Re: New to group, husband has kidney pain

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi all,

> My husband has an acute poisoning since Dec. which I will give him

the

> chance to explain his experience himself sometime. I just wanted to

ask

> a question. I am worried about the kidney pain he is experiencing

while

> on a round. He has only done 2 rounds so far. Dmsa 100mg every 4

hours

> for the 3 days on and 4 days off.

TK--- This is way to much to start with - Please reduce dosage to

12.5mg to start and work up slowly over a number of rounds - see

files section -

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/INhGSFpUKOB_Bt_tQZ7OE_zV2nj8WIo1_cdzHZR4E

_ahOZ2R1bWiRTNKTeNi8P4H7Mn4SMltAbtkmwDzj97LBw/TK-%20My%20%20General%

20Chelation%20Suggestions%20-%20PLEASE%20READ%20%21%21%21

He has also had upper, middle, and

> lower back pain that seem very severe. He is taking alot of

> suppliments and I think I have everything else covered. Just

wanted to

> know what to do about kidney pain, is there something he can take

to

> lessen this reaction?

TK--- reduce dosage

(already takes about 4-6 hydro's a day while on a

> round-and this by no means leaves him pain free) What does this

kidney

> pain mean?

TK--- he is using too much dmsa for his body and kidneys toi handle

> Is this pain

> supposed to be a normal thing while taking dmsa?

He drinks alot of

> water..could this have something to do with it?

TK--- not likely

> And I want to know if its normal to feel like absolute crap the day

> after you stop chelating?

TK--- it can be especially if you are using too much chelator

>

> Carie

>

[Guest guest]

First thing: that's too much dmsa to start with. This is most likely

the major problem. I would take his dose down to 25mg. If he is still

having problems...go lower. It took me two years to get to 25mg myself.

It's normal to feel crap the day after. You can help this by

increasing his vitamin C. Sometimes as high as 6,000mg a day. Take

1,000mg doses like very 4 -6 hours and keep drinking a lot of water.

If this does not help then I would ask:

Did he have a lot of cadmium in his hair??

If he did try adding B1 (thiamine) taken with every dose of chelator.

I had to do this to protect my kidneys in the beginning of chelation

because they ached. We had discussed removing cadmium without damaging

the kidneys and this is now.

>

> Hi all,

> My husband has an acute poisoning since Dec. which I will give him the

> chance to explain his experience himself sometime. I just wanted to ask

> a question. I am worried about the kidney pain he is experiencing while

> on a round. He has only done 2 rounds so far. Dmsa 100mg every 4 hours

> for the 3 days on and 4 days off. He has also had upper, middle, and

> lower back pain that seem very severe. He is taking alot of

> suppliments and I think I have everything else covered. Just wanted to

> know what to do about kidney pain, is there something he can take to

> lessen this reaction? (already takes about 4-6 hydro's a day while on a

> round-and this by no means leaves him pain free) What does this kidney

> pain mean?

> Is this pain

> supposed to be a normal thing while taking dmsa? He drinks alot of

> water..could this have something to do with it?

> And I want to know if its normal to feel like absolute crap the day

> after you stop chelating?

>

> Carie

>

[Guest guest]

Posted by: " Carie " carrosa51@... momw3gr8kids

Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:28 am (PDT)

Hi all,

>My husband has an acute poisoning since Dec.

How did that happen?

>which I will give him the

chance to explain his experience himself sometime. I just wanted to ask

a question. I am worried about the kidney pain he is experiencing while

on a round. He has only done 2 rounds so far. Dmsa 100mg every 4 hours

for the 3 days on and 4 days off.

That is quite a lot for a start. I do 25mg and some people here have to do

less. I'd say back off a bit since symptoms sometimes do not appear until a

few round (5-6) have passed.

(Andy has moderated his dose suggestion, already the lowest around, since AI.

Check HTI for more recent suggestion: 1/8 to 1/2 mg per lb bodyweight DMSA/ALA.

Twice that for DMPS.)

>He has also had upper, middle, and lower back pain that seem very severe.

A not unusual mercury poisoning symptom.

>He is taking alot of suppliments and I think I have everything else covered.

Just wanted to know what to do about kidney pain, is there something he can

take to lessen this reaction? already takes about 4-6 hydro's a day while on a

round-and this by no means leaves him pain free) What does this kidney

pain mean?

It is _not_ pain in the kidneys. It's lower back pain. The kidneys could die

without your feeling a thing.

>Is this pain supposed to be a normal thing while taking dmsa? He drinks alot

of water..could this have something to do with it?

>And I want to know if its normal to feel like absolute crap the day

after you stop chelating?

Yes. It shouldn't go on for more than a day though. If it does you should

decrease dose and/or decrease the time between doses.

Are you saying the lower back pain comes on with the chelation? Have you done

a hair test? Can we see it?

I would try (1) Electrolytes: http://onibasu.com/archives/fdc/24416.html which

are necessary for the contraction and relaxing of muscles. (2) Accupuncture is

very good for _acute_ symptoms like this. Chiropractic can also help, though

in my experience not as much with acute pain. (3) I would never have survived

fibromyalgia without yoga.

>Carie

[Guest guest]

The reduced dosing is not in the book, it's in the files. The book was

written in 1999 and has not been revised. Since 1999 between this

group and Autism-Mercury, Andy now recommends a much lower starting

dose because we have learned that the doses in the book are too high

for most people.

I would also ask about the " acute " poisoning. Do you mean he was

exposed to a lot of mercury all at once? If so, what happened?

Does he have blood in the urine? Is the pain gone when he's off dmsa?

If so, then it's the dose.

Taurine will help heal the kidneys if something is wrong with them,

but testing should be done if you feel something is wrong other than

too high a dose. Kidney damage does not happen in chronic mercury but

it does in acute.

A creatinine clearance test is good to determine kidney function. If

it's low, you have to be very careful with chelation. Page 103 of

Amalgam Illness has good info about kidneys and acute poisoning.

In acute poisonings I beleive blood or urine mercury can be measured.

>

> > Thanks Tk, I guess I should have read through the files first but was

> in a hurry to ask. We have Andy's Book and were doing the 1/2mg per

> pound of body weight. I don't remember reading about a lesser dosage

> than that as this file states. I'll run this past him thanks.

> Carie

> >

> > TK--- This is way to much to start with - Please reduce dosage to

> > 12.5mg to start and work up slowly over a number of rounds - see

> > files section -

> > http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/INhGSFpUKOB_Bt_tQZ7OE_zV2nj8WIo1_cdzHZR4E

> > _ahOZ2R1bWiRTNKTeNi8P4H7Mn4SMltAbtkmwDzj97LBw/TK-%20My%20%20General%

> > 20Chelation%20Suggestions%20-%20PLEASE%20READ%20%21%21%21

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> I would also ask about the " acute " poisoning. Do you mean he was

> exposed to a lot of mercury all at once? If so, what happened?

>

It started in last December, I don't know if he was already

chronically mercury poisoned in the first place. He apparently had a

cracked amalgam in his mouth for around 6 months maybe and didn't

tell me about it. During this time he was having light tremors in his

hands that would come and go..he thought it was too much coffee, and

a metal taste in his mouth. He had that amalgam removed around the

same time he had a root canal done on an unrelated tooth. Within 2

weeks after the amalgam removal without a safety protocol he

experienced:

back pain as I had already described in a prior post.

night sweats

anger/frustration/depression issues

sensitive to sound and light

insomnia

Then he was given antidepressants and pain killers and diagnosed with

depression.

By Feb. 2months into it. He was experiencing in addition to above

symptoms:

Sweating turned into No sweating

Low body temp issues (96.3-97.5 as the highest) no matter what time

it was taken

cold intolerance

Tremors are now in his hands, chest, legs that were now constant

Ringing in his ears

Red flushing to his face and ears

Blood pressure that would be 190/98 and then 90/46 within 3 to 6

hours of each other.

Balance issues especially in the morning

Feeling drunk in the morning

Fatigue so bad he really couldn't help me with the kids

Tests showed Low cortisol, HPA (hypothalmus, pituitary, adrenal

insuff.)

Tests showed Low testosterone, elevated estridol and progesterone

High LDL cholesterol, Low HDL

Yet a prophrins test shows neg

Hair test says no mercury (but he made the counting rules for mineral

derrangement) Hah! try explaining that one to a doctor...the man is

still scratching his head.

April and May were bad for him because of the loss of ability to

concentrate.

No more multitasking, he gets mad at himself for walking into a room

and forgeting what he was going in there for.

His speech was being affected too, the doctor sent him for a CT to

see if he had a stroke, he didn't. The only thing that new for this

month is random episodes of breaking out in a sweat.

Now on chelation he is having all these symptoms back again but more

like all at the same time. The kidney pain is what worried me, its

something I hadn't seen before and he looks like its absolutely

excruciating. No blood in urine, no inability to urine. Pain subsides

on the second day " off " round.

I say " acute " because of the rapid onset of all these symptoms in

December that he has never experienced before in our 12 years of

marriage, nor can he remember in his teens or childhood.

He had his remaining amalgams removed with a proper protocol and now

we are chelating. His doctor is curious and will monitor labs but

doesn't know anything about chelation.

Carie

[Guest guest]

Nanci - I believe you were talking back/kidney pain in relation to chelation.

I am understanding from Andy that this is actually a heated topic. It seems

that there are a lot of people raving about how chelation causes lower back

pain and that it _has_ to be kidney pain. Well, Andy's response (in his own

inimitable fashion) is that this is idiotic. That toxin induced kidney failure

(note, _failure_) is not painful and in any case, there is not enough mercury

floating around in a non-acutely poisoned person's bloodstream to cause kidney

failure. The cause of the back pain is the magnesium balance being screwed up.

Now, on the other hand, kidney stones _are_ painful ...

(When I had blood in my urine, it was related to a small kidney stone, and it

damn well hurt!!)

Dave.

----------

Posted by: " nanciwell " nanciwell@... nanciwell

Thu Jun 5, 2008 7:36 am (PDT)

> It is _not_ pain in the kidneys. It's lower back pain. The kidneys

> could die without your feeling a thing.

>

> >Is

I would not be telling this to someone who has not had a

medical diagnoses. I did have pain in my kidneys and blood

showed up in my urine..

Nanci

[Guest guest]

Carie - I should have asked. I don't know much about acute exposure, but you

say " since Dec " . You don't mean it is ongoing, do you? (Of course, you know

not to chelate with ongoing exposure, right?)

I believe that if he had one exposure in Dec, then after about 3 months you

would no longer call that acute. About half the mercury would be gone, and the

rest would have settled out in the tissues.

Dave.

------------------

Posted by: " Carie " carrosa51@... momw3gr8kids

Wed Jun 4, 2008 11:28 am (PDT)

Hi all,

>My husband has an acute poisoning since Dec.

How did that happen?

[Guest guest]

> In my case I would get kidney pain... and kidney

infections. Mercury detox did affect the balance in my

body chemisty.. I do not know the whole dynamic but my

kidneys would ache. I found taking a homeopathic called

Mercury kidney helped with the pain. and really saved my

sanity back then.. The ecoli bacteria I have must have

gotten worse as I would have recurring cystitis , and

blood in my kidneys.. I know the difference between lower back

and kidneys.. beleive me.. !!!

Since doing frequent dose my kidneys are better.. But they

would get worse when I first started.. I had to lower my

dose in order to bear it at all. and even then I HAD to have

kidney support with herbs..

nanci

> Nanci - I believe you were talking back/kidney pain in relation to

chelation.

>

> I am understanding from Andy that this is actually a heated topic.

It seems

> that there are a lot of people raving about how chelation causes

lower back

> pain and that it _has_ to be kidney pain. Well, Andy's response

(in his own

> inimitable fashion) is that this is idiotic. That toxin induced

kidney failure

> (note, _failure_) is not painful and in any case, there is not

enough mercury

> floating around in a non-acutely poisoned person's bloodstream to

cause kidney

> failure. The cause of the back pain is the magnesium balance being

screwed up.

>

> Now, on the other hand, kidney stones _are_ painful ...

>

> (When I had blood in my urine, it was related to a small kidney

stone, and it

> damn well hurt!!)

>

> Dave.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Now on chelation he is having all these symptoms back again but more

> like all at the same time. The kidney pain is what worried me, its

> something I hadn't seen before and he looks like its absolutely

> excruciating. No blood in urine, no inability to urine. Pain subsides

> on the second day " off " round.

Hi,

I have had the experience with clients where their back pain resolves

instantly with proper adrenal support suitable to their individual needs.

The adrenal glands can and do refer back pain to the T12 area. It is more

central and more unrelenting that kidney pain. Feels like you want to put

two fists on your spine and press. (Which does give some relief, but as soon

as you let go it comes back)

Kidney pain is wider, lower and softer, with most of the pain in the

morning. It is much easier to live with than adrenal referred pain.

I know Andy does not believe that low back pain is kidney related, but I can

tell you that when people are put on the kidney cleanse the pain resolves a

few weeks in 95% of them.

When the pain comes and goes in relation to rounds I'm more inclined to

believe that he is experiencing a referred pain from the adrenals.

Cortisol or DHEA are the two things that have helped impressively.

The adrenals always experience a stress challenge during redistribution. I

have often wondered if the HC does could be increased for a day or two after

round.

DeanSA

[Guest guest]

Posted by: " Carie " carrosa51@... momw3gr8kids

Fri Jun 6, 2008 4:24 pm (PDT)

>>I would also ask about the " acute " poisoning. Do you mean he was

>>exposed to a lot of mercury all at once? If so, what happened?

>It started in last December, I don't know if he was already

chronically mercury poisoned in the first place. He apparently had a

cracked amalgam in his mouth for around 6 months maybe and didn't

tell me about it. During this time he was having light tremors in his

hands that would come and go..he thought it was too much coffee, and

a metal taste in his mouth. He had that amalgam removed around the

same time he had a root canal done on an unrelated tooth. Within 2

weeks after the amalgam removal without a safety protocol he

experienced:

Oh, boy. Well, this sure sounds like it!

Ya, he probably was just on the edge, and then got enough to be pushed over the

edge on that last removal.

There are things that you husband can do for the various symptoms. NUMERO UNO

is the sulfur exclusion diet. (Onibasu that on the AM and FDC lists.)

>back pain as I had already described in a prior post.

Magnesium or maybe the whole electrolyte mix. Taurine.

>night sweats

Maybe thiamine and lecithin.

>anger/frustration/

Liver support (milk thistle, lecithin, glycine, taurine)

>depression issues

A lot of stuff, start with the diet (above), also do the exclusion diet to look

for food reactivity, also begin with CLO + (zn, mg, vit Bs, vit C) +

(phosphotidyl - choline, -inositol, -serine). Read more in Andy's book.

>sensitive to sound and light

>insomnia

melatonin - he can go up to 20/30mg if needs be. I only need 1.5 though.

>Then he was given antidepressants and pain killers and diagnosed with

depression.

By Feb. 2months into it. He was experiencing in addition to above

symptoms:

>Sweating turned into No sweating

Anhydrosis - something in AI. Try thiamine and lecithin.

>Low body temp issues (96.3-97.5 as the highest) no matter what time

it was taken

>cold intolerance

Probably needs thyroid support. Has he tested?

>Tremors are now in his hands, chest, legs that were now constant

>Ringing in his ears

Try magnesium, 5mg manganese (if doesn't work, remove it), vinpocetin 10-20mg

3-4x/d (similar, if it doesn't work remove it). Can also try other prefusion

enhancers, like hydergine or piritinol (nubrain.com)

>Red flushing to his face and ears

>Blood pressure that would be 190/98 and then 90/46 within 3 to 6

hours of each other.

Probably adrenal chaos. Look into adrenal support.

>Balance issues especially in the morning

Interventions same as the tinnitus.

>Feeling drunk in the morning

Isn't fun when it doesn't end, is it?

>Fatigue so bad he really couldn't help me with the kids

Adrenal/thyroid again.

>Tests showed Low cortisol, HPA (hypothalmus, pituitary, adrenal

insuff.)

>Tests showed Low testosterone, elevated estridol and progesterone

Thyroid?

>High LDL cholesterol, Low HDL

>Yet a prophrins test shows neg

They are often negative since they are so sensitive to handling.

>Hair test says no mercury (but he made the counting rules for mineral

derrangement) Hah! try explaining that one to a doctor...the man is

still scratching his head.

Want to show it to us?

>April and May were bad for him because of the loss of ability to

concentrate.

>No more multitasking, he gets mad at himself for walking into a room

and forgeting what he was going in there for.

Perfusion enhancers (above), perhaps acetylcholine precursors (lecithin)

>His speech was being affected too, the doctor sent him for a CT to

see if he had a stroke, he didn't. The only thing that new for this

month is random episodes of breaking out in a sweat.

>Now on chelation he is having all these symptoms back again but more

like all at the same time.

Move the doses closer together (ALA 2 hrs in the day, 3 at night). Drop the

dose. Make sure to give all supplements all the time through the day, and do

the sulfur exclusion diet!

>The kidney pain is what worried me, its something I hadn't seen before and he

looks like its absolutely excruciating. No blood in urine, no inability to

urine. Pain subsides on the second day " off " round.

>I say " acute " because of the rapid onset of all these symptoms in

December that he has never experienced before in our 12 years of

marriage, nor can he remember in his teens or childhood.

>He had his remaining amalgams removed with a proper protocol and now

we are chelating. His doctor is curious and will monitor labs but

doesn't know anything about chelation.

Ya, I'm sure he will. Otherwise, what can he do to ask for a fee? Do a lab,

collect a few bucks. Do you really need him??

>Carie

Poor guy ...

Dave.

[Guest guest]

I've read that sometimes the back pain can be related to adrenal issues.

Kinesiology shows that the muscles related to the adrenals are the ones that

stabilise the lower back, knees and ankles - so weak adrenals can be suspected

if ankles, knees or lower back are prone to injury from slight cause.

Low thyroid can also keep a back from healing - one of the indicators to check a

thyroid is when chiropractic/osteopathic adjustments to correct the spine don't

hold well. Once thyroid levels are corrected the adjustments hold.

The connection to magnesium is interesting because a lot of low thryoid symptoms

are also low magnesium symptoms.

Gail.

To: frequent-dose-chelation@...: mercury@...: Fri, 6

Jun 2008 14:08:29 -0700Subject: Re: New to group,

husband has kidney pain

Nanci - I believe you were talking back/kidney pain in relation to chelation.I

am understanding from Andy that this is actually a heated topic. It seems that

there are a lot of people raving about how chelation causes lower back pain and

that it _has_ to be kidney pain. Well, Andy's response (in his own inimitable

fashion) is that this is idiotic. That toxin induced kidney failure (note,

_failure_) is not painful and in any case, there is not enough mercury floating

around in a non-acutely poisoned person's bloodstream to cause kidney failure.

The cause of the back pain is the magnesium balance being screwed up.Now, on the

other hand, kidney stones _are_ painful ...(When I had blood in my urine, it was

related to a small kidney stone, and it damn well hurt!!)Dave.----------Posted

by: " nanciwell " nanciwell@... nanciwellThu Jun 5, 2008 7:36 am (PDT)> It

is _not_ pain in the kidneys. It's lower back pain. The kidneys> could die

without your feeling a thing.>> >IsI would not be telling this to someone who

has not had amedical diagnoses. I did have pain in my kidneys and bloodshowed up

in my urine..Nanci

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[Guest guest]

--- In frequent-them.

> When the pain comes and goes in relation to rounds I'm more

inclined to

> believe that he is experiencing a referred pain from the adrenals.

> Cortisol or DHEA are the two things that have helped impressively.

> The adrenals always experience a stress challenge during

redistribution.

I am not trying to be a sore point.. BUT. LOL

MY kidneys would start to hurt and more frequently when

I was doing frequent dose.. I know it was the kidneys

because I would also get cystitis, a bladder infection

which was cultured for ecoli,... I figure it was the ecoli

that was overgrowing more as this has been a bacteria I

have had problems with right from the beginning of getting ill

33 years ago.

My adrenals seem to be okay.. The saliva test came back

okay and I have reasonably normal energy, except for

depression helped with 5HTP his reasobly normal energy

started since starting pregnenolone and since my 10

chelation.. My kidney/ bladder symptoms have decreased a

great deal with the last few chelation rounds.

Nanciwell