OT reply about Wicca, Religion, and my daughter from earlier discussion

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone who tried to clarify the Wicca thing for me. I

wasn't trying to spark a religious debate, and I think it's been

wonderful how everyone has handled this discussion. This is an

INTERNAL struggle for me, and what I I'm writing here is NOT AT ALL

to stomp on anyone's toes or discount their personal beliefs.

Concerning Jesus: *this was copied directly from the website you gave

me* " yet we do not believe in messiahs, and I know of no witch who

worships him as the 'only son of god'. " Doesn't this statement in

itself pretty much defy christianity? Catholicism was corrupt right

from the beginning (that's historical fact), and all protestant

religion stemmed from Catholicism, therefore I completely question

the whole basis of Christianity. I know very many holidays we

celebrate as " christian' were not at all bible based, but were

actually Pagan holidays converted to Christian. This is what I've

learned through studying history. Christians were pretty barbaric

people back when the religion began, and religion, to me, is very

hypocritical and repressive.

I don't know how a Christian can accept wicca, as it says very

strongly in the bible this is wrong. Christians must denounce any

and all other gods. If you accept Christianity and all of it's

teachings, then you must accept Wicca as against God. I don't see

how you can have it both ways. Same for homosexuality…I don't think

homosexuals are bad people, but very clearly it says that too.

Now, I don't necessarily accept Christianity either, but every pore

of my body is instilled with guilt for it. If I followed the bible

in any form, it says I must go to church, must accept Jesus as my

savior, and believe all of these things are bad that I don't

believe...but I think it would be very wrong for me to join any

religion I couldn't fully commit to. However, my God is the

Christian ideal of God, so, by rights, the very basis of what I

believe to be God would be false if I don't accept Christianity and

the bible. I've also not had the luxury of exploring other

religions, because around here, you're either Christian or your

atheist.

There are some very wonderful Catholics, Protestants, Muslims,

Buddhists, etc. I can't fathom that My God would put all of these

people out simply because they didn't belong to the right `club'. I

wish I had something to wholeheartedly believe in and be guided by,

but I'm not going to join something to do it halfway. It's all or

nothing. I'm not so easily swayed into accepting everything just

because a group of people (religion) says it's so. I want something

to really, really believe…and that's where it becomes so personal to

me. My God is one god, maker and ruler, who's just and caring to

all, who knows more than we possibly ever could about our own

behavior, who does not believe in eternal damnation (he would never

be so cruel), I don't believe he intentionally causes things to

happen or not to happen. Mostly, he gives me something to believe in

that's greater than myself. I think everyone needs to believe in

that.

Now, Concerning my daughter…She is so obsessed with the magic,

voodoo, mystical spiritualness that I'm very concerned she will go

down a dangerous path of spiritualism. I don't think she has an

inkling of what any of it is about except for what she sees on tv and

reads in the Harry Potter books. If she proclaimed to be a witch

she'd be putting herself out there for more ridicule than she already

gets.

And yes, I too, played with the ouija and read books on Witchcraft

(nothing like wicca though), but I was 16 and I was all about

rebellion. I did get a healthy dose of belief in a real spiritual

world out of it though, when my lights would literally go on and off

with no provocation…I DO BELIEVE in that. I do NOT believe my

daughter is talking to ghosts in her room though.

Have I explained it better now? Where I'm coming from on all of this?

[Guest guest]

I understand where you are coming from. I was raised in a " christian "

cult. God was there to punish not love. When I got older I completley

rejected all religion and God totally. Then I got " saved " after my

husband and I had some marital problems, and we got sucked in to, if

not a cult, a group of mind-controlling, hypocritical, and eventually

cruel people. To make a long story short. I feel so much of what you

are saying. It is so hard to turn from beliefs that are engrained

into you, but at the same time I feel like I know they were false. I

refuse to believe that God is like that. I have been stuggling with

this for a long time, and I been doing all kinds of reading and

research, and I am still at a loss. The philosopy I have come closest

to agreeing with is Deist. They believe in God because He is apparent

all around us. Like nature and the beauty of animal and people and

space. They belive that this proves a God exsist, but they do not

believe in any holy teacher or scripture.

Anyway...I can be long winded, sorry.

Is it possible that your daughter is ADHD or Asperger's? She sounds

like she has a good self-esteem, but she just doesn't " get " why

people do not want to be around her, or the fact that sometimes you

have to conform if you want friends. (especially at her age). Kids in

their preteens and early teens have to be like everyone else...it's

like a sickness.

