Re: Could we just be moving metals around?

[Guest guest]

--- Hi Dave

Thanks for that good explanation. However, I forgot to mention that

the reason this was also so annoying for me at the time was because I

had a blood test the same week a few days after the DMSA round)which

showed high levels of mercury in my blood.

So obviously the extra cellular mercury was still there in plentiful

amounts.

It's just one of those conundrems which no one seems able to answer.

In frequent-dose-chelation , Sherratt

wrote:

>

> Hi ,

>

> Now that you mention it I do recall your post about the negative

result on your excretion test. After hearing about this I asked

people to post some tests from different times during their chelation

to try to get a sense of how much they were excreting and when. I

think it is quite possible that if you had no extracellular mercury

(from prolonged DMSA chelation, for example), you might excrete

nothing with DMSA only, assuming it does not chelate intracellular

mercury.

>

> In my case, for example, I was completely well for 4 weeks after

getting up to 25mg with DMSA. I could bike 30 miles, had no symptoms,

no side effects from chelation. I did one round with ALA at 3mg and I

have been sick for a month. Every subsequent round of DMSA had major

side effects, even without the ALA. I interpret this as suggesting I

had completely cleared out my extracellular mercury with DMSA, but

that adding in ALA started moving stuff around in a way which lasted

weeks.

>

> Detailed confirmation of this hypothesis can be seen in a specific

case comes from someone who posted in response to my previous appeal

for information from people on this subject. These urine results were

posted June 12th by beigetable@...:

>

> 2/6/05 Prior to chelation, months after final amalgam out:

> 0.8/0.9

>

> 4/7/05 After 5 rounds of DMPS, on 10 mg DMPS every 3 hrs:

> 0.5/0.6

>

> 7/5/05 After 10 rounds of DMPS, on 20 mg DMPS every 3 hrs:

> below detection limit

>

> 8/16/05 After 14 rounds of chelation, on 20 mg DMPS + 10 mg ALA every

> 3 hrs; first

> extended use of ALA:

> 1.3/1.7

>

> 10/3/05 After 20 rounds of chelation, on 50 mg DMPS + 50 mg ALA every

> 3 hrs:

> 1.2/1.7

>

> Notice how mercury is below the detectable limit after prolonged

DMSA chelation until ALA is added, at which point it is higher than at

any other point. This shows that you could have DMSA chelation with

no redistribution and no excretion, assuming that there was

intracellular mercury which was not being chelated.

>

> If you and others have doubts about this, I think the way to clear

them up would be to get more data from more urine tests at different

times. Certainly the dynamics of chelation could be different for

different people, and maybe it is important for those people to figure

out who they are. Right now my chelation is following a path similar

to that of the person above, judging from my symptoms.

>

> I would be eager to see results from anyone else who has taken

multiple urine tests during their chelation and can correlate to what

they were taking.

>

> Good luck,

>

> Dave

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi Sheila,

> > >

> > > Many people in this group, including myself, have had

> > urine tests

> > with and without DMSA chelation. I did not pass any

> > mercury when I

> > was not chelating and passed amounts above the reference

> > levels when I

> > was chelating.

> > >

> > > I have heard more detailed but similar results from

> > many others on

> > this board. If your doctor doubts that DMSA chelates

> > mercury, a urine

> > test would be the quick and easy way to confirm what is

> > well known

> > about DMSA (i.e., that it increases mercury excretion in

> > urine).

> > >

> > > Good luck,

> > >

> > > Dave

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Yes, I remember discussing this blood test now that you mention it. That is

odd. If it were me I would probably want to keep testing until I figured out

what was going on. All in all, it would be great if there was more testing and

study of levels of excretion and burden in blood, urine, and feces during and

between rounds of chelation. It would be great if you could get together 5-10

patients who were starting out, agree on a protocol and tests, and put together

a paper at the end.

Good luck,

Dave

> Thanks for that good explanation. However, I forgot to

> mention that

> the reason this was also so annoying for me at the time was

> because I

> had a blood test the same week a few days after the DMSA

> round)which

> showed high levels of mercury in my blood.

>

> So obviously the extra cellular mercury was still there in

> plentiful

> amounts.

>

> It's just one of those conundrems which no one seems

> able to answer.

>

>

>

> In frequent-dose-chelation , Sherratt

>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > Now that you mention it I do recall your post about

> the negative

> result on your excretion test. After hearing about this I

> asked

> people to post some tests from different times during their

> chelation

> to try to get a sense of how much they were excreting and

> when. I

> think it is quite possible that if you had no extracellular

> mercury

> (from prolonged DMSA chelation, for example), you might

> excrete

> nothing with DMSA only, assuming it does not chelate

> intracellular

> mercury.

> >

> > In my case, for example, I was completely well for 4

> weeks after

> getting up to 25mg with DMSA. I could bike 30 miles, had

> no symptoms,

> no side effects from chelation. I did one round with ALA

> at 3mg and I

> have been sick for a month. Every subsequent round of DMSA

> had major

> side effects, even without the ALA. I interpret this as

> suggesting I

> had completely cleared out my extracellular mercury with

> DMSA, but

> that adding in ALA started moving stuff around in a way

> which lasted

> weeks.

