Re: Had anybody ever been cured using SCD?

[Guest guest]

At 03:50 PM 2/4/2010, you wrote:

By cured I mean gone back to a

starchy ( " normal " ) diet without recurrence of symptoms. Any

first-hand experiences?

Well, first of all, I don't think a starchy diet is at all normal.

Starchy diets became the norm about fifty years ago -- oddly, about the

time the numbers of people with IBD went up.

Dr. Haas felt that the earlier dietary intervention was started, the more

likely a person was to be able to return to a more usual diet -- but by

usual diet, he wasn't talking about a diet which has sugar and starch in

everything instead of healthy fats.

For those of us like myself, who didn't find SCD until I was almost 50,

I'll probably always have to be careful. Does it bother me? Not a bit --

I like the food I make much better than that processed cr@p.

—

Marilyn

New

Orleans, Louisiana, USA

Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

Darn Good SCD Cook

No Human Children

Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

[Guest guest]

> Yes I realize a starchy diet is not necessarily normal which is why I put in

quotes. I suppose it more depends on whom you ask. However, most people go

through life eating all types of starches without experiencing severe bowel

problems like the people on this list. My question was has anybody ever gone

back to a diet that at least resembled what they ate before they got sick?

Well, it gets complicated, because for many of us this is a genetic

susceptibility.

So that, if we went back to the same diet, we would most likely, over time, in

the

natural course of thing when you start ingesting more and more of it and your

brain starts fooling you into thinking it won't effect you *now*, end up in the

same place. This isn't true for everyone though.

Also, the younger you are when you begin the diet and the more recent your

symptoms, the more likelihood of complete healing.

> In BTVC, Elaine at the end of Ch. 9 says there may be a time (after say 1 or 2

years strictly on the diet) where you can reintroduce forbidden foods one at a

time. So my question is simple, has anybody actually ever reached this stage of

being able to bring back illegal foods into their diet???

Yep, lots of people, most of whom are no longer on the list. Because they

don't need it anymore.

Some people never get beyond certain intolerances that they figure out on

the diet, but can eat more normally otherwise.

The thing is though Elaine wasn't envisaging going back to a pure SADiet.

WIth its tons of processed wheats and sugars - because that is a diet that

will tend to put you back in the same place.

I read something interesting yesterday from Pollen, where he made

the point that nowadays junk food is so accessible, it's no problem

acquiring it - whereas in the past, something like french fries would be very

time consuming to make by hand, so you would not have an overabundance of it -

and might eat it only on rare occasions. That's a healthy approach - the

problem with the modern diet is that you can easily obtain it, if you wish,

3 meals a day, or even once a day - very inexpensively. And that's when

diet becomes problematic - because it is not balanced as a rare

treat. And it tends to feed the kind of bacterial problems all of us have.

Mara

[Guest guest]

I believe Elaine’s daughter was able to go back to eating

some illegals – she still cannot eat rice though. In her case Elaine was

able to intervene with the SCD when her daughter was a young child. So it makes

sense to me that the earlier the dietary intervention, the more quickly the gut

heals, perhaps enabling one to eat illegals eventually.

For someone like myself, whose body was ravaged by nearly 2 decades

of D and malabsorption before I found the SCD, I may never be able to eat

illegals.

Most people who have a bowel disease do not produce the enzymes

necessary to break apart di- and polysaccharides. I don’t think my body

will ever produce those enzymes – who knows? And there is no supplement

for that (I don’t think).

So again, the longer your body has had to deal with all the

problems accompanying a bowel disease, the longer it will take your body to

heal, and possibly dictate whether you will be able to eat illegals again, IMO.

I don’t know if I am cured of Crohn’s but I consider myself in

remission. And that is an awesome improvement for someone who had 15 – 20

B’dy bm’s/day before finding the SCD.

Carol

CD 22 yrs SCD 5 yrs

From:

BTVC-SCD [mailto:BTVC-SCD ] On Behalf Of Bruce

Yes I realize a starchy diet is not necessarily

normal which is why I put in quotes. I suppose it more depends on whom you ask.

