Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 , Good luck with it all. The fact that CT agreed to band your child means that they believe that there is a chance for change. Did they tell you how many band he will need. Are they going for just one band? Which CT location are you using? Leila,Maysa, 16.5 mo, DOC band Grad 5/29/09www.mymaysa.wordpress.com From: mathison039 <mathison039@...>Subject: Banding at 22 monthsPlagiocephaly Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 4:50 PM Hello everyone,My wife and I just banded our son, Jr., at the beginning of June at the ripe old age of 22 months (21 months adjusted). He's loving his helmet (not trying to take it off or anything) and his twin sister (helmet-less) is (surprisingly) not trying to remove it, either. Weather's been cool - no issues with sweating or smell almost one week in.Anyway, long story short, we made mistakes in the past (relying on others instead of ourselves) and are obviously late in the game. We have realistic expectations (realizing it is very likely we'll get no change due to the late age). Here are 's initial stats, as I recall them:Traditional Cranial Vault: 14 mmCranial Vault: 8 mmMid Face: 0 mmSkull Base: 3 mmCephalic Index: 90%We are using CT (Doc Band), and they've been great. Wish we didn't wait until this late to meet them, but unfortunately we can't travel back in time and schedule an earlier appt....I might have the cranial vault and traditional cranial vault numbers mixed up (reversed) above......Fingers crossed, but realistic. Obviously a good chance our ending numbers will look similar to our beginning numbers, but who knows - maybe we'll be able to win the lottery and improve some of these numbers a mm or two......I'd be thrilled with that. Sr. Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Leila, Thanks a lot for the words of encouragement. We definitely communicated (when calling them for the initial appointment) that we understood the odds involved at this point. I think that helped in being able to proceed. They actually seemed more hopeful than I expected. But I am still going in expecting little to no change. Reading these boards, I see children had success getting banded at about 21 months in one case (second band, I believe) and another case on the " older plagio " board where a person had some improvement even at 24 months (I think it was 2 - 3 mm of improvement, which would be great if we could achieve similar results). But I also noted there were many who posted who had little to no measureable improvement at this point (including some with no improvement who helmeted much younger than my son). We are using the Chicago-area offices of CT. The people there are great. At this point, only one band was discussed (to be used for 16 weeks, if I recall correctly). If we get to the point where they mention that another band would be beneficial, I would be thrilled (as it would likely mean we were still experiencing some sort of change towards the end of this band). I took , Jr. and his twin sister to a park yesterday, and he fell face first from one level of a big toy to another. Luckily, the main landing point was on his forehead, or should I say, on his helmet. What looked to be really painful was not at all - he got up right away and played some more. And the helmet was fine, too. So, no matter how things turned out, the helmet's already helped him! By the way, I just looked at your daughter's site, and she is looking great! You should be proud of everything you did for her. , Sr. Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) > > > From: mathison039 <mathison039@...> > Subject: Banding at 22 months > Plagiocephaly > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 4:50 PM > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone, > > My wife and I just banded our son, Jr., at the beginning of June at the ripe old age of 22 months (21 months adjusted). He's loving his helmet (not trying to take it off or anything) and his twin sister (helmet-less) is (surprisingly) not trying to remove it, either. Weather's been cool - no issues with sweating or smell almost one week in. > > Anyway, long story short, we made mistakes in the past (relying on others instead of ourselves) and are obviously late in the game. We have realistic expectations (realizing it is very likely we'll get no change due to the late age). > > Here are 's initial stats, as I recall them: > Traditional Cranial Vault: 14 mm > Cranial Vault: 8 mm > Mid Face: 0 mm > Skull Base: 3 mm > Cephalic Index: 90% > > We are using CT (Doc Band), and they've been great. Wish we didn't wait until this late to meet them, but unfortunately we can't travel back in time and schedule