Re: Shoes Question

[Guest guest]

,

Never apologize for the volume of questions. We are

all here to help each other and no question is too

small or unwelcome.

My daughter Kelsey wears the Markell shoes and we have

absolutely no problems with them. She has never had a

blister, pressure sore or anything and we have no

difficulties with them. Many children have not been

successful with the Markells and do turn to the

MItchell shoes. I am sure someone with more

experience with those will help you with more

information there.

Jenni

--- juzzman09 wrote:

> This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan

> has just been put in

> his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of

> the setup

> (as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the

> assisting nurse

> what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

> My question is : Am I putting the cart before the

> horse in thinking I

> would possibly like my son to use the shoes

> given the

> positive responses that people have had to them? I

> doubt my Dr has

> used them but I still need to check. Given we have

> another 8-9 weeks

> before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get

> them for my son

> (we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is

> familiar with the

> shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And,

> finally, am I right in

> thinking that although some people have problems

> with the Markells,

> the vast majority are very happy using them?

> Sorry for the million questions but I know this is

> the only place I

> can ask them and the only place where I will get

> helpful responses.

>

> thanks

>

>

>

>

>

>

Jenni-

Mom to (10/31/01) and Kelsey (11/7/03)happy girl in DBB nights only for

left clubfoot.

__________________________________

Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

As far as I know the shoes are made to order

and take about 3 weeks (plus posting to Australia I

guess). I have no idea how it works in Australia but

they might not be covered by insurance and are quite

expensive compared to the Markells. Apparently the

s are necessary for atypical clubfeet but

otherwise the Markell shoes are just fine. My son has

been in the Markells for 3 years now and we never had

a problem with them.

Hope this helps,

with (*9/02)

and Alister (*9/02, RCF, Ponseti method, UK)

--- juzzman09 wrote:

> This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan

> has just been put in

> his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of

> the setup

> (as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the

> assisting nurse

> what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

> My question is : Am I putting the cart before the

> horse in thinking I

> would possibly like my son to use the shoes

> given the

> positive responses that people have had to them? I

> doubt my Dr has

> used them but I still need to check. Given we have

> another 8-9 weeks

> before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get

> them for my son

> (we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is

> familiar with the

> shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And,

> finally, am I right in

> thinking that although some people have problems

> with the Markells,

> the vast majority are very happy using them?

> Sorry for the million questions but I know this is

> the only place I

> can ask them and the only place where I will get

> helpful responses.

>

> thanks

>

>

>

>

>

>

___________________________________________________________

How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday

snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Hi. My son Aleksander has been using the Markell shoes for quite a

while now. He's 11 months, and other than a few problems at the

start of wearing the shoes, he's been just fine with them.

We did have a difficult time at first, but I really believe it was

due to user error on my part! It takes some time to get them on

properly, and if you don't, that's when there can be problems.

Unless there is a reason for using them to start, like atypical

clubfoot, you'll probably be fine trying the Markells first. The

's are always an option to try if the Markells don't work.

>

> This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan has just been put

in

> his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of the

setup

> (as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the assisting nurse

> what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

> My question is : Am I putting the cart before the horse in thinking

I

> would possibly like my son to use the shoes given the

> positive responses that people have had to them? I doubt my Dr has

> used them but I still need to check. Given we have another 8-9

weeks

> before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get them for my son

> (we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is familiar with the

> shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And, finally, am I right in

> thinking that although some people have problems with the Markells,

> the vast majority are very happy using them?

> Sorry for the million questions but I know this is the only place I

> can ask them and the only place where I will get helpful responses.

>

> thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

We have always used the shoes. Our daughter has atypical feet and

although we didn't know that at the time, we ordered them because we knew she

would be much more comfortable in them. We also knew that her feet were very

small and she wouldn't have fit in even the smallest Markell's so to avoid extra

weeks to months in casts we opted to purchase 's shoes and hope for the

best. We've never looked back. Even if her feet weren't atypical I don't think

we could ever take her feet out of these very comfortable shoes to put them in

the Markell's. It takes a few weeks to get them but it is worth it. At this

time there is no need for the Dr. to 'fit' them for you. When you order,

sends you an impression kit and you make an imprint of your child's foot between

castings. He then makes them custom to your child's imprint. If you would like

to use them I would order the impression kit soon. Then as your Dr. gets closer

to the end of casting you can get an impression between casts and have a chance

at having the shoes when it is time. Fitting them to your child's feet is a

pip. You can do that on your own but I'm sure your Dr will be interested in

seeing the new option.

