Re: Adrenal question --

[Guest guest]

Is there any definite pattern to the side affects.? Like if

they come at hour 3 after your last dose I would try dosing

at hour 3 rather than hour 4.. I found this when I first

started and taking it sooner totaly took the side affects

away//

nanci

>

> Hi ,

>

> I think you said that you take prednisolone but do not stress dose

> when chelating? (Sorry, my memory isn't too good these days.)

>

> I am on day 2 of DMSA chelation at 6mg, 4-hourly. I'm starting to

> feel some adrenal strain. My heart has raced a little at times, I

> feel sluggish, irritable, tearful, and I am craving sugar. (I keep

> wanting to break over a week's achievement of not eating it, I am

> trying very hard to kick the habit.)

>

> You said not to chelate at a dose that strains the adrenals, but

you

> can't really go lower than 6mg. I'm going to have to take extra

> medrol and I hope that's going to be OK as part of a chelation

regime.

>

> The frustrating thing is that before I ever touched HC, I never got

> these reactions from chelation even at large doses (though I know

it

> was damaging my adrenals long-term). Now on these meds I can't even

> take 6mg doses without feeling it.

>

> What do you think?

>

> Thanks,

> .

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Is there any definite pattern to the side affects.? Like if

> they come at hour 3 after your last dose I would try dosing

> at hour 3 rather than hour 4.. I found this when I first

> started and taking it sooner totaly took the side affects

> away//

> nanci

I'm not sure . . .it's difficult to say. The sugar cravings were the

symptoms I was really wondering about. They seem to have been adrenal-

related for me. I don't think DMSA does anything that is likely to

cause them.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that I am taking 10mg of medrol

a day, which is the equivalent of 50mg HC. So I'm not sure how likely

it is that the root problem is that I'm not taking enough of my med.

Like I said, I could handle this before I took the med at all, though I

know my cortisol was low (saliva test confirmed that).

Not sure what to do here. I'm thinking I will take 1mg more merdol with

each of my 3 doses, but I'm always worried about " coming down " from

stress doses. if they are too high, it can make things hard. These meds

are both a blessing and a curse.

[Guest guest]

Sugar cravings can be yeast related or low blood sugar ie

hypoglycemia - How about chromium.. I had been on 200 mg

daily for some time. Then I realized that some of my

symptoms were definitely like hypoglycemia.. shakiness,

energy lows, I upped my dose to about 1,000 mcg a day

and I saw improvements within a couple of days..

Somebody recently said that apple cider vinegar helps with

yeast problems .. I have not researched it to know if that is

true. SOmething.. either apple cider vinegar or chelation made

my yeast alot better. Will keep you posted..

After the chromium addition ,definitely I no longer feel so

hungry and my energy is alot more even throughout the day..

nanci

-- In frequent-dose-chelation , " Lou "

wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Is there any definite pattern to the side affects.? Like

if

> > they come at hour 3 after your last dose I would try

dosing

> > at hour 3 rather than hour 4.. I found this when I first

> > started and taking it sooner totaly took the side affects

> > away//

> > nanci

>

>

> I'm not sure . . .it's difficult to say. The sugar cravings were

the

> symptoms I was really wondering about. They seem to have been

adrenal-

> related for me. I don't think DMSA does anything that is likely to

> cause them.

>

> I forgot to mention in my previous post that I am taking 10mg of

medrol

> a day, which is the equivalent of 50mg HC. So I'm not sure how

likely

> it is that the root problem is that I'm not taking enough of my

med.

> Like I said, I could handle this before I took the med at all,

though I

> know my cortisol was low (saliva test confirmed that).

>

> Not sure what to do here. I'm thinking I will take 1mg more merdol

with

> each of my 3 doses, but I'm always worried about " coming down " from

> stress doses. if they are too high, it can make things hard. These

meds

> are both a blessing and a curse.

>

[Guest guest]

Good detective work there, and yes chromium is an intelligent choice

for controlling blood sugar. I believe vanadyl sulfate can also help.

I tried taking both of those at one point, for a few months..

I follow the Paleolithic diet, which excluses sugar and grains, so it

wouldn't be something I ate. And the suggestion of hypoglycemia is a

good one; I guess all I can say there is that I know what that feels

like, especially since it recently was a big problem while my HC dose

was still too low. It didn't feel like this, and the sugar cravings

also persisted throughout the morning despite my usual filling

breakfast (chicken cooked in butter and tamari, with raw veg --

unusual, but works for me).

