Re: Adrenal support and chelation

[Guest guest]

> Do others here who are on adrenal support, increase the support when

> you chelate? I take quite a lot already but if I need to take more

so

> be it.

Yes.

I can feel the increased adrenal stress on a round so I dose

accordingly. I also take doses at night which I don't do off a round.

Jay

[Guest guest]

It sadly was a huge mistake . This is not part of Andy's

> protocol. We would hate you hurting yourself and then think it is

the

> protocol that doesn't work. It sure would have affected your

adrenals , and

> not in a good way.

That was actually my guess, based on my symptoms, and what I read

somewhere about stopping a round if your blood levels of the chelator

drop. Like mine would have done with the 6mg doses. I'll remember

that from now on.

> KAI ======Please read TK's General Rules on Chelating before you

start a

> new round and follow it carefully when you do start.

I've tried to access this in the files and I'm being told that the

document is unavailable. I think I'm OK with the basics though. I

will make my rounds last at least 3 days and 2 nights, unless I

accidentally miss a dose or something. I will take DMSA every 4 hours

around the clock, starting with 6mg doses as you suggest. I will do a

few rounds before trying to increase the dose.

Mainly what I'm interested in is whether I get any positive effects

from chelating. It's possible that adrenals and thyroid, along with

hormone imbalances, are themselves the root causes of my problems. I

wish I had more convincing evidence about mercury one way or the

other.

I used to be fine while chelating, and I know it works for a lot of

people, so no worries there -- just whether it's actually the

appropriate course for me to take.

Thanks again for your help Kai,

.

[Guest guest]

Ok last obsessing email I say all of this in light heartedness

seriousness... not trying to be disagreeable or condescending in your

previous protocols

FWIW Bad Mojo protocols

please keep in mind, its been my experience in suffering through 5-10

years of deteriorating health (like probably every one else on this

forum) that there is no other protocol that works other than AI-Andy

Cutler to not only chelate mercury but I mean my god, AI addresses

so many interrelated treatments that quite literally blows everyone

else off the map.

I am saying this not in theory but in practical $$$$ and time spent,

every site from curezone, to Mercola and his moronic edta/dmps/iV's

and cilantro to dopey klinghardt and his cilantro to nutritionists

that have probably sourced their kids college education selling me

bad things(garlic, sulphur ALA) and just general snake oil

I digress but say this in relation to the algin, I did a little search

and it is seaweed based or kelp and kelp can cause overreactive

thyroid as its the iodine I believe...AND AI is one of the few (and

correct) I believe sources that says too much thyroid support with

low adrenals can crash your adrenals...sooo I would think a lot of

thyroid support right now may be hurting your adrenals

for example Armour is I believe thryoid supportive and you the

individual are always the best judge of what is helping/huring

you..but again my understanding (and I am very new to all of this was

well) is that higher doses to help thyroid could be hurting adrenals..

others including moderators would know more on this and the proper

treatment balancing thats required for adrenal/thyroid. I just know

from personal experience I did not do any thyroid treatment for 6

months after starting chelation and I did react quite horribly to kelp

in month 2 of chelation and dropped it after one pill

However in just 2 months on temp syndrome protocol (May-June)

for thyroid (see www.wtsmed.com)...both my thyroid (via body temp of

98.60) and adrenals are improving

I only suggested dmps as if you go back and look at a lot of posts,

dmps seems to give people less problems and Andy Cutler has said he

would recommend it over dmsa...BUT if you felt Ok at some point on

dmsa and noticed an improvement, I am only guessing that dmsa is

helping you to chelate... and its as you have been saying, your

adrenals that are stressed

just be careful with these hormone dr's; most couldn't find their

butt with both hands and the last thing you want to end up with is

another bad protocol...bad diagnosis or both...I have found all these

dr's are one trick ponies..they got an agenda of something that they

think worked once so thats the pills they push..its not very emperical

and they certainly do not have the time or brain/curing power in a 15

minute appt to properly assess our many problems

ok I am off the soap box

>

> Hi ,

>

> I'm not honestly sure what Algin is made of. It's sold at the other

> mercury forum I belong to and a lot of people there use it. I trust

> them to know about its contents. I never noticed it doing anything

> for me one way or the other; they claim that it helps absorb

> mercury in the gut so that it doesn't get re-absorbed by the body

> there.

