Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hi - If you are interested in avoiding a tendon transfer surgery later on I would suggest dumping this doctor and going to a Ponseti Certified doctor to get your daughters foot corrected. Your doctor should of never taken her out of the bar. The shoes are useless without the bar. If you are interested in a Ponseti Certified doctor then let us know the area you are in and we'll point you to the closest one. > Hi everyone, > > I have a 16 month old daughter that was born with bilateral > clubfeet. She had casts put on her at 3 weeks till 6 months then had > the tendon surgery then casts again and then her doctor put her in > the shoes and bar. Well the bar was not to her liking at all so > after a couple of visits back to her doctor he decided to quit the > bar...said that they had found that the bar does not actually always > make and improvement. She still continued to wear the reverse last > shoes with built up soles. Well her left foot (which was always the > worst of the two) has started to drastically turn back in...the doc > said at her last appt. that if the outer muscle in her leg hasn't > strengthened up to start pulling the foot back out by the time she > goes back in August that he would go ahead and do the casting > again...this time with half casts (under her knees to her feet) so > that she can walk in them. My question is has anyone else had to do > this? The recasting when the child is walking. How did your child > adjust to the cast and was he/she able to walk? Plus she's also > having the tendon transfer surgery between the age of 2 and 3 so any > comments on that part of it would be greatly appreciated also!! > Thanks everyone! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hi , The thing is....he IS Ponseti certified and said at last visit that new studies have shown that the bar actually is not helping in a large percentage of cases, so it would be pointless to put her back in the bar....he said surgery is a definate because her case was so severe....the left foot was always the most stubborn. I don't know...I am totally stressed over this....crying right now because i can't believe she's going to be recasted....thank you for the input though...I am in Amarillo Texas area and her surgeon is Dr. Hamilton at Cook's Children's hospital in Fort Worth Texas > > Hi everyone, > > > > I have a 16 month old daughter that was born with bilateral > > clubfeet. She had casts put on her at 3 weeks till 6 months then > had > > the tendon surgery then casts again and then her doctor put her in > > the shoes and bar. Well the bar was not to her liking at all so > > after a couple of visits back to her doctor he decided to quit the > > bar...said that they had found that the bar does not actually > always > > make and improvement. She still continued to wear the reverse last > > shoes with built up soles. Well her left foot (which was always > the > > worst of the two) has started to drastically turn back in...the > doc > > said at her last appt. that if the outer muscle in her leg hasn't > > strengthened up to start pulling the foot back out by the time she > > goes back in August that he would go ahead and do the casting > > again...this time with half casts (under her knees to her feet) so > > that she can walk in them. My question is has anyone else had to > do > > this? The recasting when the child is walking. How did your child > > adjust to the cast and was he/she able to walk? Plus she's also > > having the tendon transfer surgery between the age of 2 and 3 so > any > > comments on that part of it would be greatly appreciated also!! > > Thanks everyone! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hi , Your daughter sounds kind of similar to my daughter Livi - she's also 16 months old and has a more severe left foot. We had a horrible (I cannot stress how much I hated those things) time with the shoes & bar (fab). We would put them on, then 5 minutes later, Livi's left foot would slip right out. And over and over again. When she turned one our doc was talking about doing a capsule release surgery, but was overridden by his boss, a Ponseti doc who suggested we do another tenotomy and recast, then try the bar again. Well, the fab again wasn't working out. My doc kept saying surgery because her left foot was so severe. At my wits end, I sent pictures to Dr. Ponseti. Dr. Ponseti recommended she be put in the brace instead of the standard issue Markells, because it is made especially for kids with difficult feet like our daughter's. UNtil the shoes arrived, Livi would need to be recasted (full leg casts). We are now SUCCESSFULLY complying with the Ponseti bracing protocol that we never could before. And the best news of all - Livi just finally started walking yesterday!!!! Who is your doctor? I wonder if any of the other parents on this board have any experience with him. It definately sounds like he is