Re: Breastmilk and casein-free

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Bear with me please...I asked this question a few weeks ago. Hoping there

might be some additional or new insight at this time. I can't seem to get to

the bottom of this problem.

My son had a urinary peptide test which showed a casomorphin level of over

200 - the highest level my doctor's ever seen. My son has been casein-free

for the past year and a half, with occasional infractions. However, he is

still nursing. Since breastmilk contains casein, does this account for my

son's high casomorphin level? Has nursing him been the wrong thing to do,

when all along I though nursing was the very best thing to do since I can see

he's having a lot of food allergy problems? And yes, I've been as casein-free

as my son all along. Any input?

Thanks,

Debbie

[Guest guest]

You are doing everything right-not allowing casein yourself, breast milk

does contain casein, but from what I understand will not effect peptide test

levels-If I have learned anything its that there is always exceptions to the

rule-so If you feel weaning him may be to his benefit try it.I breastfed

both my boys and am a big advocate for it but most of the benefits from

breastfeeding _providing important immune system boosters-is obtained in the

first three months of nursing if you are past that 3 months you could wean

him and still know you have done what is best for him. Good luck I bet

n could give you a better answer on this one. LIsa F----- Original

Message -----

To: <GFCFKids >

Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 11:54 AM

Subject: Re: Breastmilk and casein-free

> Hi all,

>

> Bear with me please...I asked this question a few weeks ago. Hoping there

> might be some additional or new insight at this time. I can't seem to get

to

> the bottom of this problem.

>

> My son had a urinary peptide test which showed a casomorphin level of over

> 200 - the highest level my doctor's ever seen. My son has been casein-free

> for the past year and a half, with occasional infractions. However, he is

> still nursing. Since breastmilk contains casein, does this account for my

> son's high casomorphin level? Has nursing him been the wrong thing to do,

> when all along I though nursing was the very best thing to do since I can

see

> he's having a lot of food allergy problems? And yes, I've been as

casein-free

> as my son all along. Any input?

>

> Thanks,

> Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<< BTW, I may have

told you already, but Pam at Great Plains Lab says

that their test only measures bovine casein, not human

casein, so she assured me that my son's levels were

not due to the fact that I was breastfeeding. >>

My doctor and I talked about this a bit, and he had one of his breastfeeding

mothers send a sample of breastmilk to Great Plains for the peptide test and

the test came back very high on casomorphin, so I wonder if what Pam said is

true. I corresponded with a Janet at Great Plains who said that casein in

breastmilk does not pass through to the baby. This didn't sound right at all

to me. I would think that of course casein passes through to the baby; it's a

major component of breastmilk.

And yes, we were off soy, but it was one of the last foods we dropped before

testing. However, we never had a lot of it, maybe only a soy dog a few times

a weeks, no soy beverage.

This issue is really bugging me! Thanks for your input!

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

I thought I'd take a shot at your question, though I realize what I say

might be a bit controversial.

I've been studying neurodevelopment and breastmilk for many years now, and

I think it is quite logical to conclude that casein, and probably its

peptides that we detect in urine, have a very important biological function

in infants of mammals...we're the creatures on this planet who develop much

more than the " reptilian " brain, and end up with a large and very talented

cortex.

My suspicions are that casein probably has some effects in regulating

sulfation...perhaps regulating one thing that in animal studies has been

found to change after weaning...and that is this: the percentage of the

sulfate that is in the blood that will be allowed to stay in the cerebral

spinal fluid.

I read a study today showing that four times as much sulfate is allowed in

the CSF in kittens as compared to cats, but in cats, only 1% of the blood

levels of sulfate are permitted to be in the brain's fluid. I believe that

is because what is happening with sulfate in the brain needs to be a very

slow and steady process, and like baking a cake, you don't want to turn up

the heat too far, or you " burn " something. I also suspect that this

process of brain sulfation is a bit forgiving, for there are many

developmentally delayed children who end up with very normal eventual

development who just took longer to get there.

