likes or respects that sense of humor. I truly don't find him to be offensive or even being disrespectful to a specific person yet the responses coming back are very personal and seem to be taken that way. I may be out of line here but I'm tired. I came back after surgery to the same junk before I left. I found the tone of Carole's post to be a bit rude...so like anything, we all read different things into what is said here. I found 's response to be right up there also. Maybe some of the people here should ignore certain people's emails if they don't like the style of their post...something I will begin doing myself. I don't mean to start anything or appear to be picking out good and bad people...just am really tired of this junk. I find everyone here has a positive and I tend to focus on that and enjoy each person for the strengths they bring to the list. We aren't all going to be best friends or even like each other...the common bond here is weight and surgery...but that's it...so expect some limitations. Please can't we get past all this and back to having fun, learning, sharing and enjoying the successes we are all making! I just got back from an incredible time in Spain and then got my first loss of 25 lbs... Now I know how all the other post ops have felt in the beginning.... I want to be discussing what I should be trying to eat, helping others trying to get surgery and hearing everyone's successes as they reach them. This is such an incredible time in our lives....I really hate having it interrupted for quick reactions to things that were meant to be humorous... Ok...so don't everyone hate me...I had to let this out..its been driving me nuts. Congrats to all the other new post ops and much success to the pre-ops...if anyone wants to know anything about Dr. Baltasar (he is the best...LOL) please feel free to ask...I'm all answers! Can we please drop the attitudes and get back to the reason we are all here? ~~* AJ *~~ Post op 7/24/01 self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain 07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1 08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~ Check out the Bellingham Support for WLS WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 In a message dated 8/8/01 5:48:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, melaniemag@... writes: > > Your point is well taken, . I just thought that there might > > be a " nicer " way to ask for those references than saying " I think you > > mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would > > say this. " Is there more than one standard for judging " niceness " on > > this board, ? > > Nick, you are an attorney, correct? That being the case, I assume you to > have enough intelligence that you don't need things explained to you in > intricate detail. Obviously, the absence of intonation in list posts > will mean that some people perceive certain things different ways. But I > didn't see anything offensive in Carole's post. You clearly just want to > be provocative, for whatever reason. What's the point? It has nothing to > do with the DS, and it only serves to make you look like a jackass. I > enjoy your humor and your posts here are often insightful. But the > sarcasm and pot-stirring isn't really necessary, is it? > > I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly I am sensing hostilty from so often. I have great respect for everyone on this list and while some people I don't necessarily understand their posts, Nick seems to take the edge and run with it and get reactions. He enjoys that..and for the most part I get a laugh reading it. I can understand not everyone likes or respects that sense of humor. I truly don't find him to be offensive or even being disrespectful to a specific person yet the responses coming back are very personal and seem to be taken that way. I may be out of line here but I'm tired. I came back after surgery to the same junk before I left. I found the tone of Carole's post to be a bit rude...so like anything, we all read different things into what is said here. I found 's response to be right up there also. Maybe some of the people here should ignore certain people's emails if they don't like the style of their post...something I will begin doing myself. I don't mean to start anything or appear to be picking out good and bad people...just am really tired of this junk. I find everyone here has a positive and I tend to focus on that and enjoy each person for the strengths they bring to the list. We aren't all going to be best friends or even like each other...the common bond here is weight and surgery...but that's it...so expect some limitations. Please can't we get past all this and back to having fun, learning, sharing and enjoying the successes we are all making! I just got back from an incredible time in Spain and then got my first loss of 25 lbs... Now I know how all the other post ops have felt in the beginning.... I want to be discussing what I should be trying to eat, helping others trying to get surgery and hearing everyone's successes as they reach them. This is such an incredible time in our lives....I really hate having it interrupted for quick reactions to things that were meant to be humorous... Ok...so don't everyone hate me...I had to let this out..its been driving me nuts. Congrats to all the other new post ops and much success to the pre-ops...if anyone wants to know anything about Dr. Baltasar (he is the best...LOL) please feel free to ask...I'm all answers! Can we please drop the attitudes and get back to the reason we are all