Re: Help needed -- any DMSA experts? (long)

[Guest guest]

is there any way you can get/try DMPS?

I have found the relief with dmps (and even when I was on dmsa) to be

fairly immediate. That is why i continously chelate with dmps..I feel

achey and sore whenever i am off a round on dmps.

However i do understand that dmsa can wear your body down more than

dmps

There is a whole list of things that AI and people on the forum have

suggested for depression or flat lining of emotions. You may want to

repost just on this angle

I think its pretty common to experience these " blahs " . I just have

come out of probably a 2 year period of the downers...Is only been a

few weeks so I am hoping it will last. I have found though I can be a

bit manic..ie vey excited about good things and then if they do not

come though its a downer big time...however it wil be interesting to

see how i handle my next big disappointment/stress factor as i have

not had one in the last 2-3 weeks

Also i have found that i can get mentally optmistic " thinking " about

doing new tasks BUT up until the last few weeks just do not have the

physical/mental energy to follow through and do them once i get

started....However i think its good that you can get fired up " in

theory " (if this makes sense) about doing something new..You may just

need more time to heal/chelate

I think in my case its a result of chelation and thyroid/adrenal

support with all the other supps that has helped. I have been not

taking anything specfically for the blahs

many times our bodies know what we need..ie you say you feel worse

off the chealtion. That to me would be a sign that you/your body know

you need to chelate, its just a matter of finding the right mix/dosage

of chelators

michael

>

> Hi, I haven't posted here in several months, so briefly here's my

> story. I fell ill for no apparent reason in the autumn of 2004 with

> SAD-like symptoms, though they never cleared up completely in the

> summers. I'd had 4 amalgam fillings put in 2 months before the

> illness began, after having had none in my adult teeth. In June

2007

> I had these amalgams removed without protection and proceeded to

> chelate with DMSA and ALA for a total of about 7 months. I'd say

> that I was chelating pretty hard the last 5 months.

> By last February, I felt I was getting nowhere -- no noticeable

> improvements, and the SAD was getting at me again. I had a hair

> test done and it showed zero mercury and very low levels of any

> heavy

> metals. Then I had a saliva cortisol test which showed that I have

> adrenal exhaustion, and another test which showed low T3 (thyroid).

> My guess at the time was that the DMSA was doing nothing but

> forcing

> my weak adrenals to perform. My best evidence of this seemed to be

> the fact that I was coming wide awake in the middle of every night

> and couldn't get to sleep without a dose of DMSA. What's more, if I

> missed even a single dose, I felt bad. I don't think chelation

> works that way -- responses should be more gradual, yes?

>

> So I stopped the DMSA and ALA and was feeling very bad while I was

> sorting out adrenal and thyroid meds. I have now optimised my

> adrenal med and am ramping up doses of Armour for thyroid; I'm

> almost at 2 grains.

>

> My worry is that I still am no better. In fact, I'm worse than I\

> was before I stopped chelation. The depression which has been ever-

> present is worse, and there's this awful emotional numbness. I

> started a job in January and was excited and enthusiastic. The past

> several months I was just scraping through; each day was such a

> chore. I am a teacher and it's the summer holidays now, but this

> job I was so keen to do (it's the first one I've had after 5 years

> of being at home raising my child) has just become another of

> those chores that I have to force myself to do.

>

> I know I felt better than this when I was chelating, but I don't

> know why. I'm afraid of damaging my adrenals further by

> experimenting with DMSA again, when mercury might not be my

> problem at all. I just don't know. I do know that nothing I've

> tried in 4 years has worked, my life is going downhill, and I'm

> despairing.

>

> So in a nutshell, here is what I'm wondering. Should I risk trying

> DMSA again anyway? Was it actually helping me? Should I try ALA on

> its own maybe? Or are there other avenues I should investigate? If

> the adrenal and thyroid support don't help then I'm stuck for what

> to do.

>

> Thanks very much for reading and any advice is welcome,

> .

