Re: Please Help! Stages/ yogurt/ yeast questions

[Guest guest]

Tracey,

I am going to try to answer this post in more detail tomorrow. It's a tough

one.... the whole " never did intro " thing.

On the yogurt, I can tell you one thing you CAN'T do is put it in a baked good.

You'd kill off the good bacteria. You could try just mixing it into some other

food, or into juice even... you just can't cook it.

Have you been supplementing acidophilus all this time? (I hope... I hope).

I love those " nagging concerns " .... I personally think that's your instinct,

your higher self or whatever you want to call it, trying to get your attention.

I'm *starting* (at age 52) to learn to trust them more!

more tomorrow...

Patti

Please Help! Stages/ yogurt/ yeast questions

Hi Everyone.

After a year of dairy free scd (and 5 months prior to that of

gfcfsf), I am still afraid to introduce goat yogurt to my son Clay, 4, ASD.

I started him on scd after reading BTVC but not knowing about the

stages. I knew he'd never do the intro, so I went right into scd at what I now

know was about stage 3 (nut flours/butters, raw fruit). He was noticeably

improved over gfcfsf right away, yet he still has mushy poop except when he's on

an antifungal and antibiotic (like lamisil and flagyl). Over the year, he still

ate a pretty limited diet of mainly fruit, chicken, meatloaf and nut flour baked

goods, with very few veggies like green beans, broccoli and squash (and

sometimes avocado snuck into the meatloaf).

I have this nagging concern that since he never did the intro and the

subsequent stages, that his gut never really healed and that I've wasted a year.

Yet I know he won't do the intro and would never eat cooked fruit. And on the

few recent occasions that he's had an infraction, he had NO reaction at all, so

then I think there must be some gut healing. So confused....

Anyway, I'd really appreciate some input on these questions:

1. Can you heal the gut without following the stages, but it just takes

longer? Or must you do the stages to heal? (Elaine didn't come up with the

stages, but then her book is more aimed at the gastro-impaired people, not

specifically ASD kids, right?)

2. If not doing the stages, can you expedite healing the gut with scd legal

enzymes?(I'm considering adding enzymes vs. going back to intro and trying to do

the stages.)3. Does mushy poop mean the gut is still leaky? Or does it mean

that the gut may be healed but there is a yeast/bacteria problem?

4. Are there yeast/bacteria problems which scd alone can't resolve?

5. Is it better to introduce yogurt in its natural custardy form 1/8 tsp

and work up slowly, not knowing if any bad reaction is due to die-off or due to

an intolerance or allergy to dairy? Or is it better to introduce yogurt in a

baked item, like a bread? I know you'd lose the probiotic benefit if you baked

it, but wouldn't any reaction to a baked yogurt item be due to an

intolerance/allergy and not a die-off? It seems that so many people are afraid

of the yogurt and also have trouble interpreting whether the bad reaction is due

to die-off or intolerance, that it'd be great if there was another way to see if

they can tolerate the dairy without having to wonder if its die-off.

Well, thanks in advance to all who can help me decide what to do!

Tracey, mom of Clay,4, ASD, scd 8/05

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Patti:

I look forward to hearing what you think when you get a chance, but

wanted to clarify one thing I didn't make clear in my inquiry: I KNOW baking

with yogurt loses the probiotic effect (Clay takes one Kirkman's L-Bac. Acidof.

2x/day) I wanted to know if the INITIAL introduction of yogurt --in a child on

probiotics--would be easier done thru baked goods instead of natural form of

yogurt, which seems to trigger die-off reactions and/or intolerance symptoms.

It seems that many people whose children react badly to the

introduction of yogurt are confused as to whether the reaction means die-off or

a dairy intolerance/allergy. I was wondering if we could say TEMPORARILY " To

heck with the probiotic effect of yogurt in its natural form, let's try giving

Clay a piece of bread made with yogurt and see what happens. " I am assuming 2

things--and could be wrong, so please tell me-- that you wouldn't get die-off

from yogurt in baked goods, but only from yogurt in its natural form and that if

you had an intolerance or allergy to dairy, that you would react badly to dairy

in a baked good.