Chris

Shoes Question

This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan has just been put in

his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of the setup

(as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the assisting nurse

what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

My question is : Am I putting the cart before the horse in thinking I

would possibly like my son to use the shoes given the

positive responses that people have had to them? I doubt my Dr has

used them but I still need to check. Given we have another 8-9 weeks

before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get them for my son

(we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is familiar with the

shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And, finally, am I right in

thinking that although some people have problems with the Markells,

the vast majority are very happy using them?

Sorry for the million questions but I know this is the only place I

can ask them and the only place where I will get helpful responses.

thanks

[Guest guest]

Hi, ,

Our daughter has been in the shoes since June. She doesn't

have atypical feet. We went to the s because she had persistent

red marks from the Markells (above and beyond the typical redness that

is often present with either type of shoes - and despite numerous modifications

made by the orthotist and our efforts to follow the advice in Kori's tips &

tricks

doc). We're just thrilled with the s. They are so much softer than the

Markells & in my opinion, a lot easier to put on than the Markells (although

some experienced Markell users may disagree with that).

As others have said, you probably will do just fine with the Markells and

they may be less expensive (depending on what your insurance covers).

That said, if I had to do it all over again, I would have gone straight to the

s to bypass the very difficult three weeks we had in the Markells.

All the best,

Kim

wrote:

,

We have always used the shoes. Our daughter has atypical feet and

although we didn't know that at the time, we ordered them because we knew she

would be much more comfortable in them. We also knew that her feet were very

small and she wouldn't have fit in even the smallest Markell's so to avoid extra

weeks to months in casts we opted to purchase 's shoes and hope for the

best. We've never looked back. Even if her feet weren't atypical I don't think

we could ever take her feet out of these very comfortable shoes to put them in

the Markell's. It takes a few weeks to get them but it is worth it. At this

time there is no need for the Dr. to 'fit' them for you. When you order,

sends you an impression kit and you make an imprint of your child's foot between

castings. He then makes them custom to your child's imprint. If you would like

to use them I would order the impression kit soon. Then as your Dr. gets closer

to the end of casting you can get an impression

between casts and have a chance at having the shoes when it is time. Fitting

them to your child's feet is a pip. You can do that on your own but I'm sure

your Dr will be interested in seeing the new option.

Chris

Shoes Question

This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan has just been put in

his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of the setup

(as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the assisting nurse

what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

My question is : Am I putting the cart before the horse in thinking I

would possibly like my son to use the shoes given the

positive responses that people have had to them? I doubt my Dr has

used them but I still need to check. Given we have another 8-9 weeks

before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get them for my son

(we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is familiar with the

shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And, finally, am I right in

thinking that although some people have problems with the Markells,

the vast majority are very happy using them?

Sorry for the million questions but I know this is the only place I

can ask them and the only place where I will get helpful responses.

thanks

[Guest guest]

HI

I can only comment on the Markells as started to wear his FAB in May

2003 and there were no s then. We have had no problems with them

after the first 48 hours or so of adapting to them, no blisters, etc.

Occasionally it would disturb his sleep, but that was fixed by widening the

bar, getting bigger shoes, etc. Nothing major at all.

A big plus for the Markells here in South Africa is that it's easy for us to

get them as there is an importer here. Some of the earlier shoes have had

broken straps after a short while and a few other problems, but they were

fixed quickly by the local supplier.

I asked Dr Ponseti almost a year ago if we should switch to s as

that's all he uses now in Iowa. He told me that it wasn't necessary if

was tolerating them well, which he is. He told me that he uses them as a

first option now because all children adapt so well to them - even atypical

- which is a big plus.

Here in South Africa all babies treated by Ponseti doctors are wearing

Markells. In 2 years I have been contacted by only 1 mother who had

struggled for months with them. She has now ordered the s. Someone

is bringing them back from the US for her after a business trip. That's out

of about 60-70 patients at a rough guess. The rest all adjusted well to the

Markells. So yes, most babies can wear the Markells without too much of a

problem.

As I don't have experience in s, I can't comment on how to get them,

fit them, etc.

I have to say that if I had another baby born now, with clubfoot, I'd also

be tempted to try the brace. From an emotional point of view, I

like the idea of them being so comfortable and easy for the child to wear.

But there's the fact that they are still custom-made and only available in

South Africa if you order them directly from .

Why don't you ask to speak to some parents whose children were treated by

your doctor, and also ask them what the orthotist is like.

I think a big part of the Markells working ok is 1. the feet being well

corrected, and 2. the shoes being well fitted and the bar adjust to the

correct width. If these two things are taken care of you shouldn't have a

problem with the Markells unless your child has atypical clubfoot, in which

case I wouldn't hesitate to import the s.

