Re: struggles and triumphs

[Guest guest]

Donna... you know, it must be compounded by a 1000 percent, given the situation your husband is in. I felt so responsible for Steve, worried about his happiness, whether he'd be ok. He didn't have many (any) friends in the area independent of me...and his family is all back East. So, I made sure that my family and friends reached out to him, too. Some of them decided against it...but others have been great. He didn't have a real job when I left, he was only doing contract work, inconsistently. I had to sign his lease, and pay for the move, and help him with the downpayments. But, he got on his feet, and he paid me back some money, and he got a full-time job where is just thriving...and he's managing to get out there and have a life. I'm thrilled for him, because I was really worried for a long time. ANd in a way, that's appropriate for a

wife, it's appropriate for someone who loves and cares about the other person. But, at the same time, it kind of showed the unequal relationship...and that in some ways I had to play a parent role. But, I felt so guilty and so responsible...so I can imagine how it is for you.. You'[ll have to be vigilent about keeping your head clear, remembering that you are not responsible for his mental illness...nor are you responsible for anything he might do as a result of that illness. Easily said...not so easily accomplished. Good luck, and if you ever need to talk...I'm here. RobynnDonna Jordon wrote: Robynn You know how tough it was for you to leave Steve. Well think about feeling bad because he

has mental illness which wasn't there when you married and has gotten worse through the years. Then to wonder will he be all right, able to handle all he needs to and on and on. It's very very tough, but I will make sure life isn't bad. We have friends right down the road from his new house, and many of our friends here are looking forward to going up to the beautiful place enjoying fishing and all with him. I think this is good for all of us, but a very had thing to do. Thank you again sweety. Take care. DonnaRobynn VanPatten wrote: Thanks Donna...I've often wondered what it must feel like to be you. I am proud of you for the steps you've taken recently. They are tough, I can only imagine...but it sounds like something you really need to do for yourself.

big hugs, Robynn Donna Jordon wrote: Robynn You said this so true, I am going to hug you for all the insight someday when I meet you. Francisco listen to this lady, she sure knows what shes talking about. Thank you both for all the wonderful words of wisdom and the amazing insight. Take care. DonnaRobynn VanPatten wrote: Francisco... I think your dad, who no doubt has his own problems, is probably exhausted from living with somebody who is mentally ill. That is a very very hard road, as Donna can attest.

The person who is ill, whether it be mentally or physically, gets all of the attention...and the family structure necessarily revolves around that person. If you've ever seen Bradshaw, who speaks about "shame", he uses a very effective tool to demonstrate this. He uses one of those mobiles, you know...the type that hangs over a baby's crib. He shows that if you move one piece of the mobile, all of the other pieces alter their movement to conform with the moving piece. That person drives the path that the family structure takes. ANd it affects every other piece in a different way. It's hard to be patient, and it's hard to always do the right thing. Everyone reacts differently to that kind of stress. And it's hard to have somebody's bad behaviour always be justified because that person is "ill". I think that mental illness is the hardest thing to

handle, because it is a normal reaction to believe on some level that the person who is ill can somehow control it. Control the behaviour. It takes a special person to maintain constant compassion, and to realize that the illness is really the thing dictating the behaviour. And you are a special person. It could be that he is lashing out at you, and made that comment, because he feels that he falls short. That he fails as a spouse, and that, in some ways, she finds more comfort in you than in him. There could be a bit of a father/son competition that is going on...without you even being cognizant of it. Maybe he isn't even consciously aware of it. Additionally, many times people resent others who are able to rise above their own selfishness. Because, it is like a mirror, isn't it? you see your own failures and shortcomings in the reflection..because you compare your own

reactions to those who are reacting in a more unselfish manner. And to be perfectly fair to your father...while her illness has had a horrible impact on you all...you guys can walk away to some degree. You can live in a separate house, and find your emotional fulfillment with Steve and others. If he sought other company, he'd be a bad guy. If he left the house, he'd be a bad guy. So, it's like he's stuck, doing the best he can, and really getting very little back...and it's exhausting. And when he loses his patience, or he thinks about leaving...he has to feel awful and guilty and then ultimately, he starts to question whether he's entitled to any happiness. He sees you, his son, finding health and happiness...and finding this compassion for her...and he probably feels torn between his pride and happiness for you...and jealousy. Jealous because you have the promise of a better life than