If those assumptions are true, then wouldn't it be easier to

introduce yogurt thru baked goods first, and if there is a reaction, than it

would indicate the child had a dairy intolerance or allergy. If there were no

reaction to the baked good, one could then proceed to introduce the yogurt in

its natural form very slowly and then, if there is a reaction to yogurt in that

form, you would know it was die-off and not have the confusion over whether its

die-off or intolerance?

I hope I'm not being too confusing here. It makes sense to me, but

what do I know (hee hee). I know the ultimate goal is to get him on the yogurt

in its natural form for its wonderful probiotic effects, but I'd be willing to

delay that if the baked good " trial " would answer the question of whether he has

a dairy intolerance/allergy.

I also fully expect and appreciate that the majority of responses may

say that " you must do intro and stages " but I hope they will be backed up with

some science, rather than saying " Elaine requires fanantical adherence " since

I'd love to learn more and want to make the best choices for my son. Is there

something about ASD kids that requires these " stages " ? I know Elaine didn't

recommend them in her book, but then the book admittedly is really focused on

the general population of people with gut issues and not ASD kids (except one

chapter). Does the general population heal without stages? I confess I am

hoping that someone knowledgeable will say (and back it up) that adding enzymes

and forging on can still heal the gut, though I am aware that for some with very

leaky guts, certain enzymes seem to irritate. Ugh!

Thanks again for any help.

Tracey

Patti wrote:

Tracey,

I am going to try to answer this post in more detail tomorrow. It's a tough

one.... the whole " never did intro " thing.

On the yogurt, I can tell you one thing you CAN'T do is put it in a baked good.

You'd kill off the good bacteria. You could try just mixing it into some other

food, or into juice even... you just can't cook it.

Have you been supplementing acidophilus all this time? (I hope... I hope).

I love those " nagging concerns " .... I personally think that's your instinct,

your higher self or whatever you want to call it, trying to get your attention.

I'm *starting* (at age 52) to learn to trust them more!

more tomorrow...

Patti

Please Help! Stages/ yogurt/ yeast questions

Hi Everyone.

After a year of dairy free scd (and 5 months prior to that of gfcfsf), I am

still afraid to introduce goat yogurt to my son Clay, 4, ASD.

I started him on scd after reading BTVC but not knowing about the stages. I knew

he'd never do the intro, so I went right into scd at what I now know was about

stage 3 (nut flours/butters, raw fruit). He was noticeably improved over gfcfsf

right away, yet he still has mushy poop except when he's on an antifungal and

antibiotic (like lamisil and flagyl). Over the year, he still ate a pretty

limited diet of mainly fruit, chicken, meatloaf and nut flour baked goods, with

very few veggies like green beans, broccoli and squash (and sometimes avocado

snuck into the meatloaf).

I have this nagging concern that since he never did the intro and the subsequent

stages, that his gut never really healed and that I've wasted a year. Yet I know

he won't do the intro and would never eat cooked fruit. And on the few recent

occasions that he's had an infraction, he had NO reaction at all, so then I

think there must be some gut healing. So confused....

Anyway, I'd really appreciate some input on these questions:

1. Can you heal the gut without following the stages, but it just takes longer?

Or must you do the stages to heal? (Elaine didn't come up with the stages, but

then her book is more aimed at the gastro-impaired people, not specifically ASD

kids, right?)

2. If not doing the stages, can you expedite healing the gut with scd legal

enzymes?(I'm considering adding enzymes vs. going back to intro and trying to do

the stages.)3. Does mushy poop mean the gut is still leaky? Or does it mean that

the gut may be healed but there is a yeast/bacteria problem?

4. Are there yeast/bacteria problems which scd alone can't resolve?

5. Is it better to introduce yogurt in its natural custardy form 1/8 tsp and

work up slowly, not knowing if any bad reaction is due to die-off or due to an

intolerance or allergy to dairy? Or is it better to introduce yogurt in a baked

item, like a bread? I know you'd lose the probiotic benefit if you baked it, but

wouldn't any reaction to a baked yogurt item be due to an intolerance/allergy

and not a die-off? It seems that so many people are afraid of the yogurt and

also have trouble interpreting whether the bad reaction is due to die-off or

intolerance, that it'd be great if there was another way to see if they can

tolerate the dairy without having to wonder if its die-off.