I gave in to the sugar cravings because they were driving me crazy,

but I need to stop ASAP. When I feel not-so-bad, this isn't a

problem. When I feel lousy it's too easy to give in. I reckon I've

gained about 100 pounds since I got sick in 2004, and much of it has

been just this past year. I feel terrible about it, I so much want to

get back to a normal life.

Anyway . . . still not sure what to do, but I've increased my merdol

dose for now.

[Guest guest]

Hi -

Just to chime in on the weight / sugar cravings issue. I've had similar

issues - sugar cravings and have gained around 65 pounds since 1987

(actually gained that much in a couple of years back then) when other

symptoms started (after replacement amalgams placed).

After seeing in Seattle, I started taking biotin,

niacinamide, and pantothenic acid. Then I did a hydrocortisone taper, which

I am just finishing. Since starting the 3 supplements and doing the taper,

I've lost around 7 pounds and have absolutely no sugar cravings. A friend

who is " pre-diabetic " has had similar results. I take 25 mg biotin, 1500 mg

niacinamide, and 2500 pantothenic acid per day (all in divided doses with 3

meals per day). I was never particularly hungry during the taper, even at 80

mg HC. I have taken chromium off and on over the years, but it never seemed

to help much.

Dana

_____

From: frequent-dose-chelation

[mailto:frequent-dose-chelation ] On Behalf Of Lou

[. . .]

I gave in to the sugar cravings because they were driving me crazy,

but I need to stop ASAP. When I feel not-so-bad, this isn't a

problem. When I feel lousy it's too easy to give in. I reckon I've

gained about 100 pounds since I got sick in 2004, and much of it has

been just this past year. I feel terrible about it, I so much want to

get back to a normal life.

[Guest guest]

Dana, can I ask what the rationale was for taking those 3 vitamins in

those amounts? What was your diagnosis?

Also, how long were you on HC before tapering off?

Thanks,

.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi ,

>

> I think you said that you take prednisolone but do not stress dose

> when chelating? (Sorry, my memory isn't too good these days.)

>

I take Cortef. I don't stress dose for chelation. I do stress dose

for infections and emotional events (family problems).

> I am on day 2 of DMSA chelation at 6mg, 4-hourly. I'm starting to

> feel some adrenal strain.

>My heart has raced a little at times, I

> feel sluggish, irritable, tearful, and I am craving sugar.

These symptoms will be alleviated by extra HC, but they may be an

indication that you need diet changes, more supplements (Na, K, Mg,

chromium picolinate with meals, and others)

(I keep

> wanting to break over a week's achievement of not eating it, I am

> trying very hard to kick the habit.)

>

> You said not to chelate at a dose that strains the adrenals, but you

> can't really go lower than 6mg. I'm going to have to take extra

> medrol and I hope that's going to be OK as part of a chelation regime.

>

It would be ok for this round. I think that what you need to do next

is figure out how to support your body for chelation before trying

another round.

Because of the poor adrenal function it will take some study and some

talking things over with group members to determine diet, supplement

and possibly medication strategies to give your body more support for

chelation.

Lets start with diet and supplements. Have you read the adrenal

section of Amalgam Illness? Andy discussed diet and supplements there

and also lists possible adrenal supplements in the supplement section.

I can't list all of the things today. If you tell us what you have

tried so far (diet and supplements) perhaps we can fill in what you

are missing.

Frequent meals and snacks with protein at every snack is important and

will make a big difference. Chromium picolinate with every meal will

help. Sodium needs to be replaced, sometimes in fairly large

quantities. (I make an electrolyte drink every day with lemon,

sucrolose, salt, baking soda, MgSO4, inositol).

One thing that I thought of when reading one of your other posts was

to optimize thyroid hormone supplementation. Ask for blood tests of

free T3 and free T4. They should be in the top 1/4 to 1/3 of the

normal range. My guess is that your free T3 might be low, and

sustained release T3 (compounded) might help. It did make a

noticeable difference for me.