here? ~~* AJ *~~ Post op 7/24/01 self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain 07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1 08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~ Check out the Bellingham Support for WLS WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 In a message dated 8/8/01 1:06:10 AM, duodenalswitch writes: << If you're talking about the " potential " to be deficient, well... I guess if you took a RNY patient, and a DS patient and neither were compliant with supplements, which one would be more ill? I think it would be a toss up. I think they would have two completely different sets of equally serious problems. See what I mean? Since we don't have the clinical studies to back up a statement such as, DS'ers have the potential to be more ill, I don't think we can assume this to be fact. >> Heidi, yes - this is what I'm referring to. I think that a DS post-op has the potential for more severe (and potentially life-threatening) nutritional deficiencies, among them protein deficiency or A, D, E and K. Yes, a post-op RNY can become protein deficient but if it is a proximal RNY I don't think that the deficiency can become as pronounced as a post-op Dser. For example, if you had a post-op RNY and post-op DS not eating any protein, I think the post-op RNY would NOT manifest as severe symptoms as a result because of the extreme malapsorption built into the DS. Of course, both can become anemic, both can become calcium-deficient, the RNY folk can get a B-12 deficiency (this very rare with a post-op DS). Both can suffer various B deficiencies... And, yes - if neither took their supplements, both would be in pretty sorry shape and have serious problems. I still think the potential for more serious deficiencies exist with the DS. Although I don't think anyone has put the statistics side by side for comparision, I know that my surgeon made it very clear (as well as the nutritionist) that any malapsorptive procedure carries greater 'risk' for nutritional deficiencies. This is part of the reason why the DS hasn't been widely embraced and accepted as a 'gold standard' in bariatric surgery (the other part of the reason has to do with ignorance and misunderstanding as well). In no way am I saying that a post-op Dser will be more prone to developing these deficiences than a post-op RNY. I am stating that the greater the malapsorption, the greater the potential for nutritional deficiency and also severity of nutritional deficiency. I think that much has been established by the very nature of any malapsorptive procedure. I think the key is that we don't yet know how much the body adjusts to the surgery. There is evidence that the common channel elongates, becomes thicker, etc. and it is obvious that such risks lessen as the body tries to compensate for the malapsorption. Some people's bodies may adjust faster and others may compensate more. Therefore, some post-ops require less supplementation. Yes, I agree that we can respectfully disagree. all the best, lap ds with gallbladder removal Dr. Gagner/Mt. Sinai/NYC January 25, 2001 six months post-op and still feelin' fabu! pre-op: 307 lbs/bmi 45 (5' 9 1/2 " ) now: 228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly I am sensing hostilty from so often. I have great respect for everyone on this list and while some people I don't necessarily understand their posts, Nick seems to take the edge and run with it and get reactions. He enjoys that..and for the most part I get a laugh reading it. I can understand not everyone likes or respects that sense of humor. I truly don't find him to be offensive or even being disrespectful to a specific person yet the responses coming back are very personal and seem to be taken that way. I may be out of line here but I'm tired. I came back after surgery to the same junk before I left. >>>>>> AJ: THis all has to do with the 'censorship' issue that was pushed by Nick (and others) when Deb sent a post advertising her old website 'drrenisabutcher' and the list owner, privately told her this was not acceptable. Up to that point, Deb had posted and after that point she did not. Her posts were never deleted or such, but some people thought that 's private handling of this matter (and it was totally private - I have no idea of what was discussed, etc. nor was I informed ever that anyone should be put on any special 'status') was akin to censorship. Nick and others actually had a petition started that ran on the list for quite awhile and quite a few people (Joe Frost included) decided that they did not want to keep reading such things. So, while you consider it just a 'sense of humor', there is a pretty sordid history behind it. Nick seems to think that everything on the list has to be 'nice' in order to be approved because we are 'censoring' the list. is sick and tired of him interjecting such statements (obviously the moderator and co-moderator aren't interjecting them at every turn, preferring to just let things pass). This response to Carol is not an isolated case. If you search the archives, you'll see where all this Mr. Nice originated from and his posts are meant to show that the moderators only 'allow' certain 'positive' material to be viewed since Deb's one post about Dr. Ren (although there were many about Dr. Ren that were posted without comments or incident) was viewed as potentially litigious and in poor taste. Since it was the one and only time on the history of the list where quite a few members actually LEFT due to the bickering and insistance of the 'censorship' campaign, I think it is not out