Well, thanks in advance to all who can help me decide what to do!

Tracey, mom of Clay,4, ASD, scd 8/05

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I just thought I'd throw in my two cents about the stages. While some asd

kids may not have terrible intestinal disease, I was appreciative of Patty's

recent comment that when the bad bacteria dies off, it takes some of the

cells with it. That leaves behind very new, tender tissue lining the gut.

I had not thought of that before. So if you don't do stages, that new

tissue is going to indoubtably become irritated. I think that many of us

don't even know if our kids have serious gut problems because the gi doctors

aren't interested in checking it out. I went to the neighborhood playground

this week with my friend across the street, and I was telling her about the

diet. I was explaining the science of why it works because she is a nurse,

and I knew that she would find it interesting. She asked if it worked on

Chrone's disease just out of curiousity because she was admitted to the

hospital in college for possible Chrone's. It turned out that nothing was

wrong, but she was telling me how people with Chrone's ulserative colitis,

or any other intestinal disorders gut's look. She said that if you look at

it through a scope when the testing is done, it looks like a cobblestone

street. I'd love to get someone to do a scope on my son to see what his

poor little small and large intestine look like, but I don't know if I'll

ever get a gi doctor to take a look. I thought this might help you

understand why the stages are important. I know that Patty will have a lot

more great info to share, too.

Meleah

scd 3 mths.

iel 3yrs, asd

Ethan 5yrs., Mark 1yr.

Please Help! Stages/ yogurt/ yeast questions

>

> Hi Everyone.

> After a year of dairy free scd (and 5 months prior to that of gfcfsf), I

> am still afraid to introduce goat yogurt to my son Clay, 4, ASD.

> I started him on scd after reading BTVC but not knowing about the stages.

> I knew he'd never do the intro, so I went right into scd at what I now

> know was about stage 3 (nut flours/butters, raw fruit). He was noticeably

> improved over gfcfsf right away, yet he still has mushy poop except when

> he's on an antifungal and antibiotic (like lamisil and flagyl). Over the

> year, he still ate a pretty limited diet of mainly fruit, chicken,

> meatloaf and nut flour baked goods, with very few veggies like green

> beans, broccoli and squash (and sometimes avocado snuck into the

> meatloaf).

> I have this nagging concern that since he never did the intro and the

> subsequent stages, that his gut never really healed and that I've wasted a

> year. Yet I know he won't do the intro and would never eat cooked fruit.

> And on the few recent occasions that he's had an infraction, he had NO

> reaction at all, so then I think there must be some gut healing. So

> confused....

> Anyway, I'd really appreciate some input on these questions:

> 1. Can you heal the gut without following the stages, but it just takes

> longer? Or must you do the stages to heal? (Elaine didn't come up with the

> stages, but then her book is more aimed at the gastro-impaired people, not

> specifically ASD kids, right?)

> 2. If not doing the stages, can you expedite healing the gut with scd

> legal enzymes?(I'm considering adding enzymes vs. going back to intro and

> trying to do the stages.)3. Does mushy poop mean the gut is still leaky?

> Or does it mean that the gut may be healed but there is a yeast/bacteria

> problem?

> 4. Are there yeast/bacteria problems which scd alone can't resolve?

> 5. Is it better to introduce yogurt in its natural custardy form 1/8 tsp

> and work up slowly, not knowing if any bad reaction is due to die-off or

> due to an intolerance or allergy to dairy? Or is it better to introduce

> yogurt in a baked item, like a bread? I know you'd lose the probiotic

> benefit if you baked it, but wouldn't any reaction to a baked yogurt item

> be due to an intolerance/allergy and not a die-off? It seems that so many

> people are afraid of the yogurt and also have trouble interpreting whether

> the bad reaction is due to die-off or intolerance, that it'd be great if

> there was another way to see if they can tolerate the dairy without having

> to wonder if its die-off.

> Well, thanks in advance to all who can help me decide what to do!

> Tracey, mom of Clay,4, ASD, scd 8/05

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Tracey...

