Azariah.. an offload and update

[Guest guest]

Had a talk with DH this morning after having talked to our help ,

who looks after my invalid mum as well as the house. said

whenever we are away Azariah comes in and helps himself liberally to

all the facilities; stocks of food she just bought for our return

from holiday, etc..and goes into the bedrooms (including mine) and

shuts the door so she has no idea what he is doing in there.

said that my married kids don't have a key to the front door, or if

they do, it's only for emergency use, they all ring the doorbell so

why should he feel he can walk in and out without as much as a by your

leave? Dh and I decided it was time to have a talk with him about it.

The Talk is scheduled for 8.30 tonight. We are not looking forward to

it, because on past experience it will not be pleasant or rational.

He will probably start screaming and yelling and storm out before we

have got half a sentence out.

He has already said to DH on the phone: " Oh well I won't come to the

house at all if that's what you want... " in a miffed angry tone. DH

said that wasn't what we want, we just wanted to lay down some

perameters as to acceptable behaviour.

We feel that

1. It isn't respectful for a son to invade his parents' bedroom when

they are away (or not away) without express permission. I feel

violated and wonder what he has been rifling in MY drawers, as he was

in Yeshaya's.

The problem with (1) is that unfortunately Azariah *has* no respect

for his parents. That's 3/4 of the whole problem with him. So

appealing to his sense of respect is likely to fall on deaf ears.

He is more likely to understand that his beloved younger bro would not

approve of him rifling thru his stuff the minute he walks out the

door. He likes to think he has a kinship with Yeshaya, even though

Yeshaya is very wary of him, he isn't ready to cut him off completely,

but if he felt betrayed, he might.

2. Now he is earning good money he shouldn't use us as a free

convenience store. He tends to come round here and rifle my stocks of

tins of baked beans, bottles of coke, tissues etc, as it saves him

money. If I object I am called " mean " and " depriving " . Similarly I

am happy to feed him from my cooked food in the fridge but only if I

know about it. He goes there when I am out and helps himself to food

I have prepared for supper,and it is very disconcerting to find less

than I had prepared.

3. Altogether he should respect our privacy by not just using his key

and walking in without ringing the bell, especially now there is just

the two of us around, and we might be less than careful about modesty

as we have no more kids around to stay dressed in front of! DH has a

key to his mother's flat up the road, and even tho she's deaf as a

post, he wouldn't *dream* of just walking in to see how she is without

trying the doorbell first.

On and on, you can see the thread is all about respecting us. Trouble

is he doesn't, so this is going to be a VERY unpleasant and probably

totally unproductive talk. But we have to say it. Yeshaya told me

that during their last Brotherly Talk Azariah told him that " Mummy and

Daddy are scared of me, I'm the only one who stands up to them. "

I don't want to be scared of him, or for him to think that he has

that kind of power over us. Admittedly DH and I have shied away from

confrontation with him, as it is just so horrid. He rants, raves and

swears at us using every expletive in the book. As the relationship

between us is already at rock bottom and can hardly get any worse, I

don't see that we have anything to lose by saying what we think and

laying down a few groundrules.

Ruthie (not looking forward to 8.30 )

[Guest guest]

Good luck with tonight Ruthie - relationships with families can be soooo

challenging. But, you should be able to feel you can have privacy in

your own home if you want it.

Claire

Online quite a lot atm 'cos I'm waiting for e-mails re

builders/solicitors/suppliers etc in preparation for the building work -

so I tend to check fairly often and just *have* to read what comes in on

'coffee'

[Guest guest]

Oh, Ruthie, good luck - I'll keep my fingers crossed for you this evening.

Perhaps if he refuses to budge, you could offer a reciprocal arrangement,

then - he's free to use his doorkey to wander in and out of your house and

help himself to food/games/whatever he fancies at will, and you will feel

equally free to use your doorkey (I'm assuming you have one, since you pay

the rent!) to wander in and out of his flat on the same basis. I'm sure if

you put it like that, he won't find it so tempting! After all - what's

sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, isn't it?

