Re: Started chelation -- have some questions

[Guest guest]

> progesterone were off the charts high (I've

> since mostly discontinued creams (still use a tiny bit of progesterone

> cream

> once in a while) with little to no change in symptoms).

> Any input on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to pose the

> question to one of the thyroid/adrenal groups too. Thanks so much.

>

> Dana

Hi Dana,

Progesterone cream falsely elevates salivary progesterone, and you may have

been dosing properly, and thus stopped this prematurely.

You might want to reconsider this move.

Thanks,

DeanSA

[Guest guest]

Hi Dean-

I had originally stopped the progesterone and estrogen so that I could test

" baseline " but didn't notice much of anything different after I stopped.

It's been a couple of months, so I'll probably get another saliva test some

time soon.

Dana

_____

From: frequent-dose-chelation

[mailto:frequent-dose-chelation ] On Behalf Of DeanNetwork

Progesterone cream falsely elevates salivary progesterone, and you may have

been dosing properly, and thus stopped this prematurely.

You might want to reconsider this move.

Thanks,

DeanSA

[Guest guest]

In frequent-dose-chelation Dana Black wrote:

[mailto:frequent-dose-chelation ] On Behalf Of Jackie

In frequent-dose- <mailto:frequent-dose-chelation%40yahoogroups.com>

chelation Dana Black wrote:

Hi all-

I've been lurking for a couple of months and finally got all the amalgam out

(had a couple of crowns that ended up having amalgam under them). I'm

working with and just started DMPS 20 mg every 8 hours.

Existing symptoms have worsened somewhat since starting DMPS.

-----------The dose may be too high for you, or maybe you need more frequent

dosing. She also started me on 20mg DMPS/8 hours, but it felt like too much,

so I think I split them in half and did some chelation at 10mg every 6

hours. Then I asked to do 15mg/6 hours, and that worked well for me. It's

the same total amount of chelator in 24 hours (60mg), but I tolerated this

much better than 20mg/8 hours.--------Jackie

*** Hi Jackie -- She suggested smaller more frequent dosing so I'll pursue

that. I guess I have to split the compounded caps until I use these up. She

also said it was up to me whether I wanted to chelate continuously or one

week on one week off, depending on how my symptoms were. I've opted for the

one on one off option - am feeling much better today - my first day off

after the first week. *** Dana

---------Glad you are feeling better. You could call Falls and/or and

ask for a smaller dosage Rx. I think I have called Falls, and asked for small

changes in dosage, and they contact , and get the ok. I know the DMPS is

expensive, so you'll want to use it at some point, but if you get a script for a

smaller dosage, you could save the higher dosage for later, when you tolerate

that amount. Just an idea.

She also told me that I could try continuous chelation, but I didn't know if

that was because I had done a fair amount already, and told her I felt better

while on rounds of DMSA. I personally think it's better for people to try

rounds of chelation first, so they know how they feel on round and off, and go

from there. I know does better on continuous chelation, but I don't think

it's for everybody. I have done some longer rounds, but I'm not sure if its the

best thing for me either. I usually go about 5-7 days now, and just play it by

ear and how things are going.

And a whole week one is probably too much for some people also. I think the

chelation thing is rather personal and individual, and you have to do some

experimenting yourself to find what works best for *you*. If you feel like

stopping before the week is up, as long as it has been at least 3 days, then

that is fine too.--------Jackie

Quick history:

Age 63

-- " Mouth full " of amalgams taken out in 1997 using dam and had removal in

proper order according to charge but no other precautions. Didn't feel any

different afterwards (actually the dentist back then left one tiny filling

that was removed last year by my regular dentist using no precautions).

-- Chronic fatigue symptoms started in late 1980s after several broken

amalgams replaces with more of the same.

----------I went downhill after replacing old amalgams with new ones in the

80's also. That's after they started using the high-copper amalgams, which

are supposed to release the mercury much faster than the old

ones.-------Jackie

*** Yikes! Just what we needed. I'm surprised my copper levels always show up

low. *** Dana

----------The copper isn't extremely high in them, just a higher percentage

than it used to be, and supposedly this mix of metals makes the mercury come out

faster, possibly because of higher electrical current? Sorry, it's been awhile

since I read this, I believe it's in Huggins' books. Anyway, it makes sense in

my case, and helps explains why I got sick after getting those put

in.--------Jackie

-- Have had some low thyroid and low adrenal symptoms since early childhood

(in retrospect).

-- Taking some HC and a little Armour thyroid. Just realized (from

stopthethyroidmaddness.com) that perhaps I should have increased Armour

instead of staying at ½ grain for 2 months. Symptoms haven't changed. Temps

still instable - range from 96.6 to 97.7 am and never do get to 98.6 during

the day.

----------Are you working with on thyroid? I'm just curious if she

chose Armour for you, because I thought she likes the T3 protocol.

Just curious.----------Jackie

*** I'm working with her on thyroid. She suggested trying ½ grain Armour

first.

