Guest guest Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 Hi ! (...) > I think it's more like mercury interferes with the production of > neutrophils, and neutrophils are necessary to defend the body from > bacteria and yeast. The bacteria in the normal flora seem to be more > susceptible to mercury, and yeast somewhat more resistant, and yeast > have a tendency to take over when bacteria are killed off. That makes sense. However, I insist I really don't feel immuno-depressed so if you are right I should suppose that the origin of the problem is the lack of bacteria competing with yeast. > > > > > > I find this a little bit strange. In many other periods of my life my > > immune system have been depressed. Now I know this was due to mercury > > poisoning. However, since I started taking supplements, my immune > > system improved a lot and right now I don't feel like immuno-depressed > > at all... but for yeast! > > > > > > What symptoms do you have that you think are yeast related? > First it comes a nasty gas problem, not very compatible with social life. Then appears an incredible tiredness. I think this tiredness is markedly different from the tiredness I have from redistribution... it is difficult to explain but it has a very different " flavor " . Together with the tiredness, there is certain relentlessness which makes me unable to sleep, even for the whole night long. Using nystatin, for example, the symptoms decay and I feel well pretty soon. If I increase the antifungals when gas starts, I manage to avoid the other even less unpleasant symptoms. > > > > > It is weird that mercury impairs neutrophils ability to kill yeast but > > *not other things*. > > > > I don't think that this was implied. Mercury toxic people tend to > complain more about yeast than other things, neutrophil numbers can be > low, and neutrophils are needed for defense. > Yes , but I think that if my neutrophils were low I should suffer viral or bacterial infections too, which is not the case. In fact, now I am chelating (25 mg of ALA /2 hours, today is my 9th day of this round) taking measures against candida I feel well, very well indeed. I know this is just a one-case report. > > > > So it comes to my mind the possibility that > > neutrophils are not killing yeast because they are programmed to do so > > in the presence of mercury. > > > > The rationale of this is that candida are capable of methylate > > mercury. > > > This is another one of those things where the literature gets > misinterpreted. > > Yeast doesn't methylate mercury in the human body to an extent that > would be significant. > > Post from Andy: > > http://onibasu.com/archives/am/73181.html > (read down part way through, Andy - " Since mammals don't methylate > mercury AT ALL, and > intestinal yeast does not do so to a clinically siginificant extent, > you need to chelate.... " > > Thank you for pointing to this posting. If he is right (as is probably the case), then it would be clear that yeast overgrowth is not something that has evolved to protect us from mercury poisoning. > > In the paper > > " Transformations of inorganic mercury by Candida albicans and > > Saccharomyces cerevisiae " , by > > S Yannai, I Berdicevsky, and L Duek > > Appl Environ Microbiol. 1991 January; 57(1): 245–247. > > it is shown how candida is in fact very efficient doing that. > > > > One really needs to look at the paper and evaluate it. Were they > experimenting in culture? Where the conditions relevant to conditions > found in the human body? How large were the amounts of substrate used > and how small were the products? > I have uploaded a copy of the paper so you can read it at http://miquelacion.googlepages.com/YannaiBerdicevskyDuek1991.pdf. You are right, the paper is on environmental science and so the growing conditions probably are not the same that those at human guts. In particular, they were grown in absence of oxygen since the researchers were interested in what happens in deep water bodies. They found that candida albicans is more resistant to Hg and methylates more Hg than the other species to which they compared. In fact, I understand that the capability of candida of methylate mercury is, at least in part, what makes it more resistant to Hg. This is also consistent with the idea that Hg kills other intestinal flora and the candida profit from this to overgrowth. I am also a puzzled by what is said in the paper about organic mercury found in the media and that found in the traps. I understand that the found in the traps is what is found inside the yeast cells, but I am not sure about it. The authors say they find more in the media than in the traps, but what I see in figure 2 is just the oher way around. ?? > > > > > Methylmercury is very dangerous for us, because it is readily > > absorbed. But maybe the methylmercury remains inside the candida and > > can be excreted thereafter together with the candida itself. This is > > an important point of which I am not really sure. > > > > > It's not something to be concerned about because it's not happening to > any significant extent. I would be interested in reading the papers where this has been published. Do you know the references? > > > > > So it may be the case that when mercury is bouncing around, > > neutrophils stop killing yeast by a natural-selection mechanism > > designed to protect us from the poisoning. > > > > > No, mercury is interfering with our ability to produce neutrophils. > Mercury is also killing off our normal flora. Candida (and other > yeast, if it is a problem) is just an opportunist taking advantage of > the situation. > > > > > > > I am not advocating not to deal energically with the yeast problem. I > > think chelation is a very different situation from the probably > > short-term exposition > > for which the allowance to proliferate of yeast perhaps evolved. > > >If > > yeast proliferate enough, it can prevent any further chelation. > > > It would take a lot of yeast to prevent chelation. > Well, just the extreme tiredness I get from candida overgrowth could be a reason to stop chelation very often to recover. I think that candida can also interfere with the absorption of what you are taking, isn't it true? > > > > > Moreover, its side-effects are extremely debilitating. > > > > What side effects are you meaning? They were explained above. > > Often yeast gets blamed for more than it's share of problems. > > > > > It is just that > > I would like to understand why is it happening this yeast problem to > > so many of us. > > > > > see above. > > And do note that many (chelating) people don't have a yeast problem. > > > > > If this theory is right, it will also explain why we will only get rid > > of yeast after enough chelation has been done and why we must > > constantly fight yeast along chelation. > > > > It would also make sense not to take products that improve neutrophils > > performance to solve the yeast problem. In fact, not killing yeast > > they are performing very well according to its nature. It would make > > more sense to take antifungals (natural or Rx) and to try to eat > > things that does not make them to proliferate too easily. > > > > What makes the most sense to me is to take lots of probiotics to > displace the yeast and build up populations of beneficial organisms. > The beneficial organisms will compete with the yeast once established. > It also makes sense to limit sugar and starch, modify diet so that > nutrients are readily absorbed and aren't hanging around to feed the > yeast, and to make the diet friendly for the beneficial organisms. > > Taking products to improve neutrophils makes sense. > > Antifungals are down lower on my list because they will kill off the > normal flora too, which is not what a person wants. I am already taking probiotics (VSL3), but I don't find them very effective. Nevertheless, I will continue using it because, as you said, it seems to be a good idea. Maybe one will see the effects more in the long term. It would be interesting to take something that kills yeast but not bacteria. I think that nystatin was one of those things. As Jada pointed out, maybe garlic is not a good idea due to its antibacterial properties. I wonder if GSE does have this unwanted antibacterial properties. (...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 > > Hi ! > > (...) > > > I think it's more like mercury interferes with the production of > > neutrophils, and neutrophils are necessary to defend the body from > > bacteria and yeast. The bacteria in the normal flora seem to be more > > susceptible to mercury, and yeast somewhat more resistant, and yeast > > have a tendency to take over when bacteria are killed off. > > That makes sense. However, I insist I really don't feel immuno-depressed > so if you are right I should suppose that the origin of the problem is > the lack of bacteria competing with yeast. > That's what I think. <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > What symptoms do you have that you think are yeast related? > > > > First it comes a nasty gas problem, This is from anaerobic fermentation of carbohydrates. One thing to try is to give them less carbohydrate (sugar and starch) to use for fermentation. You might notice a big difference from a diet of just meat and vegetables for a while. Or, there is the SCD which does contain readily absorbed CHO. Yeast aren't the only things that can ferment anaerobically, bacteria can too. What indicates yeast to me is the positive response you report to Nystatin. Bacteria can also be involved. not very compatible with social > life. Then appears an incredible tiredness. I think this tiredness is > markedly different from the tiredness I have from redistribution... it > is difficult to explain but it has a very different " flavor " . Together > with the tiredness, there is certain relentlessness which makes me > unable to sleep, even for the whole night long. > I suppose the fatigue could come from the other by products of the anaerobic fermentation. > Using nystatin, for example, the symptoms decay and I feel well pretty > soon. If I increase the antifungals when gas starts, I manage to avoid > the other even less unpleasant symptoms. > ok, the Nystatin shows that there is yeast involvement. A diet to reduce carbohydrate would be worth trying. > > > > > > > > > > > It is weird that mercury impairs neutrophils ability to kill yeast > but > > > *not other things*. > > > > > > > > I don't think that this was implied. Mercury toxic people tend to > > complain more about yeast than other things, neutrophil numbers can be > > low, and neutrophils are needed for defense. > > > > Yes , but I think that if my neutrophils were low I should suffer > viral or bacterial infections too, which is not the case. In fact, now I > am chelating (25 mg of ALA /2 hours, today is my 9th day of this round) > taking measures against candida I feel well, very well indeed. I know > this is just a one-case report. > There are lots of factors involved with various things. When Candida is a problem, Andy suggests taking things to boost neutrophils. I suppose that could be looked at as one angle, and perhaps there are other angles to investigate. The other thing is that there are lots of factors involved in immunity, neutrophils being just one. <snip> > > > > It is just that > > > I would like to understand why is it happening this yeast problem to > > > so many of us. > > > I think that the major reason must be that the moving mercury kills off many of our beneficial organisms leaving a niche that yeast can move into. > > > > What makes the most sense to me is to take lots of probiotics to > > displace the yeast and build up populations of beneficial organisms. > > The beneficial organisms will compete with the yeast once established. > > It also makes sense to limit sugar and starch, modify diet so that > > nutrients are readily absorbed and aren't hanging around to feed the > > yeast, and to make the diet friendly for the beneficial organisms. > > > > Taking products to improve neutrophils makes sense. > > > > Antifungals are down lower on my list because they will kill off the > > normal flora too, which is not what a person wants. > > I am already taking probiotics (VSL3), but I don't find them very > effective. Nevertheless, I will continue using it because, as you said, > it seems to be a good idea. Maybe one will see the effects more in the > long term. > I also have been taking probiotics. Recent testing showed that all of my normal flora numbers are low. I have increased the numbers and varieties of probiotics. > It would be interesting to take something that kills yeast but not > bacteria. I think that nystatin was one of those things. As Jada pointed > out, maybe garlic is not a good idea due to its antibacterial > properties. I wonder if GSE does have this unwanted antibacterial > properties. > GSE is a broad range antimicrobial. It kills bacteria and yeast. > (...) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2008 Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 >> It would be interesting to take something that kills yeast but not >> bacteria. I think that nystatin was one of those things. As Jada pointed >> out, maybe garlic is not a good idea due to its antibacterial >> properties. I wonder if GSE does have this unwanted antibacterial >> properties. Oregano oil is what we use down here. It has less die-off effects than the others (though we don't know why). The protocol for chronicCandida is 1 capsule 3 times a day for 20 days. (Solgar Wild Oregano) Then a 10 day break. The repeat this cycle x 4 times. Make diet changes first if you are worried about die off, and you can proceed more slowly if you wish. The reason for the 10 day break is that the thymol (along with phenol I believe) that comes with it, builds up in your live and causes problems. So you need the break. You can take GSE during the break if you need. Always couple with a good probiotic. DeanSA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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