A Way to Get DMPS (to help with dumping phase) -- UPDATE

September 23, 2008

I'm posting to give an update on my chelation progress and get some

opinions on what the heck is going on and where to go from here. In

the midst of this long post -- thanks to those who get through it! --

there are five groups of questions (Q1, ... Q5).

I'm am really getting slammed these days. Symptoms are almost constantly

flared-up nowadays (horrific brain fog/mental dullness/inactivity in

frontal cortex it seems, very slow thinking, chest

tightness/discomfort, general malaise, just feeling crappy, etc). Can

hardly function at work or socially. Often have difficulty speaking

coherently. Things are getting really bad. Just fighting through it

every moment to get by.

I am currently chelating continuously with DMPS (12.5mg), was doing

every 8 hours just switched to every 6 hours. Initially I thought

that DMPS was helping to keep symptoms in check, if only slightly.

But now it is clear that it is not helping.

I am really hoping that I am in the mercury " dumping " phase. If not,

I have no idea what's going on. If I knew that I was in the dumping

phase, then DMPS should be clearing mercury, and once I get through

this " hump, " things will start getting better.

Q1: But how do I really know I'm in the dumping phase?

Back in April, I ran some provoked urine tests in the context of

low-dose, high frequency chelation. They resulted in no detectable

mercury. A thorough discussion on this forum revealed that such tests

are unreliable for tracking progress with chelation.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/message/26403

Back in April, my chronic symptoms were still very much present

(that's why we call them chronic...), but relatively in check. But

from mid-June through now (mid-Sept), I've been really whacked with

out-of-control symptoms on most days, with just a few not-quite-as-bad

days scattered in between.

Q2: If I ran a provoked urine challenge test while using DMPS,

shouldn't it at least show at least some kind of spike in mercury

(relative to the reference population)? If it didn't, I would have

trouble believing I'm really in the dumping phase. DMPS is supposed a

very powerful chelator, so if no detectable mercury came out, wouldn't

it tell us something?

My D.C. thinks " there must be something else going on. " Since

everything seems to point to mercury in my case, I am still mostly

convinced that mercury toxicity is the primary underlying cause of my

10-year health deterioration. But as I struggle through this really

rough period, with no improvements, while using an extracellular

chelator that is supposed to " alleviate symptoms, " it's hard not to

wonder if something else could be going on.

If I just knew that this was really mercury dumping, and that I'm

really making progress little by little each day, I could probably

make it through this.

Q3: Has anyone else out there gone through this kind of really rough

" dumping " phase, in spite of using DMSA or DMPS + supplements + tons

of antioxidants, and made it through to the other side and continued

chelating to get well? Would Andy know of examples of such cases?

Q4: How long does the dumping phase last? What's the

person-to-person variation in the length of the dumping phase? Since

some people don't report any dumping phase, I'm guessing that the

variation for those that do experience dumping is quite high. Again,

these seem like questions Andy might have answers to, based on his

clinical experience.

Since my last post, I also had an updated hair test:

http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/healingnetwork/hairtest.html I'm

#147, which shows my test from Jan 08 and follow-up in July 08. It's

amazing to me how similar the results are, element by element. If

anything, the July 08 results are slightly better (perhaps aided by

supplementing with boron), but still show very

deranged mineral transport. In my mind, the consistency speaks to the

validity, or at least repeatability of Doctors Data hair tests. It

also seems to imply that I'm still very mercury toxic.

Background: 4+ amalgams for many years. Removed in Oct 07. Started

low-dose, high frequency chelation in Jan 08. Since I'm doing some

continuous chelation, I'm no longer counting " rounds " . Also, since

people do rounds of different lengths, I think it might be more useful

to cite total number of days of chelation, broken down by chelating

agent.

Here's what I've done so far. Following the mantra " chelate, chelate,

and chelate some more " , I've done a lot of chelation time since

starting at the beginning of this year:

131 total days of chelation

20 DMSA-only

32 ALA-only

30 DMSA + ALA

45 DMPS

4 DMPS + ALA

Since August, I've been almost exclusively doing 12.5mg of DMPS,

holding off on ALA for now. And yet I'm still getting whacked.