not using the Ponseti method. Studies have shown that wearing the brace (bar AND shoes) is essential to keeping the feet corrected, and parents who kept it on their kids had an almost non-existent relapse rate. Also, Ponseti always (as far as I know) does full leg casts. I know how overwhelming it can be when you are not sure what is best for your baby - I was in your shoes a couple months ago when my doc was telling me that Livi will need surgery. It's hard because you want to trust a doctor without question. That's why this group is great - we can help with all the support you need. I do strongly urge you to at least seek a second opinion - take some pictures and email Dr. Ponseti. We have all the contact info if you need it. It takes maybe a half hour to take the pics and write an email, but it will alleviate so much of your worry to know that the top club foot doc in the world has voiced his opinion on your little girl! I'm sorry this was so long - I just really hope you seek a second opinion. You can't undo a surgery, but it will always be an option for a last resort - might as well try everything else first I say! Darby Livi bi cf 3.15.04 p/m fab 16/7 > Hi everyone, > > I have a 16 month old daughter that was born with bilateral > clubfeet. She had casts put on her at 3 weeks till 6 months then had > the tendon surgery then casts again and then her doctor put her in > the shoes and bar. Well the bar was not to her liking at all so > after a couple of visits back to her doctor he decided to quit the > bar...said that they had found that the bar does not actually always > make and improvement. She still continued to wear the reverse last > shoes with built up soles. Well her left foot (which was always the > worst of the two) has started to drastically turn back in...the doc > said at her last appt. that if the outer muscle in her leg hasn't > strengthened up to start pulling the foot back out by the time she > goes back in August that he would go ahead and do the casting > again...this time with half casts (under her knees to her feet) so > that she can walk in them. My question is has anyone else had to do > this? The recasting when the child is walking. How did your child > adjust to the cast and was he/she able to walk? Plus she's also > having the tendon transfer surgery between the age of 2 and 3 so any > comments on that part of it would be greatly appreciated also!! > Thanks everyone! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 , Here is the link to Dr. Ponseti's list of " certified physicians in the method " : http://www.vh.org/pediatric/patient/orthopaedics/clubfeet/physicians.h tml As of right now there are *no* docs in Texas who are on the list. There is a dr. Lund, who a few parents have been recommending lately, who has just completed his certification and should be listed on the website soon. There are a few problems with the term " Ponseti certified " . Some docs claim to be Ponseti certified just because they spent some time training in Iowa but they must submit their case results to Ponseti with certain results in order to be truly " certified " and listed on the site. Secondly, there are even some docs who are on the list who have been known to modify the method with less than desirable results. In short, it sounds like your doctor is NOT practicing the Ponseti method -- there are NO studies that have shown the bar is not working that I am aware of (I would be curious what " studies " he is referencing) -- Ponseti does NOT recommend short leg casts even for " older " babies and I would pick up and run to the nearest well trained, certified Ponseti doc that we can recommend to you. I know that there are other parents who have found and are liking this Dr. Lund in TX, I'm sure someone will chime in here. Others have chosen to travel to St. Louis, not close, but the closest VERY experienced Ponseti doc, Dr. Dobbs. He is my son's doctor and we just love him. This group is awesome and we will be here for you to support you every step of the way, don't worry you are not alone -- recasting, while it may seem daunting, is something many, many of the parents here have done and it has worked out more than okay. Best wishes! Jenna (4/7/01) & Sammy (9/25/04, RCF, Dobbs Brace, 16-18/7) -- In nosurgery4clubfoot , " " <dragonswind22@h...