Patti - My daughter's diet

[Guest guest]

Hi Patti:

A brief refresher...

I originally posted that my 2 yo who has been on dairy-free SCD infraction free

for 2 months is still having behavioural (raging) issues, food refusal, runny

poops and bloated tummy. Her 3.5 yo severely autistic sister is doing well on

the same foods.

Thought it may be goat yogurt intolerance (gradually built up to 1 tsp/day).

Patti wrote:

Kim, I'd rather you post through the list, so that some of the other veterans

can look it over, too. They may see something that I've missed. Patti

So here goes...

Breakfast:

- usually sneaky veg pancakes (squash or carrot) spread with nut butter

(macadamia)

- occassionally homemade sausage recipe that was shared on pecanbread some time

ago (pork, applesauce, sage)

Lunch/Dinner:

- consists of a meat (all organic/free range etc) chicken, ground or roast beef,

legally roasted ham, legal bacon. She usually doesn't give me trouble eating

meat

- veg - currently using carrot, french cut green beans, zucchini (peeled and

seeded), tomato (peeled and mostly seeded - some slip by), small sweet peas,

butternut squash, onion (boiled until translucent and pureed - only used in

recipes), spinach, mushroom. Everything is very well cooked. Will

occassionally eat her veg, but usually will put up a massive fight and not eat.

Inbetweens/desserts/other:

- she's constantly asking for " juice " which is really distilled water with a

*splash* (I mean 1 tablespoon at most) of legal organic white grape juice.

- apple, pear or pineapple/peach sauce. about 4 tsp/serving

- goat yogurt - currently takes 1 tsp/day sweetened with a touch of honey

- rarely - spinach cracker (recipe posted here) used only to season zucchini

noodles

- rarely - walnut cookie (recipe contains walnut, reduced honey, cinnamon, egg

whites)

- supplement - SCD legal Everyday Multi-Vitamin by Kirkman and SCD legal

unflavoured calcium with vit D by Kirkman

- herbs: dill, sage, thyme, rosemary, garlic, mustard powder

- fats: mainly organic coconut oil and bacon drippings

Sorry for the length of this post. Any insight into her/my lack of success on

dairy-free (goat yogurt exception) SCD would be appreciated!!! Would love to

see the bloated belly, runny poops and raging behaviour disappear!!!

Kim

2 months dairy-free SCD

3.5 yo ASD, 2 yo NT

[Guest guest]

Kim,

Okay, I'm going to go through your post point by point, and just offer my best

judgement. Please know that I am just trying to turn over every rock. (And you

thought YOUR post was long... LOL)

I know it defies logic that one child is doing well, while the other, who is

eating basically the same food, is doing not-so-well. Each kid is an individual

and comes to this diet with a unique system... and possibly a much different

degree of imbalance in the gut from their siblings and parents. So, we have to

treat each kid according to the symptoms they present. Makes sense, right?

The first thing I want to bring up is just something I have a " thing " about. I

just don't trust little kids... let's say, anyone under age 4, to really be

chewing their foods well. So... in many cases, with one this little, if they're

not making headway, I would suggest you've really got to puree everything for a

while. I mean really almost EVERYthing.... I know that sounds like a pain, but

remember the goal is making everything as easy to digest as humanly possible. If

she will accept it pureed, that is.

My daughter is nearly ten, but is extremely delayed, so I think of her as a

" really big toddler " . She does not chew well.... and she doesn't understand if

we explain something like this. So, for her (about six weeks SCD this time) I

will be pureeing for a while (months). What we end up with is lots of thick

" soups " and " sauces " . I assume you're basically doing a lot of pureeing with

many of the foods you listed... such as the sneaky veggie pancakes. So, with

that said, I'll move on.

Now, remember, I'm going to dredge up every single point that occurs to me. Some

of it may not apply to you... so don't think I'm coming down too hard. You will

know which of these suggestions bring a " light bulb moment " .... and make

reasonable sense to try.

Here goes......

<<Breakfast:

- usually sneaky veg pancakes (squash or carrot) spread with nut butter

(macadamia)

- occassionally homemade sausage recipe that was shared on pecanbread some time

ago (pork, applesauce, sage)>>

You might need to consider pulling back the nut products for her... just for a

little while, though it doesn't look like you're using much, and macadamia seems

like a good choice to me for a first nut butter. You're making sure the meat and

veggies for the pancake are pureed, right... not just chopped fine?

