Guest guest Posted July 2, 2006 Report Share Posted July 2, 2006 Hi hi Carol, I hope I can help a little with your casein question. (I also hope some others out there might be able to add their knowledge when necessary.) My understanding of the situation is that casein is that is really only a problem for people with asperger's and autism (I suppose that would also mean ADD ADHD etc.) because the casein (and gluten and soy protein) penetrates the holes left in the gut caused by years of abuse from yeast-festations. Casein causes a morphene-like reaction in the brain, and for children of developmental age, this can have disasterous results for brain/learning development. It also sets off children on the autism spectrum as a 'fix' would to an addict. I think this is why there is so much discussion related to avoiding casein on this site. When people discuss not having problems with certain foods, it will mean different things for different people. For celiacs, my understanding is that being symptomatic relates mostly to digestive problems wheras for people on the autism spectrum, it relates as much to behavior as to poop issues. We are dealing with asperger's, so we look at behavior as well, and have found that being GFCF (and soy free) has made a lot of difference in the behavior of our boy, but that it hadn't solved any of our concerns involving his digestion, and curing his 'leaky gut'. Thats why we are also SCD. My understanding is that casein does not have an adverse effect on the GI tract, only the brain if it has entered the blood stream through a pourous gut. If that is the case, people with celiacs would not need to worry about casein in the same way that those on the autism spectrum do. My understanding is that the probiotics in cows yogurt only neutralize the lactose, not the casein, and so that if you can tolerate the cows yogurt, you can tolerate the cheese. The reason goat yogurt is recommended on this site is that goats milk naturally has no casein, and when the yogurt is properly made, the lactose is eliminated. So if you are OK with cow yogurt, there shouldn't be a problem with cheese. (I would be careful with ADD ADHD though. There will probably be behavior and attention span problems even if there are no poop issues.) Please correct me if I'm wrong. I can only speak from my perspective as a parent of a son with aspergers. We all have unique sensitivites and unique issues. Good Luck! -Allan. Successfully treating 8 yo son with asperger's for 4 years. GFCF SCD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2006 Report Share Posted July 4, 2006 Hi Sheila, Thanks for setting me straight. Here I thought I understood to some degree, but now it seems to be less than I thought! Could you help me with one question I now have? If both goats milk and cows milk have casein, and lactose, and making yogurt out of them neutralizes it, why are we all going to such lengths to find goats milk (if regular cows milk is fine.) ? If we could use cows milk, it would save a lot of time, money, and hassle. -Allan. Successfully treating son's aspergers SCD GFCf 4years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Okay, I'm wondering if someone can help me out. We can tolerate dripped cow's milk yogurt and we can tolerate goat cheese. Do you think we might also be able to tolerate cow's cheese then? I'm trying to figure out this casein thing. Making the yogurt changes the cow casein, correct? So is it possible that even though we tolerated the dripped cow yogurt, we may not tolerate the cow casein in cheese form? K Dayton, Ohio, USA SCD since June 2006, redid intro June 2007 Myself and 2 kids are SCD, hubby is finally and ever so slowly transitioning to it. Conditions we are treating successfully with SCD: Hashimoto's Thyroiditis (autoimmune), Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Rheumatoid Arthritis, leaky gut, IBS, ADD, ADHD, chronic diarrhea, yeast/candida, and salicylate intolerance. " All diseases begin in the gut " - Hypocrites (460-370 BC) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 > > Okay, I'm wondering if someone can help me out. We can tolerate > dripped cow's milk yogurt and we can tolerate goat cheese. Do you > think we might also be able to tolerate cow's cheese then? I'm trying > to figure out this casein thing. Making the yogurt changes the cow > casein, correct? So is it possible that even though we tolerated the > dripped cow yogurt, we may not tolerate the cow casein in cheese form? > I couldn't getthis all sorted out in my head but maybe upon closer study it will address your question: http://www.food-info.net/uk/protein/milk.htm Carol F. SCD 8 years, celiac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 I've heard that buffalo milk and yogurt does not contain cassein. I know that there is a brand of buffalo milk products sold at Whole Foods; however, I'm sure it contains lactose and is therefore illegal. Would a plain buffalo yogurt be a good alternative as a starter for those making their own yogurt and those who wish to avoid cassein? Could it be legal if given proper fermentation? April carolfrilegh wrote: > > Okay, I'm wondering if someone can help me out. We can tolerate > dripped cow's milk yogurt and we can tolerate goat cheese. Do you > think we might also be able to tolerate cow's cheese then? I'm trying > to figure out this casein