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Than you kindly for your suggestions. I may well ask about depression

and emotional numbness here. New ideas are always good, though I've

read so much and tried to do so much about these that it would be a

welcome surprise if anyone suggested anything I hadn't come across. I

belong to a list for hypothyroidism and adrenal fatigue and they're

saying that I need to keep increasing my Armour dose and get my

female hormones tested; I am seeing an endocrinologist in a week.

Though it always comes back to this question -- I can treat all these

things and maybe make some progress, but why did I suddenly get so

ill, what caused it?

I'm still just not sure about mercury. 4 amalgams for 3 years isn't a

great amount, though I'm aware that we all have our individual

tolerances. I forgot to mention that during 5 months of heavy

chelation with both DMSA and ALA (I ended up on 100mg ALA and 50mg

DMSA, 7x in 24 hours), I eventually found that I felt bad even for a

day without chelating, so I just did it all the time without any

breaks. It was another thing that made me suspicious that maybe

mercury wasn't the cause of my problems -- that far into chelation,

surely a person shouldn't feel so lousy when trying to take the

recommended time off to rest and recover.

Also, that much chelating would presumably have put some mercury into

my bloodstream, and the hair test should have picked some up. My

amalgams came out in June and the hair test was done in January.

I have plenty of DMSA so I could try doing a round . . . just don't

know. The big mystery to me is why I felt better than I do now before

I had adrenal and thyroid support, and was simply chelating.

Thanks again, , this is confusing

.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

A couple things strike me as similar to our own experiences here.

My wife's health, although she was hypothyroid in hindsight, was

generally great before she had one small mercury filling removed

without precautions. Over the next few months, everything went

downhill slowly. She had a few small fillings removed afterwards WITH

precautions, and her health declined quickly for a few months before

stabilizing.

My chelating experience is similar to yours in that my adrenals and

thyroid got worse and worse. I didn't understand what was going on &

treat it aggressively enough until it was too late, and I now take a

large dose of prednisolone just to get by. (I posted on NTH-Adrenals

about this a few weeks ago when you were asking about prednislone

dosages). Your ALA/DMSA doses were relatively huge for someone who

was not feeling good, and I can see why your endocrine system is not

in good shape.

Finally, you are wondering if you are mercury toxic. It doesn't

appear that you analyzed your hair test according to the counting

rules for deranged mineral transport, which is a signature of mercury

poisoning. In many mercury toxic people, mercury and other heavy

metal excretion is often low or negligible. Your symptoms from

chelating are the most indicative of whether you are mercury toxic.

If someone had no mercury toxicity, they are not affected by DMSA or

ALA in a negative way.

Your lack of progress from chelation could be due to the damage to

the endocrine system from too-aggressive chelation. High doses of

chelator result in greater mobilization, especially INTO the brain

when using DMSA, (ALA would mobilize mercury within the brain in

addition to both directions across the blood brain barrier), and

mercury is known to have a greater affinity for the adrenal cortex,

hypothalamus and pituitary from autopsy studies. It could also be due

to other factors like gut or immune system issues, which I don't have

as much personal experience with yet.

Jay

>

> Hi ,

>

> Than you kindly for your suggestions. I may well ask about

depression

> and emotional numbness here. New ideas are always good, though I've

> read so much and tried to do so much about these that it would be a

> welcome surprise if anyone suggested anything I hadn't come across.

I

> belong to a list for hypothyroidism and adrenal fatigue and they're

> saying that I need to keep increasing my Armour dose and get my

> female hormones tested; I am seeing an endocrinologist in a week.

> Though it always comes back to this question -- I can treat all

these

> things and maybe make some progress, but why did I suddenly get so

> ill, what caused it?

>

> I'm still just not sure about mercury. 4 amalgams for 3 years isn't

a

> great amount, though I'm aware that we all have our individual

> tolerances. I forgot to mention that during 5 months of heavy

> chelation with both DMSA and ALA (I ended up on 100mg ALA and 50mg

> DMSA, 7x in 24 hours), I eventually found that I felt bad even for

a

> day without chelating, so I just did it all the time without any

> breaks. It was another thing that made me suspicious that maybe

> mercury wasn't the cause of my problems -- that far into chelation,

> surely a person shouldn't feel so lousy when trying to take the

> recommended time off to rest and recover.

