Re: obesity is a choice?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/17/2003 2:59:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jlw@...

writes:

> Hasn't it occurred to any of you who are being so judgmental

> on the subject that your amazing ability to make " good

> choices " and " become accountable " came about after a surgeon

> rearranged your insides?

>

I am going to skip responding to the bulk of this post, since it does not

actually seem that the poster read my post, where I consistently talked about

my choices, and those of my friends. So, I am also going to assume that the

poster has also never read anything else I've written about my ongoing

struggle and frequent failures to make good food choices, even post-op. I

simply cannot abide our societal obsession with not being accountable - I am

fully and completely accountable for what I put in my mouth. What my body

opts to do with that food is another issue, controlled by metabolism,

surgery, etc. But then again, I take accountability for everything I do,

not just food, and that also makes me unusual.

To be honest, this particular post has left me thoroughly and completely

disgusted. I think I'll take a couple of weeks off from the list before I

say something I'll regret even more than usual! Y'all take care and I'll see

you in a few weeks.

Kate

[Guest guest]

Amen sister...amen.

obesity is a choice?

>>Hasn't it occurred to any of you who are being so judgmental

on the subject that your amazing ability to make " good

choices " and " become accountable " came about after a surgeon

rearranged your insides?

Jeri

[Guest guest]

>> My (rearranged) body

is cooperating with me for the first time. I am putting

less willpower, less pain, less struggle into my daily

eating choices, and having infinitely better (and easier)

results. It would be dishonest to claim that the credit is

due to better choices, other than the choice to have the

surgery.

I think you may have missed the entire point of what was being said, and no

one was judging anyone -- it was being suggested that for MANY of us, it IS

a matter of choice to be obese or not.

I don't know how far out you are from surgery, or maybe you are one of the

lucky ones who no longer has to make choices on a daily basis and you stay

thin without any work. If so, that's great. At 3+ years out and 50 pounds

more than my lowest post-op weight, I can entirely blame MY CHOICES for

where I am. Losing is not easier, it's harder. My results are not easier, my

choices are harder than ever.

I don't judge anyone else, but I know that when I talk to people who are in

the same boat I am in, it is almost always due to our choices, our poor

choices. We snack, we graze, we eat too many carbs, we gain weight.

Certainly we know better! Certainly we don't have the willpower to stop any

more than we did pre-op!

I can't blame anyone but myself for where I am now. My best friend had

exactly the same surgery I did, with the same surgeon, 6 months before I

did. She's stayed at goal weight. I haven't. She doesn't eat carbs. I do.

Having the surgery didn't give me the ability to judge anyone but myself --

and I can see who the guilty party is. It's me.

~~ Lyn G

[Guest guest]

Funny, Lyn, I read it just the opposite. (This is one of the challenges of

email.)

Like you, I'm over three years out, would like to lose more, very much have

to work for every pound. But there is no way I would be maintaining a 130

pound weight loss without WLS. I did feel the original poster was being

quite harsh regarding MO people...and Lord knows the MO suffer enough in our

society.

Point (this time) is that sometimes email isn't the best way to communicate,

especially when it's something we feel so passionately about. It is my

deepest hope that we all still have compassion for the MO who still suffer,

*even* for those who suffer at their own hand.

IMHO, it is possible for personal responsibility and compassion to walk

hand-in-hand on this journey.

Kimba

RE: obesity is a choice?

>> My (rearranged) body

is cooperating with me for the first time. I am putting

less willpower, less pain, less struggle into my daily

eating choices, and having infinitely better (and easier)

results. It would be dishonest to claim that the credit is

due to better choices, other than the choice to have the

surgery.

I think you may have missed the entire point of what was being said, and no

one was judging anyone -- it was being suggested that for MANY of us, it IS

a matter of choice to be obese or not.

I don't know how far out you are from surgery, or maybe you are one of the

lucky ones who no longer has to make choices on a daily basis and you stay

thin without any work. If so, that's great. At 3+ years out and 50 pounds

more than my lowest post-op weight, I can entirely blame MY CHOICES for

where I am. Losing is not easier, it's harder. My results are not easier, my

choices are harder than ever.

I don't judge anyone else, but I know that when I talk to people who are in

the same boat I am in, it is almost always due to our choices, our poor

choices. We snack, we graze, we eat too many carbs, we gain weight.

Certainly we know better! Certainly we don't have the willpower to stop any

more than we did pre-op!

I can't blame anyone but myself for where I am now. My best friend had

exactly the same surgery I did, with the same surgeon, 6 months before I

did. She's stayed at goal weight. I haven't. She doesn't eat carbs. I do.