thing. Making the yogurt changes the cow > casein, correct? So is it possible that even though we tolerated the > dripped cow yogurt, we may not tolerate the cow casein in cheese form? > I couldn't getthis all sorted out in my head but maybe upon closer study it will address your question: http://www.food-info.net/uk/protein/milk.htm Carol F. SCD 8 years, celiac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Hmm, I guess I'm not wording my question right. I'm trying to figure out if cow casein is an all or nothing thing in terms of tolerating it, or if different forms (ie cheese versus yogurt) make a difference in tolerating it. We can tolerate cow butter and cow yogurt, so does that mean we should also be able to tolerate cow cheese? K > > > > Okay, I'm wondering if someone can help me out. We can tolerate > > dripped cow's milk yogurt and we can tolerate goat cheese. Do you > > think we might also be able to tolerate cow's cheese then? I'm trying > > to figure out this casein thing. Making the yogurt changes the cow > > casein, correct? So is it possible that even though we tolerated the > > dripped cow yogurt, we may not tolerate the cow casein in cheese form? > > > I couldn't getthis all sorted out in my head but maybe upon closer study it will address > your question: > > http://www.food-info.net/uk/protein/milk.htm > > Carol F. > SCD 8 years, celiac > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Hi! I was just looking into this a couple of weeks ago.... I read it somewhere on BTVC, pecanbread.com or from this message board that casein breaks down from a 3 dimensional or 3-tiered molecular structure to a 2... and thus is not as likely to give most people problems. This was a quote from Elaine somewhere. I believe the cheese needs to be aged for a month with nothing else added to it. The cheese-aging process is a lot like the 24-hour yogurt in that the bacteria denaturize the casein and lactose over the 24 hour period. I believe that this is the same process with the month old cows milk. The casein is broken down into a simpler structure... the lactose disappears and you have a large chunk of mainly animal fat, protein, calcium, etc. I believe really aged cheese with nothing else added to it would be fine for you guys to try. Just be very aware of how your bodies react to it, if they do react to it. (I just went to a biomedical conference and heard a lecture on casein/gluten from one of the worlds leading researchers. I do not think he would encourage cheese, but that of course didnt come up in the lecture. I should have asked!) Hope that helps! - april 07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 http://www.pecanbread.com/new/yogurt1.html here it is: The Process of Making Yogurt Changes the Casein From Elaine Gottschall: When we make yogurt and the pH falls to about 4.5 rather than 7.1-2 (as in fluid milk), the proteins are denatured which means that because of the acidity, the proteins lose their 3 dimensional structure (sterochemistry) which would be the reason allergists worry about casein. In yogurt and in the natural cheeses, the casein is denatured into a two-dimensional structure which would be less likely to cause allergic reactions. If you respond badly to the cow cheese, you could also try hard, aged goat cheese. We have farms in Norway that make it... we can buy 3 month aged goat and cow cheese. Yum!! - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 > > Hmm, I guess I'm not wording my question right. I'm trying to figure > out if cow casein is an all or nothing thing in terms of tolerating > it, or if different forms (ie cheese versus yogurt) make a difference > in tolerating it. We can tolerate cow butter and cow yogurt, so does > that mean we should also be able to tolerate cow cheese? > > K > The molecules in goat's milk are smaller than those in cow's milk making it a lot easier to digest for many adults and most children. This also applies to cheese. http://www.pecanbread.com/new/yogurt1.html#goatcow Cheese tolerance varies. Some legal cheeses are only to be eaten occasionally. Since I have latex allergy I am allergic to a substance in cheddar but tolerate the legal blander, blonder cheese well ( e.g. jarlsberg, emmanthal, Swiss) Some cheese rinds have been soaked in chlorine and the cheese may be legal but the rind can trigger irritation. Some aged cheese contain amines that can trigger migraines. rsearch and experiment. Well tolerated cheese is a big asset to compensate for other foods that are restricted from SCD in my opinion and they are very satisfying because of the fat content. Carol F. SCD 8 years, celiac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2007 Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 > > Hi hi Carol, > I hope I can help a little with your casein question. (I also hope some > others out there > might be able to add their knowledge when necessary.) , You seem very knowledgeable on casein. I am anxious for feedback from Mimi as she has really researched this for several years. Thank you for taking the time to go into such clear detail on this, My experience is so many who transitioned to SCD from GFCF were absolutely terrified at the prospect of giving their children dairy. amy will come forward to attest they have been successful at integrating goat yogurt and certain cheeses. Personally I sometimes have the bloating, rash and nasal congestion associated with dairy allergy but not always. The immune system is a fickle devil. I am going to do the " fro-yo " test. (You freeze a little yogurt and if you still react then casein is the cause of a triggered irritability. Carol F. celiac, SCD 8 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hi April, > > I've heard that buffalo milk and yogurt does not contain cassein.