<<Lunch/Dinner:

- consists of a meat (all organic/free range etc) chicken, ground or roast beef,

legally roasted ham, legal bacon. She usually doesn't give me trouble eating

meat>>

If it were me, going through what you are right now with her, I would

temporarily (for a week or two) really simplify the meats she gets. I might try

to stick with slow-roasted chicken and beef.... cooked a long time in the crock

pot... or soups made from same. Then PUREE (you're going to get sick of hearing

me say that! ).

I would just *try* to pull the ham and bacon for the moment. And I also have

personal issues with the ground meats. I think little ones tend to eat them down

without chewing as well.... and I have trouble pureeing cooked ground chicken or

beef to as fine a consistency as I can get with slow-roasted non-ground meats.

It stays sort of lumpy.

<<- veg - currently using carrot, french cut green beans, zucchini (peeled and

seeded), tomato (peeled and mostly seeded - some slip by), small sweet peas,

butternut squash, onion (boiled until translucent and pureed - only used in

recipes), spinach, mushroom. Everything is very well cooked. Will

occassionally eat her veg, but usually will put up a massive fight and not

eat.>>

I think it's too soon for the peas. It's impossible to say how long one should

wait to introduce these, but my guideline would be... if my kid is having runny

poops and bloated tummy, it's too soon for her yet. It wouldn't matter if she's

been on SCD 6 months... if I was seeing this, I would pull them. Then, when I

reintroduced them, I would only use the very young ones, and would push them

through a sieve to remove the skins.

I would either wait on tomatoes, or make sure you're getting all the seeds. I

think it's too soon for the mushrooms, and they're hard to puree. Otherwise,

these veggies seem fine... but I would still puree them all (at least for a week

or two). I know.... broken record.

<<Inbetweens/desserts/other:

- she's constantly asking for " juice " which is really distilled water with a

*splash* (I mean 1 tablespoon at most) of legal organic white grape juice.>>

I am always wary when I hear a kid is " constantly asking for " anything. I wonder

if the bad gut bugs are the ones who are *craving* this (and sending her the

signals to ask for it). What legal organic white grape juice is this? I mean,

what brand? Can you maybe try honey lemonade? A squeeze of fresh lemon juice in

water... with just a bit of honey? Chilled peppermint tea with a bit of honey?

(Call it " juice " .)

<<- apple, pear or pineapple/peach sauce. about 4 tsp/serving>>

All of which you are making yourself from fresh fruit, right? I'm assuming so.

The pineapple *may* be too fibrous for a kid that's been on SCD this short a

time.... and who is still having these symptoms.....even if you're pureeing.

<<- goat yogurt - currently takes 1 tsp/day sweetened with a touch of honey>>

So, let me make sure I've got this straight. You did absolutely NO yogurt until

recently? And you always saw the same symptoms... even before you started the

yogurt?

<<- rarely - spinach cracker (recipe posted here) used only to season zucchini

noodles

- rarely - walnut cookie (recipe contains walnut, reduced honey, cinnamon, egg

whites)>>

I would consider pulling the nuts for this child, just for a while. You've got

to see these runny poops subside before I would be comfortable with even finely

ground walnut or almond flour. (I'm assuming the spinach crackers have almond

flour in them? I've never made them.) What is " reduced honey " ? We are

absolutely sure that the honey you're using is 100% pure honey, right? (No stone

unturned.)

<<- herbs: dill, sage, thyme, rosemary, garlic, mustard powder>>

All of these are just being used for flavoring, right? Then you pull them out?

Except for the mustard powder, and maybe ground, powdered sage, I would not want

to have any of the actual leafy parts of the thyme or rosemary left in the

food..... they are pretty tough and fibrous and would be impossible to

completely puree. Too hard for a sick gut. Too soon for garlic for this child,

too... just my opinion.

I just think.... I mean, I know she's more likely to eat the food if it's

flavorful, but think of a child with a bad tummy flu. You'd give ONLY very bland

foods until they were better, right? Same logic. I'd really go with just salt,

if possible.... or maybe put whole bunches of herbs in a cheesecloth pouch so

you can pull them out and throw them away before serving. When I do my whole

chickens in the crockpot, I stuff them full of garlic and fresh rosemary.... but

I throw it all away before serving. Lots of flavor in the juices, though.

Tell me a little bit more... just to remind me.... of exactly how long ago you

started the goat yogurt, and what changes (if any) you've seen since the first

bite of it. I need to know if you saw all these same symptoms all along. If this

started when you started the yogurt, I'd pull it altogether, just for a week,

and see what you see. Better, worse, same?

Sometimes it's so hard to tease everything out.... it's all so interwoven.