And *how* can he call you mean when you finance his lifestyle, despite his

job?? I know, it's not rational: but perhaps you could also threaten a

phased withdrawal of the money now he's able to support himself? Only

difficulty is, you have to mean it, and that's easier said than done I know!

Anyway, best of luck!

Vicki Portman

http://www.plushpants.co.uk

Azariah.. an offload and update

> Had a talk with DH this morning after having talked to our help ,

> who looks after my invalid mum as well as the house. said

> whenever we are away Azariah comes in and helps himself liberally to

> all the facilities; stocks of food she just bought for our return

> from holiday, etc..and goes into the bedrooms (including mine) and

> shuts the door so she has no idea what he is doing in there.

> said that my married kids don't have a key to the front door, or if

> they do, it's only for emergency use, they all ring the doorbell so

> why should he feel he can walk in and out without as much as a by your

> leave? Dh and I decided it was time to have a talk with him about it.

>

> The Talk is scheduled for 8.30 tonight. We are not looking forward to

> it, because on past experience it will not be pleasant or rational.

> He will probably start screaming and yelling and storm out before we

> have got half a sentence out.

>

> He has already said to DH on the phone: " Oh well I won't come to the

> house at all if that's what you want... " in a miffed angry tone. DH

> said that wasn't what we want, we just wanted to lay down some

> perameters as to acceptable behaviour.

>

> We feel that

>

> 1. It isn't respectful for a son to invade his parents' bedroom when

> they are away (or not away) without express permission. I feel

> violated and wonder what he has been rifling in MY drawers, as he was

> in Yeshaya's.

>

> The problem with (1) is that unfortunately Azariah *has* no respect

> for his parents. That's 3/4 of the whole problem with him. So

> appealing to his sense of respect is likely to fall on deaf ears.

>

> He is more likely to understand that his beloved younger bro would not

> approve of him rifling thru his stuff the minute he walks out the

> door. He likes to think he has a kinship with Yeshaya, even though

> Yeshaya is very wary of him, he isn't ready to cut him off completely,

> but if he felt betrayed, he might.

>

> 2. Now he is earning good money he shouldn't use us as a free

> convenience store. He tends to come round here and rifle my stocks of

> tins of baked beans, bottles of coke, tissues etc, as it saves him

> money. If I object I am called " mean " and " depriving " . Similarly I

> am happy to feed him from my cooked food in the fridge but only if I

> know about it. He goes there when I am out and helps himself to food

> I have prepared for supper,and it is very disconcerting to find less

> than I had prepared.

>

> 3. Altogether he should respect our privacy by not just using his key

> and walking in without ringing the bell, especially now there is just

> the two of us around, and we might be less than careful about modesty

> as we have no more kids around to stay dressed in front of! DH has a

> key to his mother's flat up the road, and even tho she's deaf as a

> post, he wouldn't *dream* of just walking in to see how she is without

> trying the doorbell first.

>

> On and on, you can see the thread is all about respecting us. Trouble

> is he doesn't, so this is going to be a VERY unpleasant and probably

> totally unproductive talk. But we have to say it. Yeshaya told me

> that during their last Brotherly Talk Azariah told him that " Mummy and

> Daddy are scared of me, I'm the only one who stands up to them. "

>

> I don't want to be scared of him, or for him to think that he has

> that kind of power over us. Admittedly DH and I have shied away from

> confrontation with him, as it is just so horrid. He rants, raves and

> swears at us using every expletive in the book. As the relationship

> between us is already at rock bottom and can hardly get any worse, I

> don't see that we have anything to lose by saying what we think and

> laying down a few groundrules.

>

> Ruthie (not looking forward to 8.30 )

>

>

>

> *** NCT enquiry line - 0 ***

>

> Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ruthie I will be thinking of you this evening. I am sure that you

are right and he should respect your privacy etc However I am also

sure that he will not see it your way.

Just one thought - would a mediator help - a non-family member who

could perhaps calm the situation if it were to get out of hand?

Let us know how you get on

Trisha

SAHM to 3 boys

[Guest guest]

Ruthie I will be thinking of you this evening. I am sure that you

are right and he should respect your privacy etc However I am also

sure that he will not see it your way.