During the nursing period, a great deal of neural development takes place

that is dependent on sulfate, but sulfation appears to be " limping along "

in autism. Normally, you see a progression through some sulfate-requring

processes. First, there is the sulfation of neurohormones that help the

brain develop sexual preferences that won't even be seen until puberty, but

which help regulate all those subtle differences between boys and

girls. There is the sulfation of the brain's lipids called

sulfatides. There is the sulfation of glycosaminoglycans that help a cell

figure out what sort of cell it needs to be, and that regulate processes

like neuronal migration and axon guidance. Certain cells called 02A cells

become highly sulfated and then differentiate into the brains " nurse "

cells: astrocytes, and into the myelinating oligodendrocytes.

Something I'm studying now happens next, and that is the sulfation of

perineuronal nets that takes place in coordination with myelination...and

cannot begin until AFTER birth when the brain begins to use its circuitry

in response to the environment. These nets are made up largely of

chondroitin sulfate, providing protection and modulation of signals that

take place mainly in GABAergic interneurons. This last step is a very late

event, but something apparently related to the cycling between dark and

light neurons. Dark neurons do not seem to appear until after weaning in

lab animals, but they seem to be exhausted neurons which can be restored

back to " light " or " prepared " neurons after a good night's sleep. It would

be interesting to know to what extent having casein peptides around would

regulate or change this last process. Epilepsy seems to have a lot to do

with these perineuronal nets and dark neurons not working quite right.

I know all that was complicated, but we really know so little about these

processes. Especially what we don't know is HOW the sulfation problems in

autism have altered these developmental programs, and whether that means

that extended nursing is necessary in some children.

My own daughter, who had sulfation problems that had more impact on motor

issues than on communication, was just bound and determined to keep nursing

until (I think) she was about three. Did her body know something the

doctors and researchers have not figured out yet? Maybe.

All milk, even yours, has casein. That is part of its nature and an

important part of its reason to be.

Cow's milk is quite different from human milk. The ratios of all sorts of

things are " off " . Casein levels are way too high in cow's milk compared to

human milk. Cow's milk produces inappropriate changes in motilin levels

and its own motilin level is inappropriate. Motilin is important to the

development of the cerebellum and to the regulation of digestion, and

probably has a lot of other secrets, too.

So, it is hard to give advice, but I've given you the best of the

information I know to influence your thinking. Personally, if I did it

over again, I think I would still let my daughter nurse until she felt the

job was complete. And this is from a mom whose child and herself have been

casein free for six years!

I have discussed these issues with the opiate excess researchers,

Shattock and Kalle Reichelt, by the way, so this is not any attempt to cast

doubt on the casein free diet. I suspect the casein free diet is the sort

of diet nature planned for mammals who are mature enough to to chew their

food. Other mammals don't nurse other species before or after weaning. Why

should we?

Debbie, it is just hard to know what TIMING issues are critical in children

who have experienced developmental delay. I wish I knew some marker that

could tell you when to stop, but I would not automatically assume a high

casein level in a child who is still nursing is doing him harm. What is

his interest in other food? My daughter was not very interested in other

food while she was still nursing...and barely touched baby food, epecially

toddler foods. She wanted mother's milk. Why?

Just realize that breastmilk is not just a food. The maturity of the

immune system and probably lots of systems are based on having a period of

time in which casein probably has a very important job to do. But at some

point, it is time to quit!

I hope this is helpful.

BrainHealth Center

University of Texas at Dallas

PS. How old is your son?

PPS. One other issue I'm mulling over is that the sulfate transporters

that are in the kidneys RETAIN sulfate, but these do not appear to be

working right in autism, for sulfate is being dumped into the urine. The

same set of molecules in the brain's kidney, called the choroid plexus,

work at removing sulfate from the brain. I'm not sure WHERE the sulfate is

coming from initially, but it does not seem to be via those transporters.

But there is a possibility that the same impairment of sulfate

transporters, if it takes place in the choroid plexus, might cause there to

be TOO much sulfate in the brain while there is NOT ENOUGH sulfate in the

rest of the body, or , in contrast, the regulation in the two areas might

be opposite. I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out how to test this

issue, and how casein might change things!

At 6/20/2001 -040002:54 PM, you wrote:

>Hi all,

>

>Bear with me please...I asked this question a few weeks ago. Hoping there

>might be some additional or new insight at this time. I can't seem to get to

>the bottom of this problem.