>

> I got my adrenals optimised about 6 weeks ago, with the medrol.

> Ramping up on Armour has been a little hard on them but tolerable;

> apparently many people doing this need to take more HC during the

> process, and then when they optimise their thyroid hormones they

> find their cortisol needs drop off again. What you saw of me here

> was a sudden strain on my adrenals with the DMSA.

> As far as hormones go, I know I'm low in DHEA. I tried progesterone

> cream for 2 months without results either way. At the moment I am

> waiting for my appointment with an endocrinologist next week

> because if I'm going to supplement hormones, I'd like a doctor's

> support, and I'd like proper tests. I may be doing all these other

> things on my own but I'll take the help when I can get it.

>

> I'm not sure if I want to try DMPS. I think I'd like to stick with

> the DMSA. That comes from the US too, via my parents, who can send

> me a box that doesn't get caught in customs (it's cheaper from

> there). Presumably DMPS is hard on the adrenals too -- presumably

> all these chelators are. I know ALA was.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> However in just 2 months on temp syndrome protocol (May-June)

> for thyroid (see www.wtsmed.com)...both my thyroid (via body temp of

> 98.60) and adrenals are improving

-----------

I'm thinking of trying this protocal myself. I've read about

it and some think it's very hard to keep up with...but if it works its

worth it, right?

How difficult was it to find a doc to work with you? I have an

appt with an endo in a couple of weeks and I'm going to print out a

research study supporting s. One more question, what kind of

symptom improvement have you experienced? I would love more energy

and less pain.

Thanks,

Val

[Guest guest]

Val

I only tried this after being on adrenal support for 6-8 months as

per AI

I think it was a great help see below

well s theory is that your body needs temps (98.60) to help

with burning toxins and digesting and absorbing nutrients. He

believes in using T3 (liothyronine) to balance the thyroid as

evidenced by increased temps

it is not that hard for people that are on AI and have to take 100's

of pills a day to master the protocol

you capture your temp its called by increasing 7.50 mcgs (2x) a day

of T3. You take the T3 dosage 12 hrs apart (ie 7 am/7 pm) along with

a herbal product (selenium and other components)

you start at 7.50 mcgs of T3 and I believe stay on that level of

dosage for 2 days..every 2 days if your temps have not on average

reached 98.60 you increase another 7.50 mcgs..so you end up slpitting

capsules and ordering capsule sizes that will fit where you are at on

the dosages..so it does get a little crazy with monitoring what you

will need for the next two weeks

I finally captured my temp at I believe it was 82.50 mcgs. Also once

you capture it then you down dose at the same level of 7.50 mcgs evry

two days. The goal is to get back to 7.50 mcgs and then ZERO mcgs

(all the time keepng your temps at 98.60) for two days and then you

strat the steeple chase again

For example you would go from 82.50 to 75.0 mcgs for two days and

then keep going down UNLESS your temps did not hold at 98.60 . If

they did not hold (ie they dropped) then you have to up dose again...

capture the temps and then start back down

so you can see it takes some time and you have to keep a log to

remember what the heck you are doing

so my first temperature capture took about 6 weeks of up and down

dosing till i got back to zero (round one).