>>> Sorry, but all animal milk contains casein, including buffalo. Different animals and different species of animals have varying kinds of casein (á-s2-casein, á-s1-casein). When you make yogurt from animal milk (cow, goat, buffalo, camel etc...) the casein becomes denatured - the shape changes to make it an easier to digest molecule. <<<<<I know that there is a brand of buffalo milk products sold at Whole Foods; however, I'm sure it contains lactose and is therefore illegal. Would a plain buffalo yogurt be a good alternative as a starter for those making their own yogurt and those who wish to avoid cassein? Could it be legal if given proper fermentation?>>>> You may be able to make 24 hour buffalo milk yogurt. You'd have to use some legal yogurt starter etc.. but it will still have (denatured) casein. Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, UC 23yrs PCOD 22yrs mom of and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hi > > Hmm, I guess I'm not wording my question right. I'm trying to figure> out if cow casein is an all or nothing thing in terms of tolerating> it, or if different forms (ie cheese versus yogurt) make a difference> in tolerating it. We can tolerate cow butter and cow yogurt, so does> that mean we should also be able to tolerate cow cheese? > > K>>>> If you tolerate cow yogurt and cow butter you should be able to tolerate cow cheese from a casein standpoint. If you want to try it it is best to start with the " Eat frely " cheeses as listed in the Appendix of BTVC about cheeses (cheddar, mild and medium; colby, havarti etc..) and to start with a small amount the first few times to make sure there is no else about cheese that bothers you. Some use different microbes, some have color added (annato) etc... Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, UC 23yrs PCOD 22yrs mom of and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Hi , -- In pecanbread , Allan West wrote: > > Hi hi Carol, > I hope I can help a little with your casein question. (I also hope some> others out there > might be able to add their knowledge when necessary.) My understanding> of the situation> is that casein is that is really only a problem for people with> asperger's and autism (I suppose > that would also mean ADD ADHD etc.)>>>> Some people also have a true allergy to casein that can result in difficulty breathing, hives, rashes, death... http://www.nutramed.com/children/kidsmilk.htm http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html#whatismilkallergy <<<< because the casein (and gluten and> soy protein) penetrates > the holes left in the gut caused by years of abuse from > yeast-festations. Casein causes a > morphene-like reaction in the brain, and for children of developmental> age, this can have > disasterous results for brain/learning development. It also sets off> children on the autism > spectrum as a 'fix' would to an addict. I think this is why there is so> much discussion > related to avoiding casein on this site. When people discuss not having> problems with > certain foods, it will mean different things for different people. For > celiacs, my > understanding is that being symptomatic relates mostly to digestive > problems wheras> for people on the autism spectrum, it relates as much to behavior as to> poop issues. > > We are dealing with asperger's, so we look at behavior as well, and have> found that> being GFCF (and soy free) has made a lot of difference in the behavior> of our boy, but > that it hadn't solved any of our concerns involving his digestion, and> curing his 'leaky gut'. > Thats why we are also SCD. My understanding is that casein does not> have an adverse> effect on the GI tract, only the brain if it has entered the blood> stream through a > pourous gut. If that is the case, people with celiacs would not need to> worry about > casein in the same way that those on the autism spectrum do. > <<<<<> My understanding is that the probiotics in cows yogurt only neutralize> the lactose,> not the casein, and so that if you can tolerate the cows yogurt, you can tolerate> the cheese.>>>> While making the yogurt for 24 hours does reduce all the lactose into the digestible glucose and galactose molecules, yogurt making does *neutralize* the casein by changing the shape of the casein molecule from the large difficult to digest 3 dimensional casein to the easy to digest 2 dimensional casein. <<<< The reason goat yogurt is recommended on this site is that > goats milk> naturally has no casein, and when the yogurt is properly made, the> lactose is> eliminated.>>>>> Goat milk does have casein but the casein molecule in goat's milk is much smaller than the cow milk's casein molecule - which makes it easier to digest and the reason that it is often recommended for those who can't drink cow milk. With SCD we don't drink any animal milks - we either eat legal cheeses or turn it into yogurt. Making goat milk into yogurt does reduce all lactose but it also makes the casein molecule 2 dimensional (in the same manner as the cow milk protein (casein). <<<<<So if you are OK with cow yogurt, there shouldn't be a > problem with> cheese. (I would be careful with ADD ADHD though. There will probably> be behavior> and attention span problems even if there are no poop issues.)