Re: Re: Could we just be moving metals around?

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila,

Many people in this group, including myself, have had urine tests with and

without DMSA chelation. I did not pass any mercury when I was not chelating and

passed amounts above the reference levels when I was chelating.

I have heard more detailed but similar results from many others on this board.

If your doctor doubts that DMSA chelates mercury, a urine test would be the

quick and easy way to confirm what is well known about DMSA (i.e., that it

increases mercury excretion in urine).

Good luck,

Dave

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Now that you mention it I do recall your post about the negative result on your

excretion test. After hearing about this I asked people to post some tests

from different times during their chelation to try to get a sense of how much

they were excreting and when. I think it is quite possible that if you had no

extracellular mercury (from prolonged DMSA chelation, for example), you might

excrete nothing with DMSA only, assuming it does not chelate intracellular

mercury.

In my case, for example, I was completely well for 4 weeks after getting up to

25mg with DMSA. I could bike 30 miles, had no symptoms, no side effects from

chelation. I did one round with ALA at 3mg and I have been sick for a month.

Every subsequent round of DMSA had major side effects, even without the ALA. I

interpret this as suggesting I had completely cleared out my extracellular

mercury with DMSA, but that adding in ALA started moving stuff around in a way

which lasted weeks.

Detailed confirmation of this hypothesis can be seen in a specific case comes

from someone who posted in response to my previous appeal for information from

people on this subject. These urine results were posted June 12th by

beigetable@...:

2/6/05 Prior to chelation, months after final amalgam out:

0.8/0.9

4/7/05 After 5 rounds of DMPS, on 10 mg DMPS every 3 hrs:

0.5/0.6

7/5/05 After 10 rounds of DMPS, on 20 mg DMPS every 3 hrs:

below detection limit

8/16/05 After 14 rounds of chelation, on 20 mg DMPS + 10 mg ALA every

3 hrs; first

extended use of ALA:

1.3/1.7

10/3/05 After 20 rounds of chelation, on 50 mg DMPS + 50 mg ALA every

3 hrs:

1.2/1.7

Notice how mercury is below the detectable limit after prolonged DMSA chelation

until ALA is added, at which point it is higher than at any other point. This

shows that you could have DMSA chelation with no redistribution and no

excretion, assuming that there was intracellular mercury which was not being

chelated.

If you and others have doubts about this, I think the way to clear them up would

be to get more data from more urine tests at different times. Certainly the

dynamics of chelation could be different for different people, and maybe it is

important for those people to figure out who they are. Right now my chelation

is following a path similar to that of the person above, judging from my

symptoms.

I would be eager to see results from anyone else who has taken multiple urine

tests during their chelation and can correlate to what they were taking.

Good luck,

Dave

> >

> > Hi Sheila,

> >

> > Many people in this group, including myself, have had

> urine tests

> with and without DMSA chelation. I did not pass any

> mercury when I

> was not chelating and passed amounts above the reference

> levels when I

> was chelating.

> >

> > I have heard more detailed but similar results from

> many others on

> this board. If your doctor doubts that DMSA chelates

> mercury, a urine

> test would be the quick and easy way to confirm what is

> well known

> about DMSA (i.e., that it increases mercury excretion in

> urine).

> >

> > Good luck,

> >

> > Dave

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi beigetable,

Thanks for the new data - by the way, what round are you on now? I noticed most

of your earlier tests were from three years ago. I would like to think I will

have all this stuff out of my system by three years from now!

Thanks,

Dave

[Guest guest]

In frequent-dose-chelation seashell_555 wrote:

It is not just

> what the chelators are able to take out of storage , it is also

> the abililty of our organs like the liver and kidneys to take

> these metals out of our bodies.

-----------------------

This is the part I have a hard time understanding. Obviously some of

us do not excrete metals well. How exactly do chelators help excrete

mercury out of the body better? I know chelators mobilize mercury and

ala crosses the blood brain barrier. But if our bodies do not excrete

metals well, wouldn't chelation just clog up our kidneys and liver

even more? I mean they don't " fix " our ability to excrete metals,

right? Obviously there's a piece I'm missing here...

vAl

------------------------

Hi Val,

I doubt I'll be able to explain this, and hopefully and/or Andy will

comment, and I think if you searched archives you could probably find some posts

where Andy explains this.

I believe when people are using low enough doses, what they can handle

individually, then this doesn' put too much extra strain on the liver and

kidneys. It's possible that when people go too high, then they are starting to

strain them. And Andy does recommend lots of liver support. So proper support

is probably a crucial factor in this. I believe he has said that the liver is

one of the target organs for mercury accumulation.

There may be mercury stored in your liver and kidneys, and the chelators will

help to get it out, so they will in turn start to function better. So to answer

your question above, do chelators " fix " our ability to excrete metals, I would

say yes, or at least to some degree. It won't change our genetic makeup, so if

you have the APO-E genes that make you a poor excretor, then that won't change.

But I do recall reading here, from and probably Andy, that mercury

interferes with your detox pathways, so this makes you accumulate other metals,

that otherwise, your body would probably handle just fine. And that once you

chelate the mercury out, then these detox pathways will begin to work properly

again, and these other metals will be excreted and come down in your hair test.

But I think it is us genetically poor excretors that are the most vulnerable

to mercury poisoning, and thus we need the help of the chelators to get the

mercury out of our bodies. And we may have poor liver function, but that is

probably caused by the mercury, so chelation is necessary to help remove it from

the liver, so it can start to function better. And liver support supplements

are important for this also. And I don't recall Andy being too concerned about

the kidneys in most cases, at the low dosages that we use.

Jay has lots of posts by Andy here about liver support, that may help answer

your question?--------Jackie

http://onibasu.com/wiki/Liver_support

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/23732.html

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/70901.html

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/37187.html

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/91840.html

So after reading some of these again, it stresses how important the liver

support supplements are to be taking, especially during

chelation.---------Jackie

[Guest guest]

Val, here is another post by Andy that might help explain things. Spend some

time at the onibasu/wiki, that's where I found these.---------Jackie

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/802.html

In frequent-dose-chelation Jackie wrote:

In frequent-dose-chelation seashell_555 wrote:

It is not just

> what the chelators are able to take out of storage , it is also

> the abililty of our organs like the liver and kidneys to take

> these metals out of our bodies.

-----------------------

This is the part I have a hard time understanding. Obviously some of

us do not excrete metals well. How exactly do chelators help excrete

mercury out of the body better? I know chelators mobilize mercury and

ala crosses the blood brain barrier. But if our bodies do not excrete

metals well, wouldn't chelation just clog up our kidneys and liver

even more? I mean they don't " fix " our ability to excrete metals,

right? Obviously there's a piece I'm missing here...

vAl

------------------------

<snip>

Jay has lots of posts by Andy here about liver support, that may help answer

your question?--------Jackie

http://onibasu.com/wiki/Liver_support

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/23732.html

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/70901.html

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/37187.html

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/91840.html

So after reading some of these again, it stresses how important the liver

support supplements are to be taking, especially during

chelation.---------Jackie