Re: just starting out - 12mg dosage too high?

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie,

From my personal experience I advocate using very low

doses (lower than most people are starting with). I

think it is just as effective in making you well, and

maybe more so because it may be possible to avoid all

side effects depending on how sick you are.

I am very sensitive and was able to avoid almost all

side effects, but I started chelation at 3mg DMSA

only, and I weigh 165 pounds. I followed Dean's rule

of waiting 4 rounds with no side effects before

raising my dose. I waited until I had DMSA at 25mg

with no side effects before adding ALA. I just added

3mg ALA last round, and had almost no side effects. I

will only raise my ALA as side effects stay under

control. I shoot for just enough chelator so that I

feel slightly grumpy two days after a round, but

nothing more. When the grumpy goes away I bump my

dose.

The side effects can creep up on you after a couple

rounds and then hit so hard it takes weeks to recover.

That is my experience from the one or two times I

broke my own rules and raised dosages too fast. I

took this approach because I have heard from way too

many people on this board who seem to have taken

dosages too far and injured themselves. Sometimes the

dosages involved were the same ones which are

recommended, such as 12mg and 25mg.

Over time the recommended dosages have been revised

downwards - they used to be in the hundreds! From my

point of view this is a sign that we may still be too

high and that it is time for another downward

revision. I think this board should advocate 3-6mg as

a starting dose for a person weighing 165, and then

raising doses only as " almost no symptom " status is

achieved for 4 rounds.

Just my opinion,

Dave

--- Ladyshrink111@... wrote:

> Very, very good advice, Jackie, particularly for a

> child and specifically for a child with seizures.

>

>

>

> Re: just

> starting out

>

>

>

> In frequent-dose-chelation

> ngozi_cathy wrote:

>

> hello every one,

> my son just completed his first round of DMSA and

> ALA this am. it was

> uneventful, really-but he did have a mild seizure

> early this morning

> (he is on seizure medication) as well some really

> mushy and smelly

> poops during the round. i started with 12.5 mg of

> both dmsa and ala

> but i was wondering if i should increase the dose

> of ALA since he

> seems to tolerate it so well.

> cathy

>

> ---------Hi Cathy. No I would not recommend

> increasing the dosage already. Especially since this

> was only your first round, and especially since this

> is a child. Does he usually still have seizures,

> even while on his meds? Or was this something new,

> having a seizure after this round? And how old is

> your child, and is he verbal? (Sorry, I can't

> remember if you've told us some of this already.)

> You don't want to harm him or make him miserable by

> trying to increase the dosages of chelators too

> fast.

>

> Sometimes it takes a few rounds before people

> notice problems, so ramping up too fast is not a

> good idea. We usually recommend at least 3-4 rounds

> at one dose before ramping up. And DeanSA has a good

> rule of thumb, that you should have 4 rounds of no

> symptoms before increasing your dosage. I think it's

> better to take it slow and be safe, rather than

> trying to go too fast. TK had said many times that

> that is the biggest mistake he had seen people make,

> was trying to go too fast. This is a marathon, not a

> race, so please take it slow.-------Jackie

>

>

[Guest guest]

The posts about using a low enough dose so that you don't feel any

side effects are interesting, but I wonder if it's possible.

Might someone react poorly to DMSA but not to ALA? I would hate to

postpone ALA waiting in vain to enjoy DMSA, especially when DMSA

doesn't even increase total excretion very much (since it increases

only urinary, not bilary excretion). Also, perhaps simply being on

high-dose zinc, vitamin D, and other supplements increases total

excretion reasonably well -- any thoughts?

I've done one round, four days, DMSA 6.25 mg every 3 hours. I felt

energized clear-headed, and productive (all unusual) but also up-

tight and exhausted -- very wired-and-tired. Each night I couldn't

get back to sleep after the 3 am dose, despite being exhausted (but I

could nap a bit during the day). But I had no symptoms that I think

of as " mercury " -- like brain fog and muddy thinking. But I prefer

the off-round -- slightly foggy but relaxed.