he has. It was bad to say it, and I know it hurt you. But you said he really isn't a bad guy...and so I imagine he's just tired and hopeless...and he sees no light at the end of the tunnel. And...you know...sometimes kids come waltzing in (not saying you did that, but that may be how he perceives it) and try to take over as the spouse or parent figure. He lives this reality day in and day out as the partner of somebody who is ill...and I imagine that it's easy for him to feel angry and defensive, to the extent that he may perceive that you and your siblings are overly protective of your mother...and not overly compassionate to him. So...I guess all I can say that might help you ultimately let go of the hurt and disappointement is try and channel into your compassion for him and his situation. By so doing, you may not feel the barbs of his comment as strongly, because you'll

get that it isn't really about you. And while, as children, you can't choose yoiur parents...and he, of course, chose his spouse, so it may seem like he deserves less compassion for his injuries than the children of that marriage deserve...I think I remember that you were raised Catholic, and your parents are from cultures where divorce is not an option. So, even though he made his choice, and so...in a way, he had more control over his destiny with your mother than you did...one can certainly admire him for sticking to that decision...and one can understand why sometimes he is very angry and why he feels sorry for himself for the lot he has undertaken. I'm sure your mother is wonderful in many, many ways. But a person who is mentally ill is simply not capable of being an equal partner in a marriage. Things wind up revolving around her, her needs, her limitations, her

capabilities. That doesn't leave a lot of room for his needs. And he's expected not to really have any limitations...because he has to be strong for her. that's got to be a tough tough thing. You are a compassionate soul, my friend. I'm glad you are there for your mom. You can be there for her as a relief pitcher...because your dad's arm is tired, and his aim isn't as true right now. Good luck, my friend. Kisses on your wounded heart. RobynnLilka wrote: Francisco, I am so overwhelmed with your message. What can make a person want to be so mean? I know they don't want to be so mean. It is something angry inside of them that hits out. I have been mean in my life sometimes. I always hate it. I sound

so harsh and hard when I am really like a marshmellow. I have been better in the last years after so much anger was let go but I know I can be mean sometimes and I always regret it. We must all try to connect more with love than with the anger. Your father actually told you what he said. That is amazing and I don't know what he wanted from that action. Did he want to release his guilt? Did he want you to know how cruel he could be? I think he was overwhelmed with remourse and had to let it go but he did not need to do it to you. Too bad he does not have a support system and I'm just glad you do. With love, Lilka>> Hello everyone:> > My mom was taken to the hospital last night. She was taken away by > the police after an argument with my father.> > She is in the

mental hospital, and I'm just overwhelmed by it all.> > My father and brother (who's mental illness is controlled by heavy > medication) have not gone to see her in the hospital, but I did last > night.> > She's OK, I guess, but it breaks my heart to see her that way--so > tiny, so vulnerable. I just took her in my arms, trying to love her > as much as I could as if the love in my heart were enough to take > away all her pain. I let her sit back for a while, watching her doze > off as I rubbed her feet.> > My father can be so emotionally abusive to her. He told me yesterday > that sometimes he gets so mad at her. He told me that he said to > her, "If you [referring to my mom] die before me, I'll just shove > your ashes in with your mother [my grandmother], and you can spend > eternity with her."> > I can't believe my

father would say something so cruel to my mother. > I would be incapable of saying something like that to someone I love, > but that's just me. I'm much too sensitive. It would hurt me too > much to hurt someone like that.> > My mother's mother was very abusive and caused my mother to have a > very traumatic childhood. But my father isn't all bad. His > childhood was no picnic either. I wish things were different, but I > can't force my parents to treat each other with loving kindness.> > Nothing is black and white. Both my mother and father play a role in > their relationship. They both can be verbally abusive of each > other. That is why I keep a distance from them. I have to protect > my sanity. The memories I have as a child, holding my mother's hand > in a mental hospital (while my father and