The next two temperature capturing excercises only took less than a

week each

so overall it took about 2 months for me to balance my temps

my digestion was better right awy with T3; and my head became

clearer and energy improvement after completion. I think I was doing

this right in the middle of the time i decided to have my root canal

out which in retrospect was PPP (PI$$ poor planning). Of course it

was at month 5-50 to 7.50 of chelation regiment so it could have also

helped having more mercury being dumped.

so now i keep some t3 on hand on hand if for instance my temps drop

like they did when it was 100 degree heat. I can right my temps and

my thyroid in usually one day

MY NP recommended it BUT i think the site has a referral network

I have a handout from my doctor if you would like me to email it to

you. It will help

>

> I'm thinking of trying this protocal myself. I've read

> about it and some think it's very hard to keep up with...but if it

> works its worth it, right?

>

> How difficult was it to find a doc to work with you? I have an

> appt with an endo in a couple of weeks and I'm going to print out a

> research study supporting s. One more question, what kind of

> symptom improvement have you experienced? I would love more energy

> and less pain.

>

> Thanks,

> Val

>

[Guest guest]

---

I had to start with 6mgs of DMSA on a 3 hourly basis when I began

chelation as my adrenals couldn't cope despite a hefty daily dose of

prednisolone.

I also found that I had to " stress dose " or increase my prednisolone

temporarily when I was chelating. Doing this for 3 days with a break

of a week or so inbetween worked.

When you have Addisons or weak adrenals anything that stresses you

excessivly should be acompanied with extra hydrocortisone (or

prednisolone if you take it)as in normal healthy people that's what

the adrenals would naturally.As chelation is a stressor it makes sense

to have to increase your dose slightly.

Hope this helps

In frequent-dose-chelation , " " wrote:

>

>

> >

> >

> > Do I read correct that you started your 3 day round with 12,5 mg

> DMSA doses

> > and later in the same round reduced your dose to 6 mg DMSA ?

> > Did you take your dose every 4 hours and none later ?

> > Did you finish the 3 days ?

> > Kai

>

>

> Hello Kai,

>

> Yes I messed this one up. I dose every 4 hours with DMSA. Managed

> this until 10pm on day 2, then at that point decided I'd hammered my

> adrenals enough. The next 2 doses I took were 6mg. This morning I

> felt like I'd been hit by a train. I think switching dosages down in

> the middle of a round was a mistake. I've been reading links and old

> posts by Andy here and I think that is what he would say. So I guess

> I only managed about half a round this time. I'm feeling OK this

> afternoon at least, but then I also increased my afternoon steroid

> dose a little because my cortisol has been getting low in the

> evenings. Seems to have been a good move.

>

> I am going to wait 3 days and then try again, properly. And see how I

> feel after the round. I'm worried about my adrenals but I need to

> find out first if I'm getting benefits from chelation.

>

> Many thanks,

> .

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Forgive my ignorance but would you treat adrenal fatigue the

> same way as treating for too much adrenaline being produced, is

this

> the same thing?

> > Also the same question for thyroid? 

> > Kenny

>

>

> Adrenal fatigue means the body is not producing enough cortisol. I

> had a saliva test done and it showed that I was at a point where I

> needed to take hydrocortisone because other gentler supplements

> didn't, and wouldn't, work for me. I am told that when the body is

> low on cortisol, it produces too much adrenaline. I actually seem

to

> feel better when I'm producing more adrenaline, it had been

happening

> for quite a while. You can get hooked on adrenaline.

>

> Not sure what you are asking about thyroid. I am taking Armour for

> hypothyroidism. Hperthyroidism is when there are too many thyroid

> hormones in your bloodstream. I don't know much about that because

> most of the people I talk to are hypo to some degree.

>

> HTH,

> .

>Thank you for your reply

The reason I asked this question is because my son's Na/Mg on his 1st

(pre supplements) hair test (181) was 42:1 and his K/Ca was 1.84.

We are waiting for the results of a TSH, free T4 and T3 blood test

which I will post here shortly and ask for help interpreting.

Kenny

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I don't disagree with you anywhere. I like Dr. Mercola's site but I'm

surprised at his chelation protocol, it looks like a recipe for

disaster. I've only ever used the Cutler protocol and I can see that

people are getting better from using it. It makes clear sense to me

and it's simple.