of the question to assume such comments are meant to inflame another 'censorship' type flamewar..... All the best, Noverr-Chin co-moderator, duodenalswitch lap ds with gallbladder removal Dr. Gagner/Mt. Sinai/NYC January 25, 2001 six months post-op and still feelin' fabu pre-op: 307 lbs/bmi 45 (5' 9 1/2 " ) now: 228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 > Your point is well taken, . I just thought that there might > be a " nicer " way to ask for those references than saying " I think you > mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would > say this. " Is there more than one standard for judging " niceness " on > this board, ? Nick, you are an attorney, correct? That being the case, I assume you to have enough intelligence that you don't need things explained to you in intricate detail. Obviously, the absence of intonation in list posts will mean that some people perceive certain things different ways. But I didn't see anything offensive in Carole's post. You clearly just want to be provocative, for whatever reason. What's the point? It has nothing to do with the DS, and it only serves to make you look like a jackass. I enjoy your humor and your posts here are often insightful. But the sarcasm and pot-stirring isn't really necessary, is it? M. --- in Valrico, FL, age 38 Starting weight 299, now 156 Starting BMI 49.7, now 26.0 Lap DGB/DS by Dr. Rabkin 10-19-99 http://www.duodenalswitch.com Direct replies: mailto:melanie@... _________________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 DITTO AJ !! I have a blast reading the posts of the more colorful personalities on the list. Goldstein is king of insightful humor--Nick is sardonic- -I don't see any ill will or malicious intent with anyone's writing-- but then again I'm a pretty positive person and try to see the best and funny side of things. For the most part no one wants to be offensive---but we can control if we TAKE offense!! Amy--tell everyone about SPain---they all don't get to see Dr. B's postings--they were surely a shot in the arm. He did 4 Americans in one week and they all did fabo!!! Amy already is on her way with 25#s gone--wow!!! At 5'8 " which is the beauty queen height and that incredible face of hers, and the beautiful mass of hair (which I covet immensely) look out!!!! Looking forward to chewing the fat!!! Verbally and literally!! Pammi set to switch 10/15/01 Spain > In a message dated 8/8/01 5:48:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > melaniemag@y... writes: > > > > > Your point is well taken, . I just thought that there might > > > be a " nicer " way to ask for those references than saying " I think you > > > mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would > > > say this. " Is there more than one standard for judging " niceness " on > > > this board, ? > > > > Nick, you are an attorney, correct? That being the case, I assume you to > > have enough intelligence that you don't need things explained to you in > > intricate detail. Obviously, the absence of intonation in list posts > > will mean that some people perceive certain things different ways. But I > > didn't see anything offensive in Carole's post. You clearly just want to > > be provocative, for whatever reason. What's the point? It has nothing to > > do with the DS, and it only serves to make you look like a jackass. I > > enjoy your humor and your posts here are often insightful. But the > > sarcasm and pot-stirring isn't really necessary, is it? > > > > > > I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly I am sensing > hostilty from so often. I have great respect for everyone on this > list and while some people I don't necessarily understand their posts, Nick > seems to take the edge and run with it and get reactions. He enjoys > that..and for the most part I get a laugh reading it. I can understand not > everyone likes or respects that sense of humor. I truly don't find him to be > offensive or even being disrespectful to a specific person yet the responses > coming back are very personal and seem to be taken that way. I may be out of > line here but I'm tired. I came back after surgery to the same junk before I > left. > > I found the tone of Carole's post to be a bit rude...so like anything, we all > read different things into what is said here. I found 's response to > be right up there also. Maybe some of the people here should ignore certain > people's emails if they don't like the style of their post...something I will > begin doing myself. > > I don't mean to start anything or appear to be picking out good and bad > people...just am really tired of this junk. I find everyone here has a > positive and I tend to focus on that and enjoy each person for the strengths > they bring to the list. We aren't all going to be best friends or even like > each other...the common bond here is weight and surgery...but that's it...so > expect some limitations. > > Please can't we get past all this and back to having fun, learning, sharing > and enjoying the successes we are all making! I just got back from an > incredible time in Spain and then got my first loss of 25 lbs... Now I know > how all the other post ops have felt in the beginning.... > > I want to be discussing what I should be trying to eat, helping others trying > to get surgery and hearing everyone's successes as they reach them. This is > such an incredible time in our lives....I really hate having it interrupted > for quick reactions to things that were meant to be humorous... > > Ok...so don't everyone hate me...I had to let this out..its been driving