an earlier appt.... > > I might have the cranial vault and traditional cranial vault numbers mixed up (reversed) above...... > > Fingers crossed, but realistic. Obviously a good chance our ending numbers will look similar to our beginning numbers, but who knows - maybe we'll be able to win the lottery and improve some of these numbers a mm or two......I'd be thrilled with that. > > Sr. > Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 , How is it going with little ? It's now been about a month, correct? Has there been any correction and have they had to shave any foam off yet? I'm curious because I have an appointment in a week for a consult at CT for . She'll be 22.5 months by then. We are going to the office in VA. I'm not sure whether they'll agree to band her, but they didn't say anything about her age when I called and asked for the consult. To be honest, I'm not even 100 percent sure that I want to do another band, but I'm just not happy with our end result. I guess I'd also like a second opinion about her severity, how noticable it looks, etc, as well as another set of measurements. I put her STARband on her at night following her graduation for about a month because I was worried about regression. So, it's possible that there was some small additional improvement or that I was right about the regression and it's worse now. Or, it may be the same, but I think that the measurements will help me. Of course, these will be hand measurements versus a computer scan, but I'd still like to know. I think that some people may think that I'm crazy or obsessed or something, but I can clearly see her brachy from about a 45 degree angle from the back. From the front, I honestly see little and so perhaps I should just be happy that it's not visible from that angle. The sides are also not too bad, although there is less rounding than I see on most others. So, I'll be meeting with the CT office in VA on the 13th and will need to make a quick decision about whether to do the second band. I know that insurance will not cover it so it'll be $3600 out of pocket. If I don't band, then I may look into more CST or some of the other treatments that are discussed on the older plagio list. Some use something like activator chiro, but I know that our insurance wouldn't cover chiro services so that would be out of pocket as well. Or, I could just let her head grow and hope that I (and she) don't regret it. I would really hate for her to come back to me as a teenager and ask me why her head is shaped different than her friends. For girls, hair may cover more, but girls are also judged more on their appearance than boys. Banding at 22 months> Plagiocephaly > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 4:50 PM> > > > > > > > > Hello everyone,> > My wife and I just banded our son, Jr., at the beginning of June at the ripe old age of 22 months (21 months adjusted). He's loving his helmet (not trying to take it off or anything) and his twin sister (helmet-less) is (surprisingly) not trying to remove it, either. Weather's been cool - no issues with sweating or smell almost one week in.> > Anyway, long story short, we made mistakes in the past (relying on others instead of ourselves) and are obviously late in the game. We have realistic expectations (realizing it is very likely we'll get no change due to the late age). > > Here are 's initial stats, as I recall them:> Traditional Cranial Vault: 14 mm> Cranial Vault: 8 mm> Mid Face: 0 mm> Skull Base: 3 mm> Cephalic Index: 90%> > We are using CT (Doc Band), and they've been great. Wish we didn't wait until this late to meet them, but unfortunately we can't travel back in time and schedule an earlier appt....> > I might have the cranial vault and traditional cranial vault numbers mixed up (reversed) above......> > Fingers crossed, but realistic. Obviously a good chance our ending numbers will look similar to our beginning numbers, but who knows - maybe we'll be able to win the lottery and improve some of these numbers a mm or two......I'd be thrilled with that.> > Sr.> Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted)> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Hi , I didn't know for sure that you were taking for a consult at CT. Their approach is different and they will take some pictures of her. I think the pictures are what I like the most. Their hand measurements are just that, hand measurements, not as accurate as the STAR scanner in my opinion. I think that in the month following Maysa's graduation she went through a growth spurt. Her shoes don't fit anymore and I had to get her a new pair. Her dresses are getting shorter, she has gained over two pounds in a month and it seems like her head has gotten bigger and wider, I am afraid to say... It is not flat in the back, just wider in the front, and I see it. Oh well, keep me posted on what CT has to say. Good luck, Leila, Maysa, 17.5 mo, DOC band Grad 5/29/09www.mymaysa.wordpress.com From: melanie.watson@... <melanie.watson@...