>

>My son had a urinary peptide test which showed a casomorphin level of over

>200 - the highest level my doctor's ever seen. My son has been casein-free

>for the past year and a half, with occasional infractions. However, he is

>still nursing. Since breastmilk contains casein, does this account for my

>son's high casomorphin level? Has nursing him been the wrong thing to do,

>when all along I though nursing was the very best thing to do since I can see

>he's having a lot of food allergy problems? And yes, I've been as casein-free

>as my son all along. Any input?

>

>Thanks,

>Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow...interesting. From all my reading from La Leche League material

years ago, and several books on breastfeeding BENEFITS, I was convinced

100% that nursing as long as the child dictated was the best approach.

Like said, almost as if the child knows what he needs.

Interestingly, (my autistic son....sorry I forgot the acronym

here, guys!) nursed the most exclusively, with no other foods, of all my

(four) children. I introduced solids very late with him (10-11 mos) and

it was only vegetables at that point. Well into his second year,

breastmilk was his primary food.

Beth R.

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 00:22:50 -0500 Owens writes:

> Debbie,

>

> I thought I'd take a shot at your question, though I realize what I

> say

> might be a bit controversial.

>

> I've been studying neurodevelopment and breastmilk for many years

> now, and

> I think it is quite logical to conclude that casein, and probably

> its

> peptides that we detect in urine, have a very important biological

> function

> in infants of mammals...we're the creatures on this planet who

> develop much

> more than the " reptilian " brain, and end up with a large and very

> talented

> cortex.

>

> My suspicions are that casein probably has some effects in

> regulating

> sulfation...perhaps regulating one thing that in animal studies has

> been

> found to change after weaning...and that is this: the percentage of

> the

> sulfate that is in the blood that will be allowed to stay in the

> cerebral

> spinal fluid.

>

> I read a study today showing that four times as much sulfate is

> allowed in

> the CSF in kittens as compared to cats, but in cats, only 1% of the

> blood

> levels of sulfate are permitted to be in the brain's fluid. I

> believe that

> is because what is happening with sulfate in the brain needs to be a

> very

> slow and steady process, and like baking a cake, you don't want to

> turn up

> the heat too far, or you " burn " something. I also suspect that this

>

> process of brain sulfation is a bit forgiving, for there are many

> developmentally delayed children who end up with very normal

> eventual

> development who just took longer to get there.

>

> During the nursing period, a great deal of neural development takes

> place

> that is dependent on sulfate, but sulfation appears to be " limping

> along "

> in autism. Normally, you see a progression through some

> sulfate-requring

> processes. First, there is the sulfation of neurohormones that help

> the

> brain develop sexual preferences that won't even be seen until

> puberty, but

> which help regulate all those subtle differences between boys and

> girls. There is the sulfation of the brain's lipids called

> sulfatides. There is the sulfation of glycosaminoglycans that help

> a cell

> figure out what sort of cell it needs to be, and that regulate

> processes

> like neuronal migration and axon guidance. Certain cells called 02A

> cells

> become highly sulfated and then differentiate into the brains

> " nurse "

> cells: astrocytes, and into the myelinating oligodendrocytes.

>

> Something I'm studying now happens next, and that is the sulfation

> of

> perineuronal nets that takes place in coordination with

> myelination...and

> cannot begin until AFTER birth when the brain begins to use its

> circuitry

> in response to the environment. These nets are made up largely of

> chondroitin sulfate, providing protection and modulation of signals

> that

> take place mainly in GABAergic interneurons. This last step is a

> very late

> event, but something apparently related to the cycling between dark

> and

> light neurons. Dark neurons do not seem to appear until after

> weaning in

> lab animals, but they seem to be exhausted neurons which can be

> restored

> back to " light " or " prepared " neurons after a good night's sleep. It

> would

> be interesting to know to what extent having casein peptides around

> would

> regulate or change this last process. Epilepsy seems to have a lot

> to do

> with these perineuronal nets and dark neurons not working quite

> right.

>

> I know all that was complicated, but we really know so little about

> these

> processes. Especially what we don't know is HOW the sulfation

> problems in

> autism have altered these developmental programs, and whether that

> means

> that extended nursing is necessary in some children.

>

> My own daughter, who had sulfation problems that had more impact on

> motor

> issues than on communication, was just bound and determined to keep

> nursing

> until (I think) she was about three. Did her body know something

> the

> doctors and researchers have not figured out yet? Maybe.