>

> Also, that much chelating would presumably have put some mercury

into

> my bloodstream, and the hair test should have picked some up. My

> amalgams came out in June and the hair test was done in January.

>

> I have plenty of DMSA so I could try doing a round . . . just don't

> know. The big mystery to me is why I felt better than I do now

before

> I had adrenal and thyroid support, and was simply chelating.

>

> Thanks again, , this is confusing

> .

>

[Guest guest]

I read Jay's post before I commented and what he says makes sense, I

also was thinking that your chelator dosage was very high over a

short period of time. I believe, I have read that sometimes the

chelation effect can be cumulative..ie it sneaks up on you and then

bang

Chelation can be very hard on you and i am sure these large a doses

may have worn things down

maybe you want to try smaller doses of dmsa/dmps to clear out

tissue/blood mercury before gently trying ALA.

I just went through a down dosing peiod with ALA. I had been up as

high as 50 mgs ALA and have cut back to 12.50 mgs and think this is

still causing problems (head probelms..more fatigue etc) so I will go

down to 8 mgs and lengthen my time off ALA

I thunk even if its NOT mercury thats causing the primary problems

right now there is a wealth of information in AI and on this forum

about what to do to treat related problems (ie SAD)

Keep the faith, you will find the right mix

also as Jay says others have much more experience on here as remedies

>

> Hi ,

>

> Than you kindly for your suggestions. I may well ask about

depression

> and emotional numbness here. New ideas are always good, though I've

> read so much and tried to do so much about these that it would be a

> welcome surprise if anyone suggested anything I hadn't come across.

I

> belong to a list for hypothyroidism and adrenal fatigue and they're

> saying that I need to keep increasing my Armour dose and get my

> female hormones tested; I am seeing an endocrinologist in a week.

> Though it always comes back to this question -- I can treat all

these

> things and maybe make some progress, but why did I suddenly get so

> ill, what caused it?

>

> I'm still just not sure about mercury. 4 amalgams for 3 years isn't

a

> great amount, though I'm aware that we all have our individual

> tolerances. I forgot to mention that during 5 months of heavy

> chelation with both DMSA and ALA (I ended up on 100mg ALA and 50mg

> DMSA, 7x in 24 hours), I eventually found that I felt bad even for

a

> day without chelating, so I just did it all the time without any

> breaks. It was another thing that made me suspicious that maybe

> mercury wasn't the cause of my problems -- that far into chelation,

> surely a person shouldn't feel so lousy when trying to take the

> recommended time off to rest and recover.

>

> Also, that much chelating would presumably have put some mercury

into

> my bloodstream, and the hair test should have picked some up. My

> amalgams came out in June and the hair test was done in January.

>

> I have plenty of DMSA so I could try doing a round . . . just don't

> know. The big mystery to me is why I felt better than I do now

before

> I had adrenal and thyroid support, and was simply chelating.

>

> Thanks again, , this is confusing

> .

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jay,

Small world isn't it. Yes I'm on that list, but I think there are 2

s there. I'm not taking any hormones other than thyroid; most of

my posts are something along the lines of, " why do I still feel so

bad. "

It's interesting to see the stories of you and your wife, and thanks

for sharing them, though I'm also sorry you both have been in such a

bad way. It's amazing what one amalgam filling can do to a person and

I wouldn't have thought this was the case but it looks like it could

be for me. I was feeling bad before amalgam removal but I felt worse

afterward, until I started on the DMSA.

You said:

Your ALA/DMSA doses were relatively huge for someone who

> was not feeling good, and I can see why your endocrine system is

not

> in good shape.

Possibly, though I was simply thinking that the harder I chelated,

the more quickly things would go. I have a supplement called Algin

which is a seaweed extract, supposedly mops up mobilised mercury in

the gut. I'm not sure how much it helped but I took it on principle.

So are you saying that heavy chelation can actually do more harm than

good? What sort of regime would you suggest instead? I can't say I'd

give any objections either because DMSA is expensive.

>

> Finally, you are wondering if you are mercury toxic. It doesn't

> appear that you analyzed your hair test according to the counting

> rules for deranged mineral transport, which is a signature of

mercury

> poisoning.