Just one thought - would a mediator help - a non-family member who

could perhaps calm the situation if it were to get out of hand?

Let us know how you get on

Trisha

SAHM to 3 boys

[Guest guest]

> Oh, Ruthie, good luck - I'll keep my fingers crossed for you this

evening.

> Perhaps if he refuses to budge, you could offer a reciprocal

arrangement,

> then - he's free to use his doorkey to wander in and out of your

house and

> help himself to food/games/whatever he fancies at will, and you will

feel

> equally free to use your doorkey (I'm assuming you have one, since

you pay

> the rent!) to wander in and out of his flat on the same basis. I'm

sure if

> you put it like that, he won't find it so tempting! After all -

what's

> sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, isn't it?

Absolutely: only he knows we wouldn't I'd hate to wander in and

out of his flat.

>

> And *how* can he call you mean when you finance his lifestyle,

despite his

> job?? I know, it's not rational: but perhaps you could also

threaten a

> phased withdrawal of the money now he's able to support himself?

Well we have to some extent. He pays for more and more, but if he had

to pay rent and car expenses on his (post grad) salary he'd be pretty

short. We don't pay for (most of) his food or his entertainment and

only bought him one suit recently, he's bought all the rest of his

clothes for a while. Rational isn't in Azariah's vocab. According to

him we owe HIM respect. he doesn't owe us diddlysquat. Go have a

rational discussion with someone on *that* premise.

Ruthie

Only

> difficulty is, you have to mean it, and that's easier said than done

I know!

>

> Anyway, best of luck!

>

> Vicki Portman

>

> http://www.plushpants.co.uk

> Azariah.. an offload and update

>

>

> > Had a talk with DH this morning after having talked to our help

,

> > who looks after my invalid mum as well as the house. said

> > whenever we are away Azariah comes in and helps himself liberally

to

> > all the facilities; stocks of food she just bought for our return

> > from holiday, etc..and goes into the bedrooms (including mine) and

> > shuts the door so she has no idea what he is doing in there.

> > said that my married kids don't have a key to the front door, or

if

> > they do, it's only for emergency use, they all ring the doorbell

so

> > why should he feel he can walk in and out without as much as a by

your

> > leave? Dh and I decided it was time to have a talk with him about

it.

> >

> > The Talk is scheduled for 8.30 tonight. We are not looking forward

to

> > it, because on past experience it will not be pleasant or

rational.

> > He will probably start screaming and yelling and storm out before

we

> > have got half a sentence out.

> >

> > He has already said to DH on the phone: " Oh well I won't come to

the

> > house at all if that's what you want... " in a miffed angry tone.

DH

> > said that wasn't what we want, we just wanted to lay down some

> > perameters as to acceptable behaviour.

> >

> > We feel that

> >

> > 1. It isn't respectful for a son to invade his parents' bedroom

when

> > they are away (or not away) without express permission. I feel

> > violated and wonder what he has been rifling in MY drawers, as he

was

> > in Yeshaya's.

> >

> > The problem with (1) is that unfortunately Azariah *has* no

respect

> > for his parents. That's 3/4 of the whole problem with him. So

> > appealing to his sense of respect is likely to fall on deaf ears.

> >

> > He is more likely to understand that his beloved younger bro would

not

> > approve of him rifling thru his stuff the minute he walks out the

> > door. He likes to think he has a kinship with Yeshaya, even

though

> > Yeshaya is very wary of him, he isn't ready to cut him off

completely,

> > but if he felt betrayed, he might.

> >

> > 2. Now he is earning good money he shouldn't use us as a free

> > convenience store. He tends to come round here and rifle my

stocks of

> > tins of baked beans, bottles of coke, tissues etc, as it saves him

> > money. If I object I am called " mean " and " depriving " . Similarly

I

> > am happy to feed him from my cooked food in the fridge but only if

I

> > know about it. He goes there when I am out and helps himself to

food

> > I have prepared for supper,and it is very disconcerting to find

less

> > than I had prepared.