>

> All milk, even yours, has casein. That is part of its nature and an

>

> important part of its reason to be.

>

> Cow's milk is quite different from human milk. The ratios of all

> sorts of

> things are " off " . Casein levels are way too high in cow's milk

> compared to

> human milk. Cow's milk produces inappropriate changes in motilin

> levels

> and its own motilin level is inappropriate. Motilin is important to

> the

> development of the cerebellum and to the regulation of digestion,

> and

> probably has a lot of other secrets, too.

>

> So, it is hard to give advice, but I've given you the best of the

> information I know to influence your thinking. Personally, if I did

> it

> over again, I think I would still let my daughter nurse until she

> felt the

> job was complete. And this is from a mom whose child and herself

> have been

> casein free for six years!

>

> I have discussed these issues with the opiate excess researchers,

>

> Shattock and Kalle Reichelt, by the way, so this is not any attempt

> to cast

> doubt on the casein free diet. I suspect the casein free diet is

> the sort

> of diet nature planned for mammals who are mature enough to to chew

> their

> food. Other mammals don't nurse other species before or after

> weaning. Why

> should we?

>

> Debbie, it is just hard to know what TIMING issues are critical in

> children

> who have experienced developmental delay. I wish I knew some marker

> that

> could tell you when to stop, but I would not automatically assume a

> high

> casein level in a child who is still nursing is doing him harm.

> What is

> his interest in other food? My daughter was not very interested in

> other

> food while she was still nursing...and barely touched baby food,

> epecially

> toddler foods. She wanted mother's milk. Why?

>

> Just realize that breastmilk is not just a food. The maturity of

> the

> immune system and probably lots of systems are based on having a

> period of

> time in which casein probably has a very important job to do. But

> at some

> point, it is time to quit!

>

> I hope this is helpful.

>

>

> BrainHealth Center

> University of Texas at Dallas

>

> PS. How old is your son?

>

> PPS. One other issue I'm mulling over is that the sulfate

> transporters

> that are in the kidneys RETAIN sulfate, but these do not appear to

> be

> working right in autism, for sulfate is being dumped into the urine.

> The

> same set of molecules in the brain's kidney, called the choroid

> plexus,

> work at removing sulfate from the brain. I'm not sure WHERE the

> sulfate is

> coming from initially, but it does not seem to be via those

> transporters.

>

> But there is a possibility that the same impairment of sulfate

> transporters, if it takes place in the choroid plexus, might cause

> there to

> be TOO much sulfate in the brain while there is NOT ENOUGH sulfate

> in the

> rest of the body, or , in contrast, the regulation in the two areas

> might

> be opposite. I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out how to

> test this

> issue, and how casein might change things!

>

>

> At 6/20/2001 -040002:54 PM, you wrote:

> >Hi all,

> >

> >Bear with me please...I asked this question a few weeks ago. Hoping

> there

> >might be some additional or new insight at this time. I can't seem

> to get to

> >the bottom of this problem.

> >

> >My son had a urinary peptide test which showed a casomorphin level

> of over

> >200 - the highest level my doctor's ever seen. My son has been

> casein-free

> >for the past year and a half, with occasional infractions. However,

> he is

> >still nursing. Since breastmilk contains casein, does this account

> for my

> >son's high casomorphin level? Has nursing him been the wrong thing

> to do,

> >when all along I though nursing was the very best thing to do since

> I can see

> >he's having a lot of food allergy problems? And yes, I've been as

> casein-free

> >as my son all along. Any input?

> >

> >Thanks,

> >Debbie

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I just gave birth to my daughter 2 1/2 weeks ago and put her

directly on soy formula. I did try breast-feeding her but for some reason I

did not produce enough milk, also I got sores sooooooo bad that I had to be

put on an antibiotic. I thought soy did not have any casein in it??? Should I

have her on a different formula? Nutramigen and Alimentum both have small

amounts of casein in them but they are already predigested. She eats

constantly 4oz every 2-3 hours and messes all day long.

One other thing, do you know how young we can have our kids

checked out for any intolerances through Great Plains?? My son Nik has PDD

and has been GFCF for almost 1 year, his labs were through the roof, I am

having him re-tested at the end of July to see how and if the diet has

brought his levels down.