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Could you explain what this is?

I've got my hair test results if it would be helpful to post any info

from them here.

Your symptoms from

> chelating are the most indicative of whether you are mercury toxic.

> If someone had no mercury toxicity, they are not affected by DMSA

or

> ALA in a negative way.

I wasn't aware of being affected by them negatively, though maybe I'm

not quite understanding your angle here.

>

> Your lack of progress from chelation could be due to the damage to

> the endocrine system from too-aggressive chelation. High doses of

> chelator result in greater mobilization, especially INTO the brain

> when using DMSA, (ALA would mobilize mercury within the brain in

> addition to both directions across the blood brain barrier)

I didn't think that DMSA did anything to mercury in the brain one way

or the other, and I'd read that you need to use ALA to get it out of

there. Is this too simplistic?

You seem to have quite a lot of knowledge. What would you suggest I

try doing? What is working for you and your wife? I'm willing to give

chelation a try again, based on what you've said here.

Many thanks,

.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I've been looking at my Amalgam Illness book again. Andy recommends

treating hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency anyway. Presumably

if these are treated adequately, you should be feeling better, even

if mercury poisoning is the underlying cause. I think I may have put

my Armour dosage up too quickly yesterday, plus I combined some of my

doses as I was advised to do, because I was taking five a day (I'm

now down to 3). I think this is creating a lot of anxiety and it's

been hard to do anything else but fret today about what's wrong with

me and why I can't seem to put it right.

Andy does suggest the sorts of amounts I was taking: 50-100mg DMSA,

and quite a lot of ALA too. But I belong to another mercury forum and

the people there say these are high amounts too, and many only take

25mg DMSA.

Maybe I should stop worrying about mercury for now and try to

optimise my treatment for the problems I mentioned earlier

(depression and emotional numbness)? Should I write a new post about

these specific issues?

Thanks again,

.

[Guest guest]

> So are you saying that heavy chelation can actually do more harm

than

> good?

Yes, definitely

> What sort of regime would you suggest instead? I can't say I'd

> give any objections either because DMSA is expensive.

see below

> > Finally, you are wondering if you are mercury toxic. It doesn't

> > appear that you analyzed your hair test according to the counting

> > rules for deranged mineral transport, which is a signature of

> mercury

> > poisoning.

>

> I'm sorry but I don't understand. Could you explain what this is?

> I've got my hair test results if it would be helpful to post any

info

> from them here.

You can post them according to the format suggested in Moria's page,

or you can send them to DeanSA and he will post them online for you.

See instructions at bottom for this. The counting rules are explained

on Moria's page:

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/HOW_TO_hair_test.html

Once your hair test is posted, someone will give you helpful

suggestions for other areas of potential support, e.g. ammonia

issues, liver issues, etc. It's based on Cutler's HTI book.

>

> Your symptoms from

> > chelating are the most indicative of whether you are mercury

toxic.

> > If someone had no mercury toxicity, they are not affected by DMSA

> or

> > ALA in a negative way.

>

> I wasn't aware of being affected by them negatively, though maybe

I'm

> not quite understanding your angle here.

It sounds like you developed adrenal exhaustion from using DMSA and

ALA but I'm not sure if you understood this only after the fact or as

it was happening. I could be wrong about them causing adrenal

problems though. Are you aware of your symptoms of adrenal stress as

they happen?

Personally I found ALA creates much more adrenal stress than DMSA on

a round, but it took me many months to recognize what was going on.

> > Your lack of progress from chelation could be due to the damage

to

> > the endocrine system from too-aggressive chelation. High doses of

> > chelator result in greater mobilization, especially INTO the

brain

> > when using DMSA, (ALA would mobilize mercury within the brain in

> > addition to both directions across the blood brain barrier)

>

> I didn't think that DMSA did anything to mercury in the brain one

way

> or the other, and I'd read that you need to use ALA to get it out

of

> there. Is this too simplistic?