> >

> > Detailed confirmation of this hypothesis can be seen

> in a specific

> case comes from someone who posted in response to my

> previous appeal

> for information from people on this subject. These urine

> results were

> posted June 12th by beigetable@...:

> >

> > 2/6/05 Prior to chelation, months after final amalgam

> out:

> > 0.8/0.9

> >

> > 4/7/05 After 5 rounds of DMPS, on 10 mg DMPS every 3

> hrs:

> > 0.5/0.6

> >

> > 7/5/05 After 10 rounds of DMPS, on 20 mg DMPS every 3

> hrs:

> > below detection limit

> >

> > 8/16/05 After 14 rounds of chelation, on 20 mg DMPS +

> 10 mg ALA every

> > 3 hrs; first

> > extended use of ALA:

> > 1.3/1.7

> >

> > 10/3/05 After 20 rounds of chelation, on 50 mg DMPS +

> 50 mg ALA every

> > 3 hrs:

> > 1.2/1.7

> >

> > Notice how mercury is below the detectable limit after

> prolonged

> DMSA chelation until ALA is added, at which point it is

> higher than at

> any other point. This shows that you could have DMSA

> chelation with

> no redistribution and no excretion, assuming that there was

> intracellular mercury which was not being chelated.

> >

> > If you and others have doubts about this, I think the

> way to clear

> them up would be to get more data from more urine tests at

> different

> times. Certainly the dynamics of chelation could be

> different for

> different people, and maybe it is important for those

> people to figure

> out who they are. Right now my chelation is following a

> path similar

> to that of the person above, judging from my symptoms.

> >

> > I would be eager to see results from anyone else who

> has taken

> multiple urine tests during their chelation and can

> correlate to what

> they were taking.

> >

> > Good luck,

> >

> > Dave

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > > Hi Sheila,

> > > >

> > > > Many people in this group, including myself,

> have had

> > > urine tests

> > > with and without DMSA chelation. I did not pass

> any

> > > mercury when I

> > > was not chelating and passed amounts above the

> reference

> > > levels when I

> > > was chelating.

> > > >

> > > > I have heard more detailed but similar

> results from

> > > many others on

> > > this board. If your doctor doubts that DMSA

> chelates

> > > mercury, a urine

> > > test would be the quick and easy way to confirm

> what is

> > > well known

> > > about DMSA (i.e., that it increases mercury

> excretion in

> > > urine).

> > > >

> > > > Good luck,

> > > >

> > > > Dave

> > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

THe readings on these tests would also be affected by the

ability of our organs to excrete these metals. This could be

quite variable. In my case my liver /gallbladder was getting

worse with chelation after I added on ALA as ALA affects

bile flow. THere may be other variables.

I would say this is a big part of chelation. It is not just

what the chelators are able to take out of storage , it is also

the abililty of our organs like the liver and kidneys to take

these metals out of our bodies.

nanci

>

> Hi ,

>

> Yes, I remember discussing this blood test now that you mention

it. That is odd. If it were me I would probably want to keep

testing until I figured out what was going on. All in all, it would

be great if there was more testing and study of levels of excretion

and burden in blood, urine, and feces during and between rounds of

chelation. It would be great if you could get together 5-10 patients

who were starting out, agree on a protocol and tests, and put

together a paper at the end.

>

> Good luck,

>

> Dave

>

[Guest guest]

It is not just

> what the chelators are able to take out of storage , it is also

> the abililty of our organs like the liver and kidneys to take

> these metals out of our bodies.

-----------------------

This is the part I have a hard time understanding. Obviously some of

us do not excrete metals well. How exactly do chelators help excrete

mercury out of the body better? I know chelators mobilize mercury and

ala crosses the blood brain barrier. But if our bodies do not excrete

metals well, wouldn't chelation just clog up our kidneys and liver

even more? I mean they don't " fix " our ability to excrete metals,

right? Obviously there's a piece I'm missing here...

vAl

[Guest guest]

>

> It is not just

> > what the chelators are able to take out of storage , it is also

> > the abililty of our organs like the liver and kidneys to take

> > these metals out of our bodies.

>

> -----------------------

>

> This is the part I have a hard time understanding. Obviously some of

> us do not excrete metals well. How exactly do chelators help excrete

> mercury out of the body better? I know chelators mobilize mercury and

> ala crosses the blood brain barrier. But if our bodies do not excrete

> metals well, wouldn't chelation just clog up our kidneys and liver

> even more? I mean they don't " fix " our ability to excrete metals,

> right? Obviously there's a piece I'm missing here...

>

> vAl

>

When chelators are taken at the half life for a period of time they

will remove metals from the body, even if the person does not excrete

metals very well. This follows from the chemical properties of

chelators (that contain 2 SH groups) and how they behave in the human

body.

When people start on Andy's protocol they are usually starting at the

low end of the dose range. That is a very low dose of chelator. The

quantity of metal excreted at any one time is not expected to be

large. In his protocol, small quantities are excreted over a very

long period of time. Removing small quantities slowly is the best way

to remove them so as not to damage the person. Taking the doses at

the half life ensures that the metals keep moving out of the brain and

organs rather than into them.

I explained, to the best of my ability, why the numbers on these tests

can be below the detection limit of the test in a previous post. With

the low doses of chelators that we use the quantity of mercury

excreted could be below the detection limit. If an enormous dose of

chelator is given, like on the IV challenge tests, there would likely

be more metals detected in urine, but the risk is to permanently

damage the person doing the test, so it's not worth it.

J