ProGurt

[Guest guest]

I know that Elaine approved of ProGurt yogurt starter, but I have

suspicions about it and wonder if anyone can relate. About a month

ago, I switched from the Lyosan yogurt starter (which I've used for

years) to the ProGurt. It makes an incredibly different yogurt; very

creamy and sweet. I also had to go off of sulfasalazine at the same

time since I was experiencing allergic reaction. This last month my

Crohn's has been worsening; and it very well may just be the abscence

of sulfa, but I'm starting to also suspect the ProGurt, since if it is

sweet, then could some lactose not have been converted? My Lyosan

yogurt is extremely tart, but not the ProGurt. I discovered that the

minutest amount of lactose can send me into a flare, and now I am

really questioning this yogurt starter. Why would it make such a

sweet yogurt? I even doubled the amount suggested, did everything

right; used the same yogurt maker I've been using for 4 years, etc. I

am switching back and seeing if it makes a difference. I tolerate the

strains in the yogurt starter just fine, as I have been taking

lactobaccillus casei in a supplement for a while. Has anyone else

experienced regression caused by yogurt made by this starter?

[Guest guest]

I was using ProGurt for making yogurt from goat's milk and I had no problems

at all. I didn't find the yogurt to be sweet. It did taste tart but I've

heard goat's milk is more sour than cow's, so who knows if that's why. I

opted for ProGurt because I'm sensitive to cow dairy.

I'll be following this to see what other information arises, as I didn't

even know how ProGurt was made (someone said soy or peas or something?).

Crohn's 4/06 // SCD 11/06

almost tapered off of Entocort

>

> I know that Elaine approved of ProGurt yogurt starter, but I have

> suspicions about it and wonder if anyone can relate. About a month

> ago, I switched from the Lyosan yogurt starter (which I've used for

> years) to the ProGurt. It makes an incredibly different yogurt; very

> creamy and sweet. I also had to go off of sulfasalazine at the same

> time since I was experiencing allergic reaction. This last month my

> Crohn's has been worsening; and it very well may just be the abscence

> of sulfa, but I'm starting to also suspect the ProGurt, since if it is

> sweet, then could some lactose not have been converted? My Lyosan

> yogurt is extremely tart, but not the ProGurt. I discovered that the

> minutest amount of lactose can send me into a flare, and now I am

> really questioning this yogurt starter. Why would it make such a

> sweet yogurt? I even doubled the amount suggested, did everything

> right; used the same yogurt maker I've been using for 4 years, etc. I

> am switching back and seeing if it makes a difference. I tolerate the

> strains in the yogurt starter just fine, as I have been taking

> lactobaccillus casei in a supplement for a while. Has anyone else

> experienced regression caused by yogurt made by this starter?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Debora,

<< I know that Elaine approved of ProGurt yogurt starter, but I have

> suspicions about it and wonder if anyone can relate. About a month

> ago, I switched from the Lyosan yogurt starter (which I've used for

> years) to the ProGurt. It makes an incredibly different yogurt;

very > creamy and sweet. I also had to go off of sulfasalazine at

the same> time since I was experiencing allergic reaction. This last

month my> Crohn's has been worsening; and it very well may just be

the abscence> of sulfa, but I'm starting to also suspect the ProGurt,

since if it is> sweet, then could some lactose not have been

converted? >>

Progurt has a different taste profile than Lyosan yogurt.

There are a few possible reasons why you may be having problems:

1. Are you making the progurt correctly? It is essential that the

milk be cooled to *at least* room temperature before adding the

yogurt starter. The Lactobacillus casei in ProGurt has a lower

optimal temperature range than the other bacteria in the Lyosan

starter and if you add it to milk that is too warm it can kill the

bacteria and you can end up with residual lactose in the yogurt after

24 hrs.

2. Is your yogurt maker temperature going too high? If too high it

can kill the bacteria and you'll end up with lactose remaining after

24 hrs.

3. You may not tolerate L. casei's byproducts (that are in the

yogurt but wouldn't be in a supplement).