>Subject: Re: Banding at 22 monthsPlagiocephaly Date: Monday, July 6, 2009, 8:50 AM , How is it going with little ? It's now been about a month, correct? Has there been any correction and have they had to shave any foam off yet? I'm curious because I have an appointment in a week for a consult at CT for . She'll be 22.5 months by then. We are going to the office in VA. I'm not sure whether they'll agree to band her, but they didn't say anything about her age when I called and asked for the consult. To be honest, I'm not even 100 percent sure that I want to do another band, but I'm just not happy with our end result. I guess I'd also like a second opinion about her severity, how noticable it looks, etc, as well as another set of measurements. I put her STARband on her at night following her graduation for about a month because I was worried about regression. So, it's possible that there was some small additional improvement or that I was right about the regression and it's worse now. Or, it may be the same, but I think that the measurements will help me. Of course, these will be hand measurements versus a computer scan, but I'd still like to know. I think that some people may think that I'm crazy or obsessed or something, but I can clearly see her brachy from about a 45 degree angle from the back. From the front, I honestly see little and so perhaps I should just be happy that it's not visible from that angle. The sides are also not too bad, although there is less rounding than I see on most others. So, I'll be meeting with the CT office in VA on the 13th and will need to make a quick decision about whether to do the second band. I know that insurance will not cover it so it'll be $3600 out of pocket. If I don't band, then I may look into more CST or some of the other treatments that are discussed on the older plagio list. Some use something like activator chiro, but I know that our insurance wouldn't cover chiro services so that would be out of pocket as well. Or, I could just let her head grow and hope that I (and she) don't regret it. I would really hate for her to come back to me as a teenager and ask me why her head is shaped different than her friends. For girls, hair may cover more, but girls are also judged more on their appearance than boys. Banding at 22 months> Plagiocephaly@ groups. com> Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 4:50 PM> > > > > > > > > Hello everyone,> > My wife and I just banded our son, Jr., at the beginning of June at the ripe old age of 22 months (21 months adjusted). He's loving his helmet (not trying to take it off or anything) and his twin sister (helmet-less) is (surprisingly) not trying to remove it, either. Weather's been cool - no issues with sweating or smell almost one week in.> > Anyway, long story short, we made mistakes in the past (relying on others instead of ourselves) and are obviously late in the game. We have realistic expectations (realizing it is very likely we'll get no change due to the late age). > > Here are 's initial stats, as I recall them:> Traditional Cranial Vault: 14 mm> Cranial Vault: 8 mm> Mid Face: 0 mm> Skull Base: 3 mm> Cephalic Index: 90%> > We are using CT (Doc Band), and they've been great. Wish we didn't wait until this late to meet them, but unfortunately we can't travel back in time and schedule an earlier appt....> > I might have the cranial vault and traditional cranial vault numbers mixed up (reversed) above......> > Fingers crossed, but realistic. Obviously a good chance our ending numbers will look similar to our beginning numbers, but who knows - maybe we'll be able to win the lottery and improve some of these numbers a mm or two......I'd be thrilled with that.> > Sr.> Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted)> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 , You're right - its been a little over a month already. Time goes really fast! A not-so-quick summary of how things have gone so far (I apologize for the length): * DOC band started 6/3/09 * First follow-up at CT on 6/22/09. Shavings occurred on both on one side of the front and the oppostive side of the back (the " shorter " sides). Comparing to a " popsicle " of his head, all of us agreed his widest portions seemed less " pointed " . Also, the longest portion in back seemed to be better centered in the back (versus slightly on the non-flat side). Nothing dramatic, but seemed we could see slight improvements