Just a thought, Take care,

Libby

> Thanks to everyone who tried to clarify the Wicca thing for me. I

> wasn't trying to spark a religious debate, and I think it's been

> wonderful how everyone has handled this discussion. This is an

> INTERNAL struggle for me, and what I I'm writing here is NOT AT

ALL

> to stomp on anyone's toes or discount their personal beliefs.

>

> Concerning Jesus: *this was copied directly from the website you

gave

> me* " yet we do not believe in messiahs, and I know of no witch who

> worships him as the 'only son of god'. " Doesn't this statement in

> itself pretty much defy christianity? Catholicism was corrupt

right

> from the beginning (that's historical fact), and all protestant

> religion stemmed from Catholicism, therefore I completely question

> the whole basis of Christianity. I know very many holidays we

> celebrate as " christian' were not at all bible based, but were

> actually Pagan holidays converted to Christian. This is what I've

> learned through studying history. Christians were pretty barbaric

> people back when the religion began, and religion, to me, is very

> hypocritical and repressive.

>

> I don't know how a Christian can accept wicca, as it says very

> strongly in the bible this is wrong. Christians must denounce any

> and all other gods. If you accept Christianity and all of it's

> teachings, then you must accept Wicca as against God. I don't see

> how you can have it both ways. Same for homosexuality…I don't

think

> homosexuals are bad people, but very clearly it says that too.

>

> Now, I don't necessarily accept Christianity either, but every pore

> of my body is instilled with guilt for it. If I followed the bible

> in any form, it says I must go to church, must accept Jesus as my

> savior, and believe all of these things are bad that I don't

> believe...but I think it would be very wrong for me to join any

> religion I couldn't fully commit to. However, my God is the

> Christian ideal of God, so, by rights, the very basis of what I

> believe to be God would be false if I don't accept Christianity and

> the bible. I've also not had the luxury of exploring other

> religions, because around here, you're either Christian or your

> atheist.

>

> There are some very wonderful Catholics, Protestants, Muslims,

> Buddhists, etc. I can't fathom that My God would put all of these

> people out simply because they didn't belong to the right `club'.

I

> wish I had something to wholeheartedly believe in and be guided by,

> but I'm not going to join something to do it halfway. It's all or

> nothing. I'm not so easily swayed into accepting everything just

> because a group of people (religion) says it's so. I want

something

> to really, really believe…and that's where it becomes so personal

to

> me. My God is one god, maker and ruler, who's just and caring to

> all, who knows more than we possibly ever could about our own

> behavior, who does not believe in eternal damnation (he would never

> be so cruel), I don't believe he intentionally causes things to

> happen or not to happen. Mostly, he gives me something to believe

in

> that's greater than myself. I think everyone needs to believe in

> that.

>

> Now, Concerning my daughter…She is so obsessed with the magic,

> voodoo, mystical spiritualness that I'm very concerned she will go

> down a dangerous path of spiritualism. I don't think she has an

> inkling of what any of it is about except for what she sees on tv

and

> reads in the Harry Potter books. If she proclaimed to be a witch

> she'd be putting herself out there for more ridicule than she

already

> gets.

>

> And yes, I too, played with the ouija and read books on Witchcraft

> (nothing like wicca though), but I was 16 and I was all about

> rebellion. I did get a healthy dose of belief in a real spiritual

> world out of it though, when my lights would literally go on and

off

> with no provocation…I DO BELIEVE in that. I do NOT believe my

> daughter is talking to ghosts in her room though.

>

> Have I explained it better now? Where I'm coming from on all of

this?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Theresa,

I think the most important thing is that you are thinking about these

things. I certainly understand what you have said about struggling with

religion. I could go on about the specifics about your observations about

wicca and Christianity, but it isn't important (email me off list if you

want to discuss it). Except I wanted to say that the website you quoted is

*one* witch's point of view. Personally, I think that the God and Goddess

is the same thing as your God. As such, my religion is compatible with

yours, even if you do not think yours is compatible with mine.

ANYWAY, the important thing here (not to be lost in spiritual musings) is

your daughter. Certainly as her mother you will know if she is heading down

a wrong path. As has been said on this list before, it is a difficult age.

If you think she is developing dark fascinations, I can understand your

concern. Please keep us posted!

(SAHM in GA)

MSN elizabethloht@...

n 33, mo, no formal dx

Phoebe, 11 wks

btw: I just want you to know that I was in no way offended or anything by

your original post, but every so often I like for people to know that there

are wiccans out there who are just normal people too.