> wrote: > Hi , > > The thing is....he IS Ponseti certified and said at last visit that > new studies have shown that the bar actually is not helping in a > large percentage of cases, so it would be pointless to put her back > in the bar....he said surgery is a definate because her case was so > severe....the left foot was always the most stubborn. I don't > know...I am totally stressed over this....crying right now because i > can't believe she's going to be recasted....thank you for the input > though...I am in Amarillo Texas area and her surgeon is Dr. Hamilton > at Cook's Children's hospital in Fort Worth Texas > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I have a 16 month old daughter that was born with bilateral > > > clubfeet. She had casts put on her at 3 weeks till 6 months then > > had > > > the tendon surgery then casts again and then her doctor put her > in > > > the shoes and bar. Well the bar was not to her liking at all so > > > after a couple of visits back to her doctor he decided to quit > the > > > bar...said that they had found that the bar does not actually > > always > > > make and improvement. She still continued to wear the reverse > last > > > shoes with built up soles. Well her left foot (which was always > > the > > > worst of the two) has started to drastically turn back in...the > > doc > > > said at her last appt. that if the outer muscle in her leg > hasn't > > > strengthened up to start pulling the foot back out by the time > she > > > goes back in August that he would go ahead and do the casting > > > again...this time with half casts (under her knees to her feet) > so > > > that she can walk in them. My question is has anyone else had to > > do > > > this? The recasting when the child is walking. How did your > child > > > adjust to the cast and was he/she able to walk? Plus she's also > > > having the tendon transfer surgery between the age of 2 and 3 so > > any > > > comments on that part of it would be greatly appreciated also!! > > > Thanks everyone! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 , What we mean here by " Ponseti certified " is that a doctor is on Dr Ponseti's list of doctors qualified in his method. This involves sending Dr Ponseti some paperwork and case studies of at least 3 successful treatments. If you take a look at this list at: http://www.vh.org/pediatric/patient/orthopaedics/clubfeet/physicians.html you will note that there are no doctors listed in Texas. There is, however, a doctor in the Dallas/Forth Worth area, Dr Lund, who has recently completed the requirements. You can find his contact information at: http://www.metrofootankle.com From what you tell us, if your doctor is saying that he is using the Ponseti method, he is seriously misleading you. For one thing, it should take no more than 9 Ponseti casts, even in the most severe cases, to complete the correction. For another thing, in the Ponseti method, use of the FAB/DBB is absolutely necessary in maintaining the correction. What the studies show--and what the experience of many families here shows--is that relapse of the clubfoot deformity is nearly certain if the FAB is not used. If there are studies contradicting this, we have not heard about them. And, quite frankly, we're an up-to-date bunch, we try to be as well-informed as possible. The shoes and bar can be torture for children whose feet are not fully corrected. This is a likely culprit for your daughter's unhappiness at the start. The FAB is not a correction device, but more like a retainer (as in when you have braces on your teeth, you wear a retainer to help keep the teeth nice and straight). At this point, it would probably not do her any good to go straight back into them, her feet need to be corrected first I strongly enourage you to seek out another opinion from a doctor who is more experienced wth the Ponseti method. 16 months is not too old to start over with someone else, it is not too late to avoid surgery. Yes, it will be a pain to deal with those casts at this age and they will take some working around, but your daughter will surprise you with her ability to adapt to them. There are families here who have done it, who are doing it right now. And we are all here to offer you support. Many families from Texas travel to St Louis, MO to see Dr Dobbs. He is one of the most experienced Ponseti method practitioners in the country and has had tremendous success treating " older " babies. He also works out of a Shriner's hospital where care is provided entirley free of charge. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with. We truly wish you and your daughter all the best. Naomi The Family Naomi Hannah(02/21/01) Jonah(06/20/03, corrected bilateral clubfoot, FAB 14/7) wrote: Hi , The thing is....he IS Ponseti certified and said at last visit that new studies have shown that the bar actually is not helping in a large percentage of cases, so it would be pointless to put her back in the bar....he said surgery is a definate because her case was so severe....the left foot was always the most stubborn. I don't know...I am totally stressed over this....crying right now because i can't believe she's going to be recasted....thank you for the input though...I am in Amarillo Texas area and her surgeon is Dr. Hamilton at Cook's Children's hospital in Fort Worth Texas --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 , What we mean here by " Ponseti certified " is that a doctor is on Dr Ponseti's list of doctors qualified in his method. This involves sending Dr Ponseti some paperwork and case