Re: labs, symptoms & herbs - ELAINE & others?

[Guest guest]

Hi Melvin,

Glad to hear from you, and also very encouraged by your great results. I've

never taken these herbs, but logically it would seem like time to reduce

your dose of each a bit and see if it has an effect. You might also get a

TSI run, for another important clue.

Could you share with us where you get your tinctures? I've always shied away

since I wasn't sure of finding a good source.

Thanks,

Terry

>

> Reply-To: graves_support

> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:01:09 -0000

> To: graves_support

> Subject: labs, symptoms & herbs - ELAINE & others?

>

> Hi all,

>

> My labs continue to improve. A quick review of me: 1 1/2 years ago I

> had 'blinding' double vision and reactions to TAP; then I refused RAI

> and went the alternative route. The double vison cleared up within a

> few weeks - possibly on it's own, but my thyroid levels were quite

> hyper. The latest results show FT4 and T3 normal, which they've been

> for almost a year. TSH is now .21; .27 or higher is considered normal

> for me; my TSH was negligable for my first year of tests until last

> Spring, when it registered .10. Because I show no major symptoms and

> my levels are so good, I'm considered 'subclinical graves'. I have an

> endo who's willing to monitor me, while I treat myself with a

> combination on bugleweed, lemonbalm and motherwort tinctures; I take 5

> - 10 drops of each a day in a glass of water. I've been doing this

> for about 8 months now. My basic question is when do I stop doing

> this? I'm concerned about going 'hypo', and have been feeling more

> tired than usual lately and had some muscle aches and some brain fog,

> too; all of these are hypo symptoms. I realize that TSH takes 6 weeks

> to show changes. Does anyone have any experience with this or

> suggestions as to when I should stop the herbs? My endo has no

> idea and is willing to leave it up to me, which is why I'm turning to

> the group. Thank you. I wish all of you well.

>

> Melvin in Maine

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not

> intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> --------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Terry,

I buy my herbal tinctures at a local health food store; they are made

by Avena Botanicals of Rockport, ME. I know the owner of Avena and

believe in her high standards of quality; the company has an excellent

reputation; everything is grown organic or taken from the wild. I

haven't had a recent TSI; in the past my levels were always exactly

in the middle of the the 'indeterminate' range, which I took to mean

neither hyper not hypo. I believe it's time to 'reduce my dose', too;

however, it's already so low (5 drops daily) that maybe it's time to

stop - especially with my recent 'tiredness' and 'foginess'. I'm

hoping someone, who has used these herbs will be able to provide some

insight. I posted my original message to the alternative autoimmune

group, too. It's nice to hear from you, too. I wish you and everyone

well.

Melvin

> Hi Melvin,

>

> Glad to hear from you, and also very encouraged by your great

results. I've

> never taken these herbs, but logically it would seem like time to

reduce

> your dose of each a bit and see if it has an effect. You might also

get a

> TSI run, for another important clue.

>

> Could you share with us where you get your tinctures? I've always

shied away

> since I wasn't sure of finding a good source.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Terry

[Guest guest]

Hi Melvin,

I guess I don't know what the dosage in drops is--I assumed 5 was a normal

sort of dose. Is it usually more? Wouldn't going from 5 to 4 to 3 etc. be a

good way to figure out whether you need any? tired and foggy is my least

favorite state, so I understand your desire to just end that phase!

Terry

>

> Reply-To: graves_support

> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:46:17 -0000

> To: graves_support

> Subject: Re: labs, symptoms & herbs - ELAINE & others?

>

> Hi Terry,

>

> I buy my herbal tinctures at a local health food store; they are made

> by Avena Botanicals of Rockport, ME. I know the owner of Avena and

> believe in her high standards of quality; the company has an excellent

> reputation; everything is grown organic or taken from the wild. I

> haven't had a recent TSI; in the past my levels were always exactly

> in the middle of the the 'indeterminate' range, which I took to mean

> neither hyper not hypo. I believe it's time to 'reduce my dose', too;

> however, it's already so low (5 drops daily) that maybe it's time to

> stop - especially with my recent 'tiredness' and 'foginess'. I'm

> hoping someone, who has used these herbs will be able to provide some

> insight. I posted my original message to the alternative autoimmune

> group, too. It's nice to hear from you, too. I wish you and everyone

> well.

>

> Melvin

>

>

>> Hi Melvin,

>>

>> Glad to hear from you, and also very encouraged by your great

> results. I've

>> never taken these herbs, but logically it would seem like time to

> reduce

>> your dose of each a bit and see if it has an effect. You might also

> get a

>> TSI run, for another important clue.

>>

>> Could you share with us where you get your tinctures? I've always

> shied away

>> since I wasn't sure of finding a good source.

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> Terry

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not

> intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> --------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Melvin,

While you're on meds, either ATDs or herbs, TSH isn't very reliable and not

recommended for monitoring. Most endos wouldn't even say that you had

subclinical hyperT because of the problems with using TSH. You should be

monitored with

FT4 and FT3 to make sure they're not too low. Even if they're within range,

you can experience hypothyroid symptoms if they're too low for you. For

instance, FT4 has a reference range of 0.8-1.8 in most labs, and many people

feel

hypo if their FT4 is lower than 1.4. Take care, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Wow! Elaine!!

I think you got it!! My FT4 is 1.07; normal for me is .90 - 1.70. I

think I'll take a break from the herbs for a while. Thank you sooo

much!!