High doses of DMSA or DMPS will cause some mercury to be mobilized

into the brain. It's not mercury bound to DMSA that goes into the

brain, its the mercury that becomes unbound naturally as DMSA picks

it up and drops it off.

There's a section in Amalgam Illness that describes this process,

(the ping pong diagram) and you can get more detailed information on

how this happens here:

http://onibasu.com/wiki/Cutler_protocol#Movement_of_mercury_in_the_bod

y

http://onibasu.com/wiki/Cutler_protocol#Brain_clearance_of_mercury

> What would you suggest I

> try doing?

From my own experience with adrenal problems, I had problems with

understanding the symptoms and then getting adequate support. It took

a lot of experimentation and I don't have a doctor to help.

I think if you can sort out your adrenal/thyroid issues, its worth

trying chelation again, but starting from a much lower dose and one

chelator at a time to start with.

If you don't see any improvement after a few rounds, its time to look

into antivirals or immune issues. Thats where I am now because I

haven't had progress from chelation despite the very typical mercury

signs and symptoms. I now know I have viral/immune issues, and my

understanding is that many mercury toxic + viral kids excrete mercury

much more readily after/during antiviral treatment. My wife has had

progress, but its been extremely slow for her, and we suspect she has

viral issues as well.

DeanSA's instructions for posting hair tests to his site:

> Forward your hair test on to me (hairtest@...) and

I'll post

> it here:

> http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/healingnetwork/hairtest.html

>

> Please be sure to answer all these questions when you send the test

in:

> 1) What are your current symptoms and health history?

> 2) Dental history (wisdom teeth removed? First root canal placed?

Braces?

> First amalgam etc...)

> 3) What dental work do you currently have in place? What part of

the dental

> cleanup have you completed?

> 4) What dentistry did your mother have at any time before or during

> pregnancy?

> 5) What vaccinations have you had and when (including flu and

especially

> travel shots)?

> 6) Supplements and medications (including dosages) taken at time of

hair

> test, or for the 3-6 months before the sample was taken.

> 7) Other information you feel may be relevant?

> 8) What is your location - city & country (so that we can learn

where

> certain toxins are more prevalent).

Jay

[Guest guest]

keep in mind the book was written I believe over 10 years ago and

current protocols from Andy and from everyones experience is for much

lower dosages

For whatever reason you may have gotten through a short period of

overdosing but then it caught up to you (cumulative effect)

I believe most people make it up to 12-25 mgs of both dmsa/dmps and

ALA and this is graduated up to , ie after 8-12 months

yes AI says you have to treat adrenals BEFORE treating thyroidor

adrenals will crash from thryoid supps

I still think dmps should be tried as it seems to be easier on a lot

of people

yes I would write a new post on the emotional issues with a " brief

background " . I like a lot of people including moderators likley have

trouble reading things that are very long or more than 10-12 lines in

a paragraph. It seems to overload my faculties . You may want to do

some research first though in AI through the index and read those

pages that seem to apply to the emotional/depression/anxiety

my understanding is balancing adrenals and thryroids are tricky

and can take months even years.

some people take breaks from chelation (I think I am going to take a

little break from ALA) as for me it seems to be casuing some

problems...its really trial and error and trying to understand what

your body is saying to you [i am not trying to repeat a psycho babble

mantra here ]

>

> Hi ,

>

> I've been looking at my Amalgam Illness book again. Andy recommends

> treating hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency anyway.

Presumably

> if these are treated adequately, you should be feeling better, even

> if mercury poisoning is the underlying cause. I think I may have

> put my Armour dosage up too quickly yesterday, plus I combined some

> of my doses as I was advised to do, because I was taking five a

> day (I'm now down to 3). I think this is creating a lot of anxiety

> and it's been hard to do anything else but fret today about what's

> wrong with me and why I can't seem to put it right.

>

> Andy does suggest the sorts of amounts I was taking: 50-100mg DMSA,

> and quite a lot of ALA too. But I belong to another mercury forum

> and the people there say these are high amounts too, and many only

> take 25mg DMSA.

>

> Maybe I should stop worrying about mercury for now and try to

> optimise my treatment for the problems I mentioned earlier

> (depression and emotional numbness)? Should I write a new post

> about these specific issues?