I read your message from today and I understand now what you had in mind. Yes...

that makes total sense. Introducing the yogurt in baked goods first does seem

like it would give you a clear idea of whether he was tolerating the dairy...

because it would eliminate the triggering of die-off. Good plan.

Now, on to your questions from yesterday...

<< 1. Can you heal the gut without following the stages, but it just takes

longer? Or must you do the stages to heal? (Elaine didn't come up with the

stages, but then her book is more aimed at the gastro-impaired people, not

specifically ASD kids, right?)>>

I'm going to kind of work backwards through this one. First, to clarify (a

little)...many ASD kids ARE gastro-impaired. That's the whole point of SCD

helping them in the first place.

There may be other factors involved with autism, but the main reason all the ASD

families are here, doing this diet, is that the kids have gut issues. It's that

gut-brain connection that we're hoping to impact in a positive way. A properly

functioning gut helps the body naturally chelate heavy metals, too.

So, if there was not *some* degree of gastro-impairment, there would be no

reason to do this diet. The reason many ASD kids have improved somewhat on GF/CF

diets is that they have leaky guts... which allow those undigested proteins to

get into the bloodstream where they don't belong.. right? So, enough of that...

you get what I'm trying to say.

As far as the " Stages " go.... you are 100% correct. Elaine didn't write the

Stages... BUT... she DID come up with (or rather, Dr. Haas came up with) the

concept of keeping everything as EASY TO DIGEST as possible (my broken-record

mantra lately). Elaine DID stress that everyone needs to start with PEELED and

COOKED fruits and veggies in the beginning, in order to give the gut a chance to

heal properly.

No, Elaine didn't come up with the Stages chart. The Stages was something that

Jody Goddard designed as a helpful guide... in response to the constant

questions we kept getting on the list... " What foods should I introduce next? "

" What is easier to digest... squash or broccoli? " " My daughter will only eat raw

apples with the skin on...apples are 'legal', so isn't that okay? "

We have always stressed that it is ONLY a guideline, which *some* parents may

find helpful. It's for those who truly cannot figure out which is easier to

digest... a ripe peach vs. raw celery, etc. We know they're out there... because

we've had SOOOOO many posts asking about what might seem common sense to others!

Some of us who've been around here longer (Jody included) had the advantage of

having direct interaction with Elaine when she used to participate on the

lists... having her guidance and reading her answers to some of the same

questions, over and over.

She was adamant that for the best outcome possible, you should do the intro diet

(it's only two days)... AND you need to begin introducing the other foods in

peeled and cooked form.... and whatever else it takes to make foods as easy to

digest as possible (also pureeing for some kids who just don't chew well, etc.).

So... that's all the Stages chart is... it's something that makes sense for

some, and confuses others. I find those who are stymied by it are those who

approach it as something carved in stone... that they must stick strictly to.

The fact is, each person is a unique individual, so there is no way to create a

step-by-step guideline that is " one size fits all " .... but *generally* speaking,

that chart gives you an idea of which foods are easiest to digest, and therefore

would be best to introduce next, and in what FORM (ie; peeled, cooked,

deseeded). Jody just knew that it might help *some* parents to see foods laid

out that way... and for those parents, it's been a great tool. That's ALL it is,

though.... a tool. And it's a take-what-you-need-and-leave-the-rest kind of a

thing.

Thing is... if you really don't solidly GET the concept behind why Elaine

insisted on peeled/cooked/de-seeded... and easy-to-digest... you *may* jump the

gun and not get to the deeper level of healing you were hoping for.

For that reason, I would really HIGHLY recommend going back and finding maybe

TWO intro foods that he *might* be willing to eat for two days... or even just

for ONE day.... and using the intro for the purpose it was intended... clearing

the decks for healing. In a way, it's sort of like a fast.... and we HAVE had

kids here that would not eat ANY of the intro foods... and for example, had

nothing but grape juice for one or two days.

You've said that he " won't " eat the intro foods... and I can understand that...

but we *might* be able to find a way to do just one day of it (maybe grape juice

popsicles, grape juice jello, and chicken pancakes??). The hard part would be

getting him to accept the foods you say he refuses to eat unless raw... for the

beginning phases of the diet beyond the intro.