Another possibility is that working again is wearing me out, flaring

up chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms. Like when I crashed in '07 and

had to stop working since brain could no longer process any

information. Last year I had to take 10 months off from work, and

intentionally led a very low-key existance to try and rest adrenals

and heal. I restarted working in April 08. However, my new job is

not very demanding or stressful. Much of the time I can just hide in

my office and do my individual work. (Though it will soon become more

demanding, and if I don't start improving a bit soon, it's not going

to be pretty.) Pretending I'm a normal human being and trying to

contribute and interact socially during this phase of the detox is

absolutely agonizing.

I'm taking most of the usual supplements, tons of antioxidants (and

have tried to increase them but no noticeable effect).

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/message/27642

I feel like I've tried every supplement possible, including meds like

hydergine. Nothing really helps much or at all. I'm either really

messed up (with mercury) or something else is going on.

Q5: Would it possibly be helpful to get periodic (1-3x per week) IV

Vitaminc C drips to help control symptoms if I am in the mecury

dumping phase?

Amalgams were definitely removed -- had an independent, mercury-free

dentist double check with a panoramic x-ray.

Thanks for your help...

Darren

>

> > According to the oft-quoted chart on Page 52 of AI, it seems

> > conceivable that a huge flare-up in symptoms can occur in the 6-9

> > month timeframe as the body dumps mercury. With proper chelation

> > and supplementation, these effects can supposedly be reduced. Of

> > course, everyone is different. Maybe I need DMPS to control my

> > symptoms at this point, as it is supposedly much more powerful than

> > DMSA.

> >

>

> > I have been taking many of Andy's supplements daily in generous

> doses

> > for many months:

> > ACE

> > DHEA

> > Omega-3 tablets plus flax oil

> > Borrage oil

> > Vit C

> > Vit E + selenium

> > Milk thistle

> > BComplex

> > Magnesium/Calcium

> > Zinc

> > Fiber tablets

> > DMAE

> > L-tyrosine

> > Lecithin

> > Taurine (recently started)

> >

> > About 2-3 months ago, I actually thought my overall condition, in

> > terms of chronic symptoms, was gradually getting a little better.

> > But starting in about June, it's been downhill. Mental dullness has

> > gotten really bad. Hard to hold conversations since nothing's going

> > on in front of brain. I can sit down and do analytical work by

> > myself most days, using a deeper part of the brain, but interacting

> > with other humans is very problematic now. I've had cognitive

> > problems for many years now, but this is the most severe it's been

> > and is somehow different.

>

> > Low-dose, high frequency chelation is certainly 'doing something'.

> > I'm hoping it's progressing as expected and I'm just going through

> > the mercury dumping phase, instead of moving more mercury into the

> > brain. Maybe both are happening.

>

> > After the following: (a) amalgam removal, ( four rounds of

> > inadvisable chelation using high oral doses of ALA, cilantro, DMSA,

> > chlorella (before I discovered Andy's protocol), © several rounds

> > of DMSA-only, (d) many rounds of DMSA+ALA, my symptoms fluctuated

> > but I did not feel like I was getting worse. If anything, I was

> > starting to get a hint better. But in the past two months, things

> > have gotten noticeably worse.

>

> > If I was moving mercury into the brain, I would have thought that it

> > would have happened during the six months after amalgam removal

> > when I did (a) through (d), not in months 8 & 9. I would have

> > thought the 'body burden' would be fairly low by now.

> >

> > And in recent months I've been using lower doses -- 12.5mg ALA,

> > 12.5mg DMSA -- whereas in earlier rounds I was using 25mg or 50mg.

> > (Probably too high, I know, but I was able to tolerate much higher

> > doses on the " inadvisable " protocol, so I figured I could start at

> > 50mg and work down if necessary. And many people, including Andy

> > himself, report using 50mg ALA to get well.) And 50mg was indeed

> > tolerable. But now it seems like irrespective of dose, or even

> > being on round or off-round, I'm just feeling and functioning

> > horrible all-around most of the time.