---------So she never told you when to increase it? Or have you not reported

back to her about it? I think you have to keep on top of keeping in touch with

her about things like this, because I have done that in the past also. If she

tells you to follow up with her or get follow up labs, etc, and you don't, she's

not going to call and remind you to do it. You have to take responsibility for

that kind of stuff yourself. At least that has been my experience. I don't

always set up a phone consult with her, I do some of it through email. She will

answer some simple questions for no charge, but then if I start asking too much

and she has to look things up, then she might charge you for that. But I just

wanted you to know that you can send her emails with updates and ask what to do

next.--------Jackie

From what I've read that's a very small dose. I increased to ½ grain

twice per day and started taking it sublingually (per suggestions at

NTH-Adrenal group), all of which has gotten my temps up and more stable in the

last 4 days. Daytime temps are still below normal but basal is pretty

close and stable so far. I thought HC was supposed to stabilize temps - oh

well, whatever works. suggested I might try , but I'd rather

stay with Armour for a while, since I seem to be improving. *** Dana

----------Like you said, whatever works. If I were you, I would just send her

an email and tell her what you've been doing and what's working, and go from

there. Is she the one who prescribed the Armour? I know she likes 's

protocol, but not sure how much she knows about Armour.------Jackie

My main question relates to adrenal support. had me do a

hydrocortisone push (1 week at 80 mg taken all at once with breakfast, 1

week at 50 mg, 1 week at 20 mg). I felt the best at 50 mg taken at one time

and haven't found an ongoing dose that has worked as well. At 50 mg I lost

all food cravings, had a little more energy, lost weight without effort, had

a LOT more motivation. Taking doses 4 times per day hasn't done much,

although I sleep much better with 5 mg at bedtime. I'm not asking for

" medical advice, " but does anyone have any thoughts about the better

response taking a fairly high dose all at once?

----------I felt pretty good during my taper also, but not as high as yours.

I think the theory is that the tapers help to *clear out* built up stress?

And I agree, I haven't noticed a huge difference in spreading out the dosing

or taking it all at once. I know that goes against what others like

Jefferies advises. It may be sort of an individual thing.---------Jackie

*** I took 20 mg in the AM today and have felt reasonably well today until

around an hour ago when I started having symptoms of leg weakness again.

I'll take another 5 before bed, which helps me sleep. I'm still puzzled as

to why I feel better supplementing HC even though my test looked like I have

plenty. *** Dana

---------Even if you'r adrenals are still putting out enough HC, I would think

supplementing some of it would just take some stress off of them, which might be

what's going on with you. And like I said, I think she told me that a taper

helps to *clear out* built up stress in the body, so maybe it helps you to catch

up or clear the slate. And maybe you're in the stage just before your cortisol

output will drop, so the HC is giving your adrenals some relief or a break right

now. Just speculating.--------Jackie

I might also add that my Canary Club (DiagnosTechs) saliva test showed my

cortisol levels to be above normal in the AM and normal the rest of the day

and evening.

---------Was this before taking any kind of adrenal support? What stage of

adrenal fatigue did this put you in? It sounds like you're in the earlier

stages, when cortisol is still high from stress.----------Jackie

*** Yes it was before any adrenal support. When I had a DiagnosTechs saliva

test about 10 years ago, my cortisol was skating on the very bottom of

normal, but DHEA was at 1 back then too. I'm not sure why cortisol is

uniformly higher now. May be the supplementation or maybe less stress

lately. Hard to say. I've actually taken a little HC off and on for the past

year but hadn't been doing any when I did the saliva test in June. *** Dana

-----------You may have just been doing enough to keep your adrenals afloat.

I think many people spend years in the earlier stages of adrenal fatigue, and

some may never progress to the later stages. Check out the link about the 7

stages of adrenal fatigue I gave in other posts, and/or it's in the links

section. Understanding these stages might help you to understand what's going

on with you. And I don't know if I understand the interaction of them, but your

DHEA plays a role in this too.---------Jackie

DHEA was 1 (very low)

----------Does have you supplementing this?----------Jackie

*** Yes. I'm taking 20 mg in the AM. Hadn't been when I took the test, but

about 6 months prior and for a few years before I had been taking it. ***

Dana

------------The low DHEA is part of your adrenal fatigue. You might be

somewhere in between the stages 3 and 4, with low DHEA, but cortisol is still up

yet. And you have been doing some things off and on to support your adrenals,

so maybe that's why you have prevented a total crash, and have kept them afloat.

Study the stages of adrenal fatigue here.------------Jackie

http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%203.html

---------DHEA is made by your adrenals, besides cortisol, so when they are

struggling, they can't make enough of both. So you may still be making somewhat

adequate cortisol, but can't make enough DHEA too.

And another point I just remembered talking to about. My first cortisol

test showed me just barely in range all day, so would look ok to a lay person.

But when I explained the stress in my life at that time, she said, if my

adrenals were working properly, my cortisol curve should have been high, above

the normal range, in reaction to the stress. So you have to take that kind of

stuff into account also. My body was not reacting properly to the stress, and

this was a sign of adrenal fatigue and that my adrenals just could not respond

appropriately. So you have to take the person into account, along with the test

results too.----------Jackie

and estradiol and progesterone were off the charts high (I've since mostly

discontinued creams (still use a tiny bit of progesterone cream once in a

while) with little to no change in symptoms).

------------What did say about this? I think it takes time before the

effects of stopping the creams will be noticed. If you haven't already, I

would suggest getting/reading Dr. Lee's hormone books, so you

understand all of this better yourself. Should be links in links section,

and Andy now sells them at his website.-----------Jackie

*** She didn't actually tell me to stop them. I did on my own. She suggested

I might want to use a little progesterone, but I haven't used very much. I

think I'll test first then decide. After being off them (P and E) for almost

3 months, I still don't feel much different. The test will be interesting.

Thanks Jackie for all your input. *** Dana

---------My estrogen and progesterone were both on the lower end, so I am

different in that respect. But I do think that you are supposed to offset high

estrogen with progesterone, to keep it in balance. The ratio between the two is

important, according to Dr. Lee and ZRT labs. I would read up on their

info. And I guess the customer service people at ZRT are very helpful too, but

not sure if you have used them for testing.

Also, do some reading in AI about the hormone parts. I don't remember exactly

what Andy said, but it seems there was something about having all low hormones,

and something else about having some high and some low, pointing to something.

So it doesn't hurt to review that part too.---------Jackie