me > nuts. > > Congrats to all the other new post ops and much success to the pre- ops...if > anyone wants to know anything about Dr. Baltasar (he is the best...LOL) > please feel free to ask...I'm all answers! > > Can we please drop the attitudes and get back to the reason we are all here? > ~~* AJ *~~ > Post op 7/24/01 > self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain > 07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1 > 08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~ > > Check out the > Bellingham Support for WLS > WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 DITTO AJ !! I have a blast reading the posts of the more colorful personalities on the list. Goldstein is king of insightful humor--Nick is sardonic- -I don't see any ill will or malicious intent with anyone's writing-- but then again I'm a pretty positive person and try to see the best and funny side of things. For the most part no one wants to be offensive---but we can control if we TAKE offense!! Amy--tell everyone about SPain---they all don't get to see Dr. B's postings--they were surely a shot in the arm. He did 4 Americans in one week and they all did fabo!!! Amy already is on her way with 25#s gone--wow!!! At 5'8 " which is the beauty queen height and that incredible face of hers, and the beautiful mass of hair (which I covet immensely) look out!!!! Looking forward to chewing the fat!!! Verbally and literally!! Pammi set to switch 10/15/01 Spain > In a message dated 8/8/01 5:48:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > melaniemag@y... writes: > > > > > Your point is well taken, . I just thought that there might > > > be a " nicer " way to ask for those references than saying " I think you > > > mis-spoke and I don't understand for the life of me why you would > > > say this. " Is there more than one standard for judging " niceness " on > > > this board, ? > > > > Nick, you are an attorney, correct? That being the case, I assume you to > > have enough intelligence that you don't need things explained to you in > > intricate detail. Obviously, the absence of intonation in list posts > > will mean that some people perceive certain things different ways. But I > > didn't see anything offensive in Carole's post. You clearly just want to > > be provocative, for whatever reason. What's the point? It has nothing to > > do with the DS, and it only serves to make you look like a jackass. I > > enjoy your humor and your posts here are often insightful. But the > > sarcasm and pot-stirring isn't really necessary, is it? > > > > > > I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly I am sensing > hostilty from so often. I have great respect for everyone on this > list and while some people I don't necessarily understand their posts, Nick > seems to take the edge and run with it and get reactions. He enjoys > that..and for the most part I get a laugh reading it. I can understand not > everyone likes or respects that sense of humor. I truly don't find him to be > offensive or even being disrespectful to a specific person yet the responses > coming back are very personal and seem to be taken that way. I may be out of > line here but I'm tired. I came back after surgery to the same junk before I > left. > > I found the tone of Carole's post to be a bit rude...so like anything, we all > read different things into what is said here. I found 's response to > be right up there also. Maybe some of the people here should ignore certain > people's emails if they don't like the style of their post...something I will > begin doing myself. > > I don't mean to start anything or appear to be picking out good and bad > people...just am really tired of this junk. I find everyone here has a > positive and I tend to focus on that and enjoy each person for the strengths > they bring to the list. We aren't all going to be best friends or even like > each other...the common bond here is weight and surgery...but that's it...so > expect some limitations. > > Please can't we get past all this and back to having fun, learning, sharing > and enjoying the successes we are all making! I just got back from an > incredible time in Spain and then got my first loss of 25 lbs... Now I know > how all the other post ops have felt in the beginning.... > > I want to be discussing what I should be trying to eat, helping others trying > to get surgery and hearing everyone's successes as they reach them. This is > such an incredible time in our lives....I really hate having it interrupted > for quick reactions to things that were meant to be humorous... > > Ok...so don't everyone hate me...I had to let this out..its been driving me > nuts. > > Congrats to all the other new post ops and much success to the pre- ops...if > anyone wants to know anything about Dr. Baltasar (he is the best...LOL) > please feel free to ask...I'm all answers! > > Can we please drop the attitudes and get back to the reason we are all here? > ~~* AJ *~~ > Post op 7/24/01 > self pay - Dr Baltasar -Alcoy Spain > 07/24/01 BMI 64 - 415.1 > 08/06/01 BMI 59 - 390.2 -24.9 lbs!!!!!!!!!!~~~~ > > Check out the > Bellingham Support for WLS > WWW.WLSBellingham.homestead.