Another thing I thought of is to ask for a full hormone panel. It may

be that supplementation with progesterone and testosterone would help

(2 others that have helped me). Dr. Lee's books are helpful to

understand that whole thing (his books can be ordered from Andy at

www.noamalgam.com/buythebooks.html) DHEA was also tested to be low

for me and I recently got a script for that.

If you have any time, think about relaxation methods that work for you

- walking, listening to music, prayer, meditation - anything that

works for you, and stress reduction strategies.

> The frustrating thing is that before I ever touched HC, I never got

> these reactions from chelation even at large doses (though I know it

> was damaging my adrenals long-term). Now on these meds I can't even

> take 6mg doses without feeling it.

>

> What do you think?

>

Before we got HC our adrenals were struggling but were at least doing

something. With HC supplementation they are resting. That means that

we need to supply other things that they used to help us with - like

testosterone, and sodium, to name a few.

I'm sorry that I haven't read all of your recent posts yet, and can't

remember some of the things that you have said. Study relevant

sections of Amalgam Illness, tell us what you have been doing with

your diet and supplements, other medications, and we will continue to

give suggestions for adding things for support. I can't keep up with

reading posts these days, so send me your post numbers in private

email and I will answer).

When we get your body properly supported you could try chelation again

at 6 mg DMSA, or possibly 6 mg ALA.

J

> Thanks,

> .

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for your response. If you look at my post titled " My hair

test, " in it I list all of the supplements I'm taking. I am also on

the Paleolithic diet, which excludes grain and sugar. I have protein,

veg and a healthy fat with every meal (though unfortunately today I

gave in to the sugar cravings -- when I do that I still have healthy

meals though).

I did a trial of chromium GTF and vanadyl sulphate for about 2 months

but didn't notice any difference. I take sea salt but a recent blood

test showed that my sodium was at the top of the range (I did a trial

of Florinef for aldosterone anyway but it made me feel awful). I

perhaps need more magnesium; I was considering epsom salts but after

having done further research, I'd rather stick with mag citrate.

Thyroid -- funny thing there is when I started Armour with 2 doses of

1/8 grain, I had two days of feeling VERY much better. After that, I

slumped back into greyness and have been there ever since, even

though I've been increasing 1/4 grain per week and am now at 2 grains

(as per instructions on the thyroid/adrenals list). With my poor

absorption it's possible that I just need to keep going for a while

yet. As I've said in my history in the hair test post, Dr. Peatfield

got me a urine thyroid metabolites test which showed poor T4-T3

conversion. I have a TSH of 2.3 and blood levels of T4 and T3 are

within " normal " range (blood test from GP).

I have an appointment with an endocrinologist tomorrow and I will be

assertive about getting as many hormone tests as I can. Hopefully

that base will then be covered. I did a 2-month trial of progesterone

cream a while back and didn't notice any difference one way or the

other.

Oh yes, and my saliva cortisol test also measured DHEA, which was

low. I tried supplementing this but my first dose made me feel awful.

I'm learning that my body is reactive to just about everything unless

I have very small doses first; so I will see what the endo says, and

then probably supplement either with his blessing or on my own.

Relaxation would be good. I'm under stress right now because I have

to teach 9 classes this autumn even though I'm part-time (lots of

shared classes) and I'm stressing about getting all the prep done.

Trying to do a bit every day. I had to accept a bigger teaching load

than I wanted for the autumn term in order to keep my job, because it

was a temporary contract which was renewed. It isn't easy going back

into things like this after 5 years out with a baby. I taught the 2

last terms of last year so at least it's not like diving in

completely cold, but I'm still lacking confidence.

I used to do tai chi -- I loved it -- but since I've been ill it's

become a chore like everything else, and I cannot enjoy it. I want to

go to a local club and re-learn it when I feel better, and also

meditate again. It's hard to describe but there's this inner pain

that says " no " to the quiet, reflective time I used to love.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks very much for your help .

too.

[Guest guest]

>

> Thyroid -- funny thing there is when I started Armour with 2 doses

of

> 1/8 grain, I had two days of feeling VERY much better. After that, I

> slumped back into greyness and have been there ever since, even

> though I've been increasing 1/4 grain per week and am now at 2

grains

> (as per instructions on the thyroid/adrenals list).