However, most people go through life eating all types of starches without

experiencing severe bowel problems like the people on this list. My question

was has anybody ever gone back to a diet that at least resembled what they ate

before they got sick?

In BTVC, Elaine at the end of Ch. 9 says there may be a time (after say 1 or 2

years strictly on the diet) where you can reintroduce forbidden foods one at a

time. So my question is simple, has anybody actually ever reached this stage of

being able to bring back illegal foods into their diet???

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce,

Based on the advice of our doctor, my son and I have been on SCD for a month and a half, but I know a lot of people that have adopted the SCD food plan over the years because of this doctor's recommendations. From my personal conversations with many of them, they felt so much better on SCD that they never wanted to go back to the "normal" high starch, high sugar American diet. In our case, the doctor's office recommends that we be very strict on SCD for the first 3 months, then slowly start introducing other foods (i.e. illegals). Many of the people I've talked with explained that a few months of strict SCD changed their perspective on healthy eating to the point that they continue to make their own yogurt, use almond flour instead of white flour, and avoid starchy foods like potatoes and rice. It doesn't mean that they're still SCD, because they consume a lot of "illegals." Of course, none

of the people I've talked with have IBD, celiac, crohn's, or other diagnosis (which obviously take much longer to heal). But the ones I know clearly believe that a few months of strict SCD made a significant difference in their health to the point that they've adopted many of the principles into their normal diet afterwards. They have a much greater awareness of their physial bodies and the effect that food choices have on physical well-being. In all of these cases, they've adopted SCD simply to clear the gut pathogens, re-establish good pathology in the gut, and encourage cleansing. They have benefited with greater energy levels, less brain fog, fewer digestive or toxicity problems, and greater overall health. Most of these people are also not on BTVC, pecanbread or any other internet message board for SCD, they simply follow the BTVC book and call the doctor's office, a friend, or call a

local SCD food provider (Jan from foodlady.com) if they have questions.

In my opinion, if you're talking to people on BTVC that read 1800 emails per month (or pecanbread at 2800 emails per month), you're obviously talking to folks that have much more serious gut issues. These wonderful people are much more involved, advocate absolute strict adherence to BTVC to get optimal results, and would naturally take longer to heal than the people I've been talking to. This yahoo group serves a purpose to educate and support people as we make a huge paradign shift in our beliefs and approach to food, cooking, and healthy eating. Once folks make that shift they probably would not invest the time and effort to read the massive number of emails every month.

So, yes, I know lots of people that have done SCD to overcome specific issues and reached a point that they can reintroduce forbidden foods, but you probably wouldn't find a lot of those folks on the BTVC yahoo group because they've moved on. SCD is a very individual process and no one can tell you how long it will take for you.

Sorry I got so long-winded, but I hope this helps answer your question.

mom to , 18, cancer survivor with gut issues

To: BTVC-SCD Sent: Fri, February 5, 2010 8:34:54 AMSubject: Re: Had anybody ever been cured using SCD?

Yes I realize a starchy diet is not necessarily normal which is why I put in quotes. I suppose it more depends on whom you ask. However, most people go through life eating all types of starches without experiencing severe bowel problems like the people on this list. My question was has anybody ever gone back to a diet that at least resembled what they ate before they got sick? In BTVC, Elaine at the end of Ch. 9 says there may be a time (after say 1 or 2 years strictly on the diet) where you can reintroduce forbidden foods one at a time. So my question is simple, has anybody actually ever reached this stage of being able to bring back illegal foods into their diet???

[Guest guest]

I think one thing to keep in mind is the difference in our food supply since Dr.

Haas was alive, and Elaine first implemented his diet. We have far more food

corruption than he aver dealt with. Some of us will never tolerate that.

One thing about SCD is that it brings you back to food at its basic.