I'm willing to do a few more rounds of DMSA, but my understanding is

that it's actually okay to skip this step. I'm looking forward to

starting ALA as soon as possible (e.g., late October, two months post

amalgam), probably at 3 mg. But to me it sounds unnecessary to stay

on DMSA for more than two months, even if I don't go above 6.25

mg.

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Just wanted to say that I totally agree with what you said, and think

you broke it down perfectly... start very low (lower than what a lot

of people may start with), then follow Dean's rule of doing 4 rounds

with no side effects before raising the dosage (and even then, bump

it up slowly).

You wrote: " The side effects can creep up on you after a couple

rounds and then hit so hard it takes weeks to recover. "

Yes, this has been true for me too, to some extent. I started

chelation about 3 weeks ago (DMPS), with what I thought was a safe,

low dosage -- 10mg. Although I had some side effects from this

dosage from the get-go, they were tolerable -- but what I didn't

realize at the time was that they were gradually creeping up on me so

that by the 4th round, I felt terrible. I have since then had to

take a small break, and when I resume for the 5th round, I will cut

back to 5mg. This is probably the ideal dosage I should've *started*

with.

I agree that the board should consider revising (lowering) its

starting dosage recommendations, as you wrote:

" I think this board should advocate 3-6mg as

a starting dose for a person weighing 165, and then

raising doses only as " almost no symptom " status is

achieved for 4 rounds. "

After all, if a person does well on this initial low dosage, they can

always increase it soon afterwards. That's better than starting off

too high, feeling lousy later, and then reverting back to a lower

dose later, as what I'm doing. (BTW, I'm not necessarily complaining

about what happened to me, as it's been educational to me as a newbie

as to what chelation can do to me, as well as what effects different

dosages have on me... now I know firsthand what people here in the

group were talking about when they discussed side effects, etc!)

My recommendation for newbies is the same as what you wrote, and I

agree that the board should consider revising its starting dose

recommendations (start at 3-6mg, and only increase after 4 rounds of

virtually no side effects) -- eg. in the TK file, etc.

Suzanne

>

> Hi Jackie,

>

> From my personal experience I advocate using very low

> doses (lower than most people are starting with). I

> think it is just as effective in making you well, and

> maybe more so because it may be possible to avoid all

> side effects depending on how sick you are.

>

> I am very sensitive and was able to avoid almost all

> side effects, but I started chelation at 3mg DMSA

> only, and I weigh 165 pounds. I followed Dean's rule

> of waiting 4 rounds with no side effects before

> raising my dose. I waited until I had DMSA at 25mg

> with no side effects before adding ALA. I just added

> 3mg ALA last round, and had almost no side effects. I

> will only raise my ALA as side effects stay under

> control. I shoot for just enough chelator so that I

> feel slightly grumpy two days after a round, but

> nothing more. When the grumpy goes away I bump my

> dose.

>

> The side effects can creep up on you after a couple

> rounds and then hit so hard it takes weeks to recover.

> That is my experience from the one or two times I

> broke my own rules and raised dosages too fast. I

> took this approach because I have heard from way too

> many people on this board who seem to have taken

> dosages too far and injured themselves. Sometimes the

> dosages involved were the same ones which are

> recommended, such as 12mg and 25mg.

>

> Over time the recommended dosages have been revised

> downwards - they used to be in the hundreds! From my

> point of view this is a sign that we may still be too

> high and that it is time for another downward

> revision. I think this board should advocate 3-6mg as

> a starting dose for a person weighing 165, and then

> raising doses only as " almost no symptom " status is

> achieved for 4 rounds.

>

> Just my opinion,

>

> Dave

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Dave is right on target. We did 7 rounds ALA on our two boys, ages 5

& 10, before adding DMSA. When we started DMSA, the total dose of

chelator was too high for my younger one. It brought on CNS problems

(peripheral neuropathy) that stuck around for a MONTH before they

finally settled down enough to start chelating again. You just DON'T

want to go there, trust me.