visually in those areas. No measurements or computer scans taken though, other than a tape measure of his head circumference which (unfortunately) showed little or no growth - but she mentioned with his age this is quite normal for not yet 3 weeks of banding. Not sure why things looked better with little or no growth....weird. Thought we'd need growth for that to happen. Hope I was not imagining things but it does seem somewhat better.... * My own " pictures from the top " were taken on 6/23/09 by me after a bath (before putting the band back on) and I compared them to pictures taken by me in May (making measurements using a Photo program). The " average " of the measurements seemed to confirm that there might be minor improvements in the cephalic index and the diagonal differences between the May pictures and the June ones. Of course, subject to measurement error by a non-expert at this sort of stuff * Next follow-up at CT is on 7/13/09. Summary: Feel like we are seeing minor improvements after just a few weeks (now nearing 5 weeks), which is honestly what we hoped to see (but honestly didn't expect) once we were through the entire banding period (still not sure how long this will last at this point). We were fully prepared for no changes, but it was worth the risk (and seems we might be getting a bit lucky so far). My thought is the chance for any improvement, no matter how minor, is worth the time and money spent (admittedly we're lucky to both have good, high-paying and flexible jobs to allow us to do this - not sure what we'd do if we were less fortunate in this regard). I guess my advice for you would be to do exactly what you are doing: go for the initial consultation, see what the measurements are, and then make a decision from there (if you'd like to DOC band, you might need to convince them that you are realistic in your expectations (i.e. there might very well be no change) to convince them to agree to it). Sr. Jr. - 23 months old - Doc Band 6/3/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) > > > > > > From: mathison039 <mathison039@> > > Subject: Banding at 22 months > > Plagiocephaly > > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 4:50 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > My wife and I just banded our son, Jr., at the beginning of June at the ripe old age of 22 months (21 months adjusted). He's loving his helmet (not trying to take it off or anything) and his twin sister (helmet-less) is (surprisingly) not trying to remove it, either. Weather's been cool - no issues with sweating or smell almost one week in. > > > > Anyway, long story short, we made mistakes in the past (relying on others instead of ourselves) and are obviously late in the game. We have realistic expectations (realizing it is very likely we'll get no change due to the late age). > > > > Here are 's initial stats, as I recall them: > > Traditional Cranial Vault: 14 mm > > Cranial Vault: 8 mm > > Mid Face: 0 mm > > Skull Base: 3 mm > > Cephalic Index: 90% > > > > We are using CT (Doc Band), and they've been great. Wish we didn't wait until this late to meet them, but unfortunately we can't travel back in time and schedule an earlier appt.... > > > > I might have the cranial vault and traditional cranial vault numbers mixed up (reversed) above...... > > > > Fingers crossed, but realistic. Obviously a good chance our ending numbers will look similar to our beginning numbers, but who knows - maybe we'll be able to win the lottery and improve some of these numbers a mm or two......I'd be thrilled with that. > > > > Sr. > > Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2009 Report Share Posted July 6, 2009 Leila, I've noticed from your website posts, that you wet down Maysa's hair and put it in a pony tail for her pictures at CT. 's hair is not so thick and curly, but it is getting long and from the side, it will be difficult to see anything. Do they typically do this for the pictures or should a plan on bringing something to tie her hair back. Of course, lately she screams if I try to put it in a pony tail. She also hated the scanner so I'm thinking that she'll probably hate this less. I'm really hoping that CT's more holistic way of viewing the head will help me decide what to do. Wow - two pounds in a month? A growth spurt for is about 1 pound in 6 weeks, but she's smaller than most (23 pounds now). It's too bad that the growth spurt occurred after Maysa graduated, but it seems to me that the growth spurt we caught for in the helmet was between 15 and 16.5 months. 