>>>>> > > Please correct me if I'm wrong. I can only speak from my perspective as > a parent > of a son with aspergers. We all have unique sensitivites and unique issues. > Good Luck! > > -Allan. Successfully treating 8 yo son with asperger's for 4 years. > GFCF SCD > Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, UC 23yrs PCOD 22yrs mom of and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 > Dear Allan- I have a duaghter that is 4 and has autism. She has been GCFC (and soy free) for a year now. We have seen some improvements, but not a ton. That is why I have decided to try the SCD diet. Since you have a child on the spectrum, I thought you could give me some advice. Since you are GFCF, does that mean that you do not use the yogurt recipe, the dry curd cottage cheese, or the legal cheeses? I am trying to find some things that my daughter will eat, she is so picky. Any advice you have would help. Thank you. Adrienne > Hi hi Carol, > I hope I can help a little with your casein question. (I also hope some > others out there > might be able to add their knowledge when necessary.) My understanding > of the situation > is that casein is that is really only a problem for people with > asperger's and autism (I suppose > that would also mean ADD ADHD etc.) because the casein (and gluten and > soy protein) penetrates > the holes left in the gut caused by years of abuse from > yeast-festations. Casein causes a > morphene-like reaction in the brain, and for children of developmental > age, this can have > disasterous results for brain/learning development. It also sets off > children on the autism > spectrum as a 'fix' would to an addict. I think this is why there is so > much discussion > related to avoiding casein on this site. When people discuss not having > problems with > certain foods, it will mean different things for different people. For > celiacs, my > understanding is that being symptomatic relates mostly to digestive > problems wheras > for people on the autism spectrum, it relates as much to behavior as to > poop issues. > > We are dealing with asperger's, so we look at behavior as well, and have > found that > being GFCF (and soy free) has made a lot of difference in the behavior > of our boy, but > that it hadn't solved any of our concerns involving his digestion, and > curing his 'leaky gut'. > Thats why we are also SCD. My understanding is that casein does not > have an adverse > effect on the GI tract, only the brain if it has entered the blood > stream through a > pourous gut. If that is the case, people with celiacs would not need to > worry about > casein in the same way that those on the autism spectrum do. > > My understanding is that the probiotics in cows yogurt only neutralize > the lactose, > not the casein, and so that if you can tolerate the cows yogurt, you can tolerate > the cheese. The reason goat yogurt is recommended on this site is that > goats milk > naturally has no casein, and when the yogurt is properly made, the > lactose is > eliminated. So if you are OK with cow yogurt, there shouldn't be a > problem with > cheese. (I would be careful with ADD ADHD though. There will probably > be behavior > and attention span problems even if there are no poop issues.) > > Please correct me if I'm wrong. I can only speak from my perspective as > a parent > of a son with aspergers. We all have unique sensitivites and unique issues. > Good Luck! > > -Allan. Successfully treating 8 yo son with asperger's for 4 years. > GFCF SCD > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 > > Hi hi Carol, > I hope I can help a little with your casein question. (I also hope some > others out there > might be able to add their knowledge when necessary.) My experience is that the GFCF advocates have demonized dairy including the treated SCD dairy like yogurt and those aged cheeses allowed on SCD. Many, many who have passed through the Pecanbread portals after being GFCF were amazed to find out their children tolerated the dairy and improved faster with yogurt. Not everyone is successful with dairy. There are people who just can't touch dairy in any form but I'd like you to get some comments from parents who had the fear of all fears instilled about casein and now swear by goat yogurt instead of " at " it :-) Carol F. SCD 8 years, celiac, no meds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2007 Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 Thanks to everyone who has responded on this thread. It has helped me to understand the casein issue a little more. We have tried some legal cow cheeses. The verdict is still out on whether or not we are able to tolerate them. We seem to be doing fine on cow dripped yogurt and cow butter, but sometimes I see a reaction from the legal cow cheese and sometimes not. (The reaction seems to be gas in all of us and increased hyperness and regression in level of speech for my son) I'm guessing it is not a casein reaction, given our tolerance of the yogurt and butter, but perhaps something to do with the bacteria cultures in