Our older son has improved quite noticeably with asymptomatic

rounds. What I noticed was first day irritability/fighting between

the two of them and then day after, both of them have signs of

redistribution. My older son's sign is snapping his fingers and the

other one has peripheral neuropathy. For the younger one, usual

signs of redistribution were VERY SLIGHT, complaining of finger and

feet - kicking, stomping, etc. You don't want these to stick around

more than a day or two. Pay close attention to what your child's

redistribution signals are and monitor them.

>

> Hi Jackie,

>

> From my personal experience I advocate using very low

> doses (lower than most people are starting with). I

> think it is just as effective in making you well, and

> maybe more so because it may be possible to avoid all

> side effects depending on how sick you are.

<snip>

[Guest guest]

In frequent-dose-chelation Sherratt wrote:

Hi Jackie,

---------Hi Dave, thanks for sharing your personal experiences with us, and

I'm glad to hear you are doing well. Do I remember right, that you are the one

who has done the Melisa Test and also has mercury allergy? I can't remember

what your hair test looked like. But I think we discussed, that maybe the

reason you are more sensitive than some is because of this allergy and needed to

start at really low doses because of this? Just trying to see if I remember

things right.

So I think you are a really good example that there are *lots* of variables

involved in this, inlcuding a whole range of different levels of toxicity,

possible allergies, and a miriad of other complicating health factors, that it

is just impossible for us to know what will be a good starting dose for each

individual. Sorry to say, but it just takes some experimenting to find this

out.

I will comment more below, and probably on other posts in this thread. I have

discussed it some with , who is the head moderator, and she is probably

thinking about it before she posts her opinion.--------Jackie

From my personal experience I advocate using very low

doses (lower than most people are starting with). I

think it is just as effective in making you well, and

maybe more so because it may be possible to avoid all

side effects depending on how sick you are.

---------Yes, there is nothing wrong with going very low, and and I have

always told people to lower their dose, if they are having trouble.-------Jackie

I am very sensitive and was able to avoid almost all

side effects, but I started chelation at 3mg DMSA

only, and I weigh 165 pounds. I followed Dean's rule

of waiting 4 rounds with no side effects before

raising my dose. I waited until I had DMSA at 25mg

with no side effects before adding ALA. I just added

3mg ALA last round, and had almost no side effects. I

will only raise my ALA as side effects stay under

control. I shoot for just enough chelator so that I

feel slightly grumpy two days after a round, but

nothing more. When the grumpy goes away I bump my

dose.

------------It sounds like you have developed a very good plan of attack for

yourself. Thanks for sharing that with us. I think it helps newbies alot to

hear stuff like this. I agree it doesn't pay to push the dosages too high and

feel crappy. I recently tried going up to 25mg of DMPS, and it was tolerable,

but still more side effects than I cared to have, so I just dropped back down to

20mg, where I know I can chelate rather uneventfully.--------Jackie

The side effects can creep up on you after a couple

rounds and then hit so hard it takes weeks to recover.

That is my experience from the one or two times I

broke my own rules and raised dosages too fast. I

took this approach because I have heard from way too

many people on this board who seem to have taken

dosages too far and injured themselves. Sometimes the

dosages involved were the same ones which are

recommended, such as 12mg and 25mg.

----------I agree that many people go too fast and harm themselves, and that

was something I learned from TK, is that he said over and over that that was the

biggest mistake he has seen people make, is trying to go too fast. And he has

said that side effects can creep up on you after a few rounds, just like you're

saying, so I totally agree with you there.

And the key word in your last sentence is *recommended*. These are only

recommendations, and the general recommendation to start at 12.5mg, is just

that, a recommendation, made in general to give people some starting point, and

probably is a reasonable suggestion for *most* people. Everyone is so

different, and there are so many variables involved, that it is impossible for

us to predict who will tolerate what dose. And people need to take some

responsibility for this themselves also, do some research, and decide what is

best for them personally. And sorry to say, but there just is some trial and

error involved with this to find the right dose for yourself. We have all had

to go through it.