Having the surgery didn't give me the ability to judge anyone but myself --

and I can see who the guilty party is. It's me.

~~ Lyn G

Homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graduate-OSSG

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[Guest guest]

>> It is my deepest hope that we all still have compassion for the MO who

still suffer,

*even* for those who suffer at their own hand.

I would hope so too. I see people every day and want to tell them that there

is another way, and it might work for them. Compared to where I was, it's

worked for me. What I was reading in the previous post was someone saying

that it was only the surgery that made the difference, and for that person,

that might be true. For me, it's still not enough, and that is my fault. I

would hope that I don't go back to where I was, but if I do, it will be my

fault. Surgery did not even help me maintain. I never saw goal, never even

got close. I'm still better off than I was, but as I watch the scale creep

up, and feel helpless to stop making bad choices, I have to admit that, if I

had never made the wrong choices post-op, if I had listened to what I was

told and left the carbs and the snacking alone, I wouldn't be struggling

now. That won't make me any less compassionate for any MO person. I am still

MO according to any chart you'd care to consult. But I also won't say it is

completely without choice.

~~ Lyn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/17/2003 8:02:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,

kateseidel@... writes:

> I think I'll take a couple of weeks off from the list before I

> say something I'll regret even more than usual! Y'all take care and I'll

> see

> you in a few weeks

Kate I also do that. Taking some time off from posting makes me more

appreciative of this group. It also gives me time to ponder what caused me

the distress.

Fay Bayuk

**300/173

10/23/01

Dr.

Open RNY 150 cm

Click for My Profile

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HREF= " http://obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/profile.phtml?N=Bayuk951061008 " >http:\

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[Guest guest]

> At 3+ years out and 50 pounds

> more than my lowest post-op weight, I can entirely blame MY CHOICES for

> where I am. Losing is not easier, it's harder. My results are not easier, my

> choices are harder than ever.

It is harder than just after surgery when everything seems

easy and the weight just falls off. If it were even the

same level of difficulty as -before- surgery, you would

have regained all your lost and some extra for good measure

(same result as 95% of diets). For most people, the surgery

does help, some. For most people, the surgery does not

insure that we lose everything we want or need to.

I am a bit over three years post-surgery. I lost almost all

of the weight within the first year, and I could still stand

to lose almost 100 lbs. (I said I was thinner, not that I

was thin. <g>) On the other hand, I haven't regained

-anything-, and I still lose a few pounds once in a while.

I wasn't indicating that life is completely smooth post-op,

but I never could have maintained a 150+ lb loss without the

surgery. The result is -not- due to my willpower or wisdom

or improved self-knowledge. It's due to the surgery.

I knew what were good food choices before surgery. I know

what are good food choices now. Now it is at least ten

times easier* -not- to eat either the quantities of food I

did before or the the junk I did before. Not because I'm

smarter. Not because I'm trying harder. But because my

body is changed. Maybe not as much as I'd like it to be

(OK, definitely not as much), but enough so that I don't

assume that someone fatter than me is either dumber than me

or weaker than me. Nor do I assume that someone thinner is

smarter or has greater willpower.

And yes, it follows that I don't value myself depending on

how much weight I've lost or how " wise " my eating choices

have been. (Or at least, I try very, very hard not to.)

*ten times easier does not mean easy. It simply means

-less- difficult.

> it was being suggested that for MANY of us, it IS

> a matter of choice to be obese or not.

I know what was being suggested. I simply disagree

entirely.

I pretty much believe that we can control our weight with

willpower the same way we can control our breathing. There

are individuals who can hold their breath five minutes or

more under water. I'd have drowned if held under that

long. I guess you'd consider that a choice, because trying

to breath water is certainly not a wise choice. Not being

able to refrain from doing so is certainly indicative of a

lack of willpower.

Just because I now have rudimentary diving gear doesn't mean

I think it right to be scornful of someone else who is

drowning. Besides the fact that it just isn't -fair-, who

knowns when the oxygen in my tank is going to run out ...

Jeri

> I think you may have missed the entire point of what was being said, and no

> one was judging anyone -- it was being suggested that for MANY of us, it IS

> a matter of choice to be obese or not.

>

> I don't know how far out you are from surgery, or maybe you are one of the

> lucky ones who no longer has to make choices on a daily basis and you stay

> thin without any work. If so, that's great. At 3+ years out and 50 pounds

> more than my lowest post-op weight, I can entirely blame MY CHOICES for

> where I am. Losing is not easier, it's harder. My results are not easier, my

> choices are harder than ever.