4. You may be experiencing withdrawl from the sulfa. I developed a

reaction to sulfasalazine last year and had to stop it. Although

stopped it improved most of my symptoms. Portions of the drugs were

helping my body in other ways. The drug was suppressing my bodies

response to arachidonic acid. (after my reaction and researching I

put two and two together) I have had to find other ways of getting

around it since the sulfa drug was no longer an option for me.

Organic meats, EPA, DHA etc...

Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, UC 23yrs

mom of and

[Guest guest]

> The Lactobacillus casei in ProGurt has a lower

> optimal temperature range than the other bacteria in the Lyosan

> starter and if you add it to milk that is too warm it can kill the

> bacteria and you can end up with residual lactose in the yogurt after

> 24 hrs.

My husband makes my yogurt, so it's all his fault. I just found

out from him that he's been cooling it to 110 and adding the starter

straight into that, then yoguing it. Although on the ProGurt website,

this is their instructions, to bring the milk between 105-110. But you

say room temperature, which I think reading was Elaine's preference.

So that's the first mistake we were making.

>

> 2. Is your yogurt maker temperature going too high? If too high it

> can kill the bacteria and you'll end up with lactose remaining after

> 24 hrs.

We just tested, and the Yogourmet yogurt temperature is going at 112

degrees. So this is the second. Obviously, the Lyosan has been fine

with the above two methods, but the ProGurt not. So this is why the

yogurt has been so sweet. It must have been full (or partly full of

lactose!)

>

> 3. You may not tolerate L. casei's byproducts (that are in the

> yogurt but wouldn't be in a supplement).

I have taken l.casei in supplement before, without noticeable problem.

So I think it's the lactose. I determined in January my

hypersensitivity to lactose, after starting LDN with lactose for a

month; my inflammation doubled. And that was one pill a day, one tiny

little pill, with a tiny amount of lactose. So I've been eating 2

bowls of it a day for a month now, with who knows how much lactose! I

just cancelled a long-awaited trip to Italy, and now it was probably

yogurt related!

>

> 4. You may be experiencing withdrawl from the sulfa.

I am already taking high dose fish oil, I was taking turmeric but have

switched to curcumin; I already eat all organic. Now that I know I've

probably been ingesting lactose, hopefully getting it out of my system

will result in turning around soon. I'm on the intro diet, and am

slowly upping my sulfa to see what I can tolerate, but after only 3

days of 2 pills a day, the last 3 nights I've had night sweats and a

rash has returned. Neither of these symptoms happened before LDN, so I

think it is the two together that doesn't work. I don't know if that's

LDN doing a good job at trying to balance my immune system making me

allergic, or what. Unfortunately, the 5 ASA's never did much good to

me, but I wasn't on SCD then either. What other things do you do to

substitute for sulfasalazine? Could you give me more information about

arachidonic acid? I would love to be off of this drug, but now that

I've caused a flare from either lactose, coming off sulfa, or both, I

may need its help to turn things around. I might drop the LDN and see

if I tolerate higher doses of sulfasalazine. And I've switched back to

Lyosan yogurt starter again. What a journey!

Is curcumin from turmeric considered legal?

Debora

[Guest guest]

Hi Debora,

<< Although on the ProGurt website,

> this is their instructions, to bring the milk between 105-110. But

you > say room temperature, which I think reading was Elaine's

preference.

> So that's the first mistake we were making.>>

With SCD we need all the bacteria to survive inoculation so the

temperature needs to be low enough for the bacteria to survive and

start digesting the lactose. Commercial and regular yogurt

production doesn't require all bacteria to survive inoculation. They

only ferment for a few hours and if they cooled the product lower it

would cost them much more (extra time means less production, more

electricity - less money in their pockets)

<< I have taken l.casei in supplement before, without noticeable

problem. > So I think it's the lactose. >>

The by-products that L. casei produce during the fermentation process

will not be present in a supplement. They are from the breakdown of

lactose and from the L. casei's life cycle. In a supplement all you

are getting is freeze dried L. casei. *But*, I think it is unlikely

that this is your problem. More likely it is from the " too high "

inoculation temperature and the high temp of your yog. maker.