Now I had nothing to do with writing the recommendations, but 12.5mg is what

was recommended to me when I joined, and luckily it was the correct dosage for

me. I felt good at 12.5mg, and couldn't tolerate 25mg when I tried. I even had

to do 16mg for awhile. Some people feel nothing at that dose and need to go

higher, and some like you and others, need to go lower. Everyone is

different.--------Jackie

Over time the recommended dosages have been revised

downwards - they used to be in the hundreds! From my

point of view this is a sign that we may still be too

high and that it is time for another downward

revision. I think this board should advocate 3-6mg as

a starting dose for a person weighing 165, and then

raising doses only as " almost no symptom " status is

achieved for 4 rounds.

-----------Like I said, there are so many variables involved, we will never be

able to recommend the perfect starting dose for everyone. And, is the

head moderator, so any big changes should come from her, but I'm not sure if she

would change TK's file or not. We'll have to wait to hear from her. And we

have always told people to lower their dosage, if the side effects are too much.

We have never told anyone to tough it out.

Anyway, one idea I had was maybe we should develop a poll, and ask people what

dosage they started on, and whether that was good or bad for them. What do you

think of that idea? Might be very interesting.----------Jackie

Just my opinion,

-----------Thanks for sharing And of course, the above is just my

opinions also, and others may differ.----------Jackie

Dave

<snip>

>

[Guest guest]

In frequent-dose-chelation kristinhomme wrote:

The posts about using a low enough dose so that you don't feel any

side effects are interesting, but I wonder if it's possible.

----------Yes it is. I know has tested this, and didn't feel anything

at 12.5mg, but 25mg was too much, and 18mg was just right for her to start with.

I felt really good on round when starting out at 12.5mg, but couldn't tolerate

25mg for a long time, and had to do 16mg in between there.---------Jackie

Might someone react poorly to DMSA but not to ALA?

---------Maybe answered this already, but TK couldn't tolerate any DMSA

at all, but did tolerate DMPS, and then later ALA. And there have been people

that have said they feel better on ALA alone, so don't use the other chelators.

But for others, using DMSA or DMPS with ALA helps reduce side effects. So we

are all different, and you just have to try the different chelators and see how

you react.

I personally felt really good on DMSA when I started, so I think it is worth

trying. You just won't know how each chelator makes you feel until you try

them.--------Jackie

I would hate to postpone ALA waiting in vain to enjoy DMSA,

-----------Yes, once people get past 3 months post amalgam, they should try

ALA at some point. Now there has also been much variation as to when people can

tolerate adding it in. So again, it is something you just have to experiment

with. But you won't know until you try it.----------Jackie

especially when DMSA doesn't even increase total excretion very much (since

it increases only urinary, not bilary excretion).

---------If I remember right, I think Andy says something like 30% increase

over using ALA alone? I believe that is in AI somewhere. I think the bigger

factor is whether or not it helps people have fewer side effects or not, which,

for some, it does. So they will probably choose to continue to use it. Another

factor would be if you have lead, because DMSA is the best chelator for lead.

So there are other considerations.----------Jackie

Also, perhaps simply being on high-dose zinc, vitamin D, and other supplements

increases total excretion reasonably well -- any thoughts?

---------I have never heard Andy say anything like that in regards to mercury.

In HTI, he does say that methylating agents will help the body remove *some*

arsenic, and I believe antimony is similar too. He does promote supplements to

support your body during chelation and to aid in repairs. But according to

Andy, true chelators have double thiols, and the only supplement that has this

is ALA, and of course DMSA and DMPS.----------Jackie

I've done one round, four days, DMSA 6.25 mg every 3 hours. I felt

energized clear-headed, and productive (all unusual)

-----------Yes, this is what would happen to me too, it was like someone

flicked a switch on, and I felt almost normal. It was wonderful, and I never

wanted to stop, so I would do longer rounds, like 7 days.---------Jackie

but also up-tight and exhausted -- very wired-and-tired.

----------This is usually an adrenal symptom, wired and tired. Have you done

any saliva testing for adrenals yet?--------Jackie

Each night I couldn't get back to sleep after the 3 am dose, despite being

exhausted (but I could nap a bit during the day).

-------------This could be low cortisol and/or low blood sugar during the

night. It has been discussed before, you could search archives. But probably

another sign that you should check your saliva cortisol levels and probably your

blood sugar, Andy recommends the hemoglobin A1c for this.---------Jackie

But I had no symptoms that I think

of as " mercury " -- like brain fog and muddy thinking. But I prefer

the off-round -- slightly foggy but relaxed.