Melvin

> Hi Melvin,

> While you're on meds, either ATDs or herbs, TSH isn't very reliable

and not

> recommended for monitoring. Most endos wouldn't even say that you

had

> subclinical hyperT because of the problems with using TSH. You

should be monitored with

> FT4 and FT3 to make sure they're not too low. Even if they're within

range,

> you can experience hypothyroid symptoms if they're too low for you.

For

> instance, FT4 has a reference range of 0.8-1.8 in most labs, and

many people feel

> hypo if their FT4 is lower than 1.4. Take care, Elaine

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Melvin,

Been following your saga of success all along, but have not had anything to

add up until now.

I totally agree that most of us do find the upper portion of the F T labs

are what we feel best at. Mine so far seems to be from 1.25 and up just a

tad, on the same scale you are using.

I saw the 1.40 that Elaine mentioned, and now I am wondering if my feeling

fine could be better ? Not sure. But just happen to be getting labs soon, so

I will have time to think on this possibility.

With my remission at over 1 1/2 years now, I do find I am always nervous

about anything that might upset my apple cart though.

But... on to my point. :-)

When I stopped my herbs, I found I had to do it very slowly. I had symptoms

at each reduction the first three days, but if I had gone down too much, the

symptoms were worse, and I upped the dose a bit.

I stopped the strongest herb first. The Bugleweed. Once it seemed I was

getting hypo again, I then started lowering my Lemon balm. I went from five

drops of lemon balm ( yes... odd that it was 5 huh ? ) to four, then three

and so on. In the end it turned into a rather odd thing. I ended carrying my

little bottle of Lemon Balm with me anytime I left the house. Then when I

had something happen that set me off, I stuck a drop or two under my tongue

and went in search of water. These occasions became fewer and more spread

out over a few months.

You see I can feel the Lemon Balm calm me down in only a few minutes. And my

eyes respond in less than an hour. Not a big change, but enough to feel it.

Oh... And on any reduction of my PTU which I was on before the herbs, and

then each reduction in the herbs, my eyes were the first thing I always felt

respond. At first I panicked the instant they started to burn, but in time

found to wait out the dryness and slight burn and see if they settled down.

I did find it was a pattern for me to have the burning the first three days

of each reduction.

From there I am not sure how to explain the severity of the burning. I did

have some reductions or triggers that made them burn TOO much, and I knew I

had tried to move too fast.

These are the two herbs that affect our thyroid numbers AND antibodies. Why

not get the proper antibody tests before ever completely going off all the

thyroid herbs. Better safe than sorry ya know.

Also keep in mind, remission does not mean we get to return to our past

hyper triggers. All of them still bother me.

BUT... I have MY thyroid gland !!!

Hope this helps,

-Pam L-

3 1/2 years Graves', TED, and PTU. Remission due to SLOW reduction of PTU

(despite an incompetent endo ! ), improved lifestyle, excellent nutrition,

herbs, and looking at the big picture.

Pills alone only help the symptoms. We must help our bodies to heal.

[Guest guest]

Hi Melvin,

Glad that helped and thanks so much for being such a source of support for

Jody. You're truly an inspiration for her. Best, Elaine

[Guest guest]

Hi Elaine,

Hmmm... I've been thinking. Perhaps it's not so simple. My

FT3 is low (1.07 vs. range of .9 - 1.7); thus, I jumped at your

suggestion that this could be why I've been more tired and foggy

lately. However, my T3 is high. Note: my endo won't measure FT3,

because he says T4 converts to T3 anyway; I posted this over a year

ago and you 'sort of' concurred. Anyway, my T3 is on the high end of

normal (193.3 vs. range of 80 - 200). [FYI: we didn't do TSI this

time because they have always been smack dab in the middle of

indeterminate; and while we know it's almost irrelevant, it is worth

noting again that my TSH has gone from less than .02 to .21 or almost

normal].

So my question is - with one reading low and the other high - should I

be cutting back on ATD's or not ? This, of course, is complicated

because I've been using the herbs Bugleweed, Lemonbalm and Motherwort.

So, let's pretend I was using PTU or TAP. What do you usually

suggest when someone is taking PTU or TAP and one lab is on the low

end of medium and the other on the high end? If anyone else has any

insight or knowledge, please jump in. Perhaps I should be lower my

dose of one or 2 herbs but not the other(s)?

P.S. Thanks for you encouraging words about Jody. I've been the

normal and alternative route with a mild heart attack, too; and have

been telling her as much as I know. YOU are the inspiration!

Melvin

> Hi Melvin,

> Glad that helped and thanks so much for being such a source of

support for

> Jody. You're truly an inspiration for her. Best, Elaine

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Melvin,

Total T3 is not as accurate as Free T3.

Total T3 is inactive and contains free T3 as well as the binding proteins

that carry thyroid hormone through the blood. In this form, T3 has no activity.

It has to be first cleaved or split from the protein molecules. In its free

from, T3, that is free T3, can react with the body's cells.

Total T3 can be falsely elevated or decreased if your binding protein levels

are high or low. These proteins are affected by a ton of different medications

and hormones including non-steroidal anti-inflammatory meds, blood pressure

meds etc.

This is why labs had to develop tests to measure free thyroid hormone.

In someone not on any meds and with a perfectly normal metabolism, T4 and T3

are more or less accurate but many people have misleading results.

I think your FT3 is too low and the total T3 is falsely elevated. Take care,

Elaine