Re: relapse

[Guest guest]

>

> I am on my 30th round & was seeing some progress until the last

couple

> of weeks & seem to be nose-diving now - pretty much incapacitated.

> Major symptoms returning are fibro, fatigue, weakness, headaches,

> nausea, stomach pain. I have been on 12.5 mg DMSA/ALA -I tried

> increasing ALA by 6 mg last round, but felt so awful, mostly head

> symptoms that I went back to 12.5.

TK--- how do you do on just DMSA ?

I take all the supplements Andy

> recommends plus 15-20mg HC, ACE, T3 and hormones. I am trying to

remedy

> by Alka Seltzer gold, ginger tea, minimal aspirin. Is this normal?

Any

> suggestions?

TK--- suggestions to try - take longer breaks between or take a

break, reduce dosage, use dmsa only for a longer period until you can

increas it, take chelator/s more frequently 2.5hr - 2 hr - see files

section on chelating suggestions

Should I take a rest from chelation until feeling better

> or is it better to keep on schedule? At 12.5 I feel about the same

on

> chelation as off.

Also, if I can't tolerate an increase in dosages, is

> it possible to stay at the same low dosage for the duration of

> chelation & still " finish the race " or will I at some point stop

any

> progress? Thanks-

>

> Joy

>

[Guest guest]

No, you will not stop making progress if you take smaller doses. In fact,

the decrease in efficiency goes by the square root of the reduction, so

reducing the dose does not decrease effectiveness as much as you might

think. If you cut the dose of chelator in half, according to Andy, you

reduce metal removal by only about 20%.

So you might try cutting your current dose in half and see if it helps. Or

even less. I would try to find a dose at which you feel better, and stick

to it - even if it's much less than the current dose. Chelation is a

long-term process, so it's important to try and feel good during it.

Dean

relapse

I am on my 30th round & was seeing some progress until the last couple

of weeks & seem to be nose-diving now - pretty much incapacitated.

Major symptoms returning are fibro, fatigue, weakness, headaches,

nausea, stomach pain. I have been on 12.5 mg DMSA/ALA -I tried

increasing ALA by 6 mg last round, but felt so awful, mostly head

symptoms that I went back to 12.5. I take all the supplements Andy

recommends plus 15-20mg HC, ACE, T3 and hormones. I am trying to remedy

by Alka Seltzer gold, ginger tea, minimal aspirin. Is this normal? Any

suggestions? Should I take a rest from chelation until feeling better

or is it better to keep on schedule? At 12.5 I feel about the same on

chelation as off. Also, if I can't tolerate an increase in dosages, is

it possible to stay at the same low dosage for the duration of

chelation & still " finish the race " or will I at some point stop any

progress? Thanks-

Joy

[Guest guest]

I have never taken DMSA alone- I get the combo DMSA/ALA from Kirkman

& basically chose that route because I knew that my brain load was a

huge issue. I shall maybe try it though. Thanks

> >

> > I am on my 30th round & was seeing some progress until the last

> couple

> > of weeks & seem to be nose-diving now - pretty much

incapacitated.

> > Major symptoms returning are fibro, fatigue, weakness, headaches,

> > nausea, stomach pain. I have been on 12.5 mg DMSA/ALA -I tried

> > increasing ALA by 6 mg last round, but felt so awful, mostly head

> > symptoms that I went back to 12.5.

>

>

> TK--- how do you do on just DMSA ?

>

>

>

> I take all the supplements Andy

> > recommends plus 15-20mg HC, ACE, T3 and hormones. I am trying to

> remedy

> > by Alka Seltzer gold, ginger tea, minimal aspirin. Is this

normal?

> Any

> > suggestions?

>

>

> TK--- suggestions to try - take longer breaks between or take a

> break, reduce dosage, use dmsa only for a longer period until you

can

> increas it, take chelator/s more frequently 2.5hr - 2 hr - see

files

> section on chelating suggestions

>

>

>

> Should I take a rest from chelation until feeling better

> > or is it better to keep on schedule? At 12.5 I feel about the

same

> on

> > chelation as off.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Also, if I can't tolerate an increase in dosages, is

> > it possible to stay at the same low dosage for the duration of

> > chelation & still " finish the race " or will I at some point stop

> any

> > progress? Thanks-

> >

> > Joy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Joy - below:

Posted by: " joyhealth08 " joyhealth08@... joyhealth08

Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:28 am (PDT)

>I am on my 30th round & was seeing some progress until the last couple

of weeks & seem to be nose-diving now - pretty much incapacitated.

30 weeks? That's what you should expect. See p.52 of Andy's AI. There is an

initial period that feels like improvement, and then a long " stall " period

where things get difficult.

>Major symptoms returning are fibro, fatigue, weakness, headaches,

nausea, stomach pain. I have been on 12.5 mg DMSA/ALA -I tried

increasing ALA by 6 mg last round, but felt so awful, mostly head

symptoms that I went back to 12.5.

Yes. Find one dose that works, and then stick with it for a LONG time.