> >

> > 3. Altogether he should respect our privacy by not just using his

key

> > and walking in without ringing the bell, especially now there is

just

> > the two of us around, and we might be less than careful about

modesty

> > as we have no more kids around to stay dressed in front of! DH

has a

> > key to his mother's flat up the road, and even tho she's deaf as a

> > post, he wouldn't *dream* of just walking in to see how she is

without

> > trying the doorbell first.

> >

> > On and on, you can see the thread is all about respecting us.

Trouble

> > is he doesn't, so this is going to be a VERY unpleasant and

probably

> > totally unproductive talk. But we have to say it. Yeshaya told

me

> > that during their last Brotherly Talk Azariah told him that " Mummy

and

> > Daddy are scared of me, I'm the only one who stands up to them. "

> >

> > I don't want to be scared of him, or for him to think that he has

> > that kind of power over us. Admittedly DH and I have shied away

from

> > confrontation with him, as it is just so horrid. He rants, raves

and

> > swears at us using every expletive in the book. As the

relationship

> > between us is already at rock bottom and can hardly get any worse,

I

> > don't see that we have anything to lose by saying what we think

and

> > laying down a few groundrules.

> >

> > Ruthie (not looking forward to 8.30 )

> >

> >

> >

> > *** NCT enquiry line - 0 ***

> >

> > Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

> >

> > Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> Oh, Ruthie, good luck - I'll keep my fingers crossed for you this

evening.

> Perhaps if he refuses to budge, you could offer a reciprocal

arrangement,

> then - he's free to use his doorkey to wander in and out of your

house and

> help himself to food/games/whatever he fancies at will, and you will

feel

> equally free to use your doorkey (I'm assuming you have one, since

you pay

> the rent!) to wander in and out of his flat on the same basis. I'm

sure if

> you put it like that, he won't find it so tempting! After all -

what's

> sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, isn't it?

Absolutely: only he knows we wouldn't I'd hate to wander in and

out of his flat.

>

> And *how* can he call you mean when you finance his lifestyle,

despite his

> job?? I know, it's not rational: but perhaps you could also

threaten a

> phased withdrawal of the money now he's able to support himself?

Well we have to some extent. He pays for more and more, but if he had

to pay rent and car expenses on his (post grad) salary he'd be pretty

short. We don't pay for (most of) his food or his entertainment and

only bought him one suit recently, he's bought all the rest of his

clothes for a while. Rational isn't in Azariah's vocab. According to

him we owe HIM respect. he doesn't owe us diddlysquat. Go have a

rational discussion with someone on *that* premise.

Ruthie

Only

> difficulty is, you have to mean it, and that's easier said than done

I know!

>

> Anyway, best of luck!

>

> Vicki Portman

>

> http://www.plushpants.co.uk

> Azariah.. an offload and update

>

>

> > Had a talk with DH this morning after having talked to our help

,

> > who looks after my invalid mum as well as the house. said

> > whenever we are away Azariah comes in and helps himself liberally

to

> > all the facilities; stocks of food she just bought for our return

> > from holiday, etc..and goes into the bedrooms (including mine) and

> > shuts the door so she has no idea what he is doing in there.

> > said that my married kids don't have a key to the front door, or

if

> > they do, it's only for emergency use, they all ring the doorbell

so

> > why should he feel he can walk in and out without as much as a by

your

> > leave? Dh and I decided it was time to have a talk with him about

it.

> >

> > The Talk is scheduled for 8.30 tonight. We are not looking forward

to

> > it, because on past experience it will not be pleasant or

rational.

> > He will probably start screaming and yelling and storm out before

we

> > have got half a sentence out.

> >

> > He has already said to DH on the phone: " Oh well I won't come to

the

> > house at all if that's what you want... " in a miffed angry tone.

DH

> > said that wasn't what we want, we just wanted to lay down some

> > perameters as to acceptable behaviour.

> >

> > We feel that

> >

> > 1. It isn't respectful for a son to invade his parents' bedroom

when

> > they are away (or not away) without express permission. I feel

> > violated and wonder what he has been rifling in MY drawers, as he

was

> > in Yeshaya's.