Personally, I know I will never return to my pre SCD diet. My hope though, is to

tolerate illegals enough to be able to travel and eat at friends' houses without

worry. I don't miss rice, pasta, bread or potatoes one bit.

As you stay on SCD and feel better, you really do adjust to a healthy way of

eating.

PJ

>

> > Yes I realize a starchy diet is not necessarily normal which is why I put in

quotes. I suppose it more depends on whom you ask. However, most people go

through life eating all types of starches without experiencing severe bowel

problems like the people on this list. My question was has anybody ever gone

back to a diet that at least resembled what they ate before they got sick?

>

> Well, it gets complicated, because for many of us this is a genetic

susceptibility.

> So that, if we went back to the same diet, we would most likely, over time, in

the

> natural course of thing when you start ingesting more and more of it and your

> brain starts fooling you into thinking it won't effect you *now*, end up in

the

> same place. This isn't true for everyone though.

>

> Also, the younger you are when you begin the diet and the more recent your

> symptoms, the more likelihood of complete healing.

>

>

>

> > In BTVC, Elaine at the end of Ch. 9 says there may be a time (after say 1 or

2 years strictly on the diet) where you can reintroduce forbidden foods one at a

time. So my question is simple, has anybody actually ever reached this stage of

being able to bring back illegal foods into their diet???

>

>

> Yep, lots of people, most of whom are no longer on the list. Because they

> don't need it anymore.

>

> Some people never get beyond certain intolerances that they figure out on

> the diet, but can eat more normally otherwise.

>

> The thing is though Elaine wasn't envisaging going back to a pure SADiet.

> WIth its tons of processed wheats and sugars - because that is a diet that

> will tend to put you back in the same place.

>

> I read something interesting yesterday from Pollen, where he made

> the point that nowadays junk food is so accessible, it's no problem

> acquiring it - whereas in the past, something like french fries would be very

> time consuming to make by hand, so you would not have an overabundance of it -

> and might eat it only on rare occasions. That's a healthy approach - the

> problem with the modern diet is that you can easily obtain it, if you wish,

> 3 meals a day, or even once a day - very inexpensively. And that's when

> diet becomes problematic - because it is not balanced as a rare

> treat. And it tends to feed the kind of bacterial problems all of us have.

>

> Mara

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Yep, lots of people, most of whom are no longer on the list. Because they

> don't need it anymore.

>

>

> Mara

>

Do you know what illegal foods they were able to reintroduce? (besides Elaine's

daughter).

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

>>

>> Yep, lots of people, most of whom are no longer on the list. Because they

>> don't need it anymore.

>>

>

>>

>> Mara

>>

>

>

> Do you know what illegal foods they were able to reintroduce? (besides

Elaine's daughter).

Maple syrup, sweet potato, freshly made (not packaged) corn chips, matzoh, soy

sauce,

potatoes, bread. Etc.

Is there one or two you are particularly curious about?

BTW, I'm not sure this is the best approach to SCD. If you keep on

staring at that point down the road where you can reintroduce illegals,

it's bound to be a very long and frustrating ride.

Once your taste buds adjust, there is a lot of great food on SCD - and

it is all homemade. It's a lot of work - but that is not cataclysmic.

Mara

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce-

The person who told us about this diet recently emailed to tell me that her husband has added things back in - a Mcs meal, potatoes, etc. and has seemed to do fine. He had been on the diet for several years before this, however. Heidi, husband CD, SCD 11/08

To: BTVC-SCD From: brucen32@...Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 14:34:54 +0000Subject: Re: Had anybody ever been cured using SCD?