>I take all the supplements Andy recommends plus 15-20mg HC, ACE, T3 and

hormones. I am trying to remedy by Alka Seltzer gold, ginger tea, minimal

aspirin.

Be careful of aspirin, since it is a salicylate and you may not process this

well.

Fatigue is normal. I find it worse on DMSA and so only use ALA (make sure that

you do not have any exposures in the last 3 months for this). Andy suggests

lots of Mg for FM. You can try that. I had to use the whole electrolyte mix:

http://onibasu.com/archives/fdc/24416.html. I found this also worked for

headaches, since they were related to tension in the back caused by adrenal

fatigue. Stomach pain ... could be the acidic ALA perhaps (take some protein

with each dose). It could be gas (take walks after meals) or GERD (try

sleeping with the torso slightly elevated at an angle, try Betaine HCL at

meals, try aloe vera juice any time or DGL 20 minutes before meals, try

digestive enzymes with meals).

Have you shown us a hair test? We might get some idea if you need adrenal or

thyroid support.

>Is this normal?

It is normal for symptoms to be provoked, and it is normal for you to be in a

down phase now. What you don't want to do is give so much chelator that your

end of round symptoms go on more than 24 hours after round. If they do, then

decrease the dose and/or decrease the _time_ between doses.

>Any suggestions? Should I take a rest from chelation until feeling better or

is it better to keep on schedule?

Do _not_ take a rest now. Now that you are in the " stall period " if you stop,

you will get a lot worse. You need to chelate through it, but keep it

tolerable.

>At 12.5 I feel about the same on chelation as off.

Good. You can stay there or you can increase <<gingerly>>. I use 25mg ALA,

and going to 30mg is a big step.

>Also, if I can't tolerate an increase in dosages, is it possible to stay at

the same low dosage for the duration of chelation & still " finish the race "

Yes, you can keep going at this dose. In time, you will find that symptoms

decrease. For any, there was a point at which things lifted about 8 months in.

For me, it took 12 months.

>or will I at some point stop any progress?

>Thanks-

>Joy

[Guest guest]

Hi Joy, I've had several setbacks along the way.

I've done right around 70 rounds.

I can't exactly say what was what & when, but things that helped me (YMMV):

I had a GI test done and discovered I was intolerant to gluten, had too much bad

bacteria

and not enough good, and waaaay too much gut yeast. Fixed that. Much better.

Thyroid not optimal. Bad experience trying to find the right dose of Armour,

and ended up

switching to thyroid support supplements with no Armour. Better.

Adrenal stress. Need to eat better. More frequently. This is still hard as I

tend to go too

long between meals, and end up feeling poorly. I need to exercise, gently &

regularly. It's

a big mood brightener, but I frequently fall off the wagon.

Sex hormones. For accuracy and meaningful results, IMO, do saliva testing and

not blood.

It's very easy to OD on P or E and feel like pure crap, then it taking months to

get out of

your system, meanwhile it's difficult to sort out what is what. I've held off

on taking

progesterone until I can do an 11 vial saliva sample over the course of a cycle

to see what

is going on. I'm 44 and perimenopausal.

In the meantime, I started taking iodine. Very low doses, and titrating up very

slowly. I

started on 225 mcg and I'm now taking 6 mg per day. I don't understand how or

why, but

it seems that iodine helps correct low progesterone. My symptoms of estrogen

dominance have improved noticably.

I did have a very, very bad month where the MD sent me home with Iodoral and

told me to

experiment with it. I started out at one tablet per day and crashed. Badly.

Super low

thyroid symptoms. I gave up on iodine, until I decided to try what I described

above.

Recently, out of the blue, I started to have joint pain. Hot & burning joints.

Fingers

swollen. Elbows very painful. I'm looking into possible mycoplasma infection

now, and

eventual treatment with low dose pulsing tetracyclines.

I have had slight chest pain at times too, and I've never been able to pin down

an exact

cause. Each time it has happened, it brings me considerable stress. When it's

gone, I

don't think about it. I suspect something to do with cortisol levels.

I've also had some emotional upsets along the way, y'know, Life Happens type of

stuff, and

that is always hard.

It's definitely been 3 steps forward-2 steps back sort of thing. Keep looking

for things

you can investigate and improve on.

Good luck!

[Guest guest]

> Thank you all for your responses. What I'm still confused about is

> whether in his phase I should take a break from chelation? Seems

> there are differing opinions.

Hi Joy,

I would personally lower the dosage until you feel well on round.

There is no point in chelating faster than your body can handle it.

6mg of ALA or even 3mg is not being defeated.

It is being cautious and clever in my opinion.

I have seen serveral people 'brave' ALA out thinking that 'they can't go

lower!'

Their experience never got better till they dropped the ALA dose.

Same goes for DMSA.

Slow = fast with chelation.

DeanSA

[Guest guest]

Hello

2008/6/5 Jada :

> If you have always experienced " head symptoms " then you may need the

> dmsa only for a while. It took me 16 months of dmsa only chelation to

> tolerate 6mg of ala. I got bad crushing headaches. horrible, felt like

> I was in a vice, and mental..totally mental.

i know im sensitive to medications so im considering using the DMSA,

until my brain improves enough to cope with ALA. Dividing the doses

and putting them somewhere i will remember to take them is virtually

impossible at the moment.

Good news is my circulations lots better now. Air conditioning is less

of a problem this year. Breeze still bothers me but lifes like that.

>

--

is

[Guest guest]

Posted by: " joyhealth08 " joyhealth08@... joyhealth08

Thu Jun 5, 2008 8:46 am (PDT)

>Thank you all for your responses. What I'm still confused about is

>whether in his phase I should take a break from chelation? Seems

>there are differing opinions.

TK seems to be advocating taking a couple of weeks, which I don't see any

problem with. I am suggesting to be careful of stopping and starting

chelation, particularly in difficult period, since there is a potential that

whatever processes are started by giving the body a way to eliminate these

toxins, will then be stopped. Andy has the most experience of anyone here, and

he has said that if you stop chelation in this period, then you will get

" really sick " . All I can say, is that this accords with my sense that the body

needs slow gentle consistency. Once you give it something that will help it

heal, then it needs for you to keep it up.

>>>I am on my 30th round & was seeing some progress until the last

>>>couple of weeks & seem to be nose-diving now - pretty much incapacitated.

>>30 weeks?

>....its been about 8 months. I was very gradually improving & then

WHAM - seems like back to square one!

Ok, it doesn't sound like you had the difficult period that usually starts at

the 3-4 month point. Usually, and for me, the initial experience of chelation

can be positive (more energy, typically) but then the exhaustion sets in. For

Andy, that lasted until the 8 month point, and then he described an experience

" like a fever breaking " . For me, it lasted until 12 months, where there was a

sudden lift in the level of exhaustion - I was still very tired, but the

exhausting wasn't as extreme. Perhaps things are just slower with you, I don't

know.

>>Yes. Find one dose that works, and then stick with it for a LONG time.

>.....since I have always used both DMSA & ALA, I'm wondering if I

should try them separately? Which one? At least for the last 8 months

the 12.5 dosage of both seemed to work & I tolerated it OK. My

exposure was long ago as a former dental assistant. I concluded that

the brain exposure was probably primary, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm sure you've got quite a lot in there. If there is disordered mineral

transport, then you probably still have a lot in your body too. You have taken

a reasonable and not too high dose.

I think I would suggest trying them separately, only because you will get some

kind of idea of what kind of symptoms one causes vs. the other, and what brain

vs. body chelation is like. Also, since one is at 4 hrs and one at 3, you will

be able to identify better what is sleep deprivation vs. chelation. In general,

I think it might help you see what is doing what.

Given your level of exposure, I am guessing that you are in the stall period

now, even if it's later than it is for most of us.

>>Have you shown us a hair test? We might get some idea if you need

>>adrenal or thyroid support.

>.....I haven't had a hair test.

I think that would be a good idea. Directlabs.Com for the Doctors' Data " Hair

Elements " test (_not_ the " Toxic Hair Elements " test). Mention the Autism

Mercury list for a discount.

>Had the scarey challenge test plus many others.

I'm glad you stopped that.

What were the " many others " ?

>Adrenals are way way low

There are two possible patterns for adrenal exhaustion. Hair test could help

with this.

> & thyroid normal (??) and hormones low. Am treating them presently with HC,

ACE, T3, estrogen, progesterone.

What hormones are low? Why are you using T3 if the thyroid is normal? How did

you identify the need for ACE/HC (why both, I think it's usually a progression

from ACE to Isocort to HC)? Are you working with a doctor/endo?

>Its been frustrating - my partner is constantly pressuring me to " do

something (!!) " like finding a doctor that can fix me!

When I was a kid, about 5, a BIG dog was menacing me on the way to my first day

in school. I was terrified. I don't know where it came from, but the second

day, when the dog came at me, I growled and barked really loud, making like I

was going to tear him to shreds. Would you believe it? He put his tail

between his legs and went running away, yelping!

Subsequently, I've found this technique very useful with humans.

>Appreciate all of you & your understanding of this complex journey!

>Joy

Dave.

[Guest guest]

Remember, the DMSA won't get anything out of your brain, so get to ALA as soon

as you can - even if very low dose.

(is - the stuff is really cheap. Puritain Pride has 30mg caps. It's cheap

enough you could use half and throw the rest away.)

Dave.

---------------

Posted by: " is " alexis.atrekkie22@... atrekkie22

Fri Jun 6, 2008 11:50 am (PDT)

Hello

2008/6/5 Jada :

> If you have always experienced " head symptoms " then you may need the

> dmsa only for a while. It took me 16 months of dmsa only chelation to

> tolerate 6mg of ala. I got bad crushing headaches. horrible, felt like

> I was in a vice, and mental..totally mental.

i know im sensitive to medications so im considering using the DMSA,

until my brain improves enough to cope with ALA. Dividing the doses

and putting them somewhere i will remember to take them is virtually

impossible at the moment.

Good news is my circulations lots better now. Air conditioning is less

of a problem this year. Breeze still bothers me but lifes like that.