OT reply about Wicca, Religion, and my daughter

from earlier discussion

Thanks to everyone who tried to clarify the Wicca thing for me. I

wasn't trying to spark a religious debate, and I think it's been

wonderful how everyone has handled this discussion. This is an

INTERNAL struggle for me, and what I I'm writing here is NOT AT ALL

to stomp on anyone's toes or discount their personal beliefs.

Concerning Jesus: *this was copied directly from the website you gave

me* " yet we do not believe in messiahs, and I know of no witch who

worships him as the 'only son of god'. " Doesn't this statement in

itself pretty much defy christianity? Catholicism was corrupt right

from the beginning (that's historical fact), and all protestant

religion stemmed from Catholicism, therefore I completely question

the whole basis of Christianity. I know very many holidays we

celebrate as " christian' were not at all bible based, but were

actually Pagan holidays converted to Christian. This is what I've

learned through studying history. Christians were pretty barbaric

people back when the religion began, and religion, to me, is very

hypocritical and repressive.

I don't know how a Christian can accept wicca, as it says very

strongly in the bible this is wrong. Christians must denounce any

and all other gods. If you accept Christianity and all of it's

teachings, then you must accept Wicca as against God. I don't see

how you can have it both ways. Same for homosexuality.I don't think

homosexuals are bad people, but very clearly it says that too.

Now, I don't necessarily accept Christianity either, but every pore

of my body is instilled with guilt for it. If I followed the bible

in any form, it says I must go to church, must accept Jesus as my

savior, and believe all of these things are bad that I don't

believe...but I think it would be very wrong for me to join any

religion I couldn't fully commit to. However, my God is the

Christian ideal of God, so, by rights, the very basis of what I

believe to be God would be false if I don't accept Christianity and

the bible. I've also not had the luxury of exploring other

religions, because around here, you're either Christian or your

atheist.

There are some very wonderful Catholics, Protestants, Muslims,

Buddhists, etc. I can't fathom that My God would put all of these

people out simply because they didn't belong to the right `club'. I

wish I had something to wholeheartedly believe in and be guided by,

but I'm not going to join something to do it halfway. It's all or

nothing. I'm not so easily swayed into accepting everything just

because a group of people (religion) says it's so. I want something

to really, really believe.and that's where it becomes so personal to

me. My God is one god, maker and ruler, who's just and caring to

all, who knows more than we possibly ever could about our own

behavior, who does not believe in eternal damnation (he would never

be so cruel), I don't believe he intentionally causes things to

happen or not to happen. Mostly, he gives me something to believe in

that's greater than myself. I think everyone needs to believe in

that.

Now, Concerning my daughter.She is so obsessed with the magic,

voodoo, mystical spiritualness that I'm very concerned she will go

down a dangerous path of spiritualism. I don't think she has an

inkling of what any of it is about except for what she sees on tv and

reads in the Harry Potter books. If she proclaimed to be a witch

she'd be putting herself out there for more ridicule than she already

gets.

And yes, I too, played with the ouija and read books on Witchcraft

(nothing like wicca though), but I was 16 and I was all about

rebellion. I did get a healthy dose of belief in a real spiritual

world out of it though, when my lights would literally go on and off

with no provocation.I DO BELIEVE in that. I do NOT believe my

daughter is talking to ghosts in her room though.

Have I explained it better now? Where I'm coming from on all of this?

[Guest guest]

OH I'm glad you brought up the asperger's question, I meant to

address that earlier but forgot.

I've looked a lot at the information available about aspergers and

true, she does fit into some of it, but most of it not.

What supports a diagnosis of aspergers:

She's clumsy as all get out (motor dyspraxia), she is awkward in

social situations..we can be talking about bowling for instance, and

she'll butt in with something like " we saw chickens hatch today " .

It's so grossly obvious when she has friends over. How they can hold

a conversation about something and sound so mature and she just

can't. This makes it hard to reason with her too.

What does not support asperger's:

She totally gets humor, cynisicm. She doesn't speak in literal

terms. She understands the rules of social behavior, but choses to

not follow them. She doesn't struggle with pragmatics. She doesn't

have superior intelligence and stuggles with about every aspect of

school...not necessarily because she can't do it, but because she

doesn't want to do it. She's very very clingy and wants to kiss and

hug at some of the most inopportune times. Doesnt' seem to have any

sort of sensory sensitivites.