>

> I don't judge anyone else, but I know that when I talk to people who are in

> the same boat I am in, it is almost always due to our choices, our poor

> choices. We snack, we graze, we eat too many carbs, we gain weight.

> Certainly we know better! Certainly we don't have the willpower to stop any

> more than we did pre-op!

>

> I can't blame anyone but myself for where I am now. My best friend had

> exactly the same surgery I did, with the same surgeon, 6 months before I

> did. She's stayed at goal weight. I haven't. She doesn't eat carbs. I do.

>

> Having the surgery didn't give me the ability to judge anyone but myself --

> and I can see who the guilty party is. It's me.

>

> ~~ Lyn G

>

--

jlw@...

[Guest guest]

hello all. I've been lurking here for a while, listening and

learning. I will be 3 years out from an open rny in July 03, and

although I never got to my doctor's goal weight of 115, I am a happy

size 6 at about 135. My brain would like to lose to 115, but it

doesn't seem that my body wants to so...okay. I felt I needed to

jump into this conversation because, Lyn, I am one of the lucky ones

who no longer has cravings for 'bad' foods. I was a complete

chocoholic before surgery, and now I don't have the slightest desire

for chocolate...can say no thank you to a box of See's candy without

a second thought. the same with hamburgers, fries, ice cream, etc.

Most of the t.v. commercials for Carl's Jr., etc., look disgusting to

me. So...why is this? Why did some of us get so lucky and others

still struggle? One thing I am sure of...and I get alot of arguments

on this point, so, I'm ready for more...is that it is something

physical, and not something in our heads. At least I can say, that

for me, personally, it is something physical, and not something in my

head. Always before when I lost weight (which I did regularly, using

more and more extreme diets) my body would fight me to put the weight

back on...slowing my metabolism, increasing my appetite and craving

high calorie foods. Real, physical cravings. That doesn't happen to

me anymore, although it does continue to happen to many who have wls.

I believe that if science could understand this phenomenon, they will

truly begin to understand obesity. Now they still have no clue.My

two cents. Anne

> >> If one person can

> eat more, and desires to eat more, and has a body screaming

> for all the stuff we shouldn't eat, does that mean the

> person who is happily sated with less food and doesn't crave

> the " bad " stuff is making wiser choices? I don't think so.

> She is just luckier.

>

> There's where choice comes in, from my point of view, because I do

not know

> one single post-op, other than those who cannot stop losing and are

ill, who

> can say they never crave the bad stuff. Every single post-op I

knowstill has

> the struggle, but the successful ones are making the right choices,

and the

> unsuccessful ones are not. Maybe there are exceptions, but I don't

know any

> of them, except for people who are so ill from other complications

that

> eating makes them sick. Those who can eat normally struggle, if not

daily,

> at least often, not to make the wrong choices. Some are really good

at

> making those choices, some have really got it straight in their

heads and

> the good choices are becoming more automatic. But they are all

making

> choices not to out-eat their surgeries. The thinnest, healthiest,

most

> successful post-ops I know still have to choose, meal by meal, day

by day,

> to eat right.

>

> >> So saying that that person " chooses to be obese " is not only

> unkind, it is incorrect.

>

> In many cases I believe it is partially correct, in much the same

sense that

> some people have to choose to be sober or drug-free. Some of us

have an

> easier time of it than others, and certainly the surgery gives us

an edge to

> start with. But I know post-ops who never reached goal because they

never

> stopped choosing pie over protein -- like addicts or alcoholics,

it's a hard

> choice, sometimes an impossible choice, but still a choice. Not so

much that

> we choose obesity, but that we choose a behavior that can lead to

obesity,

> or prevent us from ever getting away from it.

>

> I was in WalMart a while ago and saw a new product, a dessert kit

all in one

> box. No one made me buy it. But I bought it. " for the kids " -- yeah

right.

> Now I could have sashayed over to the pharmacy department and

bought a

> protein bar instead, but I didn't. If I eat the dessert and gain

weight,

> whose fault is it? Not the surgery's. Can the surgery stop me?

Nope. Can

> anyone stop me but me? Not bloody likely. In that case, and in many

cases

> like it, it's a choice to be obese rather than give up the

forbidden fruit.

> Could I be just as satisfied (mechanically speaking) with a healthy

food?

> Sure. But it's not about being full. It's never about being full. I

will

> never be full, until my head agrees with my pouch, and my head is

making the

> choices.

>

> ~~ Lyn G