's feet have just grown and her size 6 shoes are getting snug. I'm wondering whether she's about to have a growth spurt herself. I'll let you know how the appointment goes. , mom to , 22 months Banding at 22 months> Plagiocephaly> Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 4:50 PM> > > > > > > > > Hello everyone,> > My wife and I just banded our son, Jr., at the beginning of June at the ripe old age of 22 months (21 months adjusted). He's loving his helmet (not trying to take it off or anything) and his twin sister (helmet-less) is (surprisingly) not trying to remove it, either. Weather's been cool - no issues with sweating or smell almost one week in.> > Anyway, long story short, we made mistakes in the past (relying on others instead of ourselves) and are obviously late in the game. We have realistic expectations (realizing it is very likely we'll get no change due to the late age). > > Here are 's initial stats, as I recall them:> Traditional Cranial Vault: 14 mm> Cranial Vault: 8 mm> Mid Face: 0 mm> Skull Base: 3 mm> Cephalic Index: 90%> > We are using CT (Doc Band), and they've been great. Wish we didn't wait until this late to meet them, but unfortunately we can't travel back in time and schedule an earlier appt....> > I might have the cranial vault and traditional cranial vault numbers mixed up (reversed) above......> > Fingers crossed, but realistic. Obviously a good chance our ending numbers will look similar to our beginning numbers, but who knows - maybe we'll be able to win the lottery and improve some of these numbers a mm or two......I'd be thrilled with that.> > Sr.> Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted)> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Another update, as I am guessing a few of you with older children are curious about our progress: Jr. had another CT meeting on 7/13/09 (now about 5 1/2 weeks since starting the helmet). In the 5 1/2 weeks, his head has grown 3 mm (not bad for his age, but about what a younger child (say 6 months) probably gets in a week). Visually, everyone thought his head looked more proportional in terms of length/width (got a bit longer, and any growth in width seemed to be in areas that were not the widest portion). Forehead might be looking a little more even, but hard to tell. They did some more shavings, and also told us not to tighten the DOC band as much as we were - oops! Overall, pleased with the progress thus far considering the age. Sr. Jr. - 23 months old - Doc Band 6/3/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) PS: CT measurements at start were 14 mm vault assymetry, 90% cephalic index (Skull base and mid-face measure normal at 3 mm and 0 mm assymetry). Starscanner (SS) measurements (taken a month or so prior to CT and helmet initiation) were 8 mm vault assymetry and 92% cephalic index. Differential in vault assymetry measurements between CT and SS might be (my guess) due to SS taking the measurements at a predetermined/automatic spot (+/- 30 degrees at section 3) whereas CT takes it at the flattest spot (not necessarily the same spot SS would)? > > > > > > > > > From: mathison039 <mathison039@> > > > Subject: Banding at 22 months > > > Plagiocephaly > > > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 4:50 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > My wife and I just banded our son, Jr., at the beginning of June at the ripe old age of 22 months (21 months adjusted). He's loving his helmet (not trying to take it off or anything) and his twin sister (helmet-less) is (surprisingly) not trying to remove it, either. Weather's been cool - no issues with sweating or smell almost one week in. > > > > > > Anyway, long story short, we made mistakes in the past (relying on others instead of ourselves) and are obviously late in the game. We have realistic expectations (realizing it is very likely we'll get no change due to the late age). > > > > > > Here are 's initial stats, as I recall them: > > > Traditional Cranial Vault: 14 mm > > > Cranial Vault: 8 mm > > > Mid Face: 0 mm > > > Skull Base: 3 mm > > > Cephalic Index: 90% > > > > > > We are using CT (Doc Band), and they've been great. Wish we didn't wait until this late to meet them, but unfortunately we can't travel back in time and schedule an earlier appt.... > > > > > > I might have the cranial vault and traditional cranial vault numbers mixed up (reversed) above...... > > > > > > Fingers crossed, but realistic. Obviously a good chance our ending numbers will look similar to our beginning numbers, but who knows - maybe we'll be able to win the lottery and improve some of these numbers a mm or two......I'd be thrilled with that. > > > > > > Sr. > > > Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 , Glad to hear that things seem to be looking better. Will you at any point take your son back to Orthomerica to get his head rescanned? Maybe at the end of treatment with CT? Leila, Maysa, 17.5 mo, DOC band Grad 5.29.09 www.mymaysa.wordpress.com From: mathison039 <mathison039@...