> >

> > Maybe if I just keep plugging away at 12.5mg ALA / 12.5mg DMSA (or

> > DMPS) I'll get through this phase and start feeling better again

> > soon. Then again, maybe I'll get even worse. I have no idea what

> > to think at this point. Given my problematic mental symptoms, I

> > feel like I need to continue with ALA (perhaps 12.5mg or even lower

> > dose) to continue removing mercury from the brain. Then again,

> > that assumes that ALA will be moving more mercury out of the brain

> > than into it.

>

> >

> > Darren

> >

>

September 25, 2008

>

> <snip>

>

> 131 rounds. That is a lot.

Actually, what the original poster said was 131 total chelation days.

Divided by 3 would give an approximation of 43 rounds, and at low

doses like 12.5 mg I would expect very small amounts of metals

excreted, just enough to get started.

I remember someone here saying they didn't

> really see benefits until round 60, and at the time I thought wow,

> that's a lot of rounds. Just a layman's guess here, but you gotta be

> fairly clean after 131 rounds, especially if there is nothing in the

> urine.

Nothing in the urine can mean that the actual quantity in the urine is

below the level of detection the lab used. There was a message in

archives somewhere where someone talked about different labs using

different methods for quantifying mercury, and that some would not be

able to detect the low levels expected with low doses of challenge agents.

For example, suppose the limit of detection of the lab is 15 units and

there are 10 units in the sample, that is reported as " zero "

You may need a medication to circumvent as best possible

> whatever damage mercury did. There are good medications ya know, that

> can dramatically improve your life.

I believe that this is an important point. Supplements and diet

alterations have been great, but I for one wouldn't be able to chelate

at all without prescription medications.

Limiting to just natural

> supplements is a valiant effort, but potentially robs you of other

> possibilities that generally have a lot more potency at doing what

> they do.

>

> We don't talk about it here much, but our chelator meds themselves can

> alter neurotransmitters and immune functions. A lot isn't known about

> DMPS. It is an experimental drug. DMSA causes neurotransmitter changes

> in trout and rats, maybe humans too?

There is actually quite a lot known about DMSA and DMPS because they

have been around for a long time. Many of the DMPS studies were done

in Europe. Whenever one looks at what any medication can do, the dose

must be taken into consideration. We are using extremely low doses of

chelators here, way lower that anyone ever considered when designing

experiments.

Just a thought. Just another

> thought, but maybe instead of continuing with chelation it might be

> time to take a year off, get some prescription help with symptoms, and

> re-evaluate down the road.

>

I am totally in agreement with the thought about getting prescriptions

help with symptoms, and will elaborate on that in a separate post. I

wouldn't want to take a huge amount of time off of chelation because

chelation is what will ultimately be curative, and it will take a long

time to remove the mercury, especially at very low doses like 12.5 mg.

I took a 6 month break and it turned out that the problems only

worsened during that time. For me, there did not appear to be any

benefit to the long chelation break.

More in a separate post.

J

> You are not in good shape right now. Something has to change.

>

> Geez this stuff is so hard. Forgive me, I am just rambling out loud,

> thoughts to ponder.

>

> >

> > Here's what I've done so far. Following the mantra " chelate,

> chelate,

> > and chelate some more " , I've done a lot of chelation time since

> > starting at the beginning of this year:

> >

> > 131 total days of chelation

> > 20 DMSA-only

> > 32 ALA-only

> > 30 DMSA + ALA

> > 45 DMPS

> > 4 DMPS + ALA

> >

> > Since August, I've been almost exclusively doing 12.5mg of DMPS,

> > holding off on ALA for now. And yet I'm still getting whacked.