<< What other things do you do to

> substitute for sulfasalazine? >>

Hmm, I think I mentioned them all. I am taking S. boulardii. It has

allowed me to take more yogurt (it really helped firm up bm's). I am

also working on building up my immune system - trying to eat as much

variety as possible.

<< Could you give me more information about

> arachidonic acid? >>

I would have a inflammatory response to arach. acid. When I stopped

sulfasalazine I had a massive inflammatory response to the arach.

acid in certain meats. Once I started treating steaks and roasts (see

below) and using only organic meats I was fine.

Try reading these (let me know if you have specific questions about

arach. acid)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachidonic_acid

http://www.opinions3.com/arachidonic_acid.htm (great tips here on how

to draw arach. acid out of steaks and roasts - works very well.

Before trying this steak would have me doubled over in pain)

http://www.doctordoc.com/arachid.html

<< Is curcumin from turmeric considered legal? >>

Looks fine to me.

Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, UC 23yrs

mom of and

[Guest guest]

> Commercial and regular yogurt

> production doesn't require all bacteria to survive inoculation. They

> only ferment for a few hours and if they cooled the product lower it

> would cost them much more (extra time means less production, more

> electricity - less money in their pockets)

I guess my question is; shouldn't the GI ProHealth's website (who gives

yogurt making instructions that claim SCD legality) be emphasizing that

the temperature should be below 110? I understand what you mean about

commercial yogurt making, but think that their website is mostly geared

towards those on SCD, though I admit I never read their instructions

and we just assumed we were doing things correctly. We are now

STRICTLY monitoring temperature, and bringing the milk to room

temperature completely before adding the culture. (I've also switched

back to the Lyosan)

> I would have a inflammatory response to arach. acid. When I stopped

> sulfasalazine I had a massive inflammatory response to the arach.

So this had been suppressing your response before? What were your

allergic reactions to this drug that made you stop?

I am already eating all grass-fed, organic meat, and have been the

whole time on SCD (coming up to 4 years) except when I eat out, which

is rare. I don't notice anything when I eat eggs (and I eat a lot of

them), but then again, I only buy range free. My biggest problem is

after an antibiotic shot (Rochephin) 16 months ago, I cannot get back

to how I was before that shot, which was symptomless and happily eating

everything on the diet. But I am occasionally sabatoging myself, at

least so far this year! Last year, I had to discover the hard way all

the things I could not tolerate that I had no issue with before.

(fruit, honey, peanuts ,cashews, etc.)

Thanks for your information on it; I am shocked at how doing something

just a little bit wrong (like 2-6 degree temperature variance) can

cause such HUGE consequences! But then I was shocked at how much my

body reacted to not even 1/32 tsp. of lactose a day! (Yet I seem OK

with the Lyosan acidopholus supplements, that claim skim milk

powder....) Elaine was right; fanatic adherence! My sulfasalazine

has 2 kinds of starch in it; I wonder how much that prevented me from

fully healing last year? If I can tolerate it again, I think I'll get

it compounded (if I can find something legal to act as Enteric coating,

since the regular causes terrible heart burn.)

Debora

[Guest guest]

Hi Debora,

<< I guess my question is; shouldn't the GI ProHealth's website (who

gives yogurt making instructions that claim SCD legality) be

emphasizing that > the temperature should be below 110? >>

GI ProHealth used the old (incorrect) directions that were on

pecanbread. They should be changing them shortly.

> So this had been suppressing your response before? What were your

> allergic reactions to this drug that made you stop?

It wasn't exactly an " allergic " reaction but was causing inflammation

in my body. I was hospitalized last year when I had a bad reaction

to antibiotics (elevated liver enzymes etc..). Stopping the

antibiotics helped a bit but stopping the sulfasalazine helped more.

The docs tried me out on 5-asa (same drug but without the siulfa

portion) and I started having the same bad reactions. I weaned off

all drugs by the fall of last year.

<< My biggest problem is > after an antibiotic shot (Rochephin) 16

months ago, I cannot get back > to how I was before that shot, >>

I had a very bad time last year after two back to back runs of

antibiotics. I am slowly but steadily improving. I believe the

combination of S. boulardii and SCD is what is doing it. The S.

boulardii is supposed to help repop ulate the gut with good

bacteria. I also keep it on hand in case I ever *have* to have

antibiotics again.

Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, Uc 23yrs

mom of and

[Guest guest]

>

> I had a very bad time last year after two back to back runs of

> antibiotics. I am slowly but steadily improving. I believe the

> combination of S. boulardii and SCD is what is doing it. The S.

> boulardii is supposed to help repop ulate the gut with good

> bacteria. I also keep it on hand in case I ever *have* to have

> antibiotics again.

>

I also have done s. boulardii all last year. How many do you take as

maintenance? I know in the CD studies, it proved to help people stay

in remission, but that hasnt been my case, though admittedly, most of

my problems in this last 16 months since the antibiotic have been due

to learning what I couldn't tolerate, since before the antibiotic, I

could do fruit, honey, peanut, cashews without incident. Afterwards,

all of these were out for quite some time, and I never did learn my

threshold without eventual regression. And now this year, I have had

almost 3 months out of 4 I was ingesting lactose. After the

antibiotic, did you have to go back on " intro " and reintroduce foods

again? I think part of my problem is angst at having to start over

again, and perhaps last January, 2006, if I had just started over

again, testing one food at a time, I would have progressed more

smoothly.

Do you also take an acidopholus supplement, or do you rely on the

yogurt alone for this? I am realizing how much fanatism is required,

and wonder about the starch in my sulfasalazine, and the occasional

alterations in yogurt temperature that caused some batches to have some

lactose left.

For the yogourmet starter, is 115 an acceptable range for the yogurt

maker? (Not for adding the starter, but what the machine brings it up

to.) We are experimenting with our crock pot, since the Yogourmet is

bringing the yogurt consistently to 115; should I not be eating this

yogurt? What is the acceptable temperature range for the Yogourmet

starter?

Debora

[Guest guest]

Hi Debora,

<< I also have done s. boulardii all last year. How many do you take

as> maintenance? >>

1 capsule (Kirkmans) at night.

<< After the antibiotic, did you have to go back on " intro " and

reintroduce foods > again? >>

Yes, I had to redo the intro twice times last year. Once after a few

days of no food in the hospital - just IV and steroids I hadn't

started the S. boulardii at that point. I started it after the

hospital stay. The other time for the intro was in the fall. Since

getting off all drugs I am no finally tolerating more variety. My

yeast problem also seems to be under control (she says in a whisper

<< I think part of my problem is angst at having to start over

> again, and perhaps last January, 2006, if I had just started over

> again, testing one food at a time, I would have progressed more

> smoothly. >>

I understand the angst of having to eat plain food after all the

great SCD goodies. I try to jazz it up with whatever I can

tolerate. Homemade salad dressing (honey dijon, cucumber dill, ranch

etc..) to put on plain cooked veggies, yogurt made from cream etc...

<< Do you also take an acidopholus supplement, or do you rely on the

> yogurt alone for this? >>

No acidophilus supplement. I rely on the yogurt. I make yogurt from

both the Lyosan starter and the ProGurt starter (to get both L. casei

and L. acidophilus)

<< For the yogourmet starter, is 115 an acceptable range for the

yogurt > maker? (Not for adding the starter, but what the machine

brings it up to.) We are experimenting with our crock pot, since

the Yogourmet is > bringing the yogurt consistently to 115; should I

not be eating this > yogurt? What is the acceptable temperature

range for the Yogourmet > starter?

>

>>

115 is a bit high. You probably should not eat this yogurt

especially since you are in a flare. In BTVC Elaine wrote to have

the range at 100-110°F. That is the range for making SCD yogurt.

Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, UC 23 yrs

mom of and