She likes to talk about boys, YuGiOh, and other cartoons and says

she's 'in love' with the characters (another thing that makes her get

made fun of). She's recently become pretty engrossed in ancient

egypt and can pretty much tell you anything about it (another

mystical theme). She never seemed to fixate like this when she was

younger, so I don't know if I can say that's an asperger's trait or

not. Like I said in an earlier post, she never seemed to excel at

anything but lately her poetry really is showing signs of promise.

She IS supposed to be evaluated by Zach's developmental pediatrician

in November by recommendation of her therapist. Maybe that will shed

more light on the whole subject. I'm not feeling so great about this

developmental ped lately though...she so quickly dismissed Zach as

having autism (well gave me the wait and see), and that's why we're

going to KU med center for a different opinion. Another thing,

Zach's therapist told me recently that the dev ped isn't coming

through on diagnosing ANY of the kids in the program with ANYTHING.

I don't know what's up with that.

I wish someone who knew something about Aspergers could actually meet

her.. maybe I should cancel her appt with the dev ped and send her

directly to KU with Zach.

[Guest guest]

>

> What does not support asperger's:

> She totally gets humor, cynisicm. She doesn't speak in literal

> terms.

AS can have a great sense of humor. Enrique is very funny and I don't think

he has ever failed to understand a joke.

Putter's psychologist who sees LOTS of AS kids says that in her opinion, HFA

don't get humor and are literal, and AS kids are very good at humor.

Salli

[Guest guest]

> What does not support asperger's:

She totally gets humor, cynisicm. She doesn't speak in literal terms. <

one of the huge myths of ASD is that they have no understanding of humor. that's

clearly not true, if you read any of the funny stuff our kids say, it's just

that they get it on a different level.

> She understands the rules of social behavior, but choses to not follow them. <

are you sure?

> She doesn't struggle with pragmatics. She doesn't have superior intelligence

and stuggles with about every aspect of school...not necessarily because she

can't do it, but because she doesn't want to do it. <

again, are you sure? you don't need to be a genius to have aspergers. she could

have some other learning disability that you are unaware of.

> She's very very clingy and wants to kiss and hug at some of the most

inopportune times. Doesnt' seem to have any

sort of sensory sensitivites. <

actually, this sounds like she craves sensory input. it also negates your

previous statement about her understanding social behavior

> She likes to talk about boys, YuGiOh, and other cartoons and says she's 'in

love' with the characters (another thing that makes her get made fun of). <

well, she IS 12...

> She's recently become pretty engrossed in ancient egypt and can pretty much

tell you anything about it (another

mystical theme). She never seemed to fixate like this when she was younger, so

I don't know if I can say that's an asperger's trait or not. <

hahahaha, ask jacquie. DEFINITELY an asperger's trait.

> Like I said in an earlier post, she never seemed to excel at anything but

lately her poetry really is showing signs of promise. <

maybe she just found her nitch

> I wish someone who knew something about Aspergers could actually meet her..