studies of at least 3 successful treatments. If you take a look at this list at: http://www.vh.org/pediatric/patient/orthopaedics/clubfeet/physicians.html you will note that there are no doctors listed in Texas. There is, however, a doctor in the Dallas/Forth Worth area, Dr Lund, who has recently completed the requirements. You can find his contact information at: http://www.metrofootankle.com From what you tell us, if your doctor is saying that he is using the Ponseti method, he is seriously misleading you. For one thing, it should take no more than 9 Ponseti casts, even in the most severe cases, to complete the correction. For another thing, in the Ponseti method, use of the FAB/DBB is absolutely necessary in maintaining the correction. What the studies show--and what the experience of many families here shows--is that relapse of the clubfoot deformity is nearly certain if the FAB is not used. If there are studies contradicting this, we have not heard about them. And, quite frankly, we're an up-to-date bunch, we try to be as well-informed as possible. The shoes and bar can be torture for children whose feet are not fully corrected. This is a likely culprit for your daughter's unhappiness at the start. The FAB is not a correction device, but more like a retainer (as in when you have braces on your teeth, you wear a retainer to help keep the teeth nice and straight). At this point, it would probably not do her any good to go straight back into them, her feet need to be corrected first I strongly enourage you to seek out another opinion from a doctor who is more experienced wth the Ponseti method. 16 months is not too old to start over with someone else, it is not too late to avoid surgery. Yes, it will be a pain to deal with those casts at this age and they will take some working around, but your daughter will surprise you with her ability to adapt to them. There are families here who have done it, who are doing it right now. And we are all here to offer you support. Many families from Texas travel to St Louis, MO to see Dr Dobbs. He is one of the most experienced Ponseti method practitioners in the country and has had tremendous success treating " older " babies. He also works out of a Shriner's hospital where care is provided entirley free of charge. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with. We truly wish you and your daughter all the best. Naomi The Family Naomi Hannah(02/21/01) Jonah(06/20/03, corrected bilateral clubfoot, FAB 14/7) wrote: Hi , The thing is....he IS Ponseti certified and said at last visit that new studies have shown that the bar actually is not helping in a large percentage of cases, so it would be pointless to put her back in the bar....he said surgery is a definate because her case was so severe....the left foot was always the most stubborn. I don't know...I am totally stressed over this....crying right now because i can't believe she's going to be recasted....thank you for the input though...I am in Amarillo Texas area and her surgeon is Dr. Hamilton at Cook's Children's hospital in Fort Worth Texas --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I also wanted to mention that you can call/e-mail Dr. Ponseti directly. Just because they are Ponseti certified does NOT guarantee they will follow his protocol. It just means they received training by him in the past. I would also contact Dr. Ponseti just to confirm before you consent to any surgeries, just to make sure. Marcia Re: possible recasting Hi , Your daughter sounds kind of similar to my daughter Livi - she's also 16 months old and has a more severe left foot. We had a horrible (I cannot stress how much I hated those things) time with the shoes & bar (fab). We would put them on, then 5 minutes later, Livi's left foot would slip right out. And over and over again. When she turned one our doc was talking about doing a capsule release surgery, but was overridden by his boss, a Ponseti doc who suggested we do another tenotomy and recast, then try the bar again. Well, the fab again wasn't working out. My doc kept saying surgery because her left foot was so severe. At my wits end, I sent pictures to Dr. Ponseti. Dr. Ponseti recommended she be put in the brace instead of the standard issue Markells, because it is made especially for kids with difficult feet like our daughter's. UNtil the shoes arrived, Livi would need to be recasted (full leg casts). We are now SUCCESSFULLY complying with the Ponseti bracing protocol that we never could before. And the best news of all - Livi just finally started walking yesterday!!!! Who is your doctor? I wonder if any of the other parents on this board have any experience with him. It definately sounds like he is not using the Ponseti method. Studies have shown that wearing the brace (bar AND shoes) is essential to keeping the feet corrected, and parents who kept it on their kids had an almost non-existent relapse rate. Also, Ponseti always (as