>

> Thanks again,

> .

>

[Guest guest]

I think you should also drop the supps that are not specifically

mentoned in AI. I seem to remember algin is not recommended..if its

from the ocean its likley poluuted with something (chorella)

NO NO NO on the " harder the better " for chelation. If it hurts stop

or lower the dosage or decrease the time between dosages but start low

ie 6 mgs and do a few rounds at this level

If you choose to start back in i think it would be better to start

with the dmsa for a few rounds to mop up excess mercury before adding

ALA

ALA is extremely powerful to the organs and brain. I think Jay

mentioned maybe too high a dosages caused adrenals to crash

This has happened to me recently with ALA.

have you tried HC (hydrocortisone). This was the only thing that

really has helped me

>

> Possibly, though I was simply thinking that the harder I chelated,

> the more quickly things would go. I have a supplement called Algin

> which is a seaweed extract, supposedly mops up mobilised mercury in

> the gut. I'm not sure how much it helped but I took it on principle.

>

> So are you saying that heavy chelation can actually do more harm

> than good? What sort of regime would you suggest instead? I can't

> say I'd give any objections either because DMSA is expensive.

> .

>

[Guest guest]

> > Possibly, though I was simply thinking that the harder I chelated,

> > the more quickly things would go.

This is incorrect and is the way a lot of foolish people make themselves

horribly sick.

> > I have a supplement called Algin

> > which is a seaweed extract, supposedly mops up mobilised mercury in

> > the gut. I'm not sure how much it helped but I took it on principle.

Algin doesn't do anything one way or the other. Take as much as you want. Since

it isn't a

real chelator, or mobilizer, or otherwise do anything potentially harmful it is

irrelevant to

anything other than your budget.

> > So are you saying that heavy chelation can actually do more harm

> > than good?

Yes.

> > What sort of regime would you suggest instead? I can't

> > say I'd give any objections either because DMSA is expensive.

ALA, which is cheap, is the workhorse chelator.

Adjust amounts to give you tolerable side effects which don't interfere with

your life too

much so you can stick with it long term.

> > .

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks again for your posts, it's kind of you to take the time. I'm

still uncertain about whether or not I'm doing the right thing but a

few rounds of chelation aren't likely to damage me; it's worth doing

them if they might help.

I'll keep in mind what you said about the body's needs changing. If I

were you I would have been panicking about suddenly not being able to

take ALA -- you seem to have things sorted out for yourself. I agree

with you that ALA is hard on the adrenals. It took me a long time to

work my dose up originally, and every time I inched it up I felt

rotten for a while. I'm pretty sure now that it was due to weak

adrenals struggling under the strain.

The advice here has been to keep doses low, so I think that's what

I'll try to do, no more aiming for 50mg, and I am determined to take

time off between rounds rathern than chelate constantly. That is what

I did at first, until it got to the point where I felt awful if I

missed a single dose. I'm taking the DMSA every 4 hours but when I

eventually add ALA I'll need to make it every 3 hours (though I still

only wake myself up once at night to take a dose -- used to do it

twice and I was flat out all the time).

It took me over 3 months to sort out the adrenal support. I never

wanted to take so much and I was worried about it. But lower amounts

just did not work for me. I had got to over 70mg of HC a day and I

wasn't getting relief, so I was pretty pleased to find that I could

take the equivalent of 45mg with medrol. I tried to take less but it

wasn't enough. Val is good on the other list and she and many others

have to take more than 20mg of HC. Some people don't absorb meds very

well (me included, is my guess, judging from my poor mineral

absorption), some metabolise them more quickly or a little

differently. At the end of the day I had to do what worked for me,

and the future will have to take care of itself for now.

The HC is only used for stress doses, so that's when my body is

requiring more anyway. It seems to work well. I'm a bit concerned

about having to do it for DMSA today but hopefully I'll get used to

it and things will settle. I seem to remember that's how it was for

me in the past.

Anyway, I've spent a lot of time on the computer today and I think

I'd better attend to other things. Thanks again for your help, it's

great to be able to come here and get ideas and advice.

.