I would like to encourage you that many, MANY parents have had kids who were

extremely self-limiting and picky... who were surprized at what their kids did

finally accept... after given some of the " sneaky " recipe ideas... and just

sticking to their guns and making this firm commitment to do SCD the proper way.

I know it seems right now like your child is THE ONE child who will NEVER

change, but stranger things have happened!

There have been some kids that the ONLY way they'll accept cooked fruits is when

we take steamed chunks of fruit... apple, peach, pear, papaya, whatever... and

then FREEZING those chunks, then using them to make smoothies with banana,

coconut milk, etc... and the kid eats them as " ice cream " or when that smoothie

mixture is frozen into popsicle form. Parents have even slooooowwwwwlly started

adding a little cooked veggie to the smoothies (squash is a good candidate). OK,

anyway, you get the idea... sometimes where there is a will, there is a way and

I'm not saying that you haven't tried hard enough, just saying sometimes we all

have to be open to some pretty nutty ideas that are a little more outside our

comfort zone. It truly *might* be possible... given the right strategy. I know

one boy who would ONLY eat cooked apples in the form of steamed slices of apple

that were then frozen... and he would eat just the frozen slices (what he really

wanted was the CRUNCH).

<<2. If not doing the stages, can you expedite healing the gut with scd legal

enzymes?(I'm considering adding enzymes vs. going back to intro and trying to do

the stages.)>>

I certainly don't see anything wrong with using enzymes along with SCD. Many

parents do. I think if your goal is just to move as quickly through to advanced

foods as possible, then you may need to adjust your goals... or reassess them.

The real GOAL is to heal his gut, right? And whatever it takes... and however

long it takes... to do that may be the course you need to take. Enzymes *could*

be very helpful.

<<3. Does mushy poop mean the gut is still leaky? Or does it mean that the gut

may be healed but there is a yeast/bacteria problem?>>

If there is a yeast/bacteria problem... then the gut is not healed. I would say

mushy poop is not indicative of a " healed gut " .

<<4. Are there yeast/bacteria problems which scd alone can't resolve? >>

I only know of c.difficile as a bacteria that cannot be controlled by SCD. You

need medication to knock that one out. Some parents have also found that they

need to take extra measures to get yeast under control.... usually having the

best luck using natural anti-fungals... carrot juice/garlic, GSE, enzymes that

are specific to yeast control (Candex, etc.). SCD yogurt is also a key factor in

helping repopulate the gut with good flora, which take up the space the bad

pathogens used to inhabit and keeping opportunistic yeast from taking over.

OKAY... so I already addressed your last point about introducing yogurt and I

think this post has gone on long enough!

HTH,

Patti

[Guest guest]

I introduced goat cheese first for the very reasons you are listing.

I used cheese instead of baked goods with yogurt in them because I

didn't want to invest in a yogurt maker, yogurt starter and goat milk

(all expensive) only to find out that my kids couldn't eat it.

So, we introduced goat cheese first. We found that they tolerated it.

I then got that other stuff later.

As for your question about the stages. First of all, let me make it

clear that it was my idea to create the stages chart. You are correct

that Elaine did not create it and it is not in her book.

The stages chart is not a requirement. But the list was constantly

beseiged with questions that contained the words " what do I feed my

child next? " so often that the chart was created to help parents see

which foods are more easily tolerated in general.

So, the far left side of the chart contains the foods that are most

often tolerated early on in the diet. The far right side of the chart

contains the foods that are not generally tolerated until late in the

diet.

So, that said, no one has to follow the chart. But if a person has

been on the diet for several months and not much improvement has been

seen, I'd wager that the person is eating foods that are too difficult

for him/her to digest.

So, in the case of an individual who started with whatever appealed

and was allowed and who subsequently got much better and the GI

symptoms are gone- that's great. But frequently, especially with the

children, that is not what we see most often. The kids seem to need

to introduce foods more slowly to have a better chance of figuring out

what is tolerated and what is not.

So, if you are concerned that your child's stools do not look as good

as you would have hoped at this point in the diet, then I would

suggest that you remove the more difficult to digest foods and see if

you can get more improvement.

Jody

mom to -7 and -9

SCD 1/03