Thanks for looking up the Algin. I haven't used it since I stopped

chelating several months back and from what's been said here, I have

no desire to start using it again. If it was helping my thyroid

though, there wasn't much evidence of it, in exchange for any damage

it may have done to my adrenals.

I'm following adivice on the thyroid/adrenals list and am also seeing

a private specialist insofar as adrenal support and thyroid are

concerned. They know how to balance these things. It's no good going

around with hypo symptoms, that stresses the adrenals as well, and I

found that the HC actually made me more hypo. I won't go taking silly

amounts of Armour but at the moment I'm on a fairly low dose still

and I'm going to need to increase it a little more at least. The

autumn is also on its way and I get awful SAD, which has left me in

fear of that time of year. SAD appears to be related to low thyroid

function so I want to pursue that avenue.

About the endocrinologist . . . I lost my faith in most doctors a

long time ago, and now take responsibility for my own health. What I

want from the endo is tests, and prescriptions for hormones which are

deficient. I won't accept any other drugs from him/her. Hopefully

this isn't too much to ask. I would rather not guess if I don't have

to where hormones are concerned, and it would also help to get at

least something on the NHS, seeing as how I'm already paying for

supplements, adrenal and thyroid meds, and chelators.

Thanks again for your post, and best wishes -- it sounds like you've

really done your homework, and I'm sure you will reap the rewards.

.

[Guest guest]

> I had to start with 6mgs of DMSA on a 3 hourly basis when I began

> chelation as my adrenals couldn't cope despite a hefty daily dose of

> prednisolone.

>

> I also found that I had to " stress dose " or increase my prednisolone

> temporarily when I was chelating. Doing this for 3 days with a break

> of a week or so inbetween worked.

>

> When you have Addisons or weak adrenals anything that stresses you

> excessivly should be acompanied with extra hydrocortisone (or

> prednisolone if you take it)as in normal healthy people that's what

> the adrenals would naturally.As chelation is a stressor it makes

sense

> to have to increase your dose slightly.

>

> Hope this helps

>

>

Yes it does , thank you. I've shied away from stress dosing my

medrol (I've been using HC instead) because higher amounts make me

feel sleepy and brain dead -- but that's only when I take more than

my system needs. My system will need more when I chelate. I'm not

sure how much more though. Can I ask what dose of pred you are on,

and how much stress dosing you do when you chelate? That might give

me a good ballpark figure to aim for myself.

Thanks,

.

[Guest guest]

>

> I am on a steroid for weak adrenals. I've decided to chelate again

> after a 5-month break and am starting at 12.5mg doses of DMSA. It is

> definitely straining my adrenals though.

>

> Do others here who are on adrenal support, increase the support when

> you chelate?

When I first started chelating it felt like I needed to stress dose on

the day after a chelation round. It turned out that I was trying to

chelate on a dose that was too high for me. When I decreased the

chelator dose I was able to chelate without stress dosing.

I DO have to stress dose for infections, and psychological/emotional

stress. I find that emotional stress takes higher doses than physical

stress.

J

I take quite a lot already but if I need to take more so

> be it.

>

> Many thanks,

> .

>

[Guest guest]

" I DO have to stress dose for infections, and psychological/emotional

stress. I find that emotional stress takes higher doses than physical

stress. "

Hello ,

I have just recently found out that my dad has brain cancer. Very

sad and of course very stressful. Today I am just coming off a round.

I wish I had done a dose of hydrocortisone this morning because I am

feeling buffetted by adrenal insufficiency.

Prior to chelation when I was supplementing 1-2 mg daily for adrenal

inadequacy and flip flopped cortisol response (low AM, high PM) i was

taking just one the low dose of HC in the AM. Would you mind sharing

the dose amount and schedule you use after a round during times of

stress?

I almost always experience emotional lability the day after ending a

round and with everything going on around my Dad's illness I'm feeling

like no amount of deep breathing is going to help today.

