Re: Very frequent dosing schedule during the day

[Guest guest]

>

> After a one year hiatus, I recently restarted chelation, with a

> couple of three-day rounds of 12.5 mg DMSA + 12.5 mg ALA every two

> hours, plus supplements. From my previous experience, I learned that

> 3 hours is too infrequent for me, and I need 2 hours to keep side

> effects at a tolerable level.

>

> I was intrigued by a post I recently read by Andy Cutler (don't

> remember which forum) in which he said that the ideal frequency is

> every 15 minutes, but no one can do it, and that someone who can

> tolerate 10 mg of a chelator every three hours might tolerate 100 mg

> every hour.

>

Please send the post number to me privately. I need to check and see

if Andy actually said that (or people could ask him).

> It occurs to me that during the day I would have no problem with a

> one hour dosing schedule, although this would be hard to do at night;

> the two hour schedule is already quite intrusive into sleep.

>

> I am wondering whether it would make sense to try a one hour or 1.5

> hour schedule during the day, staying at two hours at night, in hopes

> of fewer side effects, as well as possibly an acceleration of

> chelation due to the net higher amount of chelators taken per day.

>

From your previous experience 2 h was ok in the day. You can stretch

that to 3 h at night to get a better sleep.

I don't see any need to shorten the interval further if you already

determined that every 2 h dosing was ok for you.

> I would think that I should probably not change the dose between day

> and night.

>

Right.

Metabolism slows a bit at night so you can lengthen the interval by as

much as an hour at night, no more.

> Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this or anything like

> it?

>

Please post again if you don't understand what I'm saying. I don't

want people to get false ideas about Andy's protocol.

J

> Thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> After a one year hiatus, I recently restarted chelation, with a

> couple of three-day rounds of 12.5 mg DMSA + 12.5 mg ALA every two

> hours, plus supplements. From my previous experience, I learned

that

> 3 hours is too infrequent for me, and I need 2 hours to keep side

> effects at a tolerable level.

>

> I was intrigued by a post I recently read by Andy Cutler (don't

> remember which forum) in which he said that the ideal frequency is

> every 15 minutes, but no one can do it, and that someone who can

> tolerate 10 mg of a chelator every three hours might tolerate 100

mg

> every hour.

>

> It occurs to me that during the day I would have no problem with a

> one hour dosing schedule, although this would be hard to do at

night;

> the two hour schedule is already quite intrusive into sleep.

>

> I am wondering whether it would make sense to try a one hour or 1.5

> hour schedule during the day, staying at two hours at night, in

hopes

> of fewer side effects

TK---- You can try this - taking chelators more frequently is ok as

long as you are consistent. It is going to be hard with the loss of

sleep so I would suggest not going beyond the three day rounds.

, as well as possibly an acceleration of

> chelation due to the net higher amount of chelators taken per day.

TK--- increased frequency can help but don't fool yourself into

thinking it is going to make [great] differences in acceleration

>

> I would think that I should probably not change the dose between

day

> and night.

TK-- correct, same dosage

>

> Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this or anything

like

> it?

TK--- increasing frequency helps some people, others it is too hard

on.

>

> Thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

Andy's old hourly dosing posts have intrigued a few people. It's very

hard to ignore his observation.

I asked Andy about this a few days ago (referring to the same message

about hourly dosing), and he responded, see here:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/message/229418

It's not in Onibasu yet, but when it is, I'll add the link to his

response to the wiki.

>

> After a one year hiatus, I recently restarted chelation, with a

> couple of three-day rounds of 12.5 mg DMSA + 12.5 mg ALA every two

> hours, plus supplements. From my previous experience, I learned that

> 3 hours is too infrequent for me, and I need 2 hours to keep side

> effects at a tolerable level.

>

> I was intrigued by a post I recently read by Andy Cutler (don't

> remember which forum) in which he said that the ideal frequency is

> every 15 minutes, but no one can do it, and that someone who can

> tolerate 10 mg of a chelator every three hours might tolerate 100 mg

> every hour.

>

> It occurs to me that during the day I would have no problem with a

> one hour dosing schedule, although this would be hard to do at night;

> the two hour schedule is already quite intrusive into sleep.

>

> I am wondering whether it would make sense to try a one hour or 1.5

> hour schedule during the day, staying at two hours at night, in hopes

> of fewer side effects, as well as possibly an acceleration of

> chelation due to the net higher amount of chelators taken per day.

>

> I would think that I should probably not change the dose between day

> and night.

>

> Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this or anything like

> it?

>

> Thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

Posted by: " beigetable " beigetable@... beigetable

Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:21 am (PDT)

>After a one year hiatus, I recently restarted chelation, with a

couple of three-day rounds of 12.5 mg DMSA + 12.5 mg ALA every two

hours, plus supplements. From my previous experience, I learned that

3 hours is too infrequent for me, and I need 2 hours to keep side

effects at a tolerable level.