On a personal note, I have one big bugbear with the Markells, which is a

supply problem. The local orthotist only has stock up to size 5 and he

tells me that he's been ordering the bigger sizes since the end of last

year. They never arrive, only the smaller ones do. My son's almost 3 and

I'm starting to worry because he's outgrowing his 4.5 Markells. I need to

get to the bottom of this soon, or we'll be shoe-less!

Good luck with the rest of the casting and write whenever you have

questions, that's what this group is for!

and

24 Jan 2003, bilateral clubfoot

www.clubfoot.co.za

Moss

Steps Charity

www.steps.org.za

Shoes Question

This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan has just been put in

his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of the setup

(as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the assisting nurse

what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

My question is : Am I putting the cart before the horse in thinking I

would possibly like my son to use the shoes given the

positive responses that people have had to them? I doubt my Dr has

used them but I still need to check. Given we have another 8-9 weeks

before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get them for my son

(we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is familiar with the

shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And, finally, am I right in

thinking that although some people have problems with the Markells,

the vast majority are very happy using them?

Sorry for the million questions but I know this is the only place I

can ask them and the only place where I will get helpful responses.

thanks

[Guest guest]

--- Moss wrote:

> On a personal note, I have one big bugbear with the

> Markells, which is a supply problem. The local

> orthotist only has stock up to size 5 and he

> tells me that he's been ordering the bigger sizes

> since the end of last year. They never arrive,

> only the smaller ones do. My son's almost 3 and

> I'm starting to worry because he's outgrowing his

> 4.5 Markells. I need to get to the bottom of this

> soon, or we'll be shoe-less!

Hi ,

I've found this leaflet:

http://markellshoe.com/ponsetiflyer.pdf

on the Markell site, maybe your orthotist is ordering

the wrong type of shoe since they go up to size 9 and

I noticed that the pronator shoes only go up to a size

5...? At least, my son is wearing a size 6 1/2 now

(he's 3 years old) and we had no problem getting

them...

All the best,

with (*9/02)

and Alister (*9/02, RCF, Ponseti method, UK)

___________________________________________________________

How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday

snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Thanks , I'll mention that to him. I think he said he was ordering

under a different number - but it's definitely worth a try. It's reassuring

to know that they are out there!

Moss

Steps Charity

www.steps.org.za

RE: Shoes Question

--- Moss wrote:

> On a personal note, I have one big bugbear with the

> Markells, which is a supply problem. The local

> orthotist only has stock up to size 5 and he

> tells me that he's been ordering the bigger sizes

> since the end of last year. They never arrive,

> only the smaller ones do. My son's almost 3 and

> I'm starting to worry because he's outgrowing his

> 4.5 Markells. I need to get to the bottom of this

> soon, or we'll be shoe-less!

Hi ,

I've found this leaflet:

http://markellshoe.com/ponsetiflyer.pdf

on the Markell site, maybe your orthotist is ordering

the wrong type of shoe since they go up to size 9 and

I noticed that the pronator shoes only go up to a size

5...? At least, my son is wearing a size 6 1/2 now

(he's 3 years old) and we had no problem getting

them...

All the best,

with (*9/02)

and Alister (*9/02, RCF, Ponseti method, UK)

___________________________________________________________

How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday

snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

,

These are some good questions about the 's. When I asked my

daughter's doctor (we are in the states), he said he wouldn't

recommend them because he suspected that the local ortho fitters

wouldn't know what to do with them and if there were problems it

would probably be a pain to deal with because of the distance of the

company from our home, and if we had to send them back or something

like that we would have a wait with our daughter without shoes. This

is all his speculation since he doesn't really know how

handles the shoes. Nor do I, I'm just telling you what my

doctor told me. I'm assuming there are parents who are not in Iowa

who are using the 's. Hopefully one of them will tell you

how it really works across the miles. With that being said, some

children can wear the Markell's with limited problems or even no

problems. You won't really know until you try them, unless, of

course, your baby has atypical feet, which from what the other

parents are saying makes it impossible to wear the Markell's

successfully. I think it's never too early to start looking into

this. Hope you get the answers to all your questions!

Donna

>

> This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan has just been

put in

> his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of the

setup

> (as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the assisting nurse

> what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

> My question is : Am I putting the cart before the horse in

thinking I

> would possibly like my son to use the shoes given the

> positive responses that people have had to them? I doubt my Dr has

> used them but I still need to check. Given we have another 8-9

weeks

> before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get them for my

son

> (we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is familiar with the

> shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And, finally, am I right

in

> thinking that although some people have problems with the

Markells,

> the vast majority are very happy using them?