Thanks in advance for any help you can send my way. Trying to cover all my

bases so as to have a NT little angel girl.

Hugs, Terry.B ( mom to 5 1/2yo Nik PDD-NOS and 2 week old Alyssa so far NT )

[Guest guest]

,

Did you have trouble with your milk coming in with your son?

Was your daughter born naturally or did you need pitocin or caesarian?

The reason I ask is that it is much more typical for mothers of children

with autism to need pitocin than the average mother, and that may have to

do with a problem the mother is having in sulfation chemistry. CCK is a

hormone that needs to be sulfated in order for your body to make oxytocin,

which is the same thing as pitocin. You need oxytocin for your milk supply

to come in, as well. I had problem at three places: labor that wimped out,

a uterus that wouldn't clamp down, and milk that was SLOW coming in.

If these things happened to you, you might like to treat yourself to an

epsom salts bath!

I really wonder if anyone has conducted a comparison of these formulas for

issues of how fast or how well the nervous system and other systems

mature. Somehow, I think the industry people might be a little nervous

about making comparisons.

It is interesting to do a medline search on soy and casein and see how in

animal studies the response to both protein sources in many situations can

be quite different. I've put one abstract below just to make that

point. It was looking at a disease process with an aberrant gene that

causes eventual kidney failure, but the two formulations made BIG

differences in cellular response. But, a certain amount of casein really

IS what nature planned as a food during the period of time when the brain

is myelinating...

Congratulations on your little angel!

Unique Identifier

98191303

Authors

Ogborn MR. Bankovic-Calic N. Shoesmith C. Buist R. Peeling J.

Institution

Department of Pediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba,

Winnipeg, Canada.

Title

Soy protein modification of rat polycystic kidney disease.

Source

American Journal of Physiology. 274(3 Pt 2):F541-9, 1998 Mar.

Abstract

We undertook a study to determine whether soy protein feeding would

ameliorate renal injury in the Han:SPRD-cy rat model of polycystic kidney

disease (PKD). Male offspring of Han:SPRD-cy heterozygotes received

isocaloric diets based on 20% casein or 20% heat-treated soy protein at

weaning ad libitum for 8 wk. Soy-fed animals demonstrated lower serum

creatinine (66 vs. 125 mumol/l; P = 0.002), lower urinary ammonium

excretion (0.080 vs. 0.173 mmol/kg; P = 0.01), reduced renal cysts (0.98

vs. 4.92 ml/kg body wt, P < 0.0001), renal fibrosis (0.79 vs. 1.4 ml/kg; P

= 0.016), macrophage infiltration, renal tubular cell proliferation, and

apoptosis. Proton nuclear magnetic resonance (1H-NMR) studies of urine

demonstrated that soy diet was associated with increased losses of citric

acid cycle organic anions. 1H-NMR of perchloric acid-extracted tissue

found that levels of succinate were not depleted in soy-fed animals,

despite increased urinary losses. Soy-fed animals had marked elevation of

tissue betaine (P < 0.001), with reduced taurine and cholines, compared

with casein-fed animals (P < 0.001). Soy feeding dramatically reduces both

tubular and interstitial pathology in the Han:SPRD-cy rat model of PKD,

through mechanisms that remain to be determined.

At 6/21/2001 -040008:04 PM, you wrote:

>

>

> I just gave birth to my daughter 2 1/2 weeks ago and put her

>directly on soy formula. I did try breast-feeding her but for some reason I

>did not produce enough milk, also I got sores sooooooo bad that I had to be

>put on an antibiotic. I thought soy did not have any casein in it??? Should I

>have her on a different formula? Nutramigen and Alimentum both have small

>amounts of casein in them but they are already predigested. She eats

>constantly 4oz every 2-3 hours and messes all day long.

> One other thing, do you know how young we can have our kids

>checked out for any intolerances through Great Plains?? My son Nik has PDD

>and has been GFCF for almost 1 year, his labs were through the roof, I am

>having him re-tested at the end of July to see how and if the diet has

>brought his levels down.

>

>Thanks in advance for any help you can send my way. Trying to cover all my

>bases so as to have a NT little angel girl.

>

>Hugs, Terry.B ( mom to 5 1/2yo Nik PDD-NOS and 2 week old Alyssa so far NT )

>

>

>

>