the cheese? The worst reaction came from medium cheddar, even though the mild cheddar from the same brand seems to be fine most of the time. I'm hopeful to keep legal cheese in our diet as it really gives us a ton more options, but I'm being watchful that it doesn't derail our success. I wish goat cheese was more available around here because we tolerate that with no question. :-( K Dayton, Ohio, USA SCD since June 2006, redid intro June 2007 Myself and 2 kids are SCD, hubby is finally and ever so slowly transitioning to it. Conditions we are treating successfully with SCD: Hashimoto's Thyroiditis (autoimmune), Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Rheumatoid Arthritis, leaky gut, IBS, ADD, ADHD, chronic diarrhea, yeast/candida, and salicylate intolerance. " All diseases begin in the gut " - Hypocrites (460-370 BC) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Yes all animal milk contains casein and so does human milk. Human breast milk is much easier to digest and breastfeeding can be done and recommended for Autistic children if changes are made in the mother while she is breastfeeding. Casein is something that cannot be taken out of milk like lactose I have had this argument with WIC a few times and sometimes they just don't get it. It is a protein in all milks that will be there. Goat milk is closest to breast milk in being able to be processed easily and digested although not recommended for infants. Don't know if that helps anyone. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Hi Allan, > > Hi Sheila, Thanks for setting me straight.>>> No problemo <<<< Here I thought I > understood to some degree, but now it seems to be less than > I thought! Could you help me with one question I now have? > If both goats milk and cows milk have casein, and lactose, > and making yogurt out of them neutralizes it, why are we all > going to such lengths to find goats milk (if regular cows milk > is fine.) ? If we could use cows milk, it would save a lot of > time, money, and hassle. -Allan. Successfully treating > son's aspergers SCD GFCf 4years.>>> Although both the casein in goat yogurt and cow yogurt is denatured the casein in goat yogurt is much smaller and is a lot easier to digest than the casein in cow yogurt. Sheila, SCD Feb. 2001, UC 23yrs, PCOD 22yrs mom of and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 what are you referring to by changes in the mother need to be made? Does that refer to possibly the need for her to be on the SCD diet? I may have missed some of the posts on Casein... wendy campbell wrote: Yes all animal milk contains casein and so does human milk. Human breast milk is much easier to digest and breastfeeding can be done and recommended for Autistic children if changes are made in the mother while she is breastfeeding. Casein is something that cannot be taken out of milk like lactose I have had this argument with WIC a few times and sometimes they just don't get it. It is a protein in all milks that will be there. Goat milk is closest to breast milk in being able to be processed easily and digested although not recommended for infants. Don't know if that helps anyone. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 what are you referring to by changes in the mother need to be made? Does that refer to possibly the need for her to be on the SCD diet? I may have missed some of the posts on Casein... wendy campbell wrote: Yes all animal milk contains casein and so does human milk. Human breast milk is much easier to digest and breastfeeding can be done and recommended for Autistic children if changes are made in the mother while she is breastfeeding. Casein is something that cannot be taken out of milk like lactose I have had this argument with WIC a few times and sometimes they just don't get it. It is a protein in all milks that will be there. Goat milk is closest to breast milk in being able to be processed easily and digested although not recommended for infants. Don't know if that helps anyone. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Yes, I would suggest if breastfeeding a child that is on the SCD diet that the mother be on it also. I did breastfeed my autistic son and having educated about breastfeeding the last 9 years I quickly learned about autism and diets as we have been on it the last 3 years. Every time I ate something that was not on the diet I sure knew it by his reactions. I think breastmilk can be very beneficial to children with autism but a mother must also be on a strict diet. My son is almost 5 and no longer breastfeeding but hey I did lose lots of weight being on the diet myself. lol __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Yes, I would suggest if breastfeeding a child that is on the SCD diet that the mother be on it also. I did breastfeed my autistic son and having educated about breastfeeding the last 9 years I quickly learned about autism and diets as we have been on it the last 3 years. Every time I ate something that was not on the diet I sure knew it by his reactions. I think breastmilk can be very beneficial to children with autism but a mother must also be on a strict diet. My son is almost 5 and no longer breastfeeding but hey I did lose lots of weight being on the diet myself. lol __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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