> Sorry for the million questions but I know this is the only place

I

> can ask them and the only place where I will get helpful responses.

>

> thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

Reading on here over the years I swear it seems we parents end up knowing more

about the FABs than the orthos who " specialize " in the things.

s.

Re: Shoes Question

,

These are some good questions about the 's. When I asked my

daughter's doctor (we are in the states), he said he wouldn't

recommend them because he suspected that the local ortho fitters

wouldn't know what to do with them and if there were problems it

would probably be a pain to deal with because of the distance of the

company from our home, and if we had to send them back or something

like that we would have a wait with our daughter without shoes. This

is all his speculation since he doesn't really know how

handles the shoes. Nor do I, I'm just telling you what my

doctor told me. I'm assuming there are parents who are not in Iowa

who are using the 's. Hopefully one of them will tell you

how it really works across the miles. With that being said, some

children can wear the Markell's with limited problems or even no

problems. You won't really know until you try them, unless, of

course, your baby has atypical feet, which from what the other

parents are saying makes it impossible to wear the Markell's

successfully. I think it's never too early to start looking into

this. Hope you get the answers to all your questions!

Donna

>

> This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan has just been

put in

> his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of the

setup

> (as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the assisting nurse

> what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

> My question is : Am I putting the cart before the horse in

thinking I

> would possibly like my son to use the shoes given the

> positive responses that people have had to them? I doubt my Dr has

> used them but I still need to check. Given we have another 8-9

weeks

> before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get them for my

son

> (we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is familiar with the

> shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And, finally, am I right

in

> thinking that although some people have problems with the

Markells,

> the vast majority are very happy using them?

> Sorry for the million questions but I know this is the only place

I

> can ask them and the only place where I will get helpful responses.

>

> thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

The really great thing about the 's is that you DON'T need the local

ortho at all. Sad that a Dr. wouldn't recommend them just because he didn't

know about them.

Re: Shoes Question

,

These are some good questions about the 's. When I asked my

daughter's doctor (we are in the states), he said he wouldn't

recommend them because he suspected that the local ortho fitters

wouldn't know what to do with them and if there were problems it

would probably be a pain to deal with because of the distance of the

company from our home, and if we had to send them back or something

like that we would have a wait with our daughter without shoes. This

is all his speculation since he doesn't really know how

handles the shoes. Nor do I, I'm just telling you what my

doctor told me. I'm assuming there are parents who are not in Iowa

who are using the 's. Hopefully one of them will tell you

how it really works across the miles. With that being said, some

children can wear the Markell's with limited problems or even no

problems. You won't really know until you try them, unless, of

course, your baby has atypical feet, which from what the other

parents are saying makes it impossible to wear the Markell's

successfully. I think it's never too early to start looking into

this. Hope you get the answers to all your questions!

Donna

>

> This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan has just been

put in

> his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of the

setup

> (as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the assisting nurse

> what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

> My question is : Am I putting the cart before the horse in

thinking I

> would possibly like my son to use the shoes given the

> positive responses that people have had to them? I doubt my Dr has

> used them but I still need to check. Given we have another 8-9

weeks

> before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get them for my

son

> (we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is familiar with the

> shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And, finally, am I right

in

> thinking that although some people have problems with the

Markells,

> the vast majority are very happy using them?

> Sorry for the million questions but I know this is the only place

I

> can ask them and the only place where I will get helpful responses.

>

> thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

In regards to your question about the fit, will send

you a sponge-like cube to make impressions of your son's feet. You

send back the impressions to him and the shoes that he makes are then

custom molded to fit.

Our daughter has very small but not atypical feet, and they

constantly slipped out of the Markells. But as other people have

said, the Markell shoes seem to work for some people so you might

want to try them first, as the s are considerably more

expensive. For us the Markell shoes were a total waste of time.

I don't think many doctors have experience with the

shoes so yours is not alone. The shoes take 2-3 wks to make;

sometimes the timing can be an issue. Our daughter wore the Markells

initially because we had not made the impressions of her feet yet

when the last casts came off. After 3 wks of continually slipping out

of her shoes, the dr. said they looked to be reverting somewhat, so

recasted them. During that 3 wks she was out of casts we had made the

impressions and sent them off to , so that when the

casts came off we had them ready for her to wear. The shoes

come adjusted in terms of approximate bar length for your age baby.

Our dr. even though he had never seen (or even heard of) the shoes

before said the bar length looked good, he only suggested they were

turned out (abducted) too far, at 90% which was further out than her

last casts. So we got a philips head screwdriver when we got home and

adjusted them.