----------So you had no symptoms the first day or two off round?-------Jackie

I'm willing to do a few more rounds of DMSA, but my understanding is

that it's actually okay to skip this step. I'm looking forward to

starting ALA as soon as possible (e.g., late October, two months post

amalgam), probably at 3 mg. But to me it sounds unnecessary to stay

on DMSA for more than two months, even if I don't go above 6.25

mg.

-----------Again, this is a very individual thing. Some people do fine on ALA

alone, but others do not. Some have to use DMSA or DMPS for a long time before

they tolerate ALA. So we are all different. The symptoms you had sound adrenal

to me, so I would look into that, and maybe not be so quick to write off DMSA.

Chelation does cause some adrenal stress, and I don't think it's going to matter

if you're using DMSA or ALA, so you will probably have to address this

regardless. But of course, the decision is up to you on which chelator to

use/try.----------Jackie

[Guest guest]

I found myself that it takes more than just one round , in

my case two rounds at a higher strength before you see a

problem... This can be dissapointing but heh at least we do

know how to heal... and I guess we are all learning time can

be a healer..LOL

nanci

[Guest guest]

As Jackie pointed out, TKs general chelation suggestions (in the files

section) are just that - suggestions or recommendations. I don't

think that TK has time to change the file at the present time. I will

look at it in the fall or winter when I have some time. Right now I

am getting ready to go away....

J

> >

> > Hi Jackie,

> >

> > From my personal experience I advocate using very low

> > doses (lower than most people are starting with). I

> > think it is just as effective in making you well, and

> > maybe more so because it may be possible to avoid all

> > side effects depending on how sick you are.

> >

> > I am very sensitive and was able to avoid almost all

> > side effects, but I started chelation at 3mg DMSA

> > only, and I weigh 165 pounds. I followed Dean's rule

> > of waiting 4 rounds with no side effects before

> > raising my dose. I waited until I had DMSA at 25mg

> > with no side effects before adding ALA. I just added

> > 3mg ALA last round, and had almost no side effects. I

> > will only raise my ALA as side effects stay under

> > control. I shoot for just enough chelator so that I

> > feel slightly grumpy two days after a round, but

> > nothing more. When the grumpy goes away I bump my

> > dose.

> >

> > The side effects can creep up on you after a couple

> > rounds and then hit so hard it takes weeks to recover.

> > That is my experience from the one or two times I

> > broke my own rules and raised dosages too fast. I

> > took this approach because I have heard from way too

> > many people on this board who seem to have taken

> > dosages too far and injured themselves. Sometimes the

> > dosages involved were the same ones which are

> > recommended, such as 12mg and 25mg.

> >

> > Over time the recommended dosages have been revised

> > downwards - they used to be in the hundreds! From my

> > point of view this is a sign that we may still be too

> > high and that it is time for another downward

> > revision. I think this board should advocate 3-6mg as

> > a starting dose for a person weighing 165, and then

> > raising doses only as " almost no symptom " status is

> > achieved for 4 rounds.

> >

> > Just my opinion,

> >

> > Dave

> >

> >

> > -

>

[Guest guest]

How can one tell if one's symptoms on-round are due to too much

chelator or too little of some support (e.g., adrenal)? Or are they

the same?

My symptoms on round one (6.25 mg DMSA every 3 hours) were just that I

was super wired-and-tired -- couldn't sleep much -- but felt no

mercury (brain-fog) symptoms. I guess I'll try round two at only 3

mg....

Based on reading Amalgam Illness three times, I'm thinking that for

someone like me (who is very poisoned, with poor liver and endocrine

function), it might be best to do only the minimum 2-month stint on

DMSA (since I probably got only minimal additional exposure during

amalgam removal) at whatever low dose, and then move to ALA at the

lowest dose (3 mg), regardless of whether I've made " progress " on

DMSA, since the dysfunctional liver and glands (that may affect

tolerance to chelation) may not start to benefit until after some ALA

rounds.