far as I know) does full leg casts. I know how overwhelming it can be when you are not sure what is best for your baby - I was in your shoes a couple months ago when my doc was telling me that Livi will need surgery. It's hard because you want to trust a doctor without question. That's why this group is great - we can help with all the support you need. I do strongly urge you to at least seek a second opinion - take some pictures and email Dr. Ponseti. We have all the contact info if you need it. It takes maybe a half hour to take the pics and write an email, but it will alleviate so much of your worry to know that the top club foot doc in the world has voiced his opinion on your little girl! I'm sorry this was so long - I just really hope you seek a second opinion. You can't undo a surgery, but it will always be an option for a last resort - might as well try everything else first I say! Darby Livi bi cf 3.15.04 p/m fab 16/7 > Hi everyone, > > I have a 16 month old daughter that was born with bilateral > clubfeet. She had casts put on her at 3 weeks till 6 months then had > the tendon surgery then casts again and then her doctor put her in > the shoes and bar. Well the bar was not to her liking at all so > after a couple of visits back to her doctor he decided to quit the > bar...said that they had found that the bar does not actually always > make and improvement. She still continued to wear the reverse last > shoes with built up soles. Well her left foot (which was always the > worst of the two) has started to drastically turn back in...the doc > said at her last appt. that if the outer muscle in her leg hasn't > strengthened up to start pulling the foot back out by the time she > goes back in August that he would go ahead and do the casting > again...this time with half casts (under her knees to her feet) so > that she can walk in them. My question is has anyone else had to do > this? The recasting when the child is walking. How did your child > adjust to the cast and was he/she able to walk? Plus she's also > having the tendon transfer surgery between the age of 2 and 3 so any > comments on that part of it would be greatly appreciated also!! > Thanks everyone! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 , I hate to hurt your feelings, but your doctor is waaaaaaaaaaaay off the Ponseti mark. First of all, your baby should only be in casts up to 6-8 weeks at the most! 6 months!!! That is an immediate red flag. The feet should be fully corrected before the DBB/FAB (shoes and bar) should be used. The shoes and bar are only used to hold the correction while the baby grows. The FAB will not continue to correct the babies feet. If I were you, I would get a second opinion ASAP before doing any surgeries. Recently, someone mentioned a DR. Lund in Dallas who is suppose to be great. Have you been to the official Ponseti site? http://www.vh.org/pediatric/patient/orthopaedics/clubfeet/index.html Sorry to jump at you. Please, please don't be naive about your doctor. When I read your post about him it really pissed me off. He completely thinks what he is doing is okay. We are here to help. I hope this post doesn't scare you away. Sorry, I am a little anxious today. Shook Retail Operations Manager/Baking Instructor Vie de France Yamazaki, Inc. 2070 Chain Bridge Rd. Suite 500 Vienna, VA 22182 x374 x374 fax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Hi , As a mom who has been there, I think my best advice is to seek a second opinion. My son was recasted at age 2 and he did fine. I bought him a view master w/slides and play doe, etc.... but I still had a hard time keeping him down. He still ran, walked, span in circles, etc. He made me a nervous wreck, but was fine. I think the only thing that disappointed him was missing out on baths. Feel free to e-mail me personally anytime if you have questions, etc at chele323232@... I am worried that your doctor wants to use short leg casts and has already told you she is going to have surgery at 2 or 3 when she's only 16 months? Our old doctors were always preparing us at each visit for future surgeries maybe at age 3, maybe at age 8, etc...that worries me. Do you mind me asking where you are located and what hospital, doctor you are using? Michele Yoder Collin's story at http://www.geocities.com/chele323232 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Hi everyone, Thank you all for all of your input. I am even more overwhelmed now! LOL I don't know how all this will turn out but I know when we go back in August I will be inquiring about the mitchell brace....he took her out of the markell brace to begin with because she wouldn't keep it on. For those of you wanting to know her doc's name is Dr. Hamilton at Cook's Childrens in Fort Worth....he really is a good doctor....i know he's not on the list but it's probably more my fault because i couldn't keep her in the shoes and bar. I'll see what happens in august and go from