You might want to call (or email since you are overseas) MD

Orthopedics and talk to them yourself, I'm sure they will be helpful.

Good luck,

Zoe

>

> This is my second post to the group. My son Ethan has just been put

in

> his first cast today. Reading all the mentions of the

setup

> (as opposed to the Markells) my wife had asked the assisting nurse

> what shoes my son's Dr uses - Markell.

> My question is : Am I putting the cart before the horse in thinking

I

> would possibly like my son to use the shoes given the

> positive responses that people have had to them? I doubt my Dr has

> used them but I still need to check. Given we have another 8-9

weeks

> before shoes (I think) do I have enough time to get them for my son

> (we are in Australia)? Do we need someone who is familiar with the

> shoes in order to achieve a proper fit? And, finally, am I right in

> thinking that although some people have problems with the Markells,

> the vast majority are very happy using them?

> Sorry for the million questions but I know this is the only place I

> can ask them and the only place where I will get helpful responses.

>

> thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well not exactly good to go....the parent does need to double check the

out ward rotation and width of the bar for accuracy.... but even those things

are easily done at home by any lay-person (aka us parents!)....but you're right,

the shoes are easy to use, and don't require an ortho at all because they're

custom fit to your child. One tiny difference is that most shoes are

being set now days at 60 degrees outward instead of the old standard 70 degrees,

but the shoulder width of the bar remains the same for both styles (you know

this but I mention it for new folks).

s.

----- Original Message ----- They are immediately comfortable and good to go.

The shoes really are simple and again, made to order for YOUR CHILD'S foot.

Three buckles and you're good to go. Not like the Markell's which in essence is

like purchasing a shoe off the rack that only come in just a few sizes and one

style that is supposed to fit everyone.

Chris

[Guest guest]

when you say this do you assume the parent has had some

familiarity with the shoes or not? I just assumed you needed an Ortho

to fit them. At a minimum, I assume the Dr has to check them or am I

wrong.

thanks

BTW the answers everyone have been providing have been fantastic. I am

very happy we have found this group that has people so informed and

motivated (for obvious reasons, I guess). But thanks again. and

(parents of Ethan - bilateral CF, Melbourne Australia)

>

> The really great thing about the 's is that you DON'T need

the local ortho at all. Sad that a Dr. wouldn't recommend them just

because he didn't know about them.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not but in my experience the shoes last several months.

Everett is 25 months and only going in to his 3rd pair now.

s.

thanks Chis.

Ok, next logical question is how often do you have to make an

impression given your childs feet are growing?

---

[Guest guest]

No ortho needed to fit them. sends you an impression kit when you order

and he uses that to make your shoes custom. When you get them they fit just

fine. No Dr or orthodist needed. Even when you aren't familiar with them. No

Dr. needs to check them. They are immediately comfortable and good to go.

The shoes really are simple and again, made to order for YOUR CHILD'S foot.

Three buckles and you're good to go. Not like the Markell's which in essence is

like purchasing a shoe off the rack that only come in just a few sizes and one

style that is supposed to fit everyone.

Chris

Re: Shoes Question

when you say this do you assume the parent has had some

familiarity with the shoes or not? I just assumed you needed an Ortho

to fit them. At a minimum, I assume the Dr has to check them or am I

wrong.

thanks

BTW the answers everyone have been providing have been fantastic. I am

very happy we have found this group that has people so informed and

motivated (for obvious reasons, I guess). But thanks again. and

(parents of Ethan - bilateral CF, Melbourne Australia)

>

> The really great thing about the 's is that you DON'T need

the local ortho at all. Sad that a Dr. wouldn't recommend them just

because he didn't know about them.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks Chis.

Ok, next logical question is how often do you have to make an

impression given your childs feet are growing?

> >

> > The really great thing about the 's is that you DON'T need

> the local ortho at all. Sad that a Dr. wouldn't recommend them just

> because he didn't know about them.

>

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've done the impression once. The first two pair were done by my tracing her

foot and sending that because he wasn't doing impressions at that time.

is 21 mos and is on her third pair. We went from 'so tiny there wasn't even a

size range to assign to it' to size 0 and now size 2. He makes them with some

room to grow so they last awhile. I will probably send an impression with my

next request for shoes unless she no longer needs them.

Chris

Re: Shoes Question

thanks Chis.

Ok, next logical question is how often do you have to make an

impression given your childs feet are growing?

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> > The really great thing about the 's is that you DON'T need

> the local ortho at all. Sad that a Dr. wouldn't recommend them just

> because he didn't know about them.

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