---------

Hmmm, just a thought but maybe you'd be a good candidate for

's protocal. It's just taking t3 sustained release. Perhaps

the reason you felt better initially on Armour was that you were

getting some much needed t3 but when you continued to get t4 it

cancelled out the positive effect of t3?

Val

[Guest guest]

Perhaps

> the reason you felt better initially on Armour was that you were

> getting some much needed t3 but when you continued to get t4 it

> cancelled out the positive effect of t3?

>

> Val

>

Val, can you tell me how T4 would cancel out T3? Thanks.

[Guest guest]

>

> Val, can you tell me how T4 would cancel out T3? Thanks.

>

------------

I am not an expert at all about this but I was reading about

's syndrome on it's webpage...

" Some patients and physicians hear about the need for T3 and wonder

if they can gain the benefits of T3 by using Armour instead of

Synthroid because it contains T3. But Armour thyroid doesn't contain

just T3. It contains a lot of T4 as well! T4 is the very hormone

we're trying to reduce in WTS in order to deplete RT3 levels. "

When you said you got some improvement on Armour and then it went

away it made me think that the T3 you were getting from it helped

but then the t4 cancelled the effect. Just a theory - I'm not a

doctor.

I would suggest reading the wilson's syndrome website -- its quite

fascinating.

[Guest guest]

I talk on a thyroid/adrenals list and they said to have RT3 tested.

Unfortunately I don't have a supportive doctor who will do this. Armour

is the best thyroid med, if it works for you, because it contains more

than T4 and T3 -- it also has T1, T2, and everything the thyroid needs

really.

Someone else has now told me that it's common to feel good the first

few days on Armour, then not while you are ramping up the dose, if you

have adrenal fatigue. I don't understand how that works though.

I do have some Cytomel I can switch to if I need to. I guess I'll see

how I go for now, give the Armour a chance to get into my system.

Many thanks,

.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi ,

>

> Thanks for your response. If you look at my post titled " My hair

> test, "

I copied this to my hard drive because I don't have much time to look

at it right now. gives a much more complete analysis of

hair tests than I do. The only thing I'm not sure that you are aware

of is that meeting a counting rule means that mineral transport is

deranged and that can only be caused by mercury (according to Andy,

the only other possibility is pregnancy and lactation). Your response

to chelators confirms toxicity. There may be a long list of other

problems that the mercury has caused, but mercury is the underlying

factor that needs to be resolved.

> in it I list all of the supplements I'm taking.

I couldn't find that part. I'll look again later.

I am also on

> the Paleolithic diet, which excludes grain and sugar.

Good. That will help you gut to heal.

I have protein,

> veg and a healthy fat with every meal (though unfortunately today I

> gave in to the sugar cravings -- when I do that I still have healthy

> meals though).

>

I know. I also have trouble with the sugar cravings.

> I did a trial of chromium GTF and vanadyl sulphate for about 2 months

> but didn't notice any difference. I take sea salt but a recent blood

> test showed that my sodium was at the top of the range (I did a trial

> of Florinef for aldosterone anyway but it made me feel awful).

It is possible for sodium and potassium to change according to various

factors. You can tell if you need them by taste. Taste some salt,

and get some salt replacer (KCl) and taste each once in a while to see

if you need more of either. I make an electrolyte drink every day

containing Na, K, inositol, Mg. My needs for Na change with time.

I

> perhaps need more magnesium; I was considering epsom salts but after

> having done further research, I'd rather stick with mag citrate.

>

I used to use Mg citrate, and still do at times, but I have found it

convenient to add MgSO4 (epsom salts, pharmaceutical grade) to my

electrolyte drink.

> Thyroid -- funny thing there is when I started Armour with 2 doses of

> 1/8 grain, I had two days of feeling VERY much better. After that, I

> slumped back into greyness and have been there ever since, even

> though I've been increasing 1/4 grain per week and am now at 2 grains

> (as per instructions on the thyroid/adrenals list). With my poor

> absorption it's possible that I just need to keep going for a while

> yet. As I've said in my history in the hair test post, Dr. Peatfield

> got me a urine thyroid metabolites test which showed poor T4-T3

> conversion.

It may be that you need more T3 and less T4.

I have a TSH of 2.3 and blood levels of T4 and T3 are

> within " normal " range (blood test from GP).