You're working really hard...and you deserve the pay-off! Let's see if we can

simplify everything for her ... just for a brief period... and see if there's

any improvement.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Patti

[Guest guest]

<<- veg - currently using carrot, french cut green beans, zucchini

(peeled and seeded), tomato (peeled and mostly seeded - some slip by),

small sweet peas, butternut squash, onion (boiled until translucent and

pureed - only used in recipes), spinach, mushroom. Everything is very

well cooked. Will occassionally eat her veg, but usually will put up a

massive fight and not eat.>>

<<I think it's too soon for the peas. It's impossible to say how long

one should wait to introduce these, but my guideline would be... if my

kid is having runny poops and bloated tummy, it's too soon for her yet.

It wouldn't matter if she's been on SCD 6 months... if I was seeing

this, I would pull them. Then, when I reintroduced them, I would only

use the very young ones, and would push them through a sieve to remove

the skins.

The problem with peas - for anyone - is that if they have a problem

with lactose intolerance, there will probably be a problem with peas.

It seems that peas have a sugar in them called 'raffinose' which is

almost the same structure as lactose. If there are problems with

dairy, you may see pretty much the same difficulties with the peas.

Sue

[Guest guest]

Kim,

Maybe stop the butternut squash (high carb food) and nut butter (too much

fat can create runny poop), sweet peas (starchy). Can you use homemade

ketchup instead of the nut butter? Try scrambled eggs or omelet (sp?) for

breakfast as a change from the veggie. Sorry. not sure if eggs are a problem

for your child. Stop any honey for now - feeds the yeasties - bloating. I

would have suggested banana pancakes for b'fast but the banana maybe too

much carb too for now.

High carb content and fatty foods can create bloating and mushy stools

(just dairy is not the possible problem).

Suneeti

>

>Reply-To: pecanbread

>To: <pecanbread >

>Subject: Patti - My daughter's diet

>Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:40:22 -0400

>

>Hi Patti:

>

>A brief refresher...

>

>I originally posted that my 2 yo who has been on dairy-free SCD infraction

>free for 2 months is still having behavioural (raging) issues, food

>refusal, runny poops and bloated tummy. Her 3.5 yo severely autistic

>sister is doing well on the same foods.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Patti;

I must say you are an absolute angel to devote so much time to my daughter's

eating problems! Thank-you!! :-)

I will answer your questions in the order you posted them... all excellent

suggestions by the way.

I agree with you about the need to puree her foods. The only problem is she is

refusing soup and mushy food. I know people will say try ABA techniques and try

offering the food and if she doesn't eat it then she's finished with her meal.

Great suggestions, however I tried the tough love approach a week after we did

the intro diet and she lost a FRIGHTENING amount of weight. Looked extremely

malnourished and unhealthy. She has no weight loss to spare. I will try to get

the pureed foods into her though.

The meats I am feeding her are predominantly ones cooked in the slow cooker or

boiled chicken. I just give bacon on occassion because it's not the most

nutritious choice of meat. But yes, I agree ground meats may be too chunky to

digest and bacon should be pulled for a while.

As for veg - I don't have to worry about her eating tomato or mushroom as she

doesn't eat anything I prepare with these veggies in them. Really tough to get

veg into her. I agree about the peas she willingly eats these though... only

other veg she gets is squash in her sneaky pancakes and zucchini noodle.

Hopefully this is enough until she's more receptive to other foods. She doesn't

like food items repeated very often. SIGH.

Good suggestions about the juice and fruit. I'll pull back on pineapple-peach

sauce - yes it is made from scratch. The juice is a Canadian brand - Wellesely

White Grape juice not from concentrate. There was a discussion about this juice

on pecanbread several months back. Determined legal.

The goat yogurt we started about 3 weeks ago. Low and slow 1/8 tsp to start -

now takes 1 tsp/day. Symptoms were present before and after starting yogurt -

no change.

Yes, the spinach cracker does contain almond flour. I neglected to write in

reduced AMOUNT of honey in walnut cookie recipe - not some new-fangled type of

honey.

Yes the herbs/garlic are used for flavouring but I haven't been pulling them out

of the recipes before serving. I will also try this. She doesn't usually eat

my recipes anyway.

Great point about serving a child with a sick tummy bland foods to help them

heal. I just hope she won't go on a total hunger strike again. She's not

eating much now, but at least she's not losing more weight.

I really hope I have the emotional stamina to stick with this for my youngest.

As I mentioned she REALLY rages. Sorry to whine but I'm having a hard time of

things right now. I'm 5 months pregnant and in the midst of selling my house to

pay for therapy for my eldest severely autistic daughter (we have no government

funding or coverage). Drained in every sense of the word.