Doug

[Guest guest]

In frequent-dose-chelation nhdougsimmons wrote:

---- wrote:

" I DO have to stress dose for infections, and psychological/emotional

stress. I find that emotional stress takes higher doses than physical

stress. "

Hello ,

I have just recently found out that my dad has brain cancer. Very

sad and of course very stressful.

---------Hi Doug, not here, and I am so sorry to hear about your dad.

I'm not sure when will see your message, and since I have had some

experience with similar emotional stresses during this time of being toxic and

trying to chelate, and since helped me through these, I'll share what my

experiences were. And I agree with her, that the emotional stresses take a much

larger toll on the adrenals than others.--------Jackie

Today I am just coming off a round.

I wish I had done a dose of hydrocortisone this morning because I am

feeling buffetted by adrenal insufficiency.

Prior to chelation when I was supplementing 1-2 mg daily for adrenal

inadequacy and flip flopped cortisol response (low AM, high PM) i was

taking just one the low dose of HC in the AM. Would you mind sharing

the dose amount and schedule you use after a round during times of

stress?

---------Just so I have this straight, you are taking only 1-2 mg of HC a day?

Since I know pretty well, I will tell you that her and I both take much

more than that on a regular day, but her and I have pretty beat up adrenals, and

our output is low all day, without supplementing it. And I think hers are

probably worse than mine, but things keep happening in my life to keep mine

down!

Anyway, I believe probably takes at least 20mg a day, and maybe more, I

haven't asked her recently. When she stress doses, I believe she doubles or

triples it, depending on the severity of the situation. Hopefully she'll

correct me if I'm wrong, and won't mind me sharing this.

I take 20mg a day on a regular basis, and will do 30mg (an extra 10) when I

feel I need it. I have had trouble with it pushing up my blood sugar, so I have

to be careful about not taking too much. But sometimes a round of chelation

makes me feel like I need a little extra, and just whatever is going on in my

life.

And to answer your question, I usually take it in 2 or 3 doses, first thing in

the morning, noonish, and afternoon.

Now I'll tell my experience with stress-dosing last fall when my mom was

dying. (So yes I feel for you Doug, and I understand the situation you're in.

Trying to deal with your Dad's illness and get yourself through it too.) So

like I said, I normally take 20mg/day of HC, but when it was apparent that my

mom's last few weeks were here last August, I started stress dosing at 40mg/day,

and I actually functioned very well during this time by doing this. So I stayed

at this dose for a number of weeks, but then more stressors came following my

mom's funeral, and then I went to 60mg/day, and then I got very sick and had to

function for some committments for my kids, and I went as high as 80mg/day for a

short time.

Now, the 40mg/day seemed fine and necessary, but as I pushed it higher and

stayed on these high doses for a long time, maybe more than 2 months?, I got

myself in trouble, because it pushed my blood sugar leves up, near diabetic. So

that is one thing I would like to caution people about. And I think if the

stressors wouldn't have continued, and I would have slowly backed off from 40mg,

I would have been alright. But the extra HC kept me going, and I sort of abused

it, and that is my own fault, because I did this without consulting , who

had prescribed it for me.

Anyway, stress dosing can help alot, but just be careful not to abuse it and

do it for too long. And possibly, if you don't have blood sugar issues, it may

not be as big of a problem as it was for me. So just be

careful.----------Jackie

I almost always experience emotional lability the day after ending a

round and with everything going on around my Dad's illness I'm feeling

like no amount of deep breathing is going to help today.

---------Like I said, I feel for you and I really understand. The days you

are hit hardest with the emotional stuff might be when you really need some

stress dosing. And in those cases, later in the day is probably ok too. There

were discussions awhile back where people took HC at night to help them sleep.

So when we need it, we need it. So in your situation, I think it would be fine

to try some stress dosing, and see if it helps.

I know this is a really rough time for you, but please hang in there, and know

that we are here for you I hope the best for you and your

dad.--------Jackie

Doug