>

Free T3 needs to be at least in the top 1/4 of the normal range. Some

doctors will let their patients go above the normal range (especially

since you already have been shown to have poor conversion, and it is

possible that the T3 isn't getting where it is supposed to be).

Perhaps Dr. Peatfield would test Free T4 and free T3 and let you try

some sustained release T3.

In the US, T3 is used to treat depression. And, like I said, some

doctors will take the free T3 level above the normal range.

> I have an appointment with an endocrinologist tomorrow

Endocrinologists don't understand endocrinology, unfortunately.

and I will be

> assertive about getting as many hormone tests as I can.

The testing might help, but the endocrinologist might not. (Sorry if

I'm sounding negative, my endo missed all 3 of my endocrinology

problems, and I have developed an attitude from listening to the poor

treatment that many Addison's patients receive). I sincerely hope

that this endocrinologist is exceptional.

Hopefully

> that base will then be covered. I did a 2-month trial of progesterone

> cream a while back and didn't notice any difference one way or the

> other.

>

It still might help to test blood levels. Sometimes we don't notice a

difference from one thing because there are so many things that need

to be optimized.

> Oh yes, and my saliva cortisol test also measured DHEA, which was

> low. I tried supplementing this but my first dose made me feel awful.

There may be a way to increase gradually to an optimal dose.

> I'm learning that my body is reactive to just about everything

There may be a need for liver healing.

unless

> I have very small doses first; so I will see what the endo says, and

> then probably supplement either with his blessing or on my own.

>

> Relaxation would be good. I'm under stress right now because I have

> to teach 9 classes this autumn even though I'm part-time (lots of

> shared classes) and I'm stressing about getting all the prep done.

> Trying to do a bit every day. I had to accept a bigger teaching load

> than I wanted for the autumn term in order to keep my job, because it

> was a temporary contract which was renewed. It isn't easy going back

> into things like this after 5 years out with a baby. I taught the 2

> last terms of last year so at least it's not like diving in

> completely cold, but I'm still lacking confidence.

>

I understand how stressful all of this must be, plus the stress of

illness. My heart goes out to you.

> I used to do tai chi -- I loved it -- but since I've been ill it's

> become a chore like everything else, and I cannot enjoy it. I want to

> go to a local club and re-learn it when I feel better, and also

> meditate again. It's hard to describe but there's this inner pain

> that says " no " to the quiet, reflective time I used to love.

>

I find it difficult to control my thoughts when I meditate. I used to

find that walking was a way to burn off adrenaline, and get my

thoughts to settle down, but pain in my legs prevents me from doing

that now. I am swimming now. I use music from my iPod to relax.

J

> Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks very much for your help .

>

> too.

>

[Guest guest]

There's a lot of food for thought here, . Thanks for your post.

I've discovered how useless endocrinologists are. I at least expected

him to do a cursory hormone panel, but I had to push and push to get

any hormones tested at all. They don't normally do that apparently.

So what DO they do, I wonder. At any rate, he eventually agreed to

test the hormones I requested, but I'm in a spot of bother right now

because he also insisted on doing an ACTH stim test and my cortisol

was very low (because I'm on medrol, which is not bioidentical). He

now wants to give me a prescription for HC (unfortunately of no use

to me) and wants to do more tests. I'm trying to work out how to

extract myself from this for now because all I wanted to know was

what my estrogen, testosterone, etc are. Could be amusing, though I

was more nervous than anything else earlier today when I thought

about it.

As I told you, I increased my medrol dose, which is now at 12mg a

day. I will be interested to see how this affects my reaction to

chelation.

I am also getting a private test done for RT3, which should reveal

whether or not I need to change to a T3-only med. I have some waiting

if need be. It will require getting free's tested again too. My GP's

surgery has at least agreed to take my bloods for me. Dr. Peatfield

could just as well have ordered the tests from the same lab but I'd

still have to pay, and to be honest I know how to calculate the

results myself. I'm getting good, LOL.

Thanks again and I will give your post a good long digest. At the

moment I've got all sorts of things cluttering my brain because I'm

trying to prep for school, I've got doctors and meds and chelation

and things . . . and if anything, I'm more brain-fogged than ever. I

wish honest to goodness that I could put the teaching on hold until

I'm more " myself, " but life doesn't always work like that.

.