brother had gone home) > haunt me to this day.> > The seering pain coupled with utter powerlessness to help my mother > was hard to bear as an eight-year old. Holding my mother's hand as > she wandering aimlessly in that mental hospital, looking for someone > to help her, to ease all the wounds inflicted by her alcolic, abusive > mother left me forever changed.> > My mother is an incredibly loving person despite her traumatic past. > I have seen such beauty in the world through her eyes. She taught me > love of art, music and dance. She sees the good in people and can > make friends so easily. She has always been such a loving mother to > me. She was the first person who I told I was gay, and she offered > me unconditional love, as she always had. > > I started to cry when my father told me that he said

that to my > mother. I think my reaction surprised him. But out of respect for > him, I didn't tell him how I felt. There was a sort of unspoken, > heart-wrenching sorrow I felt, as my father--once to big and strong--> looked to old, small and pitiful as he ate his lunch. I know he is > sorry that he said that to my mother. That's why he was telling me > about it.> > I'm rambling. Thank God Steve is back in San Francisco. We're > spending the rest of the day together. His son will be in the > hospital for 6 months recovering from another bout with Crohn's > disease.> > I'm looking forward to the respite of his arms. We talked last night > on the phone, and he was so sympathetic and comforting. He > said, "I'm here for you. Tell me as much as you need to so you can > get it out."

I'm happy that I can be of some comfort to him too.> > It's amazing how resorative a simple hug can be. A touch can ease > such deep pain.> > While I may have my challenges, like we all do, thank God for support > of people like Steve, and like all of you.> > I can no longer depend on my old anesthesia of food to deaden the > pain. But crying is OK. And hugs, whether in person or via email, > satisfy at a deeper and more meaningful level.> > Hugs to you all. Welcome to the other side you wonderful newbies. > And strength to all of you who still struggle with the 10% (or > more). We're all here for each other.> > We are so blessed to have this virtual space where we can let out the > old demons and move on with life, no longer using food as a crutch.> >

Francisco>Donna JordonDSJordon@... Yahoo! MailBring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Donna JordonDSJordon@... Yahoo! MailUse Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Guest guest]

THANKS ROBYNN!!! DonnaRobynn VanPatten wrote: Donna... you know, it must be compounded by a 1000 percent, given the situation your husband is in. I felt so responsible for Steve, worried about his happiness, whether he'd be ok. He didn't have many (any) friends in the area independent of me...and his family is all back East. So, I made sure that my family and friends reached out to him, too. Some of them decided against it...but others have been great. He didn't have a real job when I left, he was only doing contract work, inconsistently. I had to sign his lease, and pay for the move, and help him with the downpayments. But, he got on his feet, and he paid me back some money, and he got a full-time job where is just

thriving...and he's managing to get out there and have a life. I'm thrilled for him, because I was really worried for a long time. ANd in a way, that's appropriate for a wife, it's appropriate for someone who loves and cares about the other person. But, at the same time, it kind of showed the unequal relationship...and that in some ways I had to play a parent role. But, I felt so guilty and so responsible...so I can imagine how it is for you.. You'[ll have to be vigilent about keeping your head clear, remembering that you are not responsible for his mental illness...nor are you responsible for anything he might do as a result of that illness. Easily said...not so easily accomplished. Good luck, and if you ever need to talk...I'm here. RobynnDonna Jordon wrote: Robynn You know how tough it was for you to leave Steve. Well think about feeling bad because he has mental illness which wasn't there when you married and has gotten worse through the years. Then to wonder will he be all right, able to handle all he needs to and on and on. It's very very tough, but I will make sure life isn't bad. We have friends right down the road from his new house, and many of our friends here are looking forward to going up to the beautiful place enjoying fishing and all with him. I think this is good for all of us, but a very had thing to do. Thank you again sweety. Take care. DonnaRobynn VanPatten wrote: Thanks Donna...I've often wondered