there. Again thanks for all the advice....i'm not ignoring any of it...just hoping the recasting helps and hopefully will be able to get the mitchell shoes! > Hi , > > As a mom who has been there, I think my best advice is to seek a > second opinion. My son was recasted at age 2 and he did fine. I > bought him a view master w/slides and play doe, etc.... but I still > had a hard time keeping him down. He still ran, walked, span in > circles, etc. He made me a nervous wreck, but was fine. I think the > only thing that disappointed him was missing out on baths. Feel free > to e-mail me personally anytime if you have questions, etc at > chele323232@y... I am worried that your doctor wants to use > short leg casts and has already told you she is going to have surgery > at 2 or 3 when she's only 16 months? Our old doctors were always > preparing us at each visit for future surgeries maybe at age 3, maybe > at age 8, etc...that worries me. Do you mind me asking where you are > located and what hospital, doctor you are using? > > Michele Yoder > Collin's story at http://www.geocities.com/chele323232 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Hi everyone, Thank you all for all of your input. I am even more overwhelmed now! LOL I don't know how all this will turn out but I know when we go back in August I will be inquiring about the mitchell brace....he took her out of the markell brace to begin with because she wouldn't keep it on. For those of you wanting to know her doc's name is Dr. Hamilton at Cook's Childrens in Fort Worth....he really is a good doctor....i know he's not on the list but it's probably more my fault because i couldn't keep her in the shoes and bar. I'll see what happens in august and go from there. Again thanks for all the advice....i'm not ignoring any of it...just hoping the recasting helps and hopefully will be able to get the mitchell shoes! > Hi , > > As a mom who has been there, I think my best advice is to seek a > second opinion. My son was recasted at age 2 and he did fine. I > bought him a view master w/slides and play doe, etc.... but I still > had a hard time keeping him down. He still ran, walked, span in > circles, etc. He made me a nervous wreck, but was fine. I think the > only thing that disappointed him was missing out on baths. Feel free > to e-mail me personally anytime if you have questions, etc at > chele323232@y... I am worried that your doctor wants to use > short leg casts and has already told you she is going to have surgery > at 2 or 3 when she's only 16 months? Our old doctors were always > preparing us at each visit for future surgeries maybe at age 3, maybe > at age 8, etc...that worries me. Do you mind me asking where you are > located and what hospital, doctor you are using? > > Michele Yoder > Collin's story at http://www.geocities.com/chele323232 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 , I still really hope you will seek a second opinion. Why not email Dr. Ponseti? It will be painless, I promise! If your daughter wasn't staying in the shoes to begin with, there's a good chance they weren't all the way corrected! No need to blame yourself. Your doc is not using the ponseti method. Short leg casts are not going to get the results you want. There's no point in getting a better brace to put her feet in if they aren't properly corrected in the first place. Please,please, please - a second opinion from a ponseti doc or Ponseti himself could not hurt anything!!! There's a great chance you can avoid surgery still, and all of the problems that go along with it. You will not regret getting a second opinion, and once you do, that totally overwhelmed feeling will probably go away! PLease let us know if there's any info you need as far as contacting docs who are Ponseti certified. Take care, Darby Livi 3.15.04 bi cf p/m fab 16/7 Y > > Hi , > > > > As a mom who has been there, I think my best advice is to seek a > > second opinion. My son was recasted at age 2 and he did fine. I > > bought him a view master w/slides and play doe, etc.... but I > still > > had a hard time keeping him down. He still ran, walked, span in > > circles, etc. He made me a nervous wreck, but was fine. I think > the > > only thing that disappointed him was missing out on baths. Feel > free > > to e-mail me personally anytime if you have questions, etc at > > chele323232@y... I am worried that your doctor wants to use > > short leg casts and has already told you she is going to have > surgery > > at 2 or 3 when she's only 16 months? Our old doctors were always > > preparing us at each visit for future surgeries maybe at age 3, > maybe > > at age 8, etc...that worries me. Do you mind me asking where you > are > > located and what hospital, doctor you are using? > > > > Michele Yoder > > Collin's story at http://www.geocities.com/chele323232 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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