> >

> > The problem with (1) is that unfortunately Azariah *has* no

respect

> > for his parents. That's 3/4 of the whole problem with him. So

> > appealing to his sense of respect is likely to fall on deaf ears.

> >

> > He is more likely to understand that his beloved younger bro would

not

> > approve of him rifling thru his stuff the minute he walks out the

> > door. He likes to think he has a kinship with Yeshaya, even

though

> > Yeshaya is very wary of him, he isn't ready to cut him off

completely,

> > but if he felt betrayed, he might.

> >

> > 2. Now he is earning good money he shouldn't use us as a free

> > convenience store. He tends to come round here and rifle my

stocks of

> > tins of baked beans, bottles of coke, tissues etc, as it saves him

> > money. If I object I am called " mean " and " depriving " . Similarly

I

> > am happy to feed him from my cooked food in the fridge but only if

I

> > know about it. He goes there when I am out and helps himself to

food

> > I have prepared for supper,and it is very disconcerting to find

less

> > than I had prepared.

> >

> > 3. Altogether he should respect our privacy by not just using his

key

> > and walking in without ringing the bell, especially now there is

just

> > the two of us around, and we might be less than careful about

modesty

> > as we have no more kids around to stay dressed in front of! DH

has a

> > key to his mother's flat up the road, and even tho she's deaf as a

> > post, he wouldn't *dream* of just walking in to see how she is

without

> > trying the doorbell first.

> >

> > On and on, you can see the thread is all about respecting us.

Trouble

> > is he doesn't, so this is going to be a VERY unpleasant and

probably

> > totally unproductive talk. But we have to say it. Yeshaya told

me

> > that during their last Brotherly Talk Azariah told him that " Mummy

and

> > Daddy are scared of me, I'm the only one who stands up to them. "

> >

> > I don't want to be scared of him, or for him to think that he has

> > that kind of power over us. Admittedly DH and I have shied away

from

> > confrontation with him, as it is just so horrid. He rants, raves

and

> > swears at us using every expletive in the book. As the

relationship

> > between us is already at rock bottom and can hardly get any worse,

I

> > don't see that we have anything to lose by saying what we think

and

> > laying down a few groundrules.

> >

> > Ruthie (not looking forward to 8.30 )

> >

> >

> >

> > *** NCT enquiry line - 0 ***

> >

> > Live chat http://www.yahoogroups.com/chat/nct-coffee

> >

> > Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> Ruthie I will be thinking of you this evening. I am sure that you

> are right and he should respect your privacy etc However I am also

> sure that he will not see it your way.

>

> Just one thought - would a mediator help - a non-family member who

> could perhaps calm the situation if it were to get out of hand?

>

> Let us know how you get on

>

> Trisha

> SAHM to 3 boys

We have often thought of that, but knowing him, he wouldn't even COME

to such a discussion. I can't count the times we have offered to have

a dialogue (1) with his counsellor present (2) with ANY counsellor

present (3) with ANY third party of his choosing present. He doesn't

want to. His reason : " Why should I? It's not ME who has the problem,

it's YOU. " (ie, us) What DH wants to do instead is to tape the

conversation, with his permission. Somehow if you know you are being

taped, you don't act quite as stupidly. At least that's the theory.

Ruthie

[Guest guest]

Ruthie, good for you, I am sure you are doing the right thing and

good luck tonight - I shall be thinking of you.

My mother gets a bit offended we don't go and raid her freezer when

she's away - and she lives nearly 100 miles away - and they are

coming up tonight and I'll be surprised if they use the bell before

their key - but that is not the point!!!! As you say, it is all about

respect - and even if *he* doesn't get the message, it will make you

feel better.

--

jennifer@...

Vaudin

[Guest guest]

Good luck Ruthie.. I hope it goes well.. (btw I have not been inside my mothers

bedroom since I was about 6 without her strict permission )

Lonnie Phoebe & Eloisa's mama

& expecting a Christmas delivery...

My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what you

start.

So far today, I have finished 2 bags of chips and a Chocolate cake.

I feel better already.