what it must feel like to be you. I am proud of you for the steps you've taken recently. They are tough, I can only imagine...but it sounds like something you really need to do for yourself. big hugs, Robynn Donna Jordon wrote: Robynn You said this so true, I am going to hug you for all the insight someday when I meet you. Francisco listen to this lady, she sure knows what shes talking about. Thank you both for all the wonderful words of wisdom and the amazing insight. Take care. DonnaRobynn VanPatten wrote: Francisco... I think your dad, who no doubt has his own problems, is probably exhausted from living with somebody who is mentally ill. That is a very very hard road, as Donna can attest. The person who is ill, whether it be mentally or physically, gets all of the attention...and the family structure necessarily revolves around that person. If you've ever seen Bradshaw, who speaks about "shame", he uses a very effective tool to demonstrate this. He uses one of those mobiles, you know...the type that hangs over a baby's crib. He shows that if you move one piece of the mobile, all of the other pieces alter their movement to conform with the moving piece. That person drives the path that the family structure takes. ANd it affects every other piece in a different way. It's hard to be patient, and it's hard to always do the right thing. Everyone

reacts differently to that kind of stress. And it's hard to have somebody's bad behaviour always be justified because that person is "ill". I think that mental illness is the hardest thing to handle, because it is a normal reaction to believe on some level that the person who is ill can somehow control it. Control the behaviour. It takes a special person to maintain constant compassion, and to realize that the illness is really the thing dictating the behaviour. And you are a special person. It could be that he is lashing out at you, and made that comment, because he feels that he falls short. That he fails as a spouse, and that, in some ways, she finds more comfort in you than in him. There could be a bit of a father/son competition that is going on...without you even being cognizant of it. Maybe he isn't even consciously aware of it. Additionally, many times people

resent others who are able to rise above their own selfishness. Because, it is like a mirror, isn't it? you see your own failures and shortcomings in the reflection..because you compare your own reactions to those who are reacting in a more unselfish manner. And to be perfectly fair to your father...while her illness has had a horrible impact on you all...you guys can walk away to some degree. You can live in a separate house, and find your emotional fulfillment with Steve and others. If he sought other company, he'd be a bad guy. If he left the house, he'd be a bad guy. So, it's like he's stuck, doing the best he can, and really getting very little back...and it's exhausting. And when he loses his patience, or he thinks about leaving...he has to feel awful and guilty and then ultimately, he starts to question whether he's entitled to any happiness. He sees you, his son, finding

health and happiness...and finding this compassion for her...and he probably feels torn between his pride and happiness for you...and jealousy. Jealous because you have the promise of a better life than he has. It was bad to say it, and I know it hurt you. But you said he really isn't a bad guy...and so I imagine he's just tired and hopeless...and he sees no light at the end of the tunnel. And...you know...sometimes kids come waltzing in (not saying you did that, but that may be how he perceives it) and try to take over as the spouse or parent figure. He lives this reality day in and day out as the partner of somebody who is ill...and I imagine that it's easy for him to feel angry and defensive, to the extent that he may perceive that you and your siblings are overly protective of your mother...and not overly compassionate to him. So...I guess all I can say that might help you ultimately

let go of the hurt and disappointement is try and channel into your compassion for him and his situation. By so doing, you may not feel the barbs of his comment as strongly, because you'll get that it isn't really about you. And while, as children, you can't choose yoiur parents...and he, of course, chose his spouse, so it may seem like he deserves less compassion for his injuries than the children of that marriage deserve...I think I remember that you were raised Catholic, and your parents are from cultures where divorce is not an option. So, even though he made his choice, and so...in a way, he had more control over his destiny with your mother than you did...one can certainly admire him for sticking to that decision...and one can understand why sometimes he is very angry and why he feels sorry for himself for the lot he has undertaken. I'm sure your mother is wonderful in

many, many ways. But a person who is mentally ill is simply not capable of being an equal partner in a marriage. Things wind up revolving around her, her needs, her limitations, her capabilities. That doesn't leave a lot of room for his needs. And he's expected not to really have any limitations...because he has to be strong for her. that's got to be a tough tough thing. You are a compassionate soul, my friend. I'm glad you are there for your mom. You can be there for her as a relief pitcher...because your dad's arm is tired, and his aim isn't as true right now. Good luck, my friend. Kisses on your wounded heart. RobynnLilka wrote: Francisco, I am so overwhelmed with your message. What can make a

person want to be so mean? I know they don't want to be so mean. It is something angry inside of them that hits out. I have been mean in my life sometimes. I always hate it. I sound so harsh and hard when I am really like a marshmellow. I have been better in the last years after so much anger was let go but I know I can be mean sometimes and I always regret it. We must all try to connect more with love than with the anger. Your father actually told you what he said. That is amazing and I don't know what he wanted from that action. Did he want to release his guilt? Did he want you to know how cruel he could be? I think he was overwhelmed with remourse and had to let it go but he did not need to do it to you. Too bad he does not have a support system and I'm just glad you do. With love, Lilka>>