>Subject: Re: Banding at 22 monthsPlagiocephaly Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 11:46 AM Another update, as I am guessing a few of you with older children are curious about our progress: Jr. had another CT meeting on 7/13/09 (now about 5 1/2 weeks since starting the helmet). In the 5 1/2 weeks, his head has grown 3 mm (not bad for his age, but about what a younger child (say 6 months) probably gets in a week). Visually, everyone thought his head looked more proportional in terms of length/width (got a bit longer, and any growth in width seemed to be in areas that were not the widest portion). Forehead might be looking a little more even, but hard to tell. They did some more shavings, and also told us not to tighten the DOC band as much as we were - oops! Overall, pleased with the progress thus far considering the age. Sr. Jr. - 23 months old - Doc Band 6/3/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) PS: CT measurements at start were 14 mm vault assymetry, 90% cephalic index (Skull base and mid-face measure normal at 3 mm and 0 mm assymetry). Starscanner (SS) measurements (taken a month or so prior to CT and helmet initiation) were 8 mm vault assymetry and 92% cephalic index. Differential in vault assymetry measurements between CT and SS might be (my guess) due to SS taking the measurements at a predetermined/ automatic spot (+/- 30 degrees at section 3) whereas CT takes it at the flattest spot (not necessarily the same spot SS would)? > > > > > > > > > From: mathison039 <mathison039@ > > > > Subject: Banding at 22 months > > > Plagiocephaly > > > Date: Tuesday, June 9, 2009, 4:50 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone, > > > > > > My wife and I just banded our son, Jr., at the beginning of June at the ripe old age of 22 months (21 months adjusted). He's loving his helmet (not trying to take it off or anything) and his twin sister (helmet-less) is (surprisingly) not trying to remove it, either. Weather's been cool - no issues with sweating or smell almost one week in. > > > > > > Anyway, long story short, we made mistakes in the past (relying on others instead of ourselves) and are obviously late in the game. We have realistic expectations (realizing it is very likely we'll get no change due to the late age). > > > > > > Here are 's initial stats, as I recall them: > > > Traditional Cranial Vault: 14 mm > > > Cranial Vault: 8 mm > > > Mid Face: 0 mm > > > Skull Base: 3 mm > > > Cephalic Index: 90% > > > > > > We are using CT (Doc Band), and they've been great. Wish we didn't wait until this late to meet them, but unfortunately we can't travel back in time and schedule an earlier appt.... > > > > > > I might have the cranial vault and traditional cranial vault numbers mixed up (reversed) above...... > > > > > > Fingers crossed, but realistic. Obviously a good chance our ending numbers will look similar to our beginning numbers, but who knows - maybe we'll be able to win the lottery and improve some of these numbers a mm or two......I'd be thrilled with that. > > > > > > Sr. > > > Jr. - Doc Band 6/09 at 22 months (21 adjusted) > > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Leila, Great question. I think, if my child was younger, I would be all for getting another scan from Orthoamerica at the end of treatment, just to doubly confirm things and determine if I wanted to pursue further banding steps. But being in the advanced age scenario my son is in, as long as I can see some visual improvement (as we already have) and the CT manual numbers improve even minimally to confirm what we see, I will feel like I got more in this process than I expected and will be happy with the results and happy CT gave us a chance when no one else would. (No matter what happens, in fact, I will be happy CT gave us a chance). Getting an Orthoamerica scan at completion might confirm the change. But if it contradicted the visual changes as well as the hopefully improved CT measurements, I would feel kinda (ok, REALLY) bad. And he'd be over 24 months adjusted anyway, so nothing I'd be able to do about it. So I think I'll pass on getting such a scan at the end. Sr. Jr. - 22.5 months old adjusted - Doc Band 6/3/09 at 21 months adjusted > > , > > Glad to hear that things seem to be looking better. Will you at any point take your son back to Orthomerica to get his head rescanned? Maybe at the end of treatment with CT? > > Leila, > Maysa, 17.5 mo, DOC band Grad 5.29.09 > www.mymaysa.wordpress.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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