I have that problem too, if I go too high in my dose. If you have difficulty

keeping this schedule up, then decrease your dose.

>I was intrigued by a post I recently read by Andy Cutler (don't

remember which forum)

AM

>in which he said that the ideal frequency is every 15 minutes,

No, ideally you want continuous administration. If it was possible to do it IV

or TD, then that would be best. Unfortunately, there are good reasons why you

would have difficulty getting ALA in TD.

>but no one can do it, and that someone who can tolerate 10 mg of a chelator

every three hours might tolerate 100 mg every hour.

Well, he did say that you don't want to do that. He suggested cutting your

dose in half. Since you would be dosing 4x as often, cutting in half would

double your total chelator intake.

>It occurs to me that during the day I would have no problem with a

one hour dosing schedule, although this would be hard to do at night;

the two hour schedule is already quite intrusive into sleep.

>I am wondering whether it would make sense to try a one hour or 1.5

hour schedule during the day, staying at two hours at night,

1.5 in the day would probably work fine with 2 hrs at night. I'm not sure

about 1 and 2.

>in hopes of fewer side effects, as well as possibly an acceleration of

chelation due to the net higher amount of chelators taken per day.

Notice that if you double the amount of chelator (at the same timing), you

double the side effects but only increase the amount of metal removed by some

30-40%. (It goes by something just less than the square root.)

>I would think that I should probably not change the dose between day

and night.

Probably not.

>Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this or anything like

it?

Well, that's my suggestion. if you want to try 1.5 and 2 at night, fine. Cut

the dose a bit though, and try for a while before going up. Personally, I'd

say it's kind of torturous. I'd probably just decrease my dose and stay at 3

hrs in the day, or maybe 2.5 or even 2, and 3 at night.

>Thanks.

Dave.

[Guest guest]

We needed every 2 hours when we first began ALA. DMSA was fine at 3 to

4 hours when we doing that only. After a few rounds of both we have

been fine at 3-4 hours with both. Some poeple do seem to need it more

frequently. And that's ok. As long as the dose and timing are steady.

For us it was the ala that produced the most problems and needed to be

taken more often.

You should not change the doses on a round. 2 hours during the day and

three at night makes sense. Your metabolism is slower when you sleep.

It's what allows us to go 4 hours at night. I dose us all at 3 hours

during the day unless we are using dmsa only. Then four hours.

>

> From my previous experience, I learned that

> 3 hours is too infrequent for me, and I need 2 hours to keep side

> effects at a tolerable level.

>

> I was intrigued by a post I recently read by Andy Cutler (don't

> remember which forum) in which he said that the ideal frequency is

> every 15 minutes,

> I would think that I should probably not change the dose between day

> and night.

>

> Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this or anything like

> it?

>

> Thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

Symptoms didn't go down with decreasing dose and in fact there were fewer side

effects with higher dose? And you needed DMPS at 3hours?

Wow. That's unusual.

Ok, well the DMPS issue would seem to indicate that you are very sensitive to

fluctuation in blood chelator levels, and so needed to dose very frequently -

that also seems to be the case with DMSA and ALA, you need to take them very

often. So, we know you are highly sensitive to fluctuations.

That leads me to wonder if perhaps at lower doses, it might be harder to get

uniform doses when you divide a cap. That might contribute to unintended dose

fluctuation, which we know you would be highly sensitive to.

I wonder if that might be it?

Dave.

----------

Posted by: " beigetable " beigetable@... beigetable

Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:27 am (PDT)

> Posted by: " beigetable " beigetable@... beigetable

> Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:21 am (PDT)

>

> After a one year hiatus, I recently restarted chelation, with a

> couple of three-day rounds of 12.5 mg DMSA + 12.5 mg ALA every two

> hours, plus supplements. From my previous experience, I learned that

> 3 hours is too infrequent for me, and I need 2 hours to keep side

> effects at a tolerable level.

> I have that problem too, if I go too high in my dose. If you have

> difficulty

> keeping this schedule up, then decrease your dose.

My experience is that my feeling better on a more frequent schedule

is not related to dosage. When I first did chelation with the Cutler

protocol, in 2005, I started with DMPS only at 8 hours, and found

that I needed a 3 hour dosing schedule, at any dose. When I added

ALA, I found 2 hours was much more tolerable than 3. Also, with both

DMPS alone and with DMPS + ALA, I paradoxically felt fewer side

effects at about 25 mg each than with lower doses of 5 or 10 mg, and

things seemed OK at 50 mg each when I tried that. I'm now using DMSA

plus ALA in the Kirkman capsules of 12.5 each; this seems to be a

reasonable dose for now. I don't know whether the paradoxical dosage

side effects apply to DMSA+ALA as they did to DMPS or DMPS+ALA.