Hello everyone:> > My mom was taken to the hospital last night. She was taken away by > the police after an argument with my father.> > She is in the mental hospital, and I'm just overwhelmed by it all.> > My father and brother (who's mental illness is controlled by heavy > medication) have not gone to see her in the hospital, but I did last > night.> > She's OK, I guess, but it breaks my heart to see her that way--so > tiny, so vulnerable. I just took her in my arms, trying to love her > as much as I could as if the love in my heart were enough to take > away all her pain. I let her sit back for a while, watching her doze > off as I rubbed her feet.> > My father can be so emotionally abusive to her. He told me yesterday > that sometimes he gets so mad at her. He told me that he said to > her, "If you

[referring to my mom] die before me, I'll just shove > your ashes in with your mother [my grandmother], and you can spend > eternity with her."> > I can't believe my father would say something so cruel to my mother. > I would be incapable of saying something like that to someone I love, > but that's just me. I'm much too sensitive. It would hurt me too > much to hurt someone like that.> > My mother's mother was very abusive and caused my mother to have a > very traumatic childhood. But my father isn't all bad. His > childhood was no picnic either. I wish things were different, but I > can't force my parents to treat each other with loving kindness.> > Nothing is black and white. Both my mother and father play a role in > their relationship. They both can be verbally abusive of each > other. That is why I

keep a distance from them. I have to protect > my sanity. The memories I have as a child, holding my mother's hand > in a mental hospital (while my father and brother had gone home) > haunt me to this day.> > The seering pain coupled with utter powerlessness to help my mother > was hard to bear as an eight-year old. Holding my mother's hand as > she wandering aimlessly in that mental hospital, looking for someone > to help her, to ease all the wounds inflicted by her alcolic, abusive > mother left me forever changed.> > My mother is an incredibly loving person despite her traumatic past. > I have seen such beauty in the world through her eyes. She taught me > love of art, music and dance. She sees the good in people and can > make friends so easily. She has always been such a loving mother to >

me. She was the first person who I told I was gay, and she offered > me unconditional love, as she always had. > > I started to cry when my father told me that he said that to my > mother. I think my reaction surprised him. But out of respect for > him, I didn't tell him how I felt. There was a sort of unspoken, > heart-wrenching sorrow I felt, as my father--once to big and strong--> looked to old, small and pitiful as he ate his lunch. I know he is > sorry that he said that to my mother. That's why he was telling me > about it.> > I'm rambling. Thank God Steve is back in San Francisco. We're > spending the rest of the day together. His son will be in the > hospital for 6 months recovering from another bout with Crohn's > disease.> > I'm looking forward to the respite of his arms. We talked

last night > on the phone, and he was so sympathetic and comforting. He > said, "I'm here for you. Tell me as much as you need to so you can > get it out." I'm happy that I can be of some comfort to him too.> > It's amazing how resorative a simple hug can be. A touch can ease > such deep pain.> > While I may have my challenges, like we all do, thank God for support > of people like Steve, and like all of you.> > I can no longer depend on my old anesthesia of food to deaden the > pain. But crying is OK. And hugs, whether in person or via email, > satisfy at a deeper and more meaningful level.> > Hugs to you all. Welcome to the other side you wonderful newbies. > And strength to all of you who still struggle with the 10% (or > more). We're all here for each other.> > We are so

blessed to have this virtual space where we can let out the > old demons and move on with life, no longer using food as a crutch.> > Francisco>Donna JordonDSJordon@... Yahoo! MailBring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Donna JordonDSJordon@... Yahoo! MailUse Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Donna JordonDSJordon@...

Yahoo! Mail

Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.