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 > I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly > I am sensing hostility from so often. I'm sorry if you feel that I'm hostile. What I am is impatient with people who are clearly trying to provoke negative reactions on the list. It's not helpful to anyone, and it detracts from the purpose of the list. The list has been doing great lately with avoiding the BS, and it seems to me that Nick's post was trying to stir something up. Hey, it worked, didn't it. LOL. At this moment, I have over 40 messages in the DS website's email box from people who want me to do various things for them. I have 30 messages in my regular inbox from people who have questions and want answers. My daughter's first day of school is today, and I'm barely keeping my head above water with all the volunteer things I am managing. I'm considering taking a sabbatical from the DS website. I just don't have time or inclination to deal with extraneous crap from pot-stirrers, even if they are entertaining to some people. If my impatience is off-putting, I do apologize. M. --- in Valrico, FL, age 38 Starting weight 299, now 156 Starting BMI 49.7, now 26.0 Lap DGB/DS by Dr. Rabkin 10-19-99 http://www.duodenalswitch.com Direct replies: mailto:melanie@... _________________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 > I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly > I am sensing hostility from so often. I'm sorry if you feel that I'm hostile. What I am is impatient with people who are clearly trying to provoke negative reactions on the list. It's not helpful to anyone, and it detracts from the purpose of the list. The list has been doing great lately with avoiding the BS, and it seems to me that Nick's post was trying to stir something up. Hey, it worked, didn't it. LOL. At this moment, I have over 40 messages in the DS website's email box from people who want me to do various things for them. I have 30 messages in my regular inbox from people who have questions and want answers. My daughter's first day of school is today, and I'm barely keeping my head above water with all the volunteer things I am managing. I'm considering taking a sabbatical from the DS website. I just don't have time or inclination to deal with extraneous crap from pot-stirrers, even if they are entertaining to some people. If my impatience is off-putting, I do apologize. M. --- in Valrico, FL, age 38 Starting weight 299, now 156 Starting BMI 49.7, now 26.0 Lap DGB/DS by Dr. Rabkin 10-19-99 http://www.duodenalswitch.com Direct replies: mailto:melanie@... _________________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 I personally would like thank for the job she does for this list. So Thank You!!!!! Lisbeth Dr. Macura June 25, 2001 Magruder wrote: > I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly > I am sensing hostility from so often. I'm sorry if you feel that I'm hostile. What I am is impatient with people who are clearly trying to provoke negative reactions on the list. It's not helpful to anyone, and it detracts from the purpose of the list. The list has been doing great lately with avoiding the BS, and it seems to me that Nick's post was trying to stir something up. Hey, it worked, didn't it. LOL. At this moment, I have over 40 messages in the DS website's email box from people who want me to do various things for them. I have 30 messages in my regular inbox from people who have questions and want answers. My daughter's first day of school is today, and I'm barely keeping my head above water with all the volunteer things I am managing. I'm considering taking a sabbatical from the DS website. I just don't have time or inclination to deal with extraneous crap from pot-stirrers, even if they are entertaining to some people. If my impatience is off-putting, I do apologize. M. --- in Valrico, FL, age 38 Starting weight 299, now 156 Starting BMI 49.7, now 26.0 Lap DGB/DS by Dr. Rabkin 10-19-99 http://www.duodenalswitch.com Direct replies: mailto:melanie@... _________________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 I personally would like thank for the job she does for this list. So Thank You!!!!! Lisbeth Dr. Macura June 25, 2001 Magruder wrote: > I have been here for a while and I just wondered why suddenly > I am sensing hostility from so often. I'm sorry if you feel that I'm hostile. What I am is impatient with people who are clearly trying to provoke negative reactions on the list. It's not helpful to anyone, and it detracts from the purpose of the list. The list has been doing great lately with avoiding the BS, and it seems to me that Nick's post was trying to stir something up. Hey, it worked, didn't it. LOL. At this moment, I have over 40 messages in the DS website's email box from people who want me to do various things for them. I have 30 messages in my regular inbox from people who have questions and want answers. My daughter's first day of school is today, and I'm barely keeping my head above water with all the volunteer things I am managing. I'm considering taking a sabbatical from the DS website. I just don't have time or inclination to deal with extraneous crap from pot-stirrers, even if they are entertaining to some people. If my impatience is off-putting, I do apologize. M. --- in Valrico, FL, age 38 Starting weight 299, now 156 Starting BMI 49.7, now 26.0 Lap DGB/DS by Dr. Rabkin 10-19-99 http://www.duodenalswitch.com Direct replies: mailto:melanie@... _________________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 Thank you . It is sometimes a trying task. I also do not find that bitchy sarcastic hostility funny either. And, things have been pretty productive for a good stretch of time until recently. However, I think he is trying to get under your skin. He is looking for a sharp response. Here's to a stress free day. Sheryle pre-op Dr. Keshishian 10-10-01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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