maybe I should cancel her appt with the dev ped and send her directly to KU with

Zach <

we have a wonderful consultant in michigan :-D

~~~ Imagine all the people, living life in peace - Lennon ~~~

-------------------------

gina, 31, ny

single mom to -

kailey, 8, autism, hyperlexia, depression, anxiety, OCD, DSI

trevor, 3, multiple developmental delays, no " official " dx yet

parker jade, due 7-25-03 :-D

[Guest guest]

I am no expert on Asperger's, but I do know that it is usually

diagnosed in older children, and that they do get humor and jokes.

What you said about her, to me sounds like she has some of AS signs.

It is great that you are ging to have her evaluated..stinks that you

don't like the Dev Ped. IMHO I would ditch him, and find someone you

respect and who will give a definate answer. It really stinks being

up in the air on things, and it is hard to get services without a

diagnoses. I hope all goes well for you.

Libby

> OH I'm glad you brought up the asperger's question, I meant to

> address that earlier but forgot.

>

> I've looked a lot at the information available about aspergers and

> true, she does fit into some of it, but most of it not.

>

> What supports a diagnosis of aspergers:

> She's clumsy as all get out (motor dyspraxia), she is awkward in

> social situations..we can be talking about bowling for instance,

and

> she'll butt in with something like " we saw chickens hatch today " .

> It's so grossly obvious when she has friends over. How they can

hold

> a conversation about something and sound so mature and she just

> can't. This makes it hard to reason with her too.

>

> What does not support asperger's:

> She totally gets humor, cynisicm. She doesn't speak in literal

> terms. She understands the rules of social behavior, but choses to

> not follow them. She doesn't struggle with pragmatics. She

doesn't

> have superior intelligence and stuggles with about every aspect of

> school...not necessarily because she can't do it, but because she

> doesn't want to do it. She's very very clingy and wants to kiss

and

> hug at some of the most inopportune times. Doesnt' seem to have

any

> sort of sensory sensitivites.

>

> She likes to talk about boys, YuGiOh, and other cartoons and says

> she's 'in love' with the characters (another thing that makes her

get

> made fun of). She's recently become pretty engrossed in ancient

> egypt and can pretty much tell you anything about it (another

> mystical theme). She never seemed to fixate like this when she was

> younger, so I don't know if I can say that's an asperger's trait or

> not. Like I said in an earlier post, she never seemed to excel at

> anything but lately her poetry really is showing signs of promise.

>

> She IS supposed to be evaluated by Zach's developmental

pediatrician

> in November by recommendation of her therapist. Maybe that will

shed

> more light on the whole subject. I'm not feeling so great about

this

> developmental ped lately though...she so quickly dismissed Zach as

> having autism (well gave me the wait and see), and that's why we're

> going to KU med center for a different opinion. Another thing,

> Zach's therapist told me recently that the dev ped isn't coming

> through on diagnosing ANY of the kids in the program with

ANYTHING.

> I don't know what's up with that.

>

> I wish someone who knew something about Aspergers could actually

meet

> her.. maybe I should cancel her appt with the dev ped and send her

> directly to KU with Zach.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I wish someone who knew something about Aspergers could actually meet

> her.. maybe I should cancel her appt with the dev ped and send her

> directly to KU with Zach.

>

>

I truly think this would be a good idea. You listed a lot that could be

aspergers. Some of what you listed as not supporting could be supporting,

too. It certainly can't hurt to rule it out.

Sue

[Guest guest]

I'm glad to see the gist of this thread has moved AWAY from christianity vs

other religions.

I'd like to see it stay that way, so that no feathers get ruffled and no one

belonging to any religion in question will be hurt or offended.

Anyone wanting to further clarify on the religion point is, as always, free

to do so off-list.

Thanks!

Jacquie

[Guest guest]

> > What does not support asperger's:

> She totally gets humor, cynisicm. She doesn't speak in literal terms. <

>

According to people who know me, I am very funny. Conversely, I am last to

get a joke.

> > She understands the rules of social behavior, but choses to not follow

them. <

>

> are you sure?

There's a HUGE gap between understanding the rules and being ABLE to follow

them comfortably. For example: clothes. When I was in my teens, Ralph

was all the rage. I was the only one of my circle who did NOT wear

. I stuck out like a sore thumb. So my friends got together and

dressed me in their clothes, maintaining they were going to make me stylish.

I came out of the bathroom in their designer clothing, hair done and makeup

on, AND THEY ALL STARTED LAUGHING. Then and there, they conceded I couldn't

do it. The clothes FELT wrong to me, and I looked every bit as

uncomfortable and miserable as I felt. As one friend put it, " It's like

dressing a puppy in a ball gown. "

> > She doesn't struggle with pragmatics. She doesn't have superior

intelligence and stuggles with about every aspect of school...not

necessarily because she can't do it, but because she doesn't want to do it.

<

I DO have superior intelligence, and got hideous marks because getting good

marks brought me unwanted attention.

> > She's recently become pretty engrossed in ancient egypt and can pretty

much tell you anything about it (another

> mystical theme). She never seemed to fixate like this when she was

younger, so I don't know if I can say that's an asperger's trait or not. <

>

> hahahaha, ask jacquie. DEFINITELY an asperger's trait.

ROTFLMAO!

When we decided to buy a dog, I instantly became an expert on all large

hunting breeds. I knew which were best with kids, which could live in a

small house, which were over sensitive, which were likely to develop hip

dysplasia... Whenever a new issue confronts us, Marc says to me, " well, go

load up on books... "

I have become immersed in, over the years: women in Saudi Arabia, women in

Japan, the Aztecs, the 1920s, Scotland, Geisha, gemology, cargo shipping,

the Tartans of the scottish clans, Judaism, Wicca, Buddhism, Mount Everest,

Lilith, the death of Kurt Cobain (who was murdered, btw), serial killers in

general, Ted Bundy in particular, Iroquois mysticism, creatures who live in

the deepest depths of the ocean, and the Kraken.

Each one completely absorbed my life while I was researching it. I start

these research projects on a whim, and become consumed by them.

Jacquie