I've also recently fell off the dairy-free SCD - haven't had time to prepare

enough SCD foods for my husband and I AND my kids, and trying to keep the house

clean for showings. Feeling really guilty and crummy from the foods I've been

eating. With every non-SCD food that goes in my mouth I feel like I'm

sentencing my baby to ASD :-(

Will hopefully get back on the diet, but I'm afraid of subjecting my baby to

die-off TWICE.

Sorry for the novel. Thanks again so much for your devotion to the families on

this list. Your advice is really appreciated!!

Kim

2 months dairy-free SCD for 3.5 yo ASD and 2 yo

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the tips Suneeti. I would love to use ketchup instead of nut butter

for her pancake but she won't eat any savoury versions of the sneaky veg

pancake.

Kim

Patti - My daughter's diet

>Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:40:22 -0400

>

>Hi Patti:

>

>A brief refresher...

>

>I originally posted that my 2 yo who has been on dairy-free SCD infraction

>free for 2 months is still having behavioural (raging) issues, food

>refusal, runny poops and bloated tummy. Her 3.5 yo severely autistic

>sister is doing well on the same foods.

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[Guest guest]

Kim,

First of all, DON'T heap guilt on yourself! You have a LOT going on right

now.... and you're working really hard.

Here's a couple of things I can think of right now:

You said:

<<I agree with you about the need to puree her foods. The only problem is she

is refusing soup and mushy food. >>

I would just try to get what veggie purees you can... worked into the sneaky

pancakes. You're just using squash in those right now. But maybe you can

sssssllllllooowwwwly substitute a tiny amount of pureed green bean or carrot or

whatever for a tidge of the squash and increase as you can. Just for more

variety.

<<I tried the tough love approach a week after we did the intro diet and she

lost a FRIGHTENING amount of weight.>>

I agree.... you shouldn't get into trying to force her to eat.

Will she accept frozen smoothies to drink? With a straw maybe? Or... made thick

enough to be spoonable like ice cream? You'd be surprised what you can hide in a

smoothie. This works really well with bananas... but looking back, I don't see

mention of her having any bananas.

If she can eat them, freeze ripe bananas in chunks and then throw them in the

blender with a little water. You can steam chunks of peaches, pears, etc... and

then freeze those and just use a regular (non-frozen) ripe banana. Cooked frozen

papaya chunks.... mango maybe? Gotta have some part of it frozen to make it

milk-shakish/smoothie-ish.

Anyway, then you can " hide " things like a little bit of pureed carrot or even

pureed green beans. I know... sounds gross... but a LITTLE bit won't change the

flavor or color much.

You could gradually try a little ripe avacado, too... super nutritious and

smooth.... good calorie source and pretty easy to digest. No need to cook them

if they're nicely ripe and soft. Some kids begin to really love and look forward

to their " green smoothies " .... and you can just very, very gradually increase

the veggie purees and avacado as tolerated.

Take it easy.... get your rest. I'd run over and babysit while you took a nap if

I could.

Patti

[Guest guest]

Thanks again for the input Patti.

Good idea about sneaking in other types of veg into the sneaky veg pancakes -

definitely will go slowly because she has a veggie radar!

The smoothie idea is great, however she hates bananas. Anything remotely banana

flavoured she spits out. Wonder if I could make a decent smoothie with other

frozen fruit and avocado. Do you think I should avoid excess fruit since she

still has runny poops?

Are you sure you can't pop up to Canada and babysit for a while?? ;-)

Kim

2 months dairy-free SCD for

3.5 yo ASD and 2 yo with digestive/behavioural issues

[Guest guest]

OOh.... Canada sounds nice. Sure! I'm on my way! LOL

Too bad about the bananas. What about making your own coconut milk as a base to

add a little frozen fruit and pureed veg to for a smoothie? Recipe on

pecanbread.com. It's good for the gut.... too soon for coconut itself, but

coconut milk would okay.... good fat/calorie source, too.

Patti

Re: Patti - My daughter's diet

Thanks again for the input Patti.

Good idea about sneaking in other types of veg into the sneaky veg pancakes -

definitely will go slowly because she has a veggie radar!

The smoothie idea is great, however she hates bananas. Anything remotely

banana flavoured she spits out. Wonder if I could make a decent smoothie with

other frozen fruit and avocado. Do you think I should avoid excess fruit since

she still has runny poops?

Are you sure you can't pop up to Canada and babysit for a while?? ;-)

Kim

2 months dairy-free SCD for

3.5 yo ASD and 2 yo with digestive/behavioural issues