Yes I realize a starchy diet is not necessarily normal which is why I put in quotes. I suppose it more depends on whom you ask. However, most people go through life eating all types of starches without experiencing severe bowel problems like the people on this list. My question was has anybody ever gone back to a diet that at least resembled what they ate before they got sick? In BTVC, Elaine at the end of Ch. 9 says there may be a time (after say 1 or 2 years strictly on the diet) where you can reintroduce forbidden foods one at a time. So my question is simple, has anybody actually ever reached this stage of being able to bring back illegal foods into their diet???> > >By cured I mean gone back to a starchy > >("normal") diet without recurrence of symptoms. Any first-hand experiences?> > Well, first of all, I don't think a starchy diet > is at all normal. Starchy diets became the norm > about fifty years ago -- oddly, about the time > the numbers of people with IBD went up.> > Dr. Haas felt that the earlier dietary > intervention was started, the more likely a > person was to be able to return to a more usual > diet -- but by usual diet, he wasn't talking > about a diet which has sugar and starch in everything instead of healthy fats.> > For those of us like myself, who didn't find SCD > until I was almost 50, I'll probably always have > to be careful. Does it bother me? Not a bit -- I > like the food I make much better than that processed cr@p.> > > > — Marilyn> New Orleans, Louisiana, USA> Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001> Darn Good SCD Cook> No Human Children> Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund>

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.

[Guest guest]

>

> By cured I mean gone back to a starchy ( " normal " ) diet without recurrence of

symptoms. Any first-hand experiences?

I started the SCD 25 months ago for Crohn's disease. I improved markedly in the

first year- put on 13 pounds of weight in the first 3 months, and my blood

values except one returned to normal within 6 months. After a year on the SCD, I

kind of morphed my diet into a grain-free, low-carb diet. Now, two years out, my

(extremely skeptical GI) is telling me to stay on the diet, and come back and

see him in a year instead of the usual 6 months.

I find I am able to consume some grains- like rice, but I do that very rarely.

Other grains, like wheat, are probably very bad for me, and a single drop of

Bragg's Amino Acids (fermented soy) caused the disease to return instantly-

albeit painlessly- with blood and D for a single day, and never come back.

The reason this diet takes so long to take hold is that several things have to

occur:

1) The dysbiosis in the gut has to break up, and the mucosa has to heal. This

allows the body to separate the proteins *inside* the gut from the body's immune

system. This means getting rid of the undesirable bacteria (probably klebsiella,

which LOVE carbohydrates, although I can't rule out candida playing a role), and

getting rid of the lectins (found in seeds- like grains- and cause the

semi-permeable membrane of the gut to become more permeable and less selective).

2) The body has to slowly " damp down " the inflammatory immune response, backing

down on the quantity and type of antibodies produced to antigens- in this case,

probably antigens to Klebsiella pneumoniae, which look like certain types of

collagen- the reason the intestines are attacked in IBD, as they have lots of

collagen after all. Once the antigens (the bits that " leak " though the damaged

intestinal mucosa) are removed from the system, the B cells and T cells back off

on producing the antibodies. This takes several years.

Look at it as a " vaccination. " With Crohn's (and probably ulcerative colitis),

the body has been " vaccinated " against Klebsiella pneumoniae. Unfortunately,

that vaccine cross-reacts with the body's own collagen, and that's bad juju when

the antigen-producing organism lives in a tissue largely made of collagen, and

that tissue is now " leaky. " Net upshot: autoimmune attack on the collegsn of the

intestines.

Like a vaccination, eventually it will wear off- provided the individual is not

" re-vaccinated " by the bacterial proteins again. For rabies, it lasts about 3

years. For tetanus, 10 years or so. For some types of influenza, it may last a

lifetime.

So, you have to fix up the gut, and then sit this one out, waiting for the B

cells to stop producing antibodies to the klebsiella.

Note that a certain type of chemotherapy for multiple sclerosis has been

developed called Campath (from Cambridge Pathology Lab). It goes in, nukes the B

cells, and your body loses track of what it's supposed to make antibodies to.

Presumably Campath gets rid of B cells that produce some antibody to some

bacterium that sufficiently resembles human myelin that MS is the result of

autoimmune attack based on this confusion. Get rid of the B cells, stop

producing the antibodies, and the disease goes away- until the host is

re-sensitized because the underlying problem- the bacterium- is still there, and

the disease comes back in a few months.

Similarly, B-cell ablation therapies will probably be announced as effective in

Crohn's disease for the same reason. Unfortunately, the disease will come back,

and you'll need a shot every 6 months or whatever. But- if combined with a

grain-free, low-carb diet, it is conceivable that B-cell ablation might be able

to clear up the disease once and for all- provided the host is able to refrain

from gorging on starch and sugar once they are no longer sensitized.

You read it here first, folks.

[Guest guest]

Terry,

Thanks for your input and please keep us posted on your progress. Your history

is similar to mine. After a bout of D I was told I had " mild UC " also at

midlife. I did exactly what you did- look for diets and after reading BTVC it

made complete sense to me.

I would be interested in the results of your colonoscopy. I have no plans for

trying illegals anytime soon. I don't miss them.

PJ

>

> Bruce,

>

> I always hesitate to write about this because I think a newbie will think it's

OK to eat illegals. It's not.

>

> Everyone is different. I came down with mild disease ( UC--which I found out

later was procto-sigmoiditis which is less involved than UC that affects the

whole colon) late in life( mid-life). I immediately found SCD by googling 'diet

and UC'.I have a strong background in Biochemistry, Nutrition and Organic

Chemistry . The book made so much sense. I followed SCD to the letter ( Of

course I made mistakes as we all do) and I was taking Lialda. Within 3 months I

was in remission. After one year, I weaned off my Lialda and started LDN, still

on SCD. I was lucky because I was an experienced cook and I didn't find SCD

hard, just time consuming and not always convenient. I didn't find this list

until I was approx 6 months into the diet.

>

> I then started to try different illegals and found I tolerated them. I found

that I cannot eat the same illegal several days in a row. I still eat my yogurt

every day ( and I love it) and I still make sure that I read all labels and

follow SCD as much as possible, because I prefer it. I pick and choose my

illegals on personal preference. I cannot tolerate milk, 'though I was never

lactose intolerant prior to being diagnosed. Eating out is much easier for me

now. I had one mild flare recently and went back to eating strict SCD and taking

my Lialda. I recovered in 3 days. I think the SCD has enriched my life.

>

> A cure means absence of any disease. I will find this out next year when I

have a colonoscopy. If I still have inflammation in my bowel, I will not be

discouraged. With SCD I know I have the tools to stay in remission and have a

full life. It's not about being able to eat illegals, it's about your quality of

life. With the incredible variety of food and recipes on SCD, the quality of

life is wonderful. I prefer the taste of my mayo to commercial. I love my home

made tomato sauce with home made sausage. We all make choices and I choose to

make and grow my own food for my health, and the health of my family. With time,

you get into a routine of cooking that works for you. I get busy and don't

always get to cook everything, and that's OK, too. I don't always have time for

the list, but I like to poke my head in once in awhile.

>

> If you're asking this question, it might be because you're not happy with what

you're eating. I encourage you to try some of the many on-line recipes or buy

some of the cookbooks and ask on this list for recipe help. There are so many

capable, friendly people willing to help, you will never feel alone. There is

never any reason to feel deprived, either.

>

>

> Terry

>

[Guest guest]

How are we infected with Klebsiella? Can one be tested for it? I

find this very interesting. I knew about MAP, but not what you described.

Thanks.

Carol

CD 22 yrs SCD 5 yrs

From:

BTVC-SCD [mailto:BTVC-SCD ] On Behalf Of ahicks51

So, you have to fix up the gut, and then sit this one out,

waiting for the B cells to stop producing antibodies to the klebsiella.

[Guest guest]

This is true. I suspect that if we went back a hundred years, when food

was real food, and as Mara says, treats had to be laboriously prepared,

they really didn't hurt one very much. My mother used to describe my

Grandmother making a cake for a birthday or something. First she

would have to get out the nuts, which were in the shell. She had to shell

them and pick out the little pieces of shell. Raisins would have to be

soaked and debris picked out. Then she had to get a bowl and beat

the butter and sugar by hand, which took plenty of time. She would

beat the egg yolks in slowly. And so on. If the cake involved

beaten egg whites, she beat them with a whisk on her largest turkey

platter (which always sounded dangerous to me, why not a huge bowl? but

that's the way she did it). It would take all morning to make that

cake so of course it didn't happen very often.

I read something interesting yesterday from Pollen, where he

made

the point that nowadays junk food is so accessible, it's no problem

acquiring it - whereas in the past, something like french fries would

be very

time consuming to make by hand, so you would not have an

overabundance of it - and might eat it only on rare occasions. That's a healthy approach -

the

problem with the modern diet is that you can easily obtain it, if you

wish,

3 meals a day, or even once a day - very inexpensively. And that's

when diet becomes problematic - because it is not balanced as a rare treat. And it tends to feed the kind of bacterial problems all of us

have.

Mara

[Guest guest]

I found SCD about 14 years ago after being diagnosed with Crohns and followed it religiously for about 6-7years, long after all my symptoms disappeared. I kept on it when I felt like hell, because there were no other options out there besides such awful meds. It turned out that I had Crohns under control earlier than I thought because the meds had severe side effects that mimiced the disease. This focus on when one can resume illegal foods is counterproductive. Why waste your time thinking about rewarding your recovery with things that have poisoned you over the years? Why not spend your time envisioning the healthy person you will become with adherence to SCD whenever you feel deprived ?

I admit I am not on SCD completely now, but it is always in my mind when I allow illegals into my diet and I feel GUILTY. I signed up on the list again just to keep myself focused on healthy eating.

Re: Re: Had anybody ever been cured using SCD?

At 08:34 AM 2/5/2010, you wrote:

In BTVC, Elaine at the end of Ch. 9 says there may be a time (after say 1 or 2 years strictly on the diet) where you can reintroduce forbidden foods one at a time. So my question is simple, has anybody actually ever reached this stage of being able to bring back illegal foods into their diet???Yes. Elaine's daughter did, although she chooses to eat about 80-90% SCD.Yes. My niece did, after 2-3 years, although she eats gluten-free, and tries to keep the starch to a minimum.Yes. The lady who was my mentor did, after several years.Yes. Lots of people, who are now no longer on an SCD list because either (a) they have SCD down pat and have gotten on with their lives because IBD no longer rules their existence, or, ( they have SCD down pat, have been able to add a few non-SCD foods back into their menus, and have gotten on with their lives because IBD no longer rules their existence.Me? I have SCD down pat, but I stay to teach. (And I'm tremendously grateful to our other long time people who help. And sometimes have better answers than I do!)

— Marilyn New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001 Darn Good SCD Cook No Human Children Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

[Guest guest]

I did hire a personal chef. She shopped for the groceries, spent 6 hours

cooking, and left me with 10 SCD meals (each for a family of 4)in the freezer.

It did cost me $300 for her time, but when I think of food as medicine, it made

me feel better about the expense. I like cooking, but I was feeling overwhelmed,

and this will give me some breathing room.

Calypso

> >Thanks for the responses. Just for information's

> >sake, I'm not a newbie, I've been off and on SCD

> >for a few years now. I know it works. But all of

> >the cooking and preparation is frustrating. I'm

> >a single guy. Boy do I need a wife. ) No offence ladies.

>

> Consider the thought of hiring a personal chef to

> prepare meals for you. Less expensive than eating

> out. Gives you the ability to stay on the diet.

>

>

> — Marilyn

> New Orleans, Louisiana, USA

> Undiagnosed IBS since 1976, SCD since 2001

> Darn Good SCD Cook

> No Human Children

> Shadow & Sunny Longhair Dachshund

>

[Guest guest]

I blame Mexico, too, for the start of going downhill. Even my DH and his

stainless steel gut got sick in Mexico!

And of course, UC has a genetic aspect to it - that you got as

another inheritance

from your parents DNA.

Personally I blame Mexico, not that it does me any good. <g>