> >

>

September 26, 2008

Hi Darren,

It sounds to me that you need to investigate some measures beyond

supplements to alleviate your symptoms. Andy does mention lots of OTC

and prescription possibilities in AI. It's tough for one of us to

guess which ones you might need, especially over the internet. I

realize it is also tough for you to figure out.

One suggestion that I have is to consider some sort of abnormal brain

electrical activity that may be contributing to the " horrific brain

fog/mental dullness/inactivity in frontal cortex " . This is one

problem that I had and was a major reason why I found chelation with

DMPS or DMSA unbearable at first. Actually, I didn't chelate much for

the whole first year after amalgam removal because that whole year was

hell for me. Tests didn't pick up the problem, but my GP was willing

to give a trial of an anti seizure med, and it was literally like

turning the lights on. If I had only discovered that early on I would

have been way, way better off. There is no way I would have ever been

able to chelate without it. (To be honest, it was Andy who eventually

figured it out for me).

I can't really tell if you need more adrenal support from what you

have said or from your hair tests. The pattern is not a typical

adrenal pattern, but it is not normal either.

When Andy said that mercury starts dumping out of organs 3 mo post

amalgam removal he didn't say it starts dumping out of the body. When

a person is as toxic as you and I are the natural clearance of mercury

would be negligible. 12.5 mg doses of DMPS aren't going to increase

that by a huge amount, just by a little bit. If that little bit is

below the detection limit of the urine tests that you are doing, then

it won't show up. I'm not surprised at all. One would actually expect

the reference population to be able to excrete way more mercury

naturally than we can simply because a random sample of them wouldn't

have many people with the genetic predisposition to retain metals that

we have, and wouldn't have the amounts of mercury in them that is

further preventing excretion. I think that you need to forget about

those urine tests. From your symptoms, history, and hair tests it is

clear that you are metal toxic. DMPS will start to clear the metals.

At a dose of 12.5 mg, it is going to be real slow, but at least it is

moving out. There really is no other (safe) way. Once you forget

about the urine tests you can start to think about what other problems

are making chelation problematic for you. In a way your DC is likely

partially right. Mercury poisoning is the underlying cause of all of

your problems that needs to be resolved before you will ever get

better, but there likely IS something else going on that needs to be

addressed. My guess is that the something else is discussed in AI,

and is waiting for you to discover.

J

> >

> > > According to the oft-quoted chart on Page 52 of AI, it seems

> > > conceivable that a huge flare-up in symptoms can occur in the 6-9

> > > month timeframe as the body dumps mercury. With proper chelation

> > > and supplementation, these effects can supposedly be reduced. Of

> > > course, everyone is different. Maybe I need DMPS to control my

> > > symptoms at this point, as it is supposedly much more powerful than

> > > DMSA.

> > >

> >

> > > I have been taking many of Andy's supplements daily in generous

> > doses

> > > for many months:

> > > ACE

> > > DHEA

> > > Omega-3 tablets plus flax oil

> > > Borrage oil

> > > Vit C

> > > Vit E + selenium

> > > Milk thistle

> > > BComplex

> > > Magnesium/Calcium

> > > Zinc

> > > Fiber tablets

> > > DMAE

> > > L-tyrosine

> > > Lecithin

> > > Taurine (recently started)

> > >

> > > About 2-3 months ago, I actually thought my overall condition, in

> > > terms of chronic symptoms, was gradually getting a little better.

> > > But starting in about June, it's been downhill. Mental dullness has

> > > gotten really bad. Hard to hold conversations since nothing's going

> > > on in front of brain. I can sit down and do analytical work by

> > > myself most days, using a deeper part of the brain, but interacting

> > > with other humans is very problematic now. I've had cognitive

> > > problems for many years now, but this is the most severe it's been

> > > and is somehow different.

> >

> > > Low-dose, high frequency chelation is certainly 'doing something'.

> > > I'm hoping it's progressing as expected and I'm just going through

> > > the mercury dumping phase, instead of moving more mercury into the

> > > brain. Maybe both are happening.

> >

> > > After the following: (a) amalgam removal, ( four rounds of

> > > inadvisable chelation using high oral doses of ALA, cilantro, DMSA,

> > > of DMSA-only, (d) many rounds of DMSA+ALA, my symptoms fluctuated

> > > but I did not feel like I was getting worse. If anything, I was

> > > starting to get a hint better. But in the past two months, things

> > > have gotten noticeably worse.

> >

> > > If I was moving mercury into the brain, I would have thought that it

> > > would have happened during the six months after amalgam removal

> > > when I did (a) through (d), not in months 8 & 9. I would have

> > > thought the 'body burden' would be fairly low by now.

> > >

> > > And in recent months I've been using lower doses -- 12.5mg ALA,

> > > 12.5mg DMSA -- whereas in earlier rounds I was using 25mg or 50mg.

> > > (Probably too high, I know, but I was able to tolerate much higher

> > > doses on the " inadvisable " protocol, so I figured I could start at

> > > 50mg and work down if necessary. And many people, including Andy

> > > himself, report using 50mg ALA to get well.) And 50mg was indeed

> > > tolerable. But now it seems like irrespective of dose, or even

> > > being on round or off-round, I'm just feeling and functioning

> > > horrible all-around most of the time.

> > >

> > > Maybe if I just keep plugging away at 12.5mg ALA / 12.5mg DMSA (or

> > > DMPS) I'll get through this phase and start feeling better again

> > > soon. Then again, maybe I'll get even worse. I have no idea what

> > > to think at this point. Given my problematic mental symptoms, I

> > > feel like I need to continue with ALA (perhaps 12.5mg or even lower

> > > dose) to continue removing mercury from the brain. Then again,

> > > that assumes that ALA will be moving more mercury out of the brain

> > > than into it.

> >

> > >

> > > Darren

> > >

> >

>

September 26, 2008

Hi Darren,

I don't have time to review everything right now, but wanted to make a few

comments, before this gets lost in the shuffle, and I've been rather busy

lately. Anyway, feel free to email me privately, if I don't get around to

responding.

Anyway, I agree with , that you may need to examine measures beyond

supplements. I have taken tons of supplements, but eventually found out, that

if you need hormones, you need hormones, and no amount of supplements are going

to fix that. JME. And I also agree that there could be other things going on

besides mercury, but mercury is probably still one of your main problems, so

don't give up on chelation, but investigate other possibilities also. And

another comment, if your main doctor is a DC, who really isn't a doctor because

he can't prescribe meds, they are only going to offer you what they can, and

that will be diet and supplements. He may be helping you where he can, but you

may need more help than he can give. Again, JMO.

As said, your hair test doesn't show the typical adrenal stress pattern,

but my first hair test was like yours, with my potassium at low red, and not

fitting the adrenal pattern, so I never pursued support for a really long time.

After visiting , she said in her experience, that the red low

potassium was a sign of severe adrenal stress, and I think she was right. This

has corrected on subsequent hair tests with adrenal support. So I do believe

you do have an adrenal problem, and it sounds like you may be under a fair

amount of stress, so what you're doing isn't enough. I would suggest maybe

doing another saliva hormone test, and you will probably need more adrenal

support than you are taking right now.

I see you have low red lithium, and I don't see it on your supplement list, so

you may want to add that.

Another thought, the stress of continuous chelation and returning to work, is

probably just too much for you, and I think it's apparent with the low potassium

as a marker of severe adrenal stress, that this maybe what is happening. Maybe

you should try a break from chelation, and see how you feel. I don't think

continuous chelation is good for everyone, especially if you're not well

supported in all areas. I think that's one reason it works for , she has

lots of hormonal and other support, that I think allows her to do it. I have

tried some long rounds, like 2-3 weeks on DMPS, and I can't say that it was good

for me. Probably too much adrenal stress, but then I don't have all of my

hormones figured out and supported yet either. So, just because it works for

some, it doesn't mean that it is good for you.

I'll try to respond more later, if I get a chance, but that's my two cents for

now

Jackie

In frequent-dose-chelation wrote: