Guest guest Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 Hi , I hope for your sake that your ability to tolerate high doses, at the current time, has to do with low levels of toxicity compared to others. (I also hope that others won't follow your lead and ramp up doses too fast). I wanted to draw your attention to a couple of things. > > > > For example, in the wiki of onibasu one can find message > http://onibasu.com/archives/am/111370.html, of which I quote some lines: > > > > " Dosage is a lot more flexible than adminstration schedule. There are > >fundamental scientific realities that dictate the need to use > >adequately frequent administration and in a technical sense make a > >chelation protocol RIGHT or WRONG to an extent that it is really just > >about a moral issue. There is no such thing with amount of chelator. > >This is not based on any fundamental principle, it is based on what > >level of side effects each particular individual experiences. > >Experimenting with higher dosages is not something there is a hard >and > >fast rule against and it is OK to do it under appropriate >circumstances > >with reasonable care, thought and precautions. Experimenting with > >longer times between doses than stated is something there is a hard >and > >fast rule against and should almost never be done. " > There are a couple of parts of that post that you didn't quote: " A 50% increase in chelator provides a whopping 18% increase in metal removal speed, it is NOT something you want to push on! " and " Given the nature of the typical side effects, I would suggest respecting the maximum recommended amounts for those who are unable to express how they feel very well, or if you have done less than 20-30 rounds of chelation. " I'm not sure how many rounds your chelation would be equivalent to considering that you have extended the days of the rounds. The point would be that Andy does repeatedly caution people not to ramp up dose too fast. Another recent post: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/message/27673 " ()> > Possibly, though I was simply thinking that the harder I chelated, > > the more quickly things would go. (Andy) This is incorrect and is the way a lot of foolish people make themselves horribly sick. " and " ()> > So are you saying that heavy chelation can actually do more harm > > than good? (Andy) Yes. " ( said) > It is also very interesting for me this answer to a message from Moria: > http://onibasu.com/archives/am/32252.html > At Moria's web page she does say that what she writes is her interpretation of what Andy has said, and that she is not Andy. I don't use her posts to make important decisions for myself (while I do use things that Andy has said). Sometimes her posts can be misleading, while Andy is more careful about how he words things. She has tried several things that I don't agree with, and posted many comments that I don't agree with. > > I think the basic idea is not to obsess too much about ramping up the > dose, given the infamous linear/square root problem with side > effects/excretion. Specially, one should try not to make oneself too > miserable trying to go up. >However, if you can go up, GO AHEAD! Yes, if you can go up, go ahead. There are certain guidelines that Andy has given us for increasing the dose, that you have ignored. One was to only increase by 50% of the last dose. One was to not go above 1 mg/lb (When dosing at 2 h intervals does that limit change? I don't recall Andy ever saying.) > Don't > think there is a hidden truck waiting anywhere to smash you! > I certainly hope that your chelation experiments will work out well for you, and if they do, I suspect that your toxicity levels were low to begin with, and possibly the metals weren't in your body long enough to do as much damage as some of us have to cope with. For some of us, there are hidden trucks waiting to smash us when we increase dose too fast. There are posts from people in archives who have chelated too fast and damaged themselves (although I haven't kept track of those posts). I am one who has been smashed by the hidden trucks, and will therefore be there to warn others to proceed with caution. Chelating too fast can, for example, can wear down the adrenals. Once that happens it might need cortisol to repair. Cortisol is not easy to get by prescription. That puts a person in a bind. All the best > This said, I am sorry to know about your particular experience with > ALA and really have no idea about how is that this has happened to > you. Hope you recover soon and thank you for sharing it with us. > Please, keep us informed about it. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 Hi , Sorry, a couple of ideas repeat again and again in this message and thread, so it can be quite boring! > > > Hi , > > I hope for your sake that your ability to tolerate high doses, at the > current time, has to do with low levels of toxicity compared to > others. Thank you, . In my particular case, I am toxic since I was a child (now 41) due to the experiments of my father as an alchemist and later, the usual amalgams. I have had many periods of fatigue since I was a kid and in recent years (since 1998 or so) hypothyroidism, muscular weakness to the point to not to be able to hold the phone, brain fog that, in the worst moments made me unable to count my coins or remember the way back home, constant fatigue or depressed immune system, to name some of the problems I suffered. I have had also nice periods in my life in which I managed to have what seemed to be a normal life, but those moments have become more and more scarce last years. Of course it is possible to be more toxic than me, but I don't wish to anyone to be as toxic as I am. > (I also hope that others won't follow your lead and ramp up > doses too fast). > I hope too. I think that defining " fast " would end the discussion. I understand that chelating fast (or hard, etc.) means to feel bad during chelation, beyond what are normal or manageable side effects. Is this the right definition for you? > I wanted to draw your attention to a couple of things. > > > > > > > > > > For example, in the wiki of onibasu one can find message > > http://onibasu.com/archives/am/111370.html, of which I quote some lines: > > > > > > > " Dosage is a lot more flexible than adminstration schedule. There are > > >fundamental scientific realities that dictate the need to use > > >adequately frequent administration and in a technical sense make a > > >chelation protocol RIGHT or WRONG to an extent that it is really just > > >about a moral issue. There is no such thing with amount of chelator. > > >This is not based on any fundamental principle, it is based on what > > >level of side effects each particular individual experiences. > > >Experimenting with higher dosages is not something there is a hard >and > > >fast rule against and it is OK to do it under appropriate > >circumstances > > >with reasonable care, thought and precautions. Experimenting with > > >longer times between doses than stated is something there is a hard > >and > > >fast rule against and should almost never be done. " > > > > > There are a couple of parts of that post that you didn't quote: > > " A 50% increase in chelator provides a whopping 18% increase in metal > removal speed, it is NOT something you want to push on! " Yes, . This idea has repeated very often and I think we all agree about this. If I understand correctly, the idea is that it is not worth to increase your dose if that makes you feel miserable. Given how eager we can be to get rid of the hell we are living in, it is easy to imagine many people mortifying themselves with high doses of chelators. This should not be done because it is not rational from any point of view of cost/benefit. Moreover, if you chelate " fast " for some time, no doubt you can cause yourself serious damage. > > and > > " Given the nature of the typical side effects, I would suggest > respecting the maximum recommended amounts for those who are unable to > express how they feel very well, or if you have done less than 20-30 > rounds of chelation. " > > I'm not sure how many rounds your chelation would be equivalent to > considering that you have extended the days of the rounds. The point > would be that Andy does repeatedly caution people not to ramp up dose > too fast. Here comes what I think we interpret differently. I think that if you use a given dose of chelator and you feel reasonably well, this dose is OK for you and will not cause you damage beyond what is the inherent risk of what we are doing. We all hope this risk to be small. Is the dose is not right for you, you will know it very soon and if you stop it as soon as you feel bad, you only will suffer at most a few days of what we call redistribution. Would you agree with this? > > Another recent post: > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/message/27673 > > " ()> > Possibly, though I was simply thinking that the harder I > chelated, > > > the more quickly things would go. > > (Andy) This is incorrect and is the way a lot of foolish people make > themselves > horribly sick. " This is in agreement with all above. I understand that chelate hard means to feel bad due to chelation, not to use a particular dose, high or low. No wonder that if you feel sick and go on with an unappropriated dose you finally get horribly sick. > > and > > " ()> > So are you saying that heavy chelation can actually do > more harm > > > than good? > > (Andy) Yes. " > Same comment as above. > > > ( said) > > It is also very interesting for me this answer to a message from Moria: > > http://onibasu.com/archives/am/32252.html > > > > > At Moria's web page she does say that what she writes is her > interpretation of what Andy has said, and that she is not Andy. I > don't use her posts to make important decisions for myself (while I do > use things that Andy has said). Sometimes her posts can be > misleading, while Andy is more careful about how he words things. She > has tried several things that I don't agree with, and posted many > comments that I don't agree with. The message above is written by Andy in response to a question from Moria. Andy says that it seems OK to him Moria's plan to increase from 150 mg of ALA to 200 mg. Andy also says not to be sure about a reasonable upper bound for ALA, suggesting that maybe would be 300 - 500 mg. > > > > > > > I think the basic idea is not to obsess too much about ramping up the > > dose, given the infamous linear/square root problem with side > > effects/excretion. Specially, one should try not to make oneself too > > miserable trying to go up. > > >However, if you can go up, GO AHEAD! > > > Yes, if you can go up, go ahead. There are certain guidelines that > Andy has given us for increasing the dose, that you have ignored. One > was to only increase by 50% of the last dose. This is a reasonable rule that I have certainly broken. I have increased the dose by 100% several times. If I remember correctly, however, in AI it is suggested to increase the dosage by steps of X1.5 or X2, but perhaps this has been superseded One was to not go above > 1 mg/lb (When dosing at 2 h intervals does that limit change? I > don't recall Andy ever saying.) In http://onibasu.com/archives/am/92631.html I understand Andy is suggesting to use the same dose each two hours than that used each three hours. > > > > > Don't > > think there is a hidden truck waiting anywhere to smash you! > > > > > I certainly hope that your chelation experiments will work out well > for you, and if they do, I suspect that your toxicity levels were low > to begin with, and possibly the metals weren't in your body long > enough to do as much damage as some of us have to cope with. Regrettably, I don't think this applies to me. Moreover, a friend of mine who, I think, is very toxic (if only for the fatigue and muscular problems she has) is using 150 mg right now and feels fine. Andy itself I think used 200 mg, if I remember correctly. So being able to tolerate 200 mg of ALA probably depend on many factors which are beyond me, but is no guarantee of being non-toxic. I was absolutely unable to handle 12.5 mg of ALA each 3 hours. After that, at 25 mg each two hours, if I remember well, yeast turned out to be a stumbling block apparently impossible to overcome. These and other solvable problems that could make some people to stall at a very low dose. There is a factor of x16 between the standard initial dose of 12.5 mg and 200 mg. So if one person would have to chelate along, say, one year at 200 mg, the same person would need around four years using 12.5 mg. If this is really the only tolerable dose for someone, it is OK. But it would be very sad that being possible to shorten considerably the chelation interval not to do so because of fear of trying a higher dosage, timing, etc. I don't know what other problems are waiting for me, but it is wonderful to know I will count on the help of the group. So far, if I feel at least temporarily better to some extent is only thanks to Andy's books, the accumulated experience of the chelation lists and the help that many of you have selflessly provided. I have no words to express how grateful I feel. > > For some of us, there are hidden trucks waiting to smash us when we > increase dose too fast. There are posts from people in archives who > have chelated too fast and damaged themselves (although I haven't kept > track of those posts). I have no doubt this has happened. The wonder of oral chelation is that you can listen to your body and stop as soon you feel bad. > > I am one who has been smashed by the hidden trucks, and will therefore > be there to warn others to proceed with caution. I already knew that and I am really sorry for you, and grateful for counting on you. I am not suicidal and try to be quite rational about the risks I take and I honestly don't think I have run a serious risk, i.e., something beyond to have another crash of a few days like many other previous times before. > > Chelating too fast can, for example, can wear down the adrenals. Once > that happens it might need cortisol to repair. Cortisol is not easy > to get by prescription. That puts a person in a bind. > > All the best > > > > > > > This said, I am sorry to know about your particular experience with > > ALA and really have no idea about how is that this has happened to > > you. Hope you recover soon and thank you for sharing it with us. > > Please, keep us informed about it. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 > > Hi , > > Sorry, a couple of ideas repeat again and again in this message and > thread, so it can be quite boring! > > Not boring at all, for me at least. I am happy for you, and for your friend, and not able to explain why different people tolerate different doses. Please keep us posted with your progress. Not sure what I should do with my dose next! Sorry I read the post of Andy's (replying to Moria) wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2008 Report Share Posted August 8, 2008 , A few points from my own experience: 1) Feeling good can sometimes be a symptom in itself. If you feel *very* good, or if you have a lot of ups and downs on a round, this suggests that the good feelings might be a symptom that needs to be treated or addressed with lower chelator doses. 2) Symptoms can change from round to round, especially when you first start with a dose. It is a good idea to do several rounds at a given dose before increasing. 3) I have gone through different " eras " in this process, largely related to changes in hormonal needs and pathogen problems. These problems were not obvious to me and I thought I was doing fine until the problems suddenly grabbed me by the ankle and tackled me to the ground. If/when these sorts of problems crop up, they might affect how much chelator you can tolerate. I have two questions, if you don't mind answering: 1) Did you experience the dumping stage? 2) Do you feel you are